Friday, February 8, 2008

This Shliach has seen enough!


He Responds to This Bash-Fest on Cross-Currents, and gives it directly to Toby Katz.

This issue has been debated ad nauseum even in this forum, I doubt anything I will add will change anyone's set mind. It seems every Lubavitcher, Moshichist or not, is painted with the same vile brush, the fact that within Chabad there is extreme anger and even purging (witness the recent court case against the M’s in 770) is meaningless. The fact that any reader here can walk into a Chabad House throughout the USA, and in 99% of the cases will find not one hint of Yechi, Moshiach etc. is meaningless, The fact that at the recent Kinus, attended by over 3,500 Rabbis and 1,500 lay leaders and not one hint of Moshiach was uttered, is meaningless to this august crowd of contributors who continue to fill this and other prominent Blogs with their venom nothing else matters.

How many times have I read, of writers who while grudgingly admit that the Rebbe was “a Talmid Chacham” never even saw one of his, over a hundred, published works in all parts of Torah, Kabbala, Halacha, etc. yet heard from someone that heard from someone that he knew a little how to learn. How many times have I read of writers who dismiss Chabad work and wax knowingly about the type of Rabbis and communities they establish, and what they do there without even once visiting a Chabad House, or even meeting a Shliach. They rely on hearsay, on fragmented stories, on admittedly true stories but of disturbed individuals who perhaps never even learned in a Yeshiva but has decided to don a Kapote and wear a Borsalino and a beard. In a recent Blog, I read a comment by one who heard that someone visited someone, not a Rabbi, and before he made Kiddush Friday Night he kept looking at the Rebbe's Picture. Shoin!! Chabad is Ovdei Avoda Zoro. This is so ridiculous, laughable even, had it not reached such harmful proportions. How many readers, before they solemnly write out a segment of Klal Yisrael, a huge group of dedicated, good hearted, knowledgeable, nice families, who’ve dedicated their lives, in sometimes extreme conditions, to helping lost souls of Klal Yisrael, even bothered to drive thirty minutes, and spend a Shabbos at a random Chabad center, or two or three and see for themselves what really goes on.

I came to Sherman Oaks, California 21 years ago, there was nothing anywhere near my area, I was the only Frum Jew within 5 miles. I put up signs and some Yidden walked in. We have had a kosher minyan ever since. I gave a shiur in Chumash Rashi before davening, a Dvar Torah before Mussaf, and a shiur at mincha. I gave a tuesday night shiur, and my wife gave a monday night womens' shiur. We started an afternoon and Sunday Talmud Torah, ultimately sending dozens of students to the local orthodox day school, which in turn cemented the parents and the whole family to stricter Torah observance. We built a new building with a Mikve, the only Mikve in the immediate area for women, and the only mens' Mikve in the entire East Valley open daily. We now have over 120 people coming each Shabbos to Daven, we have a minyan 3 time daily with shiurim every morning and evening before mincha. On Yomim Noroim we have 2 minyonim, Ashkenaz and Sefard, with an aggregate of close to 800 attendees, no membership. On Monday nights there is a Shiur Torah in Russian, on Thursday nights in Hebrew, and Tuesday nights in English in addition to lunch and learn. We have a Talmud Torah with over 60 children, and a Bat Mitzvah club every year of Bat Mitzvah girls, we have a womens shiur and monthly tehillim groups , and we constantly have speakers on relevant Torah topics. Oh, and Boruch Hashem, we are an established stop for many meshulochim, collecting for decidedly non-chabad institutions daily. Of course they don’t seem to have any problem soliciting our funds, I guess Money is not Metame..

The past president of the local elementary school, the largest in the west, walked in to our shul years ago, now he, a full Ba'al Teshuva, and others on that same board as well who are mispallelim at other local Chabad institutions, give back tremendously to the community at large. There's more, but I won't bore you. Just in The Valley there are 21 such Chabad houses and centers. Some more succesful (Agoura Ca., Encino, Tarzana)) some less. Does anybody reading this realize any of this before they so willy-nilly tar and feather Chabad off the Jewish map? And yes, we talk about our Rebbe, we teach and learn his Torah, and we inspire people to follow his example of leading a selfless life of Torah and Mitzvos. We are Chassidim, we are connected to a Rebbe, we are proud of that. Were it not for the Rebbe's inspiration, I would have simply joined my families’ business and sat on Blogs all day. And no, we're not perfect not even close, we in Chabad, as in every single group, have their bad rotten apples, doesn't everybody?

I do, however, want to express my extreme disgust at “Rebbetzin” Katz, and her vile remarks in this forum and others; ugly, snide words cloaked in backhanded praise wondering whether the poison in every drop of water justifies the good. Afra Lepuma, I take personal offense. I am the Rov of a Chabad Shul, I receive no compensation, I have a business. I receive tens of Shaalos a week from Jews of all Valley communities, as it seems that I am the only one available, and I have merited to good Shimush. I am asked to adjudicate disputes, I have shiurim for hours daily, I have Kashered kitchens and put up mezuzos, I have brought unfortunate people to Kever Yisrael and attended more Shiva calls than you can even imagine there being. I have visited children and siblings of frum tradiitional homes who have landed in prison, I have made loans and donations to all types of Jews knowing I will never get it back, I have interceded on behalf of single mothers and other unfortunates to all types of schools, camps and institutions for free or reduced admittance and you dare to accuse me and my dear wife and children of instilling poison??? who are you, and how dare you even think words like that, let alone write such spiritually murderous poisonous words? how does a Jewish daughter even say such things? your Father was a Gerrer Chosid, does that make you an authority on Chassidus? you should be ashamed of yourself! what kind of warped chinuch did you recieve? I do not ask you or anyone on this forum to become a Lubavitcher Chossid, nor do I care what you think, nor do I even delude myself that there is not very valid criticisms of many in Chabad, nor would it bother me if anyone were to ask questions about my Rebbe's opinions and teachings, but to write words like that? on what basis? you met a few nut cases or misguided lunatics and you judge a whole Eidah? would you judge other communities similarly?

I totally understand the troubling Moshiach issues and its difficulties. I am the total opposite of a Moshichist, I and my friends and all that I associate with oppose it and will not allow any of their philosophy in our shuls. We have instructed young men who have desired to engage our congregants to leave the shul, and we do not allow placement of any publications mailed to us. I also have read recently on another popular Blog (where Toby spews forth regularly) where to my surprise a seemingly non chabad writer asked the self proclaimed “Halachist specialist” Blogmaster if there is anything in pure Halacha that would oppose believing that a person dead or alive is Moshiach, and to my amazement this honest and fearless blog master kept on refusing to answer, until he was seemingly forced to write that admittedly Halacha does not find anything wrong with that position, But it's wrong and dangerous and etc etc. because it's against the Torah and could lead to other problems. Without even realizing that this exact position was the reason all the Gedolim of yesteryear were vehemently against the MO Rabbinate, including RYBS, and others, because it could lead…

I, and multitudes of my colleagues, who BTW, bear the brunt of the justified backlash of the group of Meshichisten around, tend to flocks of Yidden, teach them Torah, introduce them to HKB"H and his Mitzvos, in many cases seeing them continue on their journey in another more established community. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, the shmutz I read in this blog and others, is shameful. Learn a little about Chabad and its Rebbes, open up a Sefer of The Rebbe in its source, not what some former student or dropout or single person interprets his words. Realize that as with any discipline, especially mystical, one has to understand the context and vocabulary used. Visit a Chabad House or two, and look at the type of Far Far off Jews on the front line these Rabbis have to deal with in way off communities and see what they have to work with. See how they live financially, see what it takes to educate their children properly, the hours and expense incurred to do car pool to the city etc. the mesirus for life in a foreign environment then try to emulate them and do something positive.

I know I went too long. But enough is enough! you cannot continue to murder an entire Eidah Kedosha on lies.

Moishe Weiss
Chabad of Sherman Oaks, CA

95 comments:

Baltimore said...

R'Moshe Weiss
You write well, though there was no need to get nasty towards the end against Toby Katz.It sounds personal,additionally every gentleman should know to give a woman a bit more respect.

Now about the issue:Your indignation is unfortunately misguided and addressed to the wrong person.Mrs Katz is not the one parading the nonsense around 770, which today includes a whole car covered with the yellow fever gibberish with the Rebbes pic and shlit'a etc..We would have loved to hear your voice loud and clear against the Meshichists.We have not.You also know R'Moshe, that the Meshichisten are a much larger proportion of Chabad then you let on.They even include members of the Crown Heights beis din and many rabonim.Lets not exhaust ourselves debating the issue of the percentage of the meshichist camp, they are significant enough to have the largest yeshiva, by far(Tzfas).
R'Moshe your erudition is appreciated, but again unfortunately most Lubavitcher shluchim are not very learned, after all they leave yeshiva in their early twenties .
Last but not least you are again an anomaly, being independently well off, while coming from a very established family.I wish you would fargin the meshulochim a bit more, you sound a bit aggrieved by them knowing your address.Listen, you are thank G-d very able to give and bear in mind that most of the financial support Lubavitch gets is from non Lubavitchers, so it's ok if you give a fair share.
R'Moshe, don't take this personally, you are a feiner yid, but had you stood up a lot sooner against the right people, Lubavitch would be in much saner shape.
It would also help that you visited Crown Heights more often and saw for yourself hoe insane the 'matsav' has become.

This writer is an alumnus of Lubavitcher yeshivos who threw in the towel when the insanity took over and the ones who were supposed to be stopping it were instigating it.

Anonymous said...

In my community, people who do not know Alef-Beis, know from the start to hate Chabad. All this is thanks to our local Ner Israel Sponsored Kollel. What a digust! Like what Rabbi Weiss said, if only people would visit a Chabad House and open a Chabad Sefer, than things would change. May Chabad continue to be strong in the actions and create a positive change in this world.

t613k said...

I have visited plenty of Chabad Houses, and I know many, many Lubavitchers. My husband was in shul one morning (Young Israel of Greater Miami) when he witnessed a Lubavitcher neighbor of ours showing a new BT how to put on tefillin. The fellow showed the BT that when you take your tefillin out of the tefillin zekel, you must look at a picture of the Rebbe (which he kept in his tefillin zekel of course). Now this particular Lubavitcher was davening in the Young Israel at the time because the rabbi of the local Chabad shul wouldn't let him daven there -- because he's so extreme. So kol hakovod to that Chabad rav, R' Marlow. But there are SO MANY of these extremists and weirdos, here where I live we meet up with them ALL THE TIME.

One of my students in Bais Yakov babysat for a Lubavitch BT family where, when the children said krias shma at bedtime, they had been taught to look at a picture of the Rebbe on the wall while saying shma.

I can go on and on and on. You can splutter and rant -- but you can't tell me I haven't seen and heard the things I've seen and heard. I feel sorry for you the way I feel sorry for law-abiding, hard-working, educated black people. You personally work so hard and do so much good, and then your reputation suffers so unfairly because you are associated in people's minds with the many negative representatives of your race. But the people who deserve your rage are not people like me who can't tell the difference between one Lubavitcher and the next. The people who deserve your rage are your fellow Lubs who are making the name of Chabad mud.

I am happy that Lubavitch is finally purging the extremists. It's about time. I wish you hatzlacha rabba.

Anonymous said...

Its amazing how much hatred this so called Rabbi has for other Jews.

Here is a shaalah: Is someone worried about the issues Chabad teaches--although it has "very valid criticms of many in Chabad--deserving of afrah limpumyah? Especially when you are asking for understanding?

This "Rabbi" is so full of self-righteousness and lack of foresight that its difficult for me to believe the balance of his rant. What a sonei Yisroel. Thank you for demonstrating the true persepctive of what Chabad is like.

PS The Rebbe was a talmid chochom. And, I have seen and heard Lubavitchers say much worse about Rav Shach--calling him a demon, dog, and the like. Chabad has no right to throw stones and it will continue to place itself in obscurity if it does so.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I feel sorry for you the way I feel sorry for law-abiding, hard-working, educated black people. You personally work so hard and do so much good, and then your reputation suffers so unfairly because you are associated in people's minds with the many negative representatives of your race.

Mr t613k proves what many of us, especially those who come in contact with this haughty empty suits, have known for a long time: That there's nobody home, so quit knocking on the door.

It's not like they're waiting for you to change so that they can accept you, they want you out at all costs, so they find reasons to keep you out. Not that I'd want to be in on that snot-nosed club anyway.

berl, crown heights said...

I think we are in the תל"ק pickle...
What is needed if for the most senior and respected of rabbonei chabad to come out with a definitive teshuvoh/psak on the subject. We can no longer afford to tolerate the yellow meshugoim and demagogues. On the other hand, nor should we wish to agree with the Chabad revisionists that want to snuff out the whole Rebbe-moshiach issue (like the two that commented on the CC blog). We are chasidim, we can deal with esoteric ideas, with chasidishe lachluchis, etc.

Uri said...

Hirshel Tzig is proving Mrs t613 point so well......
Your previous rant against the Modern Orthodox also talk a page out of Sharptons book:Everybody hates you, even the MO's!Nebach.Maybe it because of your atitude?
You don't care.Yeah.That's why your whole blog is about 'defending' yourselves.....
What an empty Sirtuk...

Hirshel Tzig said...

My blog is about exposing fools like yourself.

uri said...

'Exposing fools like myself'
Now that was a 'smart comment'
What did you expose?That by your own admission 'everybody hates you'!?
You must be really proud of yourselves!
And I thought Chabad was about Chochmo,bino and da'as......and penimiyus:So either you are just a bad empty sirtuk example or stam a shoiteh using Chabads famed hachnosas orchim to take you in as a fan.


To the other Lubavitchers who have a bit more seychel:Never,ever say/admit that 'everybody hates you'.A)Hopefully it's not true,but B)It's the most terrible p.r.
(you see in peoples minds there will be a thought process about why everyone 'hates you')

Hirshel Tzig said...

To hate is easy, it's a natural reaction, and greatly increases your opinion of yourself. If you hate everybody else you're the greatest! Typical snag philosophy.

Uri and his ilk are not the ones we need to worry about it's the ones that unfortunately "run" Yiddishkeit that we need to worry about. Not because of who they are, but because of what they have in hand. To them Moshe Weisz speaks.

Guravitzer said...

Toby Katz: Disgusting Jewish plagiarists, Lubavitchers, Modern Orthodox, Yeshivish, and probably most of her own friends since 1998.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Attention Meshichisten:

don't nitpick Moshe Weiss' words. You're not welcome here if what you wish is to destroy all the Rebbe worked for.

uri said...

'Typical snag philosophy'
Again, typical Lubab rejoinder.You claim 'everybody hates you'.

I guess you think Toby Katz 'runs Yiddishkait' eh?....

Are you somebody who wants to make Chabad look really bad or just a feeble minded kid?


Btw, how come you never made it to
'Shliach' status??
I guess they have some minimal standards...

Hirshel Tzig said...

Toby Katz is a good - albeit unsolicited - shick-meidel for them.

They have standards, yes. That's why guys like yourself are avoided like that plague.

Anonymous said...

All aboard the 'we hate Toby Katz' wagon!
Oh the Ahavas Yisroel, so palpable!!!

Anonymous said...

Still the Satmar schooled yingel that has substituted 'Tziyoinem' for 'Snags' with a dash of 'frauen arauss'
Get a life

Anonymous said...

''don't nitpick Moshe Weiss' words. You're not welcome here if what you wish is to destroy all the Rebbe worked for.''

I though this was a discussion blog, now it turns out that it's looking to promote the Tzig version and muzzle others.

Btw, you are a real baal gayveh if you think this silly blog could make or 'destroy' all the Rebbe worked for

peyshe der baal agoleh said...

critiquing toby katz or writing a scorching rejoinder answering a detractors claims point by point is not 'hate' nor is it necessarily the opposite of ahavas yisroel.

it's a sensitive issue, his response will naturally be emotionally charged. that doesn't make him or anyone else sonie yisroel.

tolerance always has limits - it cannot tolerate that which is itself actively intolerant.

grow up people and just learn to call a spade a spade.

gershon said...

Peysheh
Now that you have learned to spell 'agoleh', why is it that when someone critical of Chabad that point by point shows his view is considered a 'hater'
Why,eh??

Camp Runamok said...

The lead article by Rabbi Mencken actually made a good point. Jpost's goas was to find a "s'neigur" to justify M beliefs and actions. The best they could come up with was, to put it bluntly, the class flunkie! This does not bode well for the long-term propagation of that school of thought as anything but a marginalized fringe. The mind droppings and mikvah news of a new misinformed commentors notwithstanding. QED!

Shimi said...

Yeah Tzig,

the ugly snags even forged the Alter Rebbes letters against the Tolker chassidim. The real letter said: "There are no weirdos (maybe just some individuals) and everybody just hates us." Way to go.

peyshe der baal agoleh said...

gershon,
they aren't.

any mature human being is aware that they are not infallible and should be open to constructive criticism.

i think rabbi weiss made it abundantly clear that he is conscious of the deep internal problems within chabad, as he made clear that the leadership and silent majority have, and continue to, take steps to rectify the situation [a fact which all the loving chabad pundits seem to conveniently ignore].

the 'even habochein' whether the criticism towards chabd from the peanut gallery on chabad [in the blogsphere or elsewhere] is indeed stemming from their overflowing love and sincere care for their fellow jews or not, is the presence or absence of the need to insult, and/or create an oppositional attitude.

this is obviously taking for granted that criticism of any sort must be based on prior knowledge and objective evaluation of the facts.

unfortunately, the critics on chabad that are both objectively well informed [as apposed to those that spew their bellyfeel or thruthiness sentiments], and have a no axe to grind are few and far in between.

[p.s. your harping on a typo that was once made [aside from being immature and ad hominem] is more telling about you than i. - i'm just feeling the love]

Anonymous said...

weiss is being totally dishonest!
almost all chabadniks believe the rebbe is moshiach. however those interfacing with the public recognize that they would be regarded as complete lunatics were they to voice their real honest opinions and they therfore keep their moths (or rather "yechi's) shut!!

SatmarTC said...

R Weiss is doing a great job
we can compare his job with a rate like 1 to 1000 Chabad Houses and most problably I am short

The Lub Rebbe is more than a Talmid Chachom , is a Rebbe ,a tzaddik ,that any sincere and not brain washed Jew ,with a little seichel, would recognize that the LUB REbbe really changed the Jewish Nation
HIs imapact was not only in the non frum crowd, I think that he got more "shluchim" from other groups , that started and contunue to imitate his revolution in different ways

We are planning to start in Satmar (not official), something similar, more conservative
we have the advantage that we don't have Moshichistm

Hirshel Tzig said...

?מה אתה אומר

Kiruv in Satmar> are you serious?

which Satmar?

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous 3:43pm

what Lubavitchers believe is not the point here. Are you the thought police that exposes peoples' thoughts? Can we base our decision on you on what you think?

Anonymous said...

pray explain to me how "what lubavitchers believe is not the issue here" surely this is the CORE issue which we are discussing.
r. weiss claims that the fact that "3500 shluchim and 1500 laymen did not shout yechi proves they are not 'meshichistim'.
in truth the fact that 3500 shluchim did not shout 'yechi' is BECAUSE there were 1500 lay leaders there!!
we all know that in closed 'farbrengins'. chabadniks do talk of the rebbe as meshiach!!
face the truth tzig, and stop obfuscating!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chabadniks talk of the Rebbe as Moshiach - some of them - but in the sense that this is what we believed while the Rebbe was alive and we're not about to change. Yes, I realize that's difficult to comprehend, but that's the way it is.

As far as them all believing;
1) that's not true.
2) It's really not talked about, not even between themselves.

Isaac Balbin said...

In my neck of the woods, the impotence of the powers that be is demonstrated on a weekly basis. A handful of activists have thumbed their noses at the head shliach (Rav Y.D. Groner) whose policy is to allow the Yechi slogan to be displayed prominently at the same time prohibiting the chanting of Yechi after or during davening unless Rabbi Groner specifies otherwise. I can't recall the last time that Yechi was mandated by Rav Groner.

The zealots are primarily exceedingly simple people who do not recognise the authority of the local Chabad Rabbinate. To be fair, that Rabbinate has heretofore made only rather feeble attempts to terminate the zealot's exhibitionism.

The Head Shaliach and others have made enormous contributions to this city and their achievements are most impressive and not dissimilar to those of Rabbi Weiss. Unfortunately, the weak response to the zealots has shifted attention away from achievement and spotlighted the pitiful impotence now displayed by the local Chabad Rabbinate.

Yes, I can well understand Rabbi Weiss' angst. Instead of yelling at the rest of us to remember and recognise his hard work etc he might be better off screaming at the yellow zealots who are turning the once respected movement into a lame and leaderless target of large scale derision. Sad but true.

Rabbi Weiss: Chabad needs to clean up its own backyard before it asks the rest of us to ignore its yellowed washing.

Steve said...

Not that the meshichisten represent true teachings of chabad, but, even IF they did...has it fallen to some ignorant fools on a blog to determine the halachic criteria for heresy ? You're upset about some kooks in a yellow bar, baltimore, so you left lubavitch ?! Oh my, I'm sure the lubavitch movement will miss you, lol. But since you are, after-all, a fellow Jew, I still have to give you some good advice - Don't bend over in the Baltimore mikve, especially not in NI...oh that's right- they don't go to the mikve (only the special ones) :-)

SAB said...

Kiruv in Satmar> are you serious?

I have heard that there is a Satmar kiruv yeshiva in Y-m. No idea if it is true - but if it is great - the Rebbe did not want a monopoly and the more the better considering how many Jews still need to be brought to Torah.

Mottel said...

I think we can take the yellow car as a case in point . . .
How many people are behind it's production? Three, four, ten -at max?
How many support it not many more then that . . .
How many can't stand it, feel that it's an abomination? Almost all of us.
When it first came out, I called that someone would dent it, scratch it, have it towed . . . Nothing happened.
Now I realize why -We, the vast majority of Lubavitchers, are not up for a fight -a few, and it truly is a few, crazies can make a heck of a lot of noise, and will back it with the fist . . . That's not our way.

So while the whole world sees the car, they fail to realize why it's still there.

Anonymous said...

check out some interesting comments on this subject being made here.


http://www.haloscan.com/comments/hmaryles/7642121749509217352/?src=hsr#137067

http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

Simcha said...

Kiruv in Satmar?

Organized - no. Yet I remember in the late 60's - early 70's seeing YU boys being invited to Williamsburg to spend
Shabbos with Satmar families. On Simchas Torah, I saw teenage boys with long hair (not payos) and small silk taleisim get aliyos along with everyone else. At least then, when the community was smaller, I don't think you could find a warmer more heimisher community than Satmar in Williamsbug.+

Anonymous said...

Mottel give me a break - you are not for a fight??? whats the shomrim all about and what's all the law suits all about? it takes two to tango

steve said...

Here is my response to some of what I've been reading on CrossCurrents. Unfortunately, Yaakov Menken refuses to post my comments as, I imagine, they don't quite juve with 'the world according to those who hate'.

On anti-semitism, context, Toby Katz, and revisionist history:
The bulk of what Rabbi Weiss writes is, unfortunately, quite true. As one who travels the world regularly, and meets with both Chabad Rabbis and many of their detractors from among Litvish / Yeshivish circles, I feel somewhat qualified to comment, certainly no less than other talking heads on this blog. I spent about 25 years in various yeshivas, including two run by Chabad, Merkaz Harav, and Ner Yisroel, and received semicha before entering the workforce. As a collector of historical (religious) manuscripts, as well as an amateur historian with a focus on the Jewish world over the last hundred years, I feel a number of observations need to be made here.

1. The first major public address following the Lubavitcher Rebbe's formal accession to the leadership of Chabad, was delivered in January 1951. While heavily loaded with what might (at least to the Chasidically-ignorant) have sounded like kabbalistic innuendo and overt clues as to the identity of the Moshiach, to anyone even remotely familiar with the historical chassidic classics, the LR's talk would hardly have been remarkable. By 'Chassidic Classics', I mean works like the Noam Elimelech, Meor Einayim, Kedushat Levi, Tanya, and the Toldos etc. While rumor of some supposedly rather snide remarks by R' Velvel Brisker (supposedly calling the LR a 'meshugenne') have made the rounds for many years, I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling evidence of the statement having ever been made. The same can be said of many other supposed 'warnings of the gedolim' regarding Chabad. It's worth noting that even if any of these types of statements were to be substantiated, they would represent nothing more than minority opinions in the face of much historical (past & present) precedent. Also relevant is the fact that only one intimately familiar with Kabbalistic writings and Chassidic teachings, could reasonably be expected to appreciate the LR's initial discourse in context. It is highly unlikely, given what we know of the focus and teachings of the classic 'Litvish gedolim' alive during the 1950's and 60's, that any of them fit the bill. Yes, my friends, sometimes context is everything.

2. Although the LR's words were widely publicized (by various means) over the following month's, there was no (documented) public rejoinder or criticism that any of the many Rabbonim of that era I've had the privilege to interview, were aware of. An honest observer must then consider the following;
The 'messianic' talk by the LR begins in 1951, yet he goes on to earn the near-universal respect and admiration of the vast majority of his contemporaries during the next 40-odd years. An even cursory review of many published comments, various audio recordings, and a few videos, makes this quite obvious. Obvious, that is, to all but the hardest core hate-mongers, whose agenda renders any and all evidence irrelevant. What certain Brooklyn and Israel-based hate factories have failed to explain to their inductees, is how the following mix of true gedolei-yisrael from accross the torah spectrum could all have gotten it so 'wrong', while some peon-Roshei Yeshiva became the few 'yodei daas elyon'! I have included only documented visits to, and/or frequent contacts with the LR, in largely chronological sequence, with dates where readily available.
Rav Efraim Yolles, renowned posek and gaon, av-beis-din of Philadelphia
(2/21 1958, 4/3 1980,4/21 1981, 4/11 1982, 3/31 1983 4/8 1985,
The Rachumstrivke Rebbe 12/19 1966
Rav Moshe Zvi Neriya (Bnei Akiva, Merkaz HaRav etc.) 5/1957, 12/4 1967
The Belzer Rebbe 2/4 1973, again on 3/10 1981
R' Yakov Alter (then the son of, today the Rebbe of) Ger 5/12 1977
R' Chaim Meir Yechiel Shapira of Narol 12/26 1977
The Gerer Rebbe 9/11 1978
The Skulye Rebbe 7/15 1981
R' Pinchas Menachem Alter (then RY, Aand next Rebbe)of Ger 9/5 1979 & 1/14 1982, 4/17 1983, 2/16 1984
R' Menashe Klein 1/27 1983
The Nadvorner Rebbe 4/27 1983
The Alexanderer Rebbe 5/3 1983
The Sadigurer Rebbe 6/18 1980 and on 12/20 1983
Chief Rabbis of Israel, R' A Shapira & R' Mordechai Eliyahu 11/25 1984, and again on 4/6 1986
The Oksover Rebbe (be'er sheva), after R'PM Alter of Ger on 2/16 1984
R' Yitzchak Yedid Frankel 5/14 1984
The sons of the Lelover Rebbe 11/19 1984
Chief Rabbi of France, R'Shmuel Sirot 6/9 1985
Not to mention the many for which there are no available (or incomplete) transcripts, including; The Boyaner Rebbe (R' Sholom Mordechai),The Satmar Rebbe (R' Yoel), R' Moshe Yitzchak of Pshevorsk (Antwerp), The Skulener Rebbe (R' Elazar Zushe), The Rimnitzer Rebbe, R'Shlomo Goren, R'Moshe Feinstein, R' Yosef Naftali Stern (Seret), R' Nochum Partzovitz (Mir), the Gaon R' Chayim Tzimmerman (agan hasahar, kav hataarich), R' Chaim Yaakov Klapholtz (ikvei chaim), R'Boruch Simon Schneerson, , R'Shalom Mordechai Schwadron, Rav Pam, and R' Moshe Wolfson (of tora vodaas) among many others. Lest I be remiss in neglecting to mention the following prominent Rabbonim who saw fit to pay a shiva visit to the LR during the two days he sat shiva on September 13-14 1964, including; R' Yitzchak Hutner, R' Yoshe Ber Soleveitchik (whose other visit to the LR years later is well documented, after which he referred to the LR as "a gaon, a godol, a manhig yisroel"), R' Yitzchak Krieger, the Novominsker Rebbe, the Satmarer Rebbe (R'Yoel), and the Stritziver Rebbe, among many others. All of these saw fit to honor the LR, consult with him, quote his torah insights, or (at the barest minimum) make the time to seek a meeting with him, in spite of his continually demanding moshiach and relentless focus on encouraging all Jews to do their utmost to hasten the redemption ! Yet the silly and immature hatred continues to rear it's ugly head, often in the guise of 'concern for Torah and klal yisrael', and recently by way of the fingertips of one Toby Katz...

3. Let us then, examine the 'proofs' of 'Rebbetzin' Katz, along with the supporting evidence (or lack thereof) for her rather grave charges of "slipping a few drops of poison into every cup of water — a bit of sheker, a hint of a suggestion of avodah zarah"-her words. Note also, that she levels these charges in a public forum against, at a minimum, many thousands of observant Jews. Perhaps 'Rebbetzin' Katz has seen the danger that seems to have eluded all the geonim, poskim, and rebbes noted above....possible, though unlikely. Consider also the gravity of the sin of loshon-hora in a public place, and that according to the Gemara, Rambam etc, Toby Katz and her ilk have forfeited their place in the world-to-come. As she besmirches an unknown quantity of Jews before an unquantifiable audience, she has rendered it impossible to beg forgiveness from all those she slandered, even in the (unlikely?) event of 'yaare aleha ruach mimorom' (see the Rambam hil. Teshuva ch.4, and also the gemara in B"M 58b, where such behavior is likened to murder). Please explain to us which chapter in Shmiras Haloshon allows you to vilify an entire group as you have done, Mrs. Katz, and perhaps you can also share with us 'mehechan dant' or at-least 'mina hani mili deamar kra', considering the gravity of your charge(s).
Toby Katz cites no proof for her slander, no Gemara, no poskim, nothing from hilchos avoda-zara or even any halachic responsa ?! Is it too much to ask that, prior to leveling a charge of collective heresy, 'Rebbetzin' Katz at least demonstrate some knowledge of the applicable laws and relevant criteria ? But Toby Katz has no need for little things like halacha, she has all the evidence she needs as a by-product of her teaching career, in her words;
"I taught in a Lubavitch school in Melbourne Australia (Bais Rivka H.S.) for three years in the 1980’s — I was the only non-Lubavitcher on the kodesh staff. I got to know a lot about Lubavitch then, and what an eye-opener it was."
No word about what exactly opened her eyes to the 'sheker and avoda zarah' - are we supposed to convict a movement on a self-proclaimed 'Rebbetzin's word alone ?
"My husband has Lubavitch cousins in Postville and my brother in law went there for a family bar mitzva — another eye-opener."
And I have litvish cousins in Gateshead and Lakewood....and I went there for a wedding, and I saw some astonishing ignorance of the Shulchan Aruch...so- do I brand them heretics ?! 'Dvar hashem zu halacha', Rebbetzin Katz.
"Now I live in North Miami Beach, surrounded by numerous Lubavitchers,and have been to quite a few ladies’ gatherings and seen quite a bit of Chabad literature and heard amazing things. I could write a book about every false thing that I have heard stated in the name of Chabad, the list is a mile long."
You might mean false things similar to Noach Weinberg claiming to have pioneered the kiruv movement.... yet I still wouldn't call him a heretic. And how sloppy can you be, Rebbetzin - you dare condemn so many Jews based on what you've seen at "quite a few ladies' gatherings" ?! Or do you mean the falsehoods you spread about your late father, painting him as a card-carrying Gerrer chosid, a blatant lie, considering that (except for a very short spell) he was almost never seen in Ger.

"But for now I will mention just one: I have heard MANY times from Lubavitchers that “To be a chossid you MUST believe your rebbe is Moshiach. If your father didn’t believe that the Gerrer Rebbe was Moshiach then he wasn’t really a Gerrer chossid.”
Ah, at long last !! Please tell us you're kidding. This isn't proof of heresy, rather of your ignorance- both of what halacha defines as heresy, as well as simple chassidic history. See the major chassidic works mentioned earlier. It is true that since World War 2 no chassidic group (to my knowledge) has identified their Rebbe as moshiach, other than Lubavitch. However, over the 200 years prior, such comments were frequent among many groups. I do have some familiarity with various chassidic texts myself ,though, and have yet to discover this belief as a condition of membership. Can you point to any authoritative text mandating this, or did you just make it up, Frau Katz ? And since when is belief in one's rebbe as moshiach (resurrected or otherwise) heresy ? Is this what your father taught you, Mrs. Bulvan-Katz ?

"Falsely stating that “all chasidim believe their rebbe is Moshiach” they then go on to argue that the only difference between Chabad and every other chassidus is “WHO IS THE REAL MOSHIACH?” and bring evidence that the Lubavitcher Rebbe has a far greater claim than the Gerrer, Bobover, or Satmarer Rebbe. If I say that no other chassidim make this claim about their rebbe, they look at me pityingly, thinking that I obviously don’t know anything about chassidus."
All you've proven is your incredible sloppiness as a 'researcher', as well as indeed confirming your total ignorance of chassidic history and it's key texts, not to mention hilchos shmiras-halashon. The rest of your drivel concerning what you claim to have heard from, in your own words, in a "lecture given by an extremist Lubavitcher woman here in NMB on the supposed “halachos of believing in Moshiach" and the like, is likewise, irrelevant, so I think we'd best move on to analyzing what could possibly have posessed you to slander so many Jews and their leader, certainly one of the greatest geonim in the last 500 years, especially as you say that ;
"I was also at a number of farbrengens in Crown Heights when the Rebbe was still alive (and yes, I understand Yiddish)and once spent Simchas Torah there in the early ’70’s. Chabad has changed tremendously since then (although there were some subtle hints even then of things to come.)" and you're such an expert on Chabad. Why won't you identify which of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's teaching you have a problem with, and point out why, halachically, you believe him to be wrong. It can't be so difficult for an erudite woman like you, 'Rebbetzin' Bulman-Katz, can it ? If you've identified 'kefira' where no other posek has been able to, don't you owe the torah-world some lessons - at a minimum 'lehafrishom meissura' ?!

4. Rebbetzin Katz's Grand Finale !

"It is impossible for you to tell me that they are not teaching small bits of sheker all the time, along with the truly outstanding work they do. I am very conflicted about all this, because I do honor them for what they do and I do acknowledge that no one else has people out in the field all over the world doing the work they do with such mesirus nefesh. The sheker is so small in comparison. Does it really matter? Does it matter if they teach “To believe in Moshiach you must have in mind an actual person, a name and a face”?
So what's the proof again, your refusal to believe otherwise, you brainwashed fool, or your willingness to accept some idiots version of what Chabad teaches, without bothering to actually study their texts with sources, and in context ? Would your father dare write anything this outrageously false - of-course not - he'd leave that to revisionists like David Orlofsky.... Speaking of your poor father- have rachmonus. He must be turning in his grave now, watching his daughter be "melagleg bedivrei chachomim"(see gemara B'B 75a). What do you think you could possibly be achieveing by leveling unsubtantiated charges of 'avoda-zarah', when by promoting strife and division, you have done much, much worse (Sifri, nosso 42, & Bereishit Rabba 38/7, but you knew that, didn't you, Rebbetzin') ?!

Now just wonder what the Chofetz Chaim would say about all this...,
"And many Lubs do NOT teach that, but only say, “Nu, what’s so bad about teaching that? Is it the end of the world if the picture of someone comes into my mind when I say Ani Ma’amin bevias hamoshiach?”

So is it 'Judaism by Consensus' that you seek, Toby Katz, or something else ?
Tell us again, why do you hate, and what is your halachic justification - clearly, please :-)

"Well, is it so bad?”
Yes, Mrs. Bulman-Katz, it really is so bad. Sinat-chinam is what ultimately led to the churban (hoyil d'ha ko hava yasbi rabbonon, etc.), and hate like yours is what is likely keeping the 3rd beit-hamikdash from descending. Shame on you.

Jake said...

This is simply another excuse for some good old lubavitch-bashing... doesn't it get boring after a while ?
Yes, there is an element of meshichism in lubavitch, and yes, they're distorting the Rebbe's teachings, and yes, there's b'h dirt to go around on all sides...so what ?
The same anti-semites bashing lubavitch now are the ones claiming (ludicrously) to have created the 'kiruv movement'. They've conveniently forgotten their hysterics of the late 50's, 60's, and even early 70's, when they were screeching about how chabad was focusing on the wrong things, and that kiruv was 'not the derech taught by the gedolim' !!
So now they sputter about 'yechi' - like any good anti-semite, they always have a logical 'explanation' for their hate.
Don't expect a fair shake from Yaakov Menken, when he's not busy denying rumors of abuse, he's busy parroting the only stuff he's been fed....it's called THE derech, one and only, all contrary evidence ignored !
Way to go, Yaakov baby - just hope nobody googles your name.

Chaim Tzvi said...

'Jake', 'Steve'
Nice Jewish names.Not.
Classic ignoramuses, bemoaning the 'chutzpah' to criticize Chabad while bad mouthing everybody else.
Remind me what Rav Shach is called in your neck of the world? How about R'Aharon Kotler?
Both men were leaders of the largest yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel and America!

Steve said...

Dear me, Chaim Tzvi, how typical...

You have nothing to answer, yet you're addicted to your hate-fest, so you try shooting the messenger. Which yeshiva taught you this 'derech' ?! This isn't about R'Schach, RAK, or anybody else. This is about sinas-chinam and trying to conceal that in your amaratzus, but it won't work. If you have a valid point to make, 'naysi sefer venechzeh', if not, at least learn to read. And JTS has a large yeshiva too, for many years it was much larger than lakewood - what does that prove, you fool ?

chaim T said...

When did JTS have a much larger yeshiva than Lakewood, when you attended there?
Sinas chinom=hatred for no reason.Don't think that's the case when discussing Lubab

Chanan said...

Mrs Katz is voicing an opinion that most frum Jews have about Lubavitch.Even Hershel had a post about the Modern Orthodox joining that camp.Do you guys seriously think that the negative opinion about Lubavitch is grounded in simple 'hate'?That this hate encompasses (spelling?)so many in the Orthodox crowd?
If I was Lubavitch I would look inward, stop shooting messengers and try and figure out what it is that turns people off so much.

Steve said...

NO, Chaim Tzvi, you incompetent, I didn't go to your yeshiva, I went to some where yiddishkeit is based on 'ma shekosuv besefer', and not your silly regurgitated drivel. If you don't have anything coherent to add, please stop polluting the board. If you have a substantial criticism of any point I've raised, I'd welcome the debate. Just don't forget to include marei-mekomos, so we can see the fruits of your wasted tuition.

Jake said...

How about "Joel Kolko", is that a nice jewish name, Chaimke, and more importantly, is that why you're so upset....were you in Torah Temima for too long...poor bubele :-(

Shmerel said...

Steve,
Well written, it’s a bit suprising that someone as yourself who is obviously a Chabadska should feel the need to go to such length to upshlug what a farvufena Rebbitzen has to say, unless she actually got you guys were it hurts!! Also in your debatable list of Gedolem that you claim had a Kesher with the LR (btw, is this taken from Volpa’s book) there is quite a number of them that made it very clear at a later date that they were not very fond of Lubavitz nor its leader. One more thing, take it easy on the hate, didn’t your Rebbe make a big deal about Ahavas Yisroel or does that only apply to people that aren’t frum.

Steve said...

Shmerel,
What got my gander up with this farvurfene 'Rebbetzin' was the incredible volume of blatant lies she repackages all over the web, and not only about Lubavitch. I have no particular issue with agendas, what gets me is ignorance dressed-up as intelligent authority. No, I took none of my information from Volpo's books (don't even own most of them), and I don't regard him as overly credible. I constructed most of the list from transcripts, and some from anecdotal information (also the sefer 'Btzel Hachochma' as a x-reference). If you have any relevant factual information, I would welcome it - but I have no use for 'ploni mipi ploni' unsubstantiated rumors. I have some very interesting papers I'll send H.Tzig soon to post, i'yh. You are right about chassidus emphasizing ahavas-yisroel, even for a marsha'as like Toby Katz. I am commanded to love (at least) the precious soul stuck under all that drek, and in this regard I am remiss. What can I say - I'm obviously not 'eishes Rebbi Meir...' and sometimes think that 'yitamu chotim'- and the drek does smell. I must confess, having stumbled across many some of her more slanderous accusations on various blogs, to be tempted to setup a full-blown expose....

Anonymous said...

Just thought you might find this info illustrating... when Rav Shteinman's children and grandchildren were in the states recently in a small town, they called upon the local shliach for assistance which he obviously provided happily as he does to every yid. They used his Mikva, drank his wine, davened in his minyan etc. etc.. My point being the Godol and his family have no animus to Chabad despite what some posters here might have you believe and thereby provide as legitimacy to championing the fight of the Gedolei Hador. Mecharchei Riv...ain chodosh tachas hashemesh..

Menashe said...

I am a Lubavitcher but that is really irrelevant for what I'd like to say.

The hate, on all sides r'l, is astonishing here. I happen to be a big anti and hate what the mishichistim are doing as well as the misnagdim that use this minority as an excuse to bash chabad. But even mainstream Lubavitch is at fault here. Not every piece of criticism is automatically lashon hara! Gevult!

Rabosai, when in our history has sinas chinam worked out well for us? The challenge is to love the Yid whose actions you completely disagree with. For me that means the tzfatim and chabad bashers.

We need moshiach more than ever!

MIRIAM D said...

I know Toby Katz very well and think you guys should take it easy on her. She has a very difficult life ------------------ in different ways. ---------------------------. But she also helped a lot of people even if she does love to fight, so to each their own.
EDITED BY HT

SaygecArossBaczi said...

Toby Bulman Katz is just plain jealous.
It does not even pay to respond to the Toby Katz's (and Failed Messiah's, and t613's) of this world. While we do have some bad apples like everyone else (and I know some of them all too well), they do not define us. Our Rebbe did not preach hate; that was NOT the case with someone who screamed "from what are they Jews" in a football stadium to cheering crowds.

EDITED BY H T

barak said...

Seems like the famous Itzik S. has come back from the cold

SaygecArossBaczi said...

Hirschel - if you are not going to keep the most important part of my comment, which is WHY Toby is jealous - that her father failed utterly in Migdal HaEmek while Chabad (and of course R' Itche-Dovid Grossman) is succeeding, then pls take it down as there is no point to the comment.

Thanks!

LA DUDE said...

ever heard the camp izzy song, LA circa 1998
" I'm a chosid and I'm proud and i'll sing it out loud, cuz the rebbes always watching over me"

care to explain?

Nachum said...

>>Consider also the gravity of the sin of loshon-hora in a public place, and that according to the Gemara, Rambam etc, Toby Katz and her ilk have forfeited their place in the world-to-come. As she besmirches an unknown quantity of Jews before an unquantifiable audience, she has rendered it impossible to beg forgiveness from all those she slandered, even in the (unlikely?) event of 'yaare aleha ruach mimorom' (see the Rambam hil. Teshuva ch.4, and also the gemara in B"M 58b, where such behavior is likened to murder).

Why did the Rebbe not think of this when he maliciously spurned the Chazon Ish?

Steve, your posts are so full of hypocricy that it is impossible to take any of your so called substance seriously. You vilify a choshuve Rebbetzin who did much for the klal while censuring her for daring to bemoan well documented problems in Chabad. You resort to ad hominum attacks to others who dare respond to you.

And I don't believe your bubbe maaseh about people being ignorant in shulchan aruch in Lakewood. Go back to 770, and focus your negative energy there.

Anonymous said...

All I see here is Lubavitch hate for objective facts. And the fact that Lubavitchers decry others for hating when the opposite is so obvious is very telling.

minkatcher aynikle said...

Reb Yoelish was menachem ovel the Lubavitcher Rebbe???

Anonymous said...

OF COURSE NOT!!! Steve is lying through his teeth. The Rebbe was regarded as an eccentric from the very begining by almost everybody. Steve has to cite obscure people to support his apologetics. Pay littler attention to it.

Anonymous said...

"chabadniks talk of the rebbe-some of them-in the sense that this is what we believed when the rebbe was alive and we are not about to change". yes i realize that this is difficult to comprehend but that's the way it is"
quite apart from the from the gobbledegook, is it "them" or "we" my dear hirshel???

Milhouse said...

Yes, he was. Don't be so surprised.

Steve said...

Nachum;
So the LR 'spurned' the Chazon-Ish ?!
Who set up the date, you idiot ?! Your incompetence is on full display, granted- but can't you at least learn some basic English ? Or was that part of your tuition wasted as well... Oh, and the word is 'ad hominem'. You seem unable to read a straight line, Nachum, among your other obvious deficiencies. I asked your favourite 'rebbitzen' where she found a heter to publicly smear thousands of Jews with the very serious charges of "sheker & avoda-zarah". Unlike moronic parrots like you and your ilk, I cited the relevant halachic source forbidding this, and wondered how a believing Jew could so flippantly dispose of their Olam-Haba.
Now get back on the prozac, you idiot, while you find where I said anything about "ignorance of Shulchan Aruch in Lakewood" ?!?

Steve said...

Actually, it went both ways. When R' Yoel was sitting shiva for his daughter Chaya Roza, who passed away on 10/23/53, the LR went to be menachem-ovel the following Wednesday, 10/28/53. The transcript reveals a very interesting conversation about the status of Halloween, which was that week (whether it's an inyan of a"z, or stam a "kinder-spiel"), and nittel (regarding the different options for when nittel actually is). R'Yoel then asked the LR's opinion regarding whether he personally should say kaddish for his daughter all 11 months, or whether it was enough that his son-in-law say kaddish until the shloshim. The LR then spoke about the benefits of saying kaddish all 11 months, especially al-pi-kabbolo (he quoted various kabbalistic sources). As this was going on, a certain litvishe R'Y entered (I haven't yet been able to substantiate who) and asked what was being discussed ? R' Yoel waved his hand, and said that 'these concepts, inyanei kabbolo, are not shayech to you'. R' Yoel then asked the LR's opinion regarding the time of hakomas-hamatzeva, and the LR nswered that the minhag chabad is to put it up asap after the shiva.

I'll post details of when R' Yoel was menachem-ovel the LR soon.

Steve said...

The Lubavitcher Rebbe's mother passed away on shabbos-shuva, 9/12/64. The LR only sat shiva for about 48 hours, as the levaya was on Sunday morning.
Among the many famous people to be menachem-ovel was the Satmarer Rebbe, R' Yoel. Here is a partial transcript of what was discussed:*
The LR asked about an ovel going to the mikve before mincha on erev-yom-kippur. The SR responded that an ovel certainly does go, whereas the LR remarked that the Shulchan-Aruch doesn't say this (SA says that rechitza/tevilla should be delayed as much as possible, "somuch l'chashecha"). He then went on to comment that the only time we find erev-yomtov being 'docheh aveilus' is on erev-yom-kippur. The difference being that whereas with other y'tovim, the chag itself is 'docheh', e'yomkipur itself has the din of a yomtov, as evidenced by our saying al-chet at mincha. The SR then observed that in light of this, we must say that at mincha there is no din of aveilus at all, because at shachris we don't say tachnun, and the fact that we do say it at mincha demonstrates that "sha'as hamincho has a din chodosh".
For a rather fascinating account of Rav YB Soloveitchik's shiva-visit, see; http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/529444/jewish/The-Rebbe-and-the-Rav.htm

*[Obviously any errors in the translation are my own]

Proud Chabad Shliach said...

i was very impressed by steve's lengthy comment. i am a shliach of the LR for many years and i never look in blogs. one of my balei batim showed me R Moshe Weis's post and at the same time I have read Toby Katz's venemous tirade as well as many other comments. i wanted very much to respond but while i was taking my time i saw steve's response and it was a breath of fresh air. most of what he wrote i wanted to write. even though he did a great job allow me reiterate a couple of his points and add a couple more.
1. after glancing albeit superficially at the blog. one could get an impression ( both from the haters as well as from the moderator himself ) that most frume yiden out there hate and look down at lubavitch. it probably is true in the world of blogs because those people who spew venom here are obviously have very little connection to torah learning, real knowledge and real values. but fortunately most of the torah world doesnt live in the blog world. i will give you 2 personals examples. being a shliach in a city which is blessed with many visitors from overseas we have every shabos a full table of guests ( usually 20 - 40 )which are made up of memmbers of my community as well as visitors from eretz yisroel, usa, canada, europe etc who look up chabad whenever they travel. i know that chabad haters will have us believe that these visitors really hate us and only pretend to be nice because they need us ( what a negative way to judge people ) but thes people continue their yachas and even friendship with us, discuss their views, even ask intelligent questions on chabad hashkofa and in many cases continue to contact me with their shailes etc ( i am a rov / moire hoiroo and a dayan ). i can tell you that majority of people out there have a very deep respect for the rebbe, chabad and the role they play in the jewish world today.
in my work as a dayan i have regular contact and friendships with world poskim and dayonim in the usa and especially in eretz yisroel. the vast majority ( rubom kekulom ) are in awe from the rebbe ( r' z"n goldberg, rav sherman, rav amar, r' mordechai eliohu, rav basri - i could make an astronomical list but iam sure that the haters on the blogs wouldnt even know who i am talking about. after steve made his list all they answered was with 2 names - r aron kotler and r shach. here ends their knowledge of the torah world - actually rav basri told me recently that he visited the rebbe with the rabonim haroshim years ago and had other shaiches and he considers the rebbe to be "pele hador" with a knowledge of kol hatorah kulo without an eual. )i was asked by many of them i speak to, to clarify certain points of belief - what is a meshichist - does he pray to the rebbe r"l etc but these questions are asked with a desire to understand the facts and not to knock chabad which they respect. bt"w rav amar did megayer 3-4 yrs ago a girl who told him she believes the rebbe is moshiach and he is biding his time now only because of the shallow sensationalism made out of the issue.
2. a very important point made by steve was that all of the spewers of hate cliches dont cite any mekoros for these cliches. "belief outside normative judasim, crazy belief, avoda zorah " etc etc. ribono shel olom - these people havent opened a seifer in their life ( maybe some english artscroll ) for sure they cant read rashi oisies. steve points out so correctly that no gedolei yisroel condemned belief in a moshiach min hameism because the soutces are full of it. in fact according to many sources its not only a possibility but a probability. and even if some sources are against it ( i havent found one including the rambam but thats not for this argument ) does it make those that follow the other mekoros kofrim? the rebbe belived zionism to be wrong - did he look down upon or condemn as kofrim the ribui zionist rabonim who came to see him? do we pasel zionsit geirim or geirim converted by zionist dayonim?
the truth is that the hate has nothing to do with moshiach or meshichistn. i recall clearly david berger bashing chabad over 25years ago ( i think then mivtza neiros shabos koidesh was his target ). here you have a man who clearly knows much more about christianity than about serious torah learning ( that's a quote from rabbi aron soloveichik z"l- he asked not to repeat this because he said that berger " dergeyt em di yoren " but now that r aron is in oilom hoemes he can no longer be intimidated)condemns an eide kedoisho of jews when no serious poisek condemned this belief. on the other hand rav aron soloveichik, rav hirshprung, rav pinchas menchaem of ger ( his words are on tape ) and many others told people to leave chabad alone on that belief and that there plenty of mekoros to justify its legitimacy ).
3. the problem that i had with R moshe weis's post ( even though there is much truth to what he writes ) was that by saying how much he or others dont mention moshiach does not and will not take away from the questions on chabad. after all people do see the rebbes sichos, answers, even public yechi on video. all they will say that r moshe weiss is doing some damage control on the situation the rebbe created. we cant escape the fact that the rebbe did say that the main aspect of shlichus is moshiach ( i dont dare to tell my fellow shluchim how, when and in which way to do it G-d forbid ) but for a shliach to proclaim proudly that there is " no hint of moshiach in a chabad house " does not deal with the real issues of chabad bashing.
i am personally uncomfortable with some of the "style " of some of the tzfat meshichistn. but they are not so relevant in the eyes of normal thinking people who always respected chabad just as breslov are respected even if someone may not aprove or understand na nach etc.but my discomfort with them is not their belief - its their behaviour that doesnt achieve the goals that even they profess.
The few people who became known as elokistn or boreinu etc - i dont know even close to a minyan of those - they were denounced publically and in print by all the most famous meshichist rabonim including axelrod, volpe etc etc.
as far as the argument that i saw on the blog that any belief in rebbe moshiach should be banned even if its not osur - because it may lead to these meshugoim elokisten - thus reminds me of shulamit aloni who wanted to ban megilas ester because she believed it led to boruch goldstein and many other freie jews who blame yidishkeit for the few meshugoim that developed along the way.
4.the negative comments that followed steve's post did much to prove his point. not a word of torah, not a source. sweeping statements that every person that has any connection to the world of torah knows how far from the truth they are. again the same mantra - the rebbe kavayochol was mevaze the chazon ish and r shach. how rediculous. the rebbe quoted chazon ish which is a sign of respect ( re his shita in kav hataarich) with r shach the rebbe only responded a few times on his negative comments. with the vast majority of gedoei yisroel it was mutual respect and admiration. the rebbe made remarks of admiration re reb moshe and vice versa. reb shloimo zalman oierbach call the rebbe a melech and nosi in a printed signed letter ( if i would know how to scan it onto this blog i would ) all these things are facts that can be shown. instead we face the same monotonous hateful statement which have no proof but are written as facts.
5. this lange megila i have written not for the haters - they really are not interested in the emes. i am writing for all those that would like to see things beyond the sina portrayed here and also for those that may come to an erroneous conclusion that the negativity towards chabad on the blog/s is B"H not the reality of the jewish world we live in.

Nochum said...

Nachum;
So the LR 'spurned' the Chazon-Ish ?!
Who set up the date, you idiot ?!

There you go again. Another vicious ad hominum attack. How convenient.

>>Your incompetence is on full display, granted--

See above.

>>but can't you at least learn some basic English ?

See above.

By the way--for your edification:

spurn /spɜrn/
–verb (used with object)
1. to reject with disdain; scorn.
2. to treat with contempt; despise.
3. to kick or trample with the foot.
–verb (used without object) 4. to show disdain or contempt; scorn something.
–noun 5. disdainful rejection.
6. contemptuous treatment.
7. a kick.

An honest man would know what to write. . .

>>Or was that part of your tuition wasted as well...

See above.

>>Oh, and the word is 'ad hominem'. You seem unable to read a straight line, Nachum, among your other obvious deficiencies.

See above.

>> I asked your favourite 'rebbitzen' where she found a heter to publicly smear thousands of Jews with the very serious charges of "sheker & avoda-zarah". Unlike moronic parrots like you and your ilk, I cited the relevant halachic source forbidding this, and wondered how a believing Jew could so flippantly dispose of their Olam-Haba.

I brought up the LR's loshon horah of a meis up in connection with your quotes. She is not my rebetzin, I have never had anything to do with her. I am just pointing out your inappropriate behavior (and irony) in lambasting her for her so-called mistakes.

For the balance of your . . . comment. . . See above.

>>Now get back on the prozac, you idiot, while you find where I said anything about "ignorance of Shulchan Aruch in Lakewood" ?!?

See above.

I don't think I have ever encountered someone who has to throw so many insults into "comments." Do I have to bring up citations to explain why your behavior is wrong, or are you aware of it, already? Or maybe this is what avodah zarah (gaavah and kaas) can do to someone. . .

Shmuel said...

One thing I don't get is the incredible nastiness on the part of Steve and Moshe Weiss AND their demand for respect!!! They are so full of hate, its frightening.

minkatcher aynikle said...

I am amazed that the SR and the LR were menachem ovel each other.
Couldn't they have discussed Nishtakcho Toras Habesh"t or other points of disagreement?(Don't give me its not meinyonei aveilus)
Did LR come to his levaya?

Anonymous said...

I said this before and I will say this again: I am extremely skeptical about the veracity of the conversation the Rebbe reportedly had with the SR. I think its all made up. I saw a book recently which records "conversations" the Rebbe had with gedolei yisreol--as you can imgaine he is always explaining things to otherwise completely befuddled gedolim. It just makes no sense.

Anonymous said...

To the demented fool, the proud shliach:

>>actually rav basri told me recently that he visited the rebbe with the rabonim haroshim years ago and had other shaiches and he considers the rebbe to be "pele hador" with a knowledge of kol hatorah kulo without an eual. )i was

Even if I were to believe someone like yourself--an individual who obviously never opened a sefer in his entire life and is hater--Rabbi Basri is not impressive enough nor capable of discerning who is a great talmid chochom.

The Rebbe's quote is quoted b'ksav. I don't have to quote because its public knowledge. Since you are someone who would actually lie about the Rambam's shita on Moshiach, I don't think quoting a source would mean anything--as you cannot read Hebrew and lack basic comprehension.

Steve does a great disservice to this blog and to Chabad. Aside from the fact that he is thouroughly disgusting person, he shows that Chabad is the hater. And people like you demonstrate that chabadniks have no problem lying.

Steve lies about who respects the Rebbe, as do you. The fact is he had little to do with anyone who was his equal or greater because he was jealous of them and hated all Jews who were not chassidish--as is demonstrated by his evil motzi shem rah on the Chazon Ish.,

proud shliach said...

thank you anonymous
your learned comment full of sources certainly states our case.
yasher koyech!

proud shliach said...

by the way
the anonymous probably thought that i meant rav basri the mekubal - i meant rav ezra basri who is considered migdoyley hadayonim in e"y mechaber of a 4 volume diney momones and shu"t shaarey ezra. but then the anonymous wouldnt know

Anonymous said...

No, you would not know that there are tens of similar seforim and Rav Basri does not demonstrate himself to be remarkable enough to determine the so-called greatness of a false messiah. But then you would not know that because you cannot learn, hate the Torah, and utterly despise Hashem.

proud shliach said...

as everyone would have noticed i do not address anonymous but all the other readers - i never intended to convince the like of him. just a few concluding points.
1. he picks on one name and totally disregards everything else- like printed letters of admiration by r moshe feinstein and r shlomo zalman oyerbach and anything else he cannot dispute.
2. he calls anyone who diagrees with him vicious names etc and calls us haters even though we dont hate any group - we just expose our haters - while they truely do hate. but then the chazal already paskened - kol hapoisel bemumoi poisel.
3. again - anonymous and his like are people who live in the la la land of the blog world and fortunately the real world is not like them.
kol tuv

LEYB EGER said...

To the best of my knowledge, the Rebbe never really gave too much time to the "nishtakcho toras haBesht" shitto, other than to briefly dismiss it (well knwon that most chassidic groups don't hold of it - certainly not lubavitch) when it was mentioned by the Belzer Rebbe during his meeting with the Rebbe in the yechidus Steve mentioned above.

As for the 'anonymous' chachomim repeating their nonsense and ignorance about the Rebbe's well-documented admiration by the vast majority of gedolim from all kreizen - you really need to come up with some sources for this slander. You see, in this age of audio and video, too many people have seen the evidence of this tremendous, mutual kovod, to take you seriously. Just because you may have been brainwashed, don't expect anybody else to buy it. Soon you'll tell us all the videos are fake too, right ? LOL

Anonymous said...

Tzig, you ought to post my clarification. Its inappropriate to allow Proud gaavah's ranting while preventing innocent expositers of the truth from explaining the facts as they are.

nochum said...

Tzig, where is his clarification?

Hirshel Tzig said...

NOTE: comments calling others "GOY" will be deleted.

shmuel said...

Actually, steve makes a lot of sense. He sounds like he's done real research though none of his info is original. It can mostly be found on the web

Anonymous said...

>>As for the 'anonymous' chachomim repeating their nonsense and ignorance about the Rebbe's well-documented admiration by the vast majority of gedolim from all kreizen - you really need to come up with some sources for this slander. You see, in this age of audio and video, too many people have seen the evidence of this tremendous, mutual kovod, to take you seriously. Just because you may have been brainwashed, don't expect anybody else to buy it. Soon you'll tell us all the videos are fake too, right ? LOL

Laugh at yourself: The sicha where he publicly maligned a mes is not only public knowledge, its on this blog. You can choose to remain in your empty, brainwashed state and refuse to acknowledge the fct that the Rebbe hated everyone who is not chasssidish--that's up to you. Those who know a little better than you are laughting at YOU.

Tzig, you are a hypocrite. calling someone a goy is worse than all the things steve and the proud shotah said? Of course not. You just don't want people to defend themselves. But, as others noted, I don't need to. The Proud Shotah demonstrated how incredibly sadistic, short sighted and without pnimius he is with his hypocricy.

Anonymous said...

Steve makes no sense; his research is inadequate and he contradicts himself by violating the very precepts he chastises others for violating! Moreover, he comes across as a menuval. His writing is sloppy, his reasoning misapplies, and his overall tone is very childish and immature. And Proud Baal Gaavah sounds like a complete nutjob!!! Everything Nochum and Ananomous said is established beyond a question of a doubt. Steve and Proud Menuval lie through their teeth throughout the redunandabt, simplistic posts. I see no validity, Tzig, in preventing others from defending themselves--your selective sensitivity (always when it ironically abets bashing a non-chabadnik) notwithstanding.

SaygecAroszBaczi said...

At the end of the day, I really do not care who respected the Rebbe and who did not. I know what the Rebbe achieved when he was with us and what his heirs, the shluchim and chassidim, continue to accomplish today. The yellow flag nonsense, bad though it is, is only a testimony to Chabad ahavas yisroel, because in any other kreiz far less objectionable behavior than that would be dealt with in a violent way that violates several precepts of both Torah and secular law.

Yes, the Rebbe sure was considered "eccentric" at the beginning and then everyone copied his initiatives - some for sincere reasons and others because they realized that "kiruv" can be turned into a great business if handled the "right" (as in wrong and cynical) way.

And sorry, but the Rebbe never disparaged the Chazon Ish. No idea which sewer anyone dredged that piece of nonsense from. The only remote connection I can think of is that Chabad does not hold by the Chazon Ish in terms of weights and measures but that does not imply disrespect.

michael said...

True. I think the reason Chabad is so successful all over the world and with so many people, is because they really do care, and people see that. I'm just wondering if there was any other gadol over the last 50 years who was as involved with BOTH the frum & the non-frum, as the lubavicher rebbe ?
It's clear that, (outside of brooklyn, perhaps) his followers are reaping the rewards of his caring about ALL Jews, with their success.
Continue the great work !!
Michael Corzin

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch has absolutely no connection with the frum world outside of Lubavitch.

Jake said...

To 'anonymous', 'anonymous', nachum, et al.
Guys, if all you can manage are some stupid, zombie-like repetitions of your brainwashing program, go do it somewhere else, and get a life. Everyone else here makes logical arguments to support their case, whereas all you idiots spew is invective. It's take a rachmonus if you were abused, but NOT OUR FAULT. Go back to Kolko, Margulies, or Weinberg, and complain to them ? Why do we have to suffer ? Or go argue in Tora Temimah or Ner Yisroel, with your co-victims, NOT here.

Anonymous said...

I would agree with "jame" aka steven. Only it applies to you. Despite that fact that Nachum and Anonmous made very sound, logical arguments, ALL Steve and Proud sshoteh were able to do was throw out ridiculous insults back. Look at Steve's "responses." Look at the ridiculous, asssinine assumptions made by "Proud" Shoteh. The fact that you lack the capacity to discern a meaningful, substantive argument indicates that you are probably not on the level to argue with me, but, nevertheless, I feel compelled, as a Jew, to help you.

Both Steve and Proud Shoteh were rambling and made complete fools out of themselves. If you claim they were logical, it says mountains of things about you.

Anonymous said...

. . .And your gratuitious mention of Kolko and everyone else has no relevance, either. But, hey, with your definition of logic (which means anything which supports hating non-chabad Jews) it works!

Should I bring up abuse problems in Chabad, now? Or do you want to desisting from throwing stones?

Arthur said...

It is a well known fact that Reb Aaron Kotler cast very definite aspersions on the Rebbi Rayatz IN PUBLIC,Berabim. So lets be a little self critical before we start throwing around accusations. I had no intention of even mentioning this but I couldn't resist when I constantly see a Lie repeated ad nauseum about the Rebbi and the Chazon Ish. Perhaps some posters think as the Nazis did or the Arabs do that when you say a lie long enough it becomes fact.

Anonymous said...

It is wel known that the Rebbe cast away definite aspersions on the CI IN PUBLIC after the CI was niftar. So lets be a little self critical before we start throwing around accusations. I had not intention of even mentioning this but I couldn't resist when I constatantly see a LIE repeated ad nauseum about R' Ahron and the Rayatz. Perhaps you are like a Nazi and believe that if you say a lie long enough it becomes facts.

leyb eger said...

Whoever the anonymous 'expert' is...
You really need to start substantiating some of what you allege with at least SOME hard facts. I mean time, dates, places, textual references, etc. In this regard you could actually learn from Steve. Otherwise you make no useful contribution, and will be taken as seriously as any 'mikve shmuess'. And PLEASE get a name, any name...

Yid with a Yiddishe name (unlike Steve) fromerly known as Anonomous said...

The sicha in on this blog. I stated that here at least once. And I have nothing to learn from Steve--nothing positive, anyway.

Yid with a Yiddishe Name Formerly known as Anonomous said...

I love how you don't make mention of Leyb Eiger's failure to provide a quote. But, hey, what's does that have to do with anything, right? RIGHT!?!?!

Arthur said...

How come you did not publish my last two posts? Do you think that they were to confrontational?I think that the posts of "anonomous are much more so.
asher770 formerly known as Arthur

Hirshel Tzig said...

they were either

a) stupid
b) lies
c) provided too much info
d) all of the above

Arthur said...

All I basically asked you is why do you give "anonomous" a platform with which to bash the Rebbi? Chassidim is one thing,even though the "Snags" have a lot baggage to,but the rebbe? There are plenty of blogs out there that would welcome his type of rhetoric.Why is this stupid? Do you allow him to post his rantings because of freedom of speech?

Hirshel Tzig said...

sorry. I must've confused you with someone else. Are you sure I deleted comments from you???

Arthur said...

I submitted two different posts responding to anonomous.Neither of them were posted to the blog.

Yechiel said...

Yid with a Yiddishe name makes excellent points and responses to the ramblings of Proud and some fellow who uses a goyishe name.