Monday, May 24, 2010

Jewish History 101 (Or "Advanced Polemics" 101)


.......דער וואס דארף פרעגן איז א שאד די צייט

I thank the anonymous sender of this document.

I bring this here piece of history not to condemn or to point fingers at my brothers and sisters, but rather for its historical value. To share with you interesting episodes of our past. Someone asked why we call this Jewish History 101, rather than really important Jewish events like the Holocaust, the State of Israel, the Spanish Expulsion of 1492, and so forth. The truth is that in our little world Jewish History is Satmar v. Lubavitch, Belz v. Bobov, Satmar v. Klausenberg, and so on. Current events is Satmar court battles, Bobov 48 and 45, Ponovizh, and maybe the Rubashkin trial. History is what we like to discuss and what we care about. Everything else is to be left to a few historians who write books and know nothing about REAL Jewish life....

28 comments:

browser said...

as they say,''the more things change the more they stay the same''
this reminds me what reb'yisroel eichler'wrote in the Machne Hachreidi 10 yrs ago,when the two satmar brothers started their fights in the secular courts,he wrote that those who know the satmar history,know that the rebbe was forced upon the residents of Satmar against their will,and his followers used the Goyishe courts and the police to have the rebbe become rav in satmar,therefore isn't it ironic that Satmar chasidus started out and was born through the goyishe courts,and 65 yrs later is being finished off in the goyishe courts
CHAIM

Josh said...

Why is this 101 and not advanced polemics?

101 should be like, the Shoah, the state, Hurban, 1492, Haskalah, the Shtetl, American Jewry etc.

Anonymous said...

Josh
its the shtetel

Anonymous said...

What he means is 101 should not be obscure shtetl feuds. The only reason this fight is still going on is because all the safe outlets are assur.

schneur said...

I bought the bound volume of this newspaper when the Belzer republished it in about 1988. We also have it in MGL at YU.And one is welcome to read it here at MGL.
Its most interesting in its coverage of Jewsih life in Transylvania. But Tzig its hardly oblective the editor Reb Pollack was a Spinker Chasid and Spinka was involved ina running battle with Rav Yoel. It may have started in Krole with rav Avisheland rabbi Gross or perhaps it goes back.
So the newspaper is a fine primary source for study, but clearly as a stand alone means nothing more than a Tchikave zach..

Anonymous said...

Schneur
wasn't rezmivech the editor?
he was later the editor of the Sheorim of Poalie and the beautiful sefer Hogas Beparshious Hatorah under the name Nachshoni

Anonymous said...

Reb Chaim
The point is his fight against Zionisim was a other method to conquer by delegitimizing all his competitors in a "torah" way. Before Hitler he didn"t have that tool, it was simple Titelbaum tribal turf fights.

Anonymous said...

Tzig !!
for historic value would you post my document how someone has ordered the elimination of his sister in law because a few lousy books that are now rotting away

Anonymous said...

I see you joined a group that can"t agree whom to elect for any form of leadership, every one does what he wants from frei to less frei, but satmer has split into a few powerful groups with coordinated leadership and are being guided as individual kehilos competing in frumkeit and you had to dig up ""interesting episodes of our past"",but don't dare to write about the current fighting in crown heights and in every lubab community,
true ahavas yisroel real derech habesht

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anonymous 2:56pm

You get that non-existent document and I'll get you the document where a certain Rebbetzin eliminated her stepdaughter, OK?

Anonymous said...

ano,
the bottom line that the Jews in CH with the Bent Down Hitten went to a din torah and solved it pretty quick, and the Kehilla that competes on Frimkiet is in court on a international scale for the last 20 years with splintering up to 4 Kehilas, and 3 cemeteries. Having 2 Rebbe with white Kaftans is not a halacha in Shulchan orech especially if the Beshi is "Nishtakche" but going in court is Marim yad Betoras Moshe according to Shulchan Orech.Its a bigger sin then fighting for a Hospital expansion on a Gentile cemetery to proof the point today with Shmidel, Shlezinger etc... it was always a farce and now we all see it Borech Hashem

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
your post of 3:20 does not belong here

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

thanks, anonymous. it was moved.

Josh said...

Hirshel dearest, why don't you go read some Scholem, and maybe some Gershon Hundert or Stanislawski and then tell us what you think the story of E European Jews and modernity is about?

The Bray of Fundie said...

Someone asked why we call this Jewish History 101, rather than really important Jewish events like the Holocaust, the State of Israel, the Spanish Expulsion of 1492, and so forth. The truth is that in our little world Jewish History is Satmar v. Lubavitch, Belz v. Bobov, Satmar v. Klausenberg, and so on.

Is this history? Or just old, regugitated Lashon Hara that's נותן טעם לפגם outlived its shelf life and because it's sp old and stale?

Current events is Satmar court battles, Bobov 48 and 45, Ponovizh, and maybe the Rubashkin trial.

Unfortunately you're probably right on this one.

History is what we like to discuss and what we care about.

Maybe we should try cultivating our palates to learn to like other, arguably better, topics?

Everything else is to be left to a few historians who write books and know nothing about REAL Jewish life....

Real Jewish life, as you call it, did not spontaneously generate in a vacuum. maybe if we studied more serious consequential history we'd have a better grip on how our "current events" got to where they are.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
Eleanor Roosevelt

Anonymous said...

the Bray
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."
in todays Charidie their is a big figt going on on the " Ideas" by false description of "Events" of certain "People",its all intertwined.Their is a certain forceful group in the charadie hemisphere that cultivated a idea that everyone who don't adhere to their Philosophy is a heretic and their rabbinical certifiers will not use them for their Shochtim or Grapejuice purveyors.Its all based on a Idea of a certain personality,the consequences for the future is depending on that Person, was he 100% Lishmo that he was capable to make us all and our gedolim in to a Achov.. I believe that everything has to be on the open for us to decide

Anonymous said...

this is another proof how right Chaim Lieberman was in his KUNTERES
"THE REBBE IN DER SUTTEN"

chaim

Anonymous said...

Chaim
I heard about this Kuntres for years and years, and lately I heard from the Zali satmars that Satmarer Rov ZY"A called Liberman to secular court.Where is this available on line?

Richard said...

What does sutten mean.

Also, can all you anons please give yourself nicknames? It's very annoying.

Anonymous said...

Shlomo
Its ironic that every Shavacher Lubavich Girl finds a Satmar Shavacher boy, don't you think that this 2 Kehilas are even.The shock is that in satmar the facade covers up all the manure to give it the phony holy appearance with no Baal Teshuva and the most closed society, but the trash is their big time.

shalomm said...

hershel is happy, he finaly found an article that he was YEARNING for!!

schneur said...

History. What I find interesting is that before the War , the important jewish and orthodox settlements were Poland, Lithuania and to a lesser extent the Ukraine and greater Hungary.And thats true of Chassidus for sure the big rebbes were Ger, Aleksander, Bobov, belz, Lubavitch, who in lets say Bendin ever heard of the satmarer rebbe, who in Lodz heard of the Lisker rebbe ? Almost all important jewish movements be it the Mizrachi, Chassidius, Chabad, the Bund, Yiddishism, Labor zionism , Revisionism, the Brisker derech, Mussar etc etc started in these countries.
If you read most of the heimishe journals and books coming from the Orthodox press, you obtain the impression that Transylvania, marmorash and Germany(from reading about Germany in teh frum publications one would think that the country was the scene of an active and impt Orthodox communtiy on par with lets say Cracow or Kovna. In fact germany was like America a massive intermarriage and assimilation rate with a few bright spots but the survivors children wish to recreate the history there) were the impt centers of Jewish life with Reisen (hey who out there even knows where Reisen is ?), the Ukriane and Congress Poland being backwaters. as they say Olam hafuch.
The machlokesen that were impt were in Poland and Lithuania betwen Ger and Aleksander, the rabbanus in Radom, the rabbanus in Vilna and the Kehilla elections in places like Lodz and warsaw Warsaw's 250,000 Jews wa a larger community than all of Marmorash !
Let me conclude I just read some of Heshe Dubrovsky's final articles- memoirs about his zaide horav Mendel Dubrovsky. He was there he knew the rich Jewish life in White Russia and the Ukraine the shtetlech with their multi faceted jewish characters.When I read him and Chaim Grade its like reading about a different universe different people and I might add a different less materialsitic less ego centric judaism. Al ALita Ani boche. I will miss his writings and do hope his children uncover writings that were not published yet. Perhaps a committee should be formed to publish is writings( to raise the monetary resources to do so) in book form in Yiddish and perhaps also in Englsih for those who do not know Yiddish -yet. Such a volume would be very interesting for all Yotzei Russia and Chasidei Chabad.Zecher zaddik livrocha

Anonymous said...

sutten in yiddish means the devil

schneur said...

Chaim Lieberman . He should not be confused with the Rachal of Lubavitch . The Chaim Liebernman we are discussing was an early baal teshuva a writer for the Yiddish Forverts an a Jewish labor activist. He wrote several books about the silence of America Jewry during the 1939-45 period called Ven die velt hot gebrent.
He became a strictly frum jew and Reb Yankev K. had some great words about him.
His voluem Der rebbe und der satan was publishd in 2 editions a longer and shorter and there one sees how great men like Rav Hazaddik Henkin, the Kluizenberger, the Vishnitzer etc were treated by the group from SM. Their activities are described less than 10 years after the liberation in Auschwitz gevald. It seesm es hot fadrossen der Rebbe as Yidden hoben a bissel menuscha und hoben an makom miklet oder efser hot Der Rebbe gehalten as men darf bleiben in Ceausescu's gan eden oder in Kadar's paradise.
Its hard to get but if a serious person wants to republish it count me in.
Chaim Lieberman was a wonderful man.

Anon3 said...

Chaim Lieberman also wrote the book the "The Christianity Of Sholom Ash"which I read many years ago and was published in both Yiddish and English and was a fascinating read.I wonder if that book is still available?

Shloimie said...

Does any one know what newspaper Pollak is reffing to when he states the אשר יצר צעטל ?

Shloimie said...

The Transilvania Yiddish Tzietung is available online at http://www.archive.org/stream/TransilvaniaYiddishTzietung/Transilvania#page/n23/mode/2up.

spectator said...

I thought that there was another aspect of the appointment of reb Yoilish as Rav in Satmar, he arrived in town while Rabbi Greenwald was elderly, and Rabbi Greenwald had no children and facilitated the ro0le of Rav Yoilish. By the time the election came around rav Yoilish was somewhat entrenched. Incidentally when someone told Rav Yoilish that he was related to Rav Zanvil Jordan the rabbi of the status quo gemeinde in Satmar, Rav Yoilish responded: Ihr darft zich nisht sheimen, ehr hodt oich tzvei puhr teflin getroogen yeden tug! (You need not feel embarassed he also wore two pairs of tefilin every day.)