Wednesday, February 13, 2008

.אן אוצר. כפשוטו

pirsumrishon blog

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I liked this one.

35 comments:

schneur said...

Can you explain this to me. What is Gourary doing writing letters like this . Laufer and others have written that the Rebbe was immediately seen as the next rebbe in 1950. Something is wrong here. Did Deutsch plant these letters. Perhaps he wrote them or forged them.
What gives ?

Anonymous said...

(by berl, crown heights)

Tzig,

The farbrengen is so... pathetically unoriginal... And with this he thought he could compete... (anyone who read Yoel's letters from that time can put the farbrengen in its comical context)

That said, the man was Big. He saw (despite any personal peniyos) that there was a real Rebbe, and he became a real chosid, no matter what the S's want everyone to believe.

יה' זכרו ברוך

Hirshel Tzig said...

That Rashag saw himself as Rebbe is Kein Sofek Nit. The Shayleh iz what the chassidim thought....

berl, crown heights said...

tzig, Rasha'g hot hehat zainer mentchen.
The Rebbe's shitoh on nesius is not constricted by the visible 'facts on the ground'. The example of that is his explantaion on when the nesius of the Rebbe Rasha"b commenced. According to the Rebbe - in תרמ"ג, visibly & 'full-fledge' - around תרס"ג).

Reuven said...

From the letter from a bochur to a chosid in Eretz Yisroel (http://pirsumrishon.blogspot.com/2008/02/mi-barosh.html) you see that there was still some persuading to do in 5710. But already by kislev 5712 you can see in the third of the three letters i posted that the Rashag already considered the Rebbe in charge. i'm tied up for a few days but iy'h i hope to post a letter soon that eltere chassidim sent to the frierdike rebbetzin asking her to stop causing problems.

Anonymous said...

Laufer never wrote that the Rashag was a chosid from day one, and as a chosid that loves his Rebbe he didn't get in to the negative innuendos that obsessed chabad haters love to recycle on a monthly bases.

schneur said...

Perestroika. Chabad now openly admits that the succession in 1950 was not neat and clean and that the Rashag (and others) did not see the signals the Rayaatz supposedly gave to Anash that his #2 son in law was to be it. and succeed in a seemless fashion.
If there is a need to beleive that the Rashag was davuk in the Rebbe from day one , thats fine with me, and the more you repeat it the bigger the lie, but the same people who 20 years ago said there was a competion in 1950, will tell you that he was hardly the Chasid you paint him to be.
After all what did the Rebbe give him supposedly he was to be in control of TTL, but it took the rebbe only a few years to set up a competing school system in Ohelei Tore and a competing umbrella organization called Tzach (does anyone remeber TZach anymore after it took a hit in 1987 ?)Thus undercutting Rashag totally and living him in control of Bedford and Dean.
So did the rebbe let the Rashag say a few words at some farbrengung in 40 yearslets say at a YUD Beys tammuz gathering where the Rashag had a lot more first hand knowledge. ? NO.
In late 19th century Telz, in Der Lita there was a competition for the rabbanus, the obvious candidate was Rav Abba Werner the long term local rosh beth din , but lo and behold out of the blue Rav Laizer Gordon comes in and is chosen as rav. Years later when in London collecting money and having a tough time , Reb Gordon asked mechilla from rav Werner then rav in London. (See a recent issue of the London Jewish Tribune for the complete story) Mechilla for what ???

MIB said...

are u saying he never became a chosid of his brother in law?
everyvbody agrees that he wasn't one on day one, it took a few years.

interesting point you bring up re the establishment of oholei torah.

the fact does remain that the Rashag a'h (although a very talented and accomplished person and chosid and maskil in d'ach etc. etc.) was simply not in the league of the 7 nesiim...

Anonymous said...

it was not a smooth trasition there was no blogs to post the beatings that the Rshag got from varios buchrim ,he was not a dirty fighter so he lost

berl, crown heights said...

"the fact does remain that the Rashag a'h (although a very talented and accomplished person and chosid and maskil in d'ach etc. etc.) was simply not in the league of the 7 nesiim..."

mib,
You hit it right on the mark. All this talk about Rashag's bit for the position doesn't bring kovod to this otherwise accomplished man. And what does it really matter when he became a chosid? What will change if it happened in 1953 or 1978? Most likely it was a process. But we all saw what he did in 1985... Are we going to now believe rumors (from people that were as far from objective as one can get) that fly in the face of what עינינו ראו ולא זר ?
Also I wonder, why did this supposed 'non-chosid' leave his earthly possessions to AGUCH?

yehupitz said...

This reminds me (l'havdil) of those politicians who nag that they didn't become president because of a mean ad or phone call.

Like McCain nagging about some phone message in South Carolina in 2000, or Romney's people nagging about some McCain statement on a Saturday. Ridiculous.

They lost because they lost. The people didn't want them. Respect the decision and move on.

berl, crown heights said...

Since we are on this topic, I just want to say that my feeling has always been that had Rashag been a 'Schneersohn', he would have been chosen as the older one (or there would be a split). I strongly doubt that people really were able to see in 1950 who the Rebbe was, as many claim today they could. But the emotional connection to Beis HoRav, to the paternal lineage and to the very name 'Schneersohn' probably made the choice really easy for most... Then again, there were people who even then could see the אין ערוך divide between the two 'candidates' (e. g. Yoel).
Also, there seems little doubt that the Freirdike Rebbe had much hope for his grandson and, had BG remained a chosid bichelal and become a chosid of his uncle biferat, he would have certainly become Rebbe in 1994...

berl, crown heights said...

By the late 80's Rashag was already very frail. Those days the Rebbe uses to say the maamorim in the style of מאמר כעין שיחה. People therefore remained sitting for the duration (since it was not a full-fledged mamaor)... But Rashag used to immediately stand up (before others even realized it was a מאמר כעין שיחה ) and would remain standing for the duration! And he was not a chosid?!!!!

Mottel said...

Schneur -the yunger chevrah knew the Rebbe was the one, and I doubt it was because of the name.

Anonymous said...

Shneur
Whats this obsession of yours that the Rebbe had to co chair his nesius with a BIL ? did the Reb Aaron Belzer share his nesius with the Bigrier rov ? eventough the stepmother wanted,the bilgrayor was the fathers talmud he learned with him on a daily basis.

Levi said...

people knew of the rebbes gadles because of his shabbos mivorchim farbreigens, as well as his farbreingens libnei hayeshivos on suckos, but true it was mostly a younger crowd.

Anonymous said...

Did someone realize that all the Sichos of the Reshag were verbatim of the FR ?

SatmarTC said...

Berl
OI Vei

come on,
had BG being a chossid, he would be Rebbe in 1994 ?
if the Rebbe did not die for some LUBS, or coming back from tchias hameisim for other MOchichistm!

so easy o become a Rebbe?
100% non sense, such a thing coming from a Lub

berl, crown heights said...

satmartc,
1. he had to have potential, otherwise the FR wouldn't say the things he said about him;
2. you can safely assume that had things played out that way, he would be getting a very special treatment from the Rebbe for all these years as well and would be seen in very special light;
3. to be very honest with you, in the days immediately following 3 tammuz 5754, some very shpitz chabad people said things about succession that they would be very embarrassed to have repeated today...
anyways, what's the difference?

Anonymous said...

berl

who were the candidates?

berl, crown heights said...

anon 1:52 AM,
That wasn't my point. What crazy ideas people had in those painful moments is not important today. My point was that had there been even a remotely suitable candidate, he would have been made Rebbe in 1994, despite all the theological issues that might seem insurmountable (deir hashevii, moshiach, etc.)

SatmarTC said...

Berl

r u saying that BG would be considered in 1994 as MoshiacH?

berl, crown heights said...

satmartc,
You seem to be unable to be mafshit the reality of who BG became from the potential he most likely had when he was very young. Many things would be different, not just one little detail. Let's drop this conversation, I do not want people to thing I some Barry supporter - that was not my point AT ALL!

Mottel said...

Let us keep in mind the barry wasn't frum for quit some time . . .

Montreal'er said...

B"h
Berl,

Some of your info isn't correct.
1) Mamorim kein sicha didn't start in the mems.
2) There's a story that Rav A.Z. Slonim a"h told over about the Rashag a"h that he saw that the Rebbe was Rebbe in 5710. (the story for another time).

Bchalal, the first time the Rashag a"h came to farbreingen was shabbos breishis yud gimmel.

כ"ט תשרי תשי"ג

שבת בראשית

אחרי ההפטרה ולפני הכנסת הספר-תורה לארון-הקודש הורה כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א שיאמרו "יהללו וגו'" במנגינה של שמחת-תורה ושינגנו ניגון שמח. הוציאו ס"ת ורקד עמו במשך עשרים דקות. בעת ההתוועדות נכח גם הרש"ג.
from http://www.yoman770.com/wiki/
%D7%9B%22%D7%98_%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99
_%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%99%22%D7%92

Montreal'er said...

B"h
To correct something in my last post it seems that the Rashag was already there at farbreingens before shabbos Breishis. See the link above, that he was there for Simchas torah farbeingen, (maybe even ealier ?).

berl, crown heights said...

motreal'er,

1. I did not suggest that mamorim kein sichoh started in the 'mems'. I simply said the Rebbe "used to say them then."

2. I also specifically said I did not know when Rashag became a chosid of the Rebbe, I just said that he did.

Reuven said...

montrealer,

the story from slonim is definitely not accurate, bli neder i will be posting some letters from after yud shevat 5711 on my blog (pirsumrishon.blogspot.com) that clearly show the machlokes was very strong. have some patience, some stuff will be up before shabbos bl'n.

Schneur said...

Rashag leaving his earthly posessions to Aguch.
Who exactly signed this will ? perhaps the man who was convicted of the biggest white colllar crime in the history of the state of New York ?
Its interesting to note that this man or the crime after conviction was never noted by the Chabad movement and its leadership.
I recall the ex con sitting behind the rebbe after his conviction !

Montreal'er said...

B"H

Reuven shy'

The Slonim story is accurate, it was told over by those who heard it for him.(There were other stories too, in Yemei Breishis).

Of course the Machlokes was strong, it still took some time for him to realize.

Here's the story from "To know and to care" (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:OgSyAQsKyfQJ:www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-know-and-to-care-1/09.htm+slonim+%2B+rashag&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)

"We might gain some insight into the events which transpire while the Rebbe visits the Previous Rebbe's gravesite from an interchange between Rabbi Shmaryahu Gurary, the Rebbe's brother-in-law, and Reb Azriel Zelig Slonim. Commonly known as the Rashag, Rabbi Gurary was an outstanding example of a chassid whose heart and soul were devoted to the Rebbe.
"As you know, Reb Zelig," explained the Rashag. "When my father-in-law, the Previous Rebbe, passed away, we were all heartbroken and confused. One day, I was deliberating unsuccessfully over a very important issue. I decided to consult my brother-in-law (the Rebbe Shlita).

"He weighed the matter carefully, and then said: 'I would not like to take personal responsibility for such an important issue. I will visit the gravesite later today, and I will discuss it with our father-in-law. Then I will give you an answer.' Upon his return, he presented me with an excellent solution."

"Now listen here, Reb Zelig," concluded the Rashag. "My brother-in-law is not one who exaggerates. If he said that he would discuss the matter with the Previous Rebbe at his gravesite, then that is exactly what transpired. I know that I am not capable of this. Since he can do so - I am his devoted chassid."

Reuven said...

i am not convinced such a story happened before tishrei 5712.

Guravitzer said...

Ay, Shneur, Barry hut dir shtark gebisen...

schneur said...

Supposedly Chabad people know how to think, but after reading many of the mindless comments on this blog , I have to wonder.
It's a well known fact that the rashag and the Rebbe did not get along betwen 1929-1950 (even without the tale about the Rashag supposed reluctance to bring the ramash to the US) so pray tell me how according to Slonim the Rashag became such a shtarker mekusher to the Rebbe by 1952 even though that time period included a "miuse" battle over leadership.For all these years the Rashag did not see that kedusha in the rebbe ?
What do you expect R. Slonim to write that the Rashag did not like the Rebbe ?
I attended many farbrenguns in 770 and seeing the rashag sit there at least to me did not indicate any great hispaalus on his part on what was happening about him, unlike shall we say Hodakov , Yolles, Mentelik , Futterfass etc etc.
When the 2 brothers in law were alone without their spouses they still chose to have sepaarate sedorim even though the Rashag was so mekusher to the Rebbe ...
.

Montreal'er said...

Reuven
Vos epes 5712?

Shneur

Check this out. Hope it answerers you questions!
http://www.shturem.net/index.
php?section=artdays&id=377&lang=
hebrew&lang=hebrew

MIB said...

shneur,

did the the two couples eat the sedorim together after 1971?