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Shturem
I knew Reb Moshe Zev Reicer. I know his daughters, and I know the son, Yoel, who's interviewed in the JEM video about to be released. I always heard from him that he knew the Rebbe in the Sorbonne, and that he was a "Koodesh VeTooher." Yet for some reason I never put 2 and 2 together when all this discussion about the Rebbe and Sorbonne was going on. I guess the Yetzer HoRah wanted us to believe what was being written on certain blogs, and what Menachem Friedman was saying and writing. It all seems so simple now. How could we have been so stupid as to believe a bunch of revisionists and wannabe historians 70 years later?! It's a simple "Efsher LeKayem Shney'hem!"
I too need to go to the Ohel and beg Mechillah.
46 comments:
We can go together, after we finish kicking tuches.
mechilah for what? for doubting that the Rebbe was in the Sorbonne??
Is it true that the Rebbe did not wear a kippa at the time?
Why mechila?
I dunno what you did; I don’t think there’s anything for me to ask mechila for on this specific issue.
But in case you want to revisit the good ol’ days...
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/tzemach/112346096787310294/#92150
Reb Yoel Reicer remembers:
ושם הוא פגש יהודי – הוא כלל לא ידע
מיהו האיש, שלאחר מכן היה לרבי מליובאוויטש. אבי היה אחוז התפעלות ממנו. הרבי היה נכנס ישירות להרצאה. הוא לא שוחח עם איש – נכנס, וברגע שההרצאה הסתיימה – יצא.
הנהגתו המיוחדת כבשה את אבי. אבי סיפר לי שהרבי שמר מאוד על עיניו, שלא יראו מראות שליליים. הוא לא שוחח כמעט עם איש, ואם דיבר עם מישהו, היה זה בקיצור נמרץ. ושם החל אבי להכיר אותו מעט. אבי היה בן-תורה בכל מאודו, והוא היה בחור עדיין. הוא כנראה מצא חן בעיני הרבי.
הרבי ניגש אליו פעם ואמר לו, "צריך לעשות משהו... מסתובבים כאן ילדים שאינם לומדים תורה בשום מקום. יש לעשות משהו על-מנת שיישארו יהודים. האם תהיה מוכן ללמד אותם שיעורים פרטיים?".
אבי הסכים. זה הביא תועלת גם לאבי, משום שהוא היה זקוק בינתיים לפרנסה... הרבי טיפל בעניין והביא אליו מפעם לפעם ילד מכאן, ילד משם. ומאוחר יותר, הוא לימד בלילה קבוצה שלמה של ילדים.
Mechillah for allowing others to doubt the Rebbe, and for myself wondering if the information ever did come from the Rebbe.
As far as the anonymous question regarding the Kippah: maybe we should ask the great Rabbi Hutner of blessed memory.......
>>As far as the anonymous question regarding the Kippah: maybe we should ask the great Rabbi Hutner of blessed memory.......
If I am not mistaken, the great Rav Hutner maintained that the Rebbe did not, in fact, wear a kippa in Berlin.
you're not mistaken.
what did he say about himself?!
The twists and turns of these people to get out of having to say "I was wrong" are incredible. Tzemach is almost comical in his apologetics.
I don't know. But provide the informaiton with a verifiable source please.
Perhaps where the Rebbe went to school is relevant when evaluating the weight to be accorded to his letters re: science.
Moron Tzemach is very sad He is going to erase all the comments that prove him wrong
All the pictures from the student files are without a yarmulke. Obviously the Rebbe did not walk 4 amos without kisui rosh.
I didn't know that attending Sorbonne is such a מעלה that you have to ask מחילה if it wasn't true. It happens to be that in the 1950s and 1960s, the main reason that people refused to accept the Lubavitcher Rebbe is because he was reputed to have attended the Sorbonne. (After that, there were other issues). If I'm not mistaken that's also why זקני אנ"ש preferred the רש"ג. Schneur can confirm if that's true or not.
ailimisher
zei nisht kan ferd, please.
You ask Mechillah for doubting the Rebbe, it doesn't matter where and what.
So let me get this:
You see a person who was accepted as leader of a group of old, prestigious, Mesiras Nefesh Yidden, descendants of great Chassidim and Tzaddikim, and YOU decide to Passel him because you suspect him of being influenced by the University he attended?!
You think maybe that's jumping the gun just a bit? couldn't you first see what the person is about before jumping to conclusions?
No wonder Hungarians have the reputation they do.........
Not that it has any meaning for me, didn't the Rebbe himself never bring up the Sorbonne thing - so those who "doubted" were just doubting the hagiographers, not himself ? At the end of the day, those who "doubted" him because he didn't go to Sorbonne aren't any better then those who doubted him for going there; moreover, those who doubted him quietly in their hearts and continued to speak contrary to their thoughts aren't much better but actually worse then those who spoke up.
About Tzig's answers to "ailimisher" - you seem to be unable to swing off your Hungarophobic fetish. Are you saying that "זקני אנ"ש" were "Hungarians" ? Or was the old Skvere Rebbe a "Hungarian" ? What do Hungarians have to with it, other then polluting the "Anash" ranks, as the proof is evident from this blog ?
Not to mention that Hungarians as a group, in general, were way, way more educated s
I think some of us are getting a bit carried away with this "new" information.
The study of history or biography in the academic sense - that is historiogrophy - is not predicated on the knowledge of small bits of fact. Rather it is the trourough analysis of the sugya involved. Thus if we were to discover that the rebbe attended Tomche Tmimmim for 6 months , it would change very little of how we perceive the rebbe's personality etc.
As far as Friedman goes, most of what he has written in several short articles in Hoartez are basically plagerized from Larger Than Life, and when I confronted him on this via e mail, he basically conceeded this to me and said he would correct this in future writings. Of course he has not done this.
Now as far as the author of Larger Than Life goes, , the gist of what he did is to be the first investigator to bother to discover what the rebbe studied in Berlin, what courses he took, who his instructors were , and which schools he attended.
This was never done in the host of official and semi official strories about the Rebbe.
The discovery of the Rebbe's name in the ledger only proves that he registered to go there. Uveken, where are the Chabad investigators ? What courses did he take , his grades, his teachers etc etc. And how did all these courses effect his world view of the Jews and the manner he perceived Chassiduth in distinction to his predecessors.
Nachalnikoff
I was referring to the notion that "people" refused to accept the Rebbe, not the "Ziknei Anash" line. I guess you drank your breakfast this morning, and this clouded your ability to see straight.
(You also are very ambivalent regarding Hungarians for some reason, first they pollute ou, then they become "very educated.")
I guess the pure White Russian race is for White Russians only, all others "pollute" it, eh?
The old Skverrer Rebbe was Romanian, take that for what it's worth.....
Also, I'm not sure which "Ziknei Anash" you mean when you say that. The fact remains that most of them supported the Rebbe, not Rashag.
I don't get what exactly mechila beten is needed for??Claiming the Rebbe had forgotten a toisfes?An offeneh gemoro?
Grow up.
Also, I don't like your 'answer' about Rav Hutner.Do you think disparaging a choshuver yid somehow raises the Rebbe?
All the kappel talk is probably nonsense since the Rebbes beard,quite uncommon at the time, gave away his being an Orthodox Jew.
Tzig,
"Ailemsher" notion was that "ziknei Anash preferred Rashag", because of his brother in law's secular education. For what it's worth, whether he's right or not, but that's what he said and you augmented that with how ridiculous you find that "people" can reject "a person who was accepted as leader of a group of old, prestigious, Mesiras Nefesh Yidden, descendants of great Chassidim and Tzaddikim" because of his education. Well, the "ailemsher" said that it was just those very people some of whom preferred Rashag. Not that I care.
Your own upfreg is a complete miney-ubey - suddenly, acceptance by a crowd serves as an endorsement , yichus becomes a decider and poor Hungarians are again at fault. I'm not ambivalent towards them; it's just your pathetic vindication of your own ilk serves as a self-fulfilling prophecy. They were very educated and enlightened, in secular sense - in same way as Yekkes and lehavdil german reform jews were. What's the stira between some of them being educated and others of them polluting ranks of Lubavich - a mostly uneducated, at least in secular sense, populace ?
And if you consider old Skverer Rebbe a Hungarian, you'll have to count Rayatz as a Poilisher and R"MM an Ukraenisher.
I'm sorry. My dense Hungarian didn't understand get that.
You also know nothing about Hungarians, that much is obvious.
If we speak of the Alter Skverrer let me ask you natchalnikoff:
why should we care what he thought of the Rebbe, one year his junior, not to mention - oh never mind........
Meileh the Satmar Rov, nu! but the Skverrer?!
Nice strategy, play dumb when have nothing to answer.
You shouldn't care who thought what of whom. But if you're calling Skverrer a Romanian, which you did, you should also call Rayatz a Poilisher and Ramam an Ukraenisher, or maybe even a Yakkisher.
But when you say how bad evil and stupid those people who didn't want to "accept" Rebbe were and go on to say how Hungarians have some sort of reputation, one can wonder - where did Hungarians get into the picture ? Neither Satmar, nor Pupa, nor any other kehillah can "accept" or not "accept" Rebbe who isn't theirs nor is shayack to them in any form or fashion (notwithstanding that some insist that this particular Rebbe is takeh shayach to everyone and is everybody's Rebbe, in which case don't you think that everyone SHOULD have a say?). Nor did they volunteer their opinion vocally in those times; AFAIK the only one who spoke up with a warning - to his chassidim - was the Skverrer Rebbe z"l, and they made up afterwards.
So which Hungarians were you referring to, and what reputation do they have that has to do with anything at hand ?
I see you have no idea of the previous Skverrer Rebbe's history.
answer this: what was he known as before he called himself Skverrer Rebbe? Two points for the right answer.
Schneur cannot confirm things or not, as he is a Choshud in these matters.
The issue of college had zero part in the sides taken. For 10 years people got to know him and saw this had no bearing. The issue was the respect they had for the mother-in-law, and who the mother-in-law wanted as Rebbe. It may have been misguided, but no one blamed them afterwards too much.
Do enlighten me, what's the Kingstoner girsa of Toldos Skvira. I'm unaware of him being anything other then the Skverer Rebbe from Călăraşi.
Guravitzer
What you say is not correct.Many Lubavitcher did not know the Rebbe at all! He had left immediately after his wedding and kept a low profile.The many chasidim who lived overseas,notably,Eretz Yisroel and France(after the war) did not know him at all.Lubavitchers were known as chnyokes and were quite wary of the Rebbes secular education, compounded with the fact that the younger son-in-law was totally not shayach (Horenstein)
Hagiography as usual.
I'm going to guess that the young uns such as the Hechts played a big role in the Rebbe taking over the nesius.He was after all, educated, knew English, had the mannerisms of a European gentleman.
Those "Bam Yam" knew him well, and they made sure to let others know that the choice of successor is crystal clear.
The Tzig again following the party line!
Can you stop being a robot, a blinded follower.
You are not old enough to know who know or who did not, you are just parroting what you were fed by equally ignorant 'mashpiim'.
I already subscribe to Kfar Chabad mag, I don't need your parroting of the same rubbish.
right
and you were a maggot on the wall of the Kerestirer Mikveh that fateful Shabbos day in Shevat 5710.
manny, are you aware of how long 10 years is?
Unrelated matter:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/911509.html
I guess now being a friend of Putin is a good thing, since he's "very close" to Rav Elyashiv, the Urim VeTumim of our generation.
natchalnikoff
Bravo!!!!
(I'm not from Kingston Ave.)
2 points is your score.
Next question: How many Skverrer Chassidim of today can trace their roots back to the Old Skverrer's father or zeide?
From the fact that shtei chatichos neveilah failedm.. and TA both hate Putin passionately (nobody else gets such treatment from them), one can learn that perhaps he is from the good side.
By 1950 those that 'farshei an yinan' in Lubavitch were already quite familair with the Rebbe. Besides, the contrast with Rashag was so huge that it took Reb Yoel (who was a young bochur that had just come to the US on Rashag's initinative) merely a couple of weeks to see who is who... And as far as 'manerisms of a European gentleman' go - davka in this Rashag was just as good as the Rebbe. :)
Tzig,I understand that you have some issues with Skver ( I remember your comments about New Square some time ago ), but do yourself a favour and don't start with descendants of Tchernobyl. Tchernobyl is also a spiritual powerplant. BTW Kolorash belonged to Russian Bessarabia like Kishinev, the birthplace of Rebbetzin Nechomoh Dinoh, except for the odd twenty years between WWI and WWII. So technically speaking the Skverer Rebbe was a Russian Rebbe. Regarding the lack of original Skverer Hassidim: How many Galicianer do you have in Bels?
Yoshe
nobody's starting with anybody.
At least Belz has SOME Galicianer.
Belz had many Hungarian chasidim BEFORE the War.
Skver is basically all newcomers.That is OK.In fact it's quite remarkable how much one Rebbe managed to do.New Square alone has close to 8 thousand inhabitants kein yirbu!
Hirshel,
As big as a misnaged I am, if the Rebbe said he went to Sorbonne, it's definitely true. No normal person suspects the Rebbe's character and I don't even believe that Menacham Friedman would suspect the Rebbe of not telling the truth. Where is it documented that the Rebbe said that he attended Sorbonne?
Please provide more information about the old Skverer Rebbe. I was raised with the attitude that the Skverer Rebbe was a major tzadik. Please elaborate.
The yunge chevra -both the Americans and the Otwocker bochurim knew where to go . . .
As to how many Galicianers in Belz, how many Hungarians and Poilishers in Mir and sephardim in Breslov?
Ailimisher:
I guess you're not an "Ailimisher" after all if you need ME to tell you about the Skverrer Rebbe.
Bekitzer, will you tell us what the old Skverrer Rebbe was known as before ... ?
natchalnikoff
I gave you the 2 points for that question. He was the Kolorasher Rebbe.
Were it not for Hungarians he'd still have a small shtiebel in Williamsburg, or would live by himself in Spring Valley. Not now, since he'd be well over 100 years old, but you know what I mean.
hirshel,
He was the Skvere Rebbe from Kolorash. He also imported so many things from Belz that today's Skver resembles pre-war Belz (the way it's supposed to be) much more so then it resembles pre-war Skver or any other Czernobyler offshoot. But it is very much in the spirit of Czernobyl for a Rebbe to do things he sees fit the way he sees them fit, and to question his decisions would be the most anti-Skverer thing to do. If he was to move to Antarctida and fill up his court from Yemenites, he'd still be a Skverer Rebbe from Antarctida.
That said, to call him a Romanian because his hoif was set up in Romania has about as much merit as calling Rayatz a Poilisher because his court was in Poland for a good chunk of time - Warsaw, Otwock et al, or maybe a "Kurlander" - for Riga period. The last Rebbe didn't step foot into Lubavich and spent most of his time so far from Russia that the "Lubavicher" definition has way less footing then a "Nikolaever", a "Berliner", a "Parizher" or a "Brooklyner" would have.
Yom Tov Sheini
Sorry I'm late...
The Skverer had an attitude because of the Besh"t siddur which ain kaan mekoimoi!
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