Friday, June 13, 2008

Don't Be Fresh, Woman!

Here's the issue I have with this. My sisters went to Bais Yaakov and worked hard on subjects like Chumash and Ramban. They had tests and finals, and took it very seriously. Yet, now we have the "Gadol HaDor" putting them down, essentially telling them that all that hard work was for naught, and that all they really needed to learn in the hallowed halls that Sara Schnierer built was to make kugel. I know that had that happened to me I'd be miffed at the man that tells me that, Gadol HaDor or not.


Pearls of Wisdom...


Rebuked them gently? Excuse Me?! And where did he see them trying to make a point to him?!


(Cover of the Book)

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is not usually how the story is told, and I agree that it does make Maran HaRav Shach sound "harsh" (which fits in well with the erroneous Chabad caricature of HaRav Shach).

The story is normally told as follows:
The girls came in with their questions on Ramban, to which he did not answer. He sat them down and offered them some cookies that were on the table. He then asked them if they liked the cookies, to which they politely answered "yes". He then said that his Rebitzen made them and that they sould go to the kitchen and the Rebetzin will show them the recipe.

A little more "gentle", won't you say...

berl, crown heights said...

Tzig, must you always be מלמד חובה ? I am sure he didn't mean to denigrate the well-meaning girls, he was just probably afraid he couldn't explain the Ramban, so he got himself out of a potentially embarrassing situation (for the sake of protecting כבוד התורה ) with joke... Why jump to a conclusion that he was really an uncouth moron he appeared to be?

Menatzpach said...

Trolling for snags today, Hirshel?

;)

Josh said...

I have a different girsah of the story as well.
מורינו, כדרכו בקודש put down sponge cake in front of these two maidelach. He asked them "do you like the sponge cake?"
they replied "yes, its incredible"
And רבינו הגדול responded "when you can make a sponge cake like this, you can come back."

Anonymous said...

A little more "gentle", won't you say...

Not really. You've made a distinction that makes no difference. Isn't one of the darchei Torah to "Shoeil keinyan umeishiv kehalachah"? Cookies and kugel do not an answer on a Rambam make.

Suffice to say, you cannot claim that a caricature is "erroneous" if the evidence presented by a nominally sympathetc source supports it.

yehupitz said...

Ah! One of the first stories that turned me off to that man. And I'm no feminist.

The Bray of Fundie said...

I don't think that maran z"l was criticizing the girls limud or even the curriculla at Bais Yaakov. He was gently mussaring them for their hubris.

One doesn't approach the Gadol Hador with a question on the Ramban in Chumash. Weren't there phalanxes of mid-level Rebitzens and talmidei Khakhomim capable of providing them with an adequate, intellectually sastisfying answer?

It seems to me that these young ladies took themselves WAY too seriosly and the best antidote for baal dimyon baal gaaivahs is to put them in their place.

It is a cautionary tale to all self-important nudniks, male and female alike.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:25 - The story was not meant to dispel the "erroneous caricature", there are thousands of other stories that do that. Do a little research.

All that was pointed out is that the tone was not harsh in any way.

Now, if you have a problem with the fact that he didn't answer them, then obviously you missed the point to the whole episode.

There is no din of "Meishiv K'Halacha" in answering a girl a kasha on a Ramban. If people think that there is, then the Bais Yaakov system have done a splendid job of brainwashing today's society.

Anonymous said...

"The story was not meant to dispel the "erroneous caricature...All that was pointed out is that the tone was not harsh in any way."

Far worse than screaming at a child or hitting him the worst thing a teacher or parent can do is to ignore them. Yet, this is exactly what happened in this story. His tone may not have been harsh but his actions were undeniably so.

"There is no din of "Meishiv K'Halacha" in answering a girl a kasha on a Ramban..."

Okay, Reb Boki-In-Hilchos-Talmud-Torah, what is the mokor for not "answering a girl a kasha on a Ramban" or any other sefer for that matter? S'iz Pasht nischt!? What would have been wrong with simply referring her on to her local Rebbe/Rebbetzin/Mashpia?

Guravitzer said...

Tzig, berl's comment needs to be elevated to an Update to the post...

chaim said...

Berl
You speak in a very disrespectful way of a man respected by thousands.That is your choice.What I don't understand is how you get so angry when anybody speaks without the proper derech eretz about the Rebbe.
That is being hypocritical.

Stories can so easily be twisted out of context as you are well aware when you see what the Meshichists have done to the Rebbes teachings

Anonymous said...

Based on those who know his derech, would R' Shach have answered the question if it had been posed by 2 bochrim?
KT
Joel Rich

Avi said...

This story is obviously not accurate but what amazes me is that a respected chareidi rosh yeshiva found time for two young ladies in his very busy schedule!The only other person I know who would have allowed this was the Rebbe z'l before the heart attack.

Friendly anonymous said...

If there is no Kugel when I come home from work today, I will be most disconcerted. However, if my wife learnt the Ramban and had a kashe, I could live with that :)

Maran had ruach hakodesh and say what problems the current chareidi chinuch system would cause for girls in shiduchim. Witness the weekly episode of the "shidduch crisis" in the pages of the Yated. Each Bais ya'akov needs only a few new kinderkarten teachers each year, but every husband needs a wife who knows how to cook food to his taste.

Minkatcher Ainikle said...

You must be learning todays Daf Yomi or just remember your Sotah from a few weeks ago.

bored said...

Doesn't anyone get bored by all this back and forth?

"Rov Shach was evil/stupid/uncouth!"
"Chabadskers worship a dead man!"

Over and over and over again. Doesn't it get stale writing the same posts/comments again and again? I'm not just talking about this blog but Jewish blogs in general where any topic involving Shach/Chabad/Rebbe shows up.

There have to be more interesting things to discuss such as the history post or even aspects of Chabad Chasidus. Why this?

snag said...

As usual, Hirshel is following the Lubavitcher mehalech in trying to denigrate גאון עזנו, מאור עינינו, מורנו הגדול והדגול זצוקלל"ה.

Not having been there, I can't say for certain exactly what happened, but clearly Hirshel is reaching here with his agenda, when he says that מרן זי"ע was "telling them that all that hard work was for naught, and that all they really needed to learn in the hallowed halls that Sara Schnierer built was to make kugel".

The mayseh was with seminary girls. מרן זי"ע wanted them to have chasseneh and be meikim botim ne'emonim in Klal Yisroel, so he discouraged their being nayseih vinaysein in the Ramban, יותר מדאי. He did not tell them to stop learning it בּכלל, he just didn't want them to get carried away too far, as if they were Yeshiva bochurim of sorts. He did not say to transform all the Beis Yankevs into Kugel academies immediately.

There may have been other circumstances too which caused מורנו הגדול to respond as he did as well.

Of course, to paraphrase the Chofetz Chaim zt"l, to those who are not מאמינים in רבּינו הגדול there are no answers, un fun dem 'kashe' zei fallen avek, chotsh dem vos di velt zogt az פון א קשיא שטארבּט מען ניט.

Hirshel Tzig said...

nice to see the Emunas Chachomim of our Yeshivishe brethren.

berl, crown heights said...

You speak in a very disrespectful way of a man respected by thousands.

I just can't ever get it right, can I? Here I go out on the limb defending the man, and all you can do is criticize..

Shimon said...

Just few points:

1. In all version I know, the girls did not ask a halachic shaila but about lomdus

2. He answered what he hold is Halacha. You might disagree but he had solid sources and is not the only one. Look here:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13084425&postID=6036244004492731385&isPopup=true

3. He answered in a way many people consider witty. It is subjective, as is the Kotsker witt. Take or leave.

shimon said...

Sorry, the link is

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1185789791242

vu den? said...

Once upon a time.....
A long time ago, like maybe twenty years ago, somebody,a rov in fact asked a rebbe a question.His question was quite reasonable in fact:A large group of Orthodox Jews had decided that a certain mitzva does not apply today because of 'makifin debinah',since the idea that the Torah changes is alien to halacha, he wanted an explanation.
Well,well....It's all on tape.After some well to do Jews in Toronto were chided, to put it mildly,and, actually they had nothing to do with the question, anyway after a long angry harangue the rov was sent packing.Without an answer.
Now his chasidim have a problem with others.
Go figure.

Anonymous said...

Yehupitz
Sounds like you don't like Rav Shach.
Did you ever meet him? Did you decide all on your own?

Anonymous said...

If we are forced to believe stories brought down about Rav Shach, can we also believe the amazing stories of chesed,mesiras nefesh, noisei be'ol im chaveiro and his unbelievable hasmodo??
If we can I can live with some maysehs such as these.
You,Tzig are just looking to badmouth so you pounce on one or two silly stories.
But see, in the regular Jewish world, leaders are not infallible .I would quote Sefer Hachinuchs' words on The Ramba'm in one of the few places were he differs with his opinion, but it's a waste of time on your ilk who believe in Saints.

Friendly anonymous said...

I heard a different version today: Rav Shach said "google", and he wanted the girls to go into hi-tech. It's not his fault that they had food on their minds.

Anonymous said...

Whether the story itself is true or not, the author did not do his due dilligence....I just checked www.uspto.gov, and it does not appear that R' Shach holds a trademark in warmth and smile...

Rebbetzin said...

While you argue back and forth for the Kovod of Harav Shach, I have a different question.

What DO you think of women learning?

Friendly Anon said:
If there is no Kugel when I come home from work today, I will be most disconcerted. However, if my wife learnt the Ramban and had a kashe, I could live with that :)

Is it just funny, or is it the way most men feel? Women can learn all they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with what women were REALLY created for.
Which is, to make kugel of course.

One other question - what happens if you come home, and discovered that your wife made a bracha on the dough that she made which was only 3 lbs? or used the same spices for both meatballs and mac and cheese because she didn't know that acc. to halacha steam carries the taste?

Mottel said...

Vu Den -your ignorance and hate aside- you words might have had a point had the girls come with some foul agenda, as did that individual some time back.
Had they come to bother shach, with know true desire to hear an answer, then his failure to reply to the point would be understood.
But then again, all of this would apply only if we put you ignorance on the side . . .

shloime miller said...

To all you pious frauds enjoying life in fantasyland....'vu den' and his ilk;
Anyone remotely familiar with Rav Shach and most of what he had to say, knows that his was a message of vicious criticism, mean politics, and primitive hate - not exactly the 'ahavas yisroel machine', if you get his drift.... Here are a few sample lines of what this man was all about, quoted from his own writings;
Here is Maran on.....

Rabbi Joseph Baer Soloveitchik

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim (Bnei Brak, 5848 -5755), vol. 4 pages 36-40. [RS’s article is full] “of things that it is forbidden to hear”. See also ibid. p. 107 [in reference to RS’s work: “the book contains heresy, in the literal sense of the word. The mind is boggled by such a sight”.

It must be emphasized that Rabbi Shach was strongly apposed to communal disharmony, as he himself asserted many times. Yet, in such a situation he felt compelled to speak out in order to safeguard the Jewish heritage. For Rabbi Shach it was better to cause ruptures in the Jewish community than to allow thousands of Jewish hearts and minds to be poisoned by RS heresy.


Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz

Rabbi Shach, Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 65-7. [In a letter written two days before Rosh HaShanah in the year 5749]: “…All his works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”

See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought. See also ibid. p. 28-9. Rabbi Shach explained that he was not lacking in Ahavas Yisrael.On the contrary he was saving the souls of all the Jewish people who had the potential to be influenced by the impure works of rabbi Steinsaltz.


Rabbi Shlomo Goren

Rabbi Shach Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, vols.1-2, pp.73-4; vol. 6, pp.78-9. “He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers. One must mourn for the Sefer Torah that was burned”.

Rabbi Shach acknowledged that Rabbi Goren claimed that he was not violating the law and had authored a book in which he justifies his opinion. However, although he himself had not read it, those who had, had informed him that it was no more than “a joke, falsification of facts and lies”.

Rabbi Yehudah Levi

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vol. 1, pp. 107-8. [Book expressing ‘Hirschian’ philosophy was banned and the author severely chastised for expressing views that are held to be wrong in certain circles.]


Religious Zionists

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vols.1-2, pp.75-6. [Although Rabbi Shach was most passionate in his views on the secular Israelis, he also inveighed heavily against religious Zionists (or ‘quasi aggudists’: “agguda’im le-machatzeh”). Rabbi Shach once said:] “I am compelled to tell you”, that they are essentially no different. It is “the same pot” of Tereifah meat; “the only difference is that their [the religious Zionist’s] pot is covered with a knitted yarmulke (Kippah Serugah)!” Religious Zionists have done nothing for the benefit of Torah causes in Israel. They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’). They include Yeshivah high schools in the ambit of their interests – “Oy! What a sharp sword on the soul of the Yeshivos!”

Contrast the venomous diatribes with the torah insights, concern for fellow Jews, and practical advice which fill the letters of real manhigei-yisroel over the last century, and the contrast is too clear to ignore. R' Shach had nothing positive to contribute, so he relied on gool 'ol sinas chinam to make his mark. Unfortunately, as anyone familiar knows, the letters quoted above are merely a sample of the wanton hate this man spewed on a regular basis. Wake up, people. R'Isser Zalman didn't teach this 'derech', nor R'Chaim Oizer, nor does R'Chaim Kanievsky, nor did any real godol who had something to contribute to 'Olam haTorah'. The more R'Shach is analyzed, the clearer this becomes, and as he's already in Olam hoEmes, you don't do him any favors by repeating his mistakes.

Anonymous said...

Rav Schach could wipe the floor with MH"M.

yoshe kalb said...

Not being a big fan of Rav Shach, I'd like to ask which Beis Rivkah or Beis Yakov graduate knows how to kasher meat, prepare liver, open a chicken or sew? Do you want to get married to your chavrussoh or to a girl that knows how to run a Yiddishe Heim?

shneour zalman miller,ch said...

'Shloime Miller'
Blah,blah.But why use R'Shlomo Miller from Toronto's name?
Trying to omply something?

a gevezener snag said...

to shloime miller
as sad am i to write this - but you are 100% correct. i was tought from youngest age to idolise r shach but now that i can think on my own i can only contrast him with other gedolim. i have a collection in my house on every possible contemporary godol you can think of. you just look on the sforim on r' shloime zalmen oyerbach - the man was unbelievable in his compassion, chochmo, big mindness - another words greatness. i have letters of r chaim oyzer, sforim on brisker, r arye levin - i can go on and on. and then r schach who literally spent his whole time spewing venom and politics. being roidef his perceived " konkurentn" in ponevezh, almost forcing bochrim to read yated saying its mutar evevn before shachris because its daas toire. the list goes on and on. very sad - thats all i can say.

Anonymous said...

I wonder what Kugel his rebetzin the aptieker(pharmacist) made? coming out from some Russian university? I think his son is still around lets search him out and ask him.

Anonymous said...

If he was the godul hador then why didn't he bully the Wolfs of the Bnei Berak Bais Yakov system to teach cook books instead of ramban?

Arthur said...

To Anomymous 1:36:00 AM
So you are one of these guys that says "don't confuse me with the facts my mind is made up".
Of course you farherd them both and you have concrete evidence that Rav Shach "could wipe the floor with the Rebbi".I strongly doubt that you are familier with any of the Rebbes sichos,pilpulim etc etc.Your just a brain washed am haaretz who happens to be a Shach worshipper.So what else is new.

Anonymous said...

I know its hard 4 chabad 2 swallow but when it came to chabad the steipler who had a chassidishe backround was on the same page as r schsch and maybe more extreme as he was known to say "bchol dor v'dor oimdim aleinu lchaloiseinu " in this generation that is chabad

schneur said...

I am amazed that Chabad is still concerned with Rav Shach.
Is it not time for closure or will you go after him "ad sof kol "hadoros ?
Why not admit he was a gaon, he disliked the Rebbe and move on .
Now let me become a bit caustic, and in Bais Rivka , the girls kochen zich (excuse the pun) in Ramban ?
There I suppose the "trop" is on being a shlucha --- fundraising, PR opportunities and the like.

shimon said...

''Your just a brain washed am haaretz who happens to be a Shach worshipper''

Arthur,
You claim to be middleaged man who studied in Kfar Chabad Yeshiva and you sound like a teenage talmid in your locak Chabad mesivta.What gives?
Btw, as a Lubavitcher you shouldn't touch the subject of rebbe 'worship'.Not that all Lubavitchers are into it ,but a group that has some adherents that claim the late Rebbe is divine chas vesholom should watch what they say about others.

shimon said...

Arthur
You sound afraid of 'Shach worshiping' as you so ineloquently put it.How about real Rebbe worshiping as in 'yechi boreinu' which has reared it's ugly head in some of your own circles?
Easy to see perceived faults of others,eh?
You still surprised that OUJ wiped the floor wth you?

Arthur said...

Shimon
First of all UOJ did not wipe the floor with me.We both agreed to disagree.I personally don't know of any Lubavitcher, even from amongst the meshicisten,who subscribe to the vile statement "yechi boreinu".I've heard of one or two crazies that spout that nonsense but have not been heard from for quite a while.As to "You sound afraid of 'Shach worshiping' as you so ineloquently put it".That's exactly my point.Lubavitch is constantly being accused so"ineloquently" of being Rebbi worshippers.How's about Shach worshipping "that reared it's ugly head in some of your own circles?"

shimon said...

Arthur
Can I be of help in steering you to some of your 'boreinuniks'?
For example a 'rabbi' named Milchtein from Milwaukee who actually has a Boreinu shul? Anyway, I think Ariel Sokolovsky who has a whole blog dedicated to this would help you in furnishing even more adherents.In addition the 'meshichists; members of the 'long live the Rebbe forever and ever and ever etc' school are not far from Boreinunuiks,I mean saying that somebody lives forever and ever is basically saying they are divine,no? This is aside from the millions of pictures of every size floating around every Chabad House and Chabad publication.How about the seven foot tall portrait of the Rebbe in the zal of Oholei Torah???That is not 'worship'??

n.b since you brought some kind of 'babbeh mayseh' with Rav Shach once in this forum
I'd like to tell about another 'so called godol' who would never make it to head any Lubavitcher yeshiva.This so called 'godol' has many 'klotz kashes' on 'nigleh' and he can't answer most of them,he always writes and I quote 'vetsorich iyun godol' etc.For some reason the Snags turned him into a Rashkabeha'g, just goes to show you what Snas know.He would never ever be taken as a rosh yeshiva in Chabad!

Arthur said...

Shimon,
Lets assume for a moment that UOJ wiped the floor with me.I would consider that to be an honorific.He wipes the floor with just about everyone from Chassideshe Rabaiem to Litveshe gedolim and everyone in between.I'd be in pretty elite company.

CHNYOCK said...

nuance

my friends nuance makes all the difference in presenting this story as it occured and making rav shach look like a nasty fellow.....

Friendly Anonymous said...

where do you find these books? I'm reading the latest novel by John Grisham, and it's quite good.

Hirshel Tzig said...

it was sent to me by a reader.

moag said...

Dr. Ephraim Shach

http://gingyinjerusalem.blogspot.com/2006/12/friday-night-dinner.html

friday night dinner
last friday night i joined a couple i'm friendly with for friday night dinner. the host happened to be isaac herzog, named after his grandfather, rabbi yitzhak halevi herzog. rabbi yitzhak halevi herzog was the first chief rabbi of ireland. subsequently, from 1937 until his death he was the chief rabbi of british mandate palestine and then israel, once it was formed. my friend, isaac herzog, the host, is also the nephew of the late chaim herzog, the sixth president of israel.

to eat a shabbat meal at the table of the grandson of a former chief rabbi of israel and nephew of a president of the state of israel is pretty remarkable. and yet, while this lineage impressed me, these facts did not faze me. in israel, there is a certain accessibility like nowhere else. perhaps because the country is so small, it seems almost commonplace to bump into and break bread with renowned professors, famous politicians and great personalities. isaac briefly mentioned his grandfather and shared a few stories.

as if that were not special enough, a guest knocked on the door during dessert. it was an older couple who live in the building stopping by to wish our host a shabbat shalom. it turns out that the older couple who visited were dr. and mrs. ephraim shach. dr. ephraim shach is the son of rav elazar shach, zecher tzaddik l'vracha, a leading eastern-european born and educated haredi rabbi of the past generation. rav shach was considered a "gadol hador" (supreme leader of the generation) and was the rosh yeshiva of the ponevezh yeshiva in bnei brak, as well as the founder of the degel hatorah political party.

dr. shach regaled us with stories about his father, his education, life in eastern europe, and stories about other gedolim for over an hour. i sat, mouth agape, totally enthralled. as a student of early modern jewish history and someone who is passionate about judaism, i could not believe how fortunate i was to be getting a first-hand lesson in jewish history. dr. shach spared no detail in painting vivid stories and connecting the dots between all of the great jewish personalities of eastern europe.

we learned of rav shach's early yeshiva studies and about how he was one of rav isser zalman meltzer's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isser_Zalman_Meltzer) top pupils, along with a handful of other rabbis who went on to be esteemed figures in modern jewish american and israeli life. rav isser zalman meltzer's talmidim (pupils) included rav aharon kotler, who founded the lakewood yeshiva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharon_Kotler), rabbi shlomo zalman auerbach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach), and rabbi yehuda amital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Amital), among others.

dr. shach explained that his father, while part of the haredi community, was in fact a zionist. he also told us how his family was supported primarily by his mother (who was rav isser zalman meltzer's niece). rav shach's wife had studied medicine for 3 years. she accompanied a prominent doctor when he made rounds to check on the roshei yeshiva of israel. while the doctor would examine the roshei yeshiva, mrs. shach would wait in the other room. the doctor would then share his findings with mrs. shach and she would diagnose the patient and prescribe medication.

dr. shach recounted the details surrounding his family's escape from lithuania shortly before WWII. rav isser zalman meltzer, who was by that point already in palestine, helped rav shach and his family obtain certificates to go to israel. along with several prominent rabbis and many family members, the shach family set sail from odessa to turkey, from where they would continue their journey by train and foot. the turkish authorities refused to let the eastern european jews disembark, leaving them with no option but to return to the increasingly dangerous situation in russia and eastern europe. a wealthy jew named brotzky heard about the plight of this group of jews and took matters into his own hands. he argued with the turkish authorities, bribed them and offered to personally pay all room and board expenses of the stranded jews. the authorities agreed, and this wealthy jew singlehandedly saved the lives of rav shach and his family. dr. shach, with a gleam in his eye, said to us: "imagine that. a jew, who didn't know us, completely secular, insisted on saving us. just like that. he had a 'pintele yid' (a little jewish spark) in him."

dr. shach is himself a fascinating man. he left the haredi world and became a religious zionist. he served in the IDF and received a doctorate in history and philosophy.

above are just a few of the myriad stories dr. shach shared with us. the stories i heard were moving, enlightening and inspiring. how special it is to live in jerusalem. a city where one's neighbors range from taxi drivers to descendants of great torah luminaries and renowned political figures, where one can stumble upon a history lesson at a neighbor's shabbat table. where once again, there is an inextricable connection to one another and to our rich and powerful heritage.

Anonymous said...

Shimon
The Avi Ezri idol worship has caused a bigger Churban then a few billboards and 1 shul in Milwaukee( if its true)
his worshipers made a churban of the great yeshiva of Ponovich

His worshipers are promoting a scandal ridden Hechsher by the name of Shearith Yisroel even tough it is constantly caught with triefos etc..

His worshiper are printing a rag Yated thats hated by most bnie torah for the belittling of Rav Shtienman and Reb Ovadia Yosef and terrorizing who ever is not on the same page with them

shimon said...

hey, i know that shimon is a common name but since i already used it in this discussion first (Friday, June 13, 2008 5:50:00 PM) it would be polite of shimon (Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:57:00 PM and following) to somehow alternate his nick for now...

SDR said...

You know Tzig,
I enjoy your blog but what's the point of this post. I've always enjoyed this maaseh about R' Schach and if it was aboue the Rebbe, you and Berel would be drinking vodka reminiscing and smiling from cheek to cheek. I'm sure we could find countless stories about the Rebbe that would make him look like a complete idiot.

Just look at the spiritually bankrupt money grubbing Salvation armyesque organization he left behind. 770 Bais chayenu?!?!? WHATEVER!!!

shloime miller said...

Here we go again !
Nobody invented all the filthy hate ascribed to R' Schach - it's clearly advertised by his own hand, in his own books, for all to see. That some of you are so brainwashed as to insist on re-casting such vile sinas-chinam as service to some supposed 'daas torah' is incredible, Can't you read - the man was a rabid anti-semite, and his hateful rants don't substitute for real lomdus in any way. I quoted mere snippets of the mass hate spewed by this man - isn't it time for the spin-doctors to reprint this nonsense as something else ?! Let's call a spade a...spade !! Yes, Schneur, we can move on once the established facts are read into the record and the revisionists silenced. Don't you present yourself as some kind of researcher/historian ? Well how about some intellectual honesty for a change ! Or do I need to quote more of his senseless rants to convince you - the record is clear.

"shneour zalman miller,ch said...

'Shloime Miller'
Blah,blah.But why use R'Shlomo Miller from Toronto's name?
Trying to omply something?"

Do you really think Rav Miller in Toronto is the only one with my name ?! Though, now that you mention it, why don't you ask HIM what he thinks of R'Schach's 'geonus' - you'd obviously be in for a very nasty surprise...

shimon said...

Again Lubavitchers do not heed their own words.
I'm talking to Schnour Zalman aka anon 8:34pm:You talk about a 'scandal ridden hechsher' while Lubavitch is under fire because of the Rubashkin fiasco??
Stam that you should know:The worst hechsheirim in Eretz Yisroel are better than the glatt hechsheirim in America.
Btw, while we are on the subject of hechsheirim:Why is it that OK Labs a Lubavitcher hechsher gives hashgocho on cholov stam?In Lubavitch 'cholov stam' is one of the gimmel aveiros chamuros, and I'm not going to get into a real halachik discussion about this now, but If Lubavitchers hold that it's has no heter (despite being a machloikes with rishoinim and achronim who hold that it would be ok here in America)why give it a shtempel of kashrus? Veulay kesef yaaneh ess hakoil?Vetsorich iyun godol, ve'eid vehu hoikor, today with the OU giving hechsher on cholov stam terutzim that people will eat 'real treif' if they don't have cholov stam have fallen by the side.

As always the Lubavitcher will improvise a nice 'terutz', similar to the one that allows wholesale 'fresserai' before davening based on a halocho in shulchan oruch that haroeiv vehatzomeh bichlal choilem',(they are considered sick and may eat prior to davening), the only two 'minor' problems are :A)Not everyone can have a ptur choileh, cuz to whom than does the halocho of not eating apply to??B)Accepting for a moment that everyone is bichlal choileh,well,one sec!!!Why not daven like most normal people at 7 or 8 in the morning and not need make believe heteirim, rather than davening at 9:30 or later and make excuses??

The above krumeh toireh to allow wholesale eating before davenen is a classic 'chbasker toireh' something you will unfortunately not find in seforim like Avi Ezri or the Snag who like to ask 'kashes' but could never answer his own kashes(!)and always 'played dumb' by saying 'vetsorich iyun godol'(btw he was also a rov by the yekkes in Posen)

Todros said...

I came across a piece written about 15 years ago by Marc Shapiro. While most of us would obviously not agree with all of his hashkofos, etc, he makes some very clear and rational points in explaining the 'Shach brainwashing' phenomenon. It's time to stop the brainwashing and stick to the facts:

From: Marc Shapiro
Subject: Re: Rav Shach

There has been a lot of talk about gedolim and especially about
Rav Shach. Before people make any judgements I think it is important to
know something about the man and his teachings. If what I say appears
harsh, let me assure the readers that I have said the same things to many
rabbis and they have agreed with me. Since the views I will be expressing
are also those of numerous others it would be best for the moderator not
to censor it. I realize that others are afraid to speak out so I will say
what everyone else is thinking. Needless to say, the Lubavitchers have
spoken out and been a great deal harsher than I will be but that is for
good reason. Rav Shach has branded the rebbe a heretic. Furthermore, he
has branded the entire movement as heretical. Most people respond harshly
when they have been called heretics, Especially since the other gedolim
seem to have no great problem with Habad. They don't support everything
Habad does but you don't have other gedolim using the inflammatory rhetoric
of R. Shach.
In fact he is very inconsistent. He mocks the Lubavithcher
rebbe's Rambam learning program saying that people knew about the
Rambabm before Lubavitch came around and that no one should follow
Habad's program and it is forbidden to innovate and yet he praises Daf
Yomi. Well, people knew about learning Talmud before R. Meir Shapiro.
The difference is that when Rav Shach likes something, when it comes
from his circles, then it is ok. However if an innovation, no matter how
good, comes from another circle then he viciosly attacks it.
In general, everything that comes out of his mouth is criticism.
He does not believe in building but in destroying. All of his volumes of
letters are attacks against everything from Lubavitch, to religious
Zionism, to Hesder yeshivot, to Rav Goreh (who has no yirat shamayim
according to Shach), to R. Steinsaltz (another heretic). When the rest
of he Jewish world was celebrating the Entebbe raid and R. Moshe said it
was an open miracle Shach gave a talk saying that what the Government
did was forbidden. This is exactly what the Satmar rebbe said! He gave
his famous talk last year viciously attacking the kibbutzim. Why? We all
know that they don't keep kosher there but why attack them. Is this the
way to bring people together and bring them to yiddishkeit? Is this
love? Lubavitch knows how to be mekarev, they do it through love. Shack
simply attacks. And then he attacked President Herzog for no reason.
Herzog did more for religious Jewry than any president and he is a fine
man but Shach viciously attacks him just like he attacks the kibbutzniks
who have laid down their lives so that he could live in peace. And he
expects the secularists to keep subsidizing the yeshivot at the massive
rate they have been?
Rav Shach has no value in his life other than that of learning
Torah. People can't feel good about anything other than learning Torah.
There is no value to the State of Israel other than that it enables us
to learn Torah and its destruction would be no great tragedy if Torah
continued to be learnt. He opposed the annexation of East Jerusalem and
Golan because it will get the goyim mad. He doesn't recognize the
concept that Jews should see something positive in annexing our
capital-- East Jerusalem. He also speaks of not provoking the Gentiles,
a concept which has no validity when Jews have a state, although he
thinks that the State is just as much a galut as N. Y. and London. He
says that Jews in Israel should act as if they were dancing before the
Polish nobleman. In other words, the fact that Jews now have a state
means nothing about how they relate to the world. They still must have
this inferiority comples. There is something wrong with having pride and
holding one's head up.
His views have infected the Haredi community. We all know that
they dodge the draft but it is even worse. They refuse to say a mi
shebarakh for IDF even though the latter protect them from the Arabs.
They refuse to say a prayer for the government which gives them millions
of dollars. In the diaspora they alwasy said a prayer for the government
but not in Israel. In the Diaspora they always acted patriotic and if
there was a moment of silence for war dead they wouldn't dream of
breaking with the practice. However in Israel while everyone stands at
attention on Yom Hashoah they go about their business. Do they realize
how much of a hillul hashem this is and how it hurts the feelings of
others who are remembering loved ones. Of course they know but they
don't care. Unlike Lubavitch they enjoy confrontation.
For R. Shach there is only one truth. He has no conception of
Jewish history and doesn't realize that there can be disputes in matters
of hashkafah, as long as we all accept Torah and halakhhah. Thus when R.
Ovadiah decided to join the government he threatened to ban all of the
latter's books No other gadol has ever made such irresponsible
statements and acted in such a dictatorial manner.
Everything I have described so far is written in his books. I
have not made any of it up and if gets you mad hearing what he believes
trust me that this is only the tip of the iceberg and there is no way
that anyone who reads this line should regard him as an important gadol,
since everything most of us view as important he mocks (he even says its
forbidden to form rabbinic organizations).
To give one final example of this let me refer to Rav Shach's
attack on R. Soloveitchik in vol. 4 of his letters. As everyone knows,
there were always disputes in hashkafah between the Rav and other
gedolim. However this never stopped the Lubvavitcher rebbe or R. Moshe
or R. Aharon Kotler from being on close personal terms with the Rav and
respecting his gadlus. Obviously R. Moshe and the Lubavticher Rebbe, as
well as the Rav, believed that their own approach was correct and the
others were wrong. But they never said that the approach of the other's
was forbidden. It was just misguided. Similarly, the Rav never said that
everyone had to learn secular studies, that other aproaches were
invalid. Rather, only that his approach was also legitimate.
Rav Shach has a different approach, one which shows all of his
feeling of knowing everything and his belief that he, and only he, knows
the truth, the one and only truth. In discussing the Rav's book Hamesh
Derashot he doesn't say that we have a different view or that the Rav is
wrong. No, what he says is that it is forbidden to listen to what the
Rav says. Forbidden. the Rav goes against Daat Torah and the Rav has
completely distorted Daas Torah (one wonders whose Daas Torah. Doesn't
the Rav have his own Daas Torah?) Since anyone who goes against Daas
Torah speaks heresy it is forbidden to listen to what the Rav says! Does
he realize who is talking about? This is not some Mizrachi functionary
he is mocking (not that this is forgivable either). He is speaking about
R. Soloveitchik, whom R. Tendler called the greatest Rosh Yeshivah of
our generation, whom the Lubavitcher rebbe stood up for etc. etc. May
God forgive him for degrading our teacher! Furthermore, R. Shach
continues, it is the Rav's secular studies which are responsible for
these distortions. Woe are the ears which hear such nonsense. What
chutzpah, to say that secular studies distorted the Rav's Torah! Rav
Shach goes on for a few pages without any respect for the fact that the
Rav was a gadol and he is entitled to have different hashkafah, also
throwing in some irrelevancies about how Hesder yeshivot have destroyed
any notion of striving for greatness in Torah learning. (He also hates
hesder because their students actually get a job. For R. Shach, and
Israeli Haredim, as oposed to American haradim, there is something
negative about actually working for a living. There is no concept of a
Baal ha-Bayit. That is why he put Leo Levi's book Shaare Talmud Torah in
Herem, since it advocates a Torah im Derekh Eretz [i. e.earning a
living] approach). Shach is also confused how come the rabbis in the U.
S. did not protest The Rav's opinions and furthermore that they
contributed to the book Kevod ha-Rav . This is a great hillul hashem
since by giving the Rav a book in his honor and praising him the
yeshivah students will see this and think that is ok to follow in the
Rav's path, God forbid, and will absorb his views which are completely
"pasul".
I could go on but I think everyone gets the point. When it comes
to gedolim we should consult R. Eliashiv, R. Shlomo Zalman, the chief
Rabbis, R. Ovadia etc. We should not even take Rav Shach's opinion into
consideration. By adopting such a hateful tone and being so opposed to
everything we consider decent he is not really different than the Satmar
rebbe, who was, as R. Aharon Soloveitchik told me, a great scholar who
made a terrible blunder. So too with Rav Shach. He has slandered great
gedolim and for his sake we should hope that it was all done le-shem
shamayim. When I asked R. Aharon why we don't put him in Herem in
accordance with the pesak of the Rambam re. anyone who slanders a gadol
all he could say was that we no longer use the Herem. One thing must be
said for Lubavitch, even thought R.Shach says they are heretics and that
their rebbe is one of the greatest sinners alive, and going straight to
gehinnom, they have not lost their cool. I don't think there will be any
rejoicing in Crown Heights when he passes away. They realize that this
whole affair is very sad. Unfortunately, however, when the rebbe passes
away there will be rejoicing in Ponovezh because one is supposed to
rejoice at the death of a heretic. What have we come to!
Marc Shapiro

Chaim said...

Marc Shapiro is a letz and a kal.
Try and bring rayos from more substantial sources.

Arthur said...

Shimon (the one that said)
"You claim to be middleaged man who studied in Kfar Chabad Yeshiva and you sound like a teenage talmid in your locak Chabad mesivta.What gives?"
Perhaps I ought clear up somethings about myself.I speak as a yochid and represent no one except myself and my opinions.
I have never been a messhichist closet or otherwise.When the Rebbe was alive I was an agnostic at best(or worst depending how you look at it).I am a vocal opponent to the mantra "Yichi.....".and all the other narishkeiten that have besmirched the name of the Rebbe and Lubavitch.
Perhaps you misunderstood my "nuance" of speach when I answered the individual that said "Rav Shach could wipe the floor with the Rebbe",by saying he is a worshipper of Rav Shach.My point being that Rosh Hayishivos have been placed on a pedestal in the Litveshe velt which was unheard of years ago.Every shmendrick who opens up a yeshiva now days is referred to as a "Godol".There are so many individuals called "gedolim" around that there are no ketanim left.
A certain well known Rosh Hayisheva (probably is a real godol) of a large yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel arrived in the USA a couple of months ago and was written up in Hamodia.The adjectives used to describe him went on and on ad naseum ad ain ledor sof.I have never seen a write up like this about any Rebbe ,Lubavitch or otherwise,before.
My quibble with Rav shach is the man was a professional hater,A lamdin yes but a manhig in my humble opinion definitey not.
Perhaps I have an personal axe to grind in this matter to.A relative of mine,who is a chosheve Rov, a Lamdin utzum ,a Torah Vedaas musmach and now is the head of the vaad hair of a major city in the US, visited Rav Shach to discuss a very personal and delicate issue.When Rav Shach heard that he comes from a Lubavitcher backround had him thrown out of his house.A true gadol would never have stooped to such a low level.

Arthur said...

Chaim,
Instead of slander and invective,why don't you answer his very valid points? You said"Marc Shapiro is a letz and a kal.
Try and bring rayos from more substantial sources."

Anonymous said...

I am amazed that Chabad is still concerned with Rav Shach.
Is it not time for closure or will you go after him "ad sof kol "hadoros ?


The calculus is really quite simple. If the Rebbe lives on forever so do his m'nagdim.

shloime miller said...

Yes, Chaim, raayos from sources like Maran Shach's 'Michtavim uMaamarim', where the man speaks for himself. That's all that Marc Shapiro quoted - the hate-meister himself ! Is that too much for you to handle, the raw truth ?
Now tell us that hate is really love....GROW UP.

Anonymous said...

when u r up 2 bringing some screed from marc shapiro about a man who was revered by the gedolim of the previous gen including R SZ Aurbach and R Elyashiv who both signed on many of the so called attacks with R SCHACH you know that your side has lost. When u walk into bobov stolin or even ger and hear from chasidim that we now see R SCHACH was right then it is clear as day that at least the p.r. war chabad has lost.

Anonymous said...

As someone who spent a lot of time around MARAN R SHACHS house I cud attest that every person that came to the house wether chassidish mizrachi secular was treated with the upmost respect and to quote a secular freind "all those that talk abt r shach as if he was a crazed hate filled man is only because they never met him he was the sweetest nicest most caring men u ever met". So if som1 had a cousin who was not let in bcs of a chabad connection maybe it was the attendents but definitely not R Shach himself

Anonymous said...

Marc Shapiro is a letz and a kal.
==========================

Not true at all. He makes no bones about his sincere "academic" approach and takes his work very seriously. If one doesn't like his derech, just ignore it.
KT
Joel Rich

The Bray of Fundie said...

Now tell us that hate is really love....GROW UP.

Err...it is.

טו שִׂנְאוּ-רָע וְאֶהֱבוּ טוֹב, וְהַצִּיגוּ בַשַּׁעַר מִשְׁפָּט; אוּלַי, יֶחֱנַן יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי-צְבָאוֹת--שְׁאֵרִית יוֹסֵף.

and...

י אֹהֲבֵי יְהוָה, שִׂנְאוּ-רָע:

and ...

כא הֲלוֹא-מְשַׂנְאֶיךָ יְהוָה אֶשְׂנָא; וּבִתְקוֹמְמֶיךָ, אֶתְקוֹטָט

For as long as evil exists the antonym of love is not hate. They are, in fact, two sides of the same coin. The opposite of love is apathy.

Avrumik said...

yoshe kalb said...

Not being a big fan of Rav Shach, I'd like to ask which Beis Rivkah or Beis Yakov graduate knows how to kasher meat, prepare liver, open a chicken or sew? Do you want to get married to your chavrussoh or to a girl that knows how to run a Yiddishe Heim?

Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:27:00 AM

Satmar places emphasis on the above. I believe that others teach important halachos to a degree.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Do you want to get married to your chavrussoh or to a girl that knows how to run a Yiddishe Heim?

Considering that times have changed and that very few of us rely on no one but the meat packer/butcher for kashering meat, preparing liver or opening a chicken and we rely on the Korean dry cleaner to sew,

Wheras most of us view our wives as full partners rather than as a notch above the kids, maybe now we need more chavrusa types.

shimon 2 said...

Arthur,
Since the environment seems to have become a wee bit more tolerant maybe we can discuss some issues.
Firstly, your honesty about your negia with Rav Shach is to be commended (you probably mean Rav R. your cousin, no?Btw, how is he doing?I asked a guy from his city and he said he is not very active, wheelchair etc.Refua shleima)
Listen, stam that you should know, Rav Shach was an extremely humble and sweet person in private, so the mayseh is a bit difficult to believe, in addition Ponovizh had quite a number of Lubavitcher and I 've never heard of personal animus.
In a way Chabad has built up Rav Shach into a totally different person than he was.This has to be discussed at another time.
Anyway one small last point:One of Rav Shachs most endearing traits in my mind was his honesty,ie, an ability to tell a bochur or even in a shiur keloli in front of the whole yeshiva 'I don't know',close his gemorra and end the shiur.This happened a number of times!That's why I hinted at R'Akiva Eigers famous humility of 'Hashem yoir eynai' Tsorich iyun godol' etc instead of making up pilpulim that would not be truthful enough for him.This midda is something that Lubavitch managed to twist into 'am aratsus' which is the total opposite of the point.Rav Shach had misnagdim even in the yeshiva world, nobody ever dared accuse him of amaratsus something that was so far from the truth .
The letters quoted are true to Rav Shachs form, he was an honest a brave person who held to his beliefs without sugar coating.One may disagree and feel uncomfortable with some of the issues but there is no sugar coating here.Other unnamed major talmidei chachomim did not have it in their persona to publicly state unpopular views orwage theolgical wars.No,I don't mean the Rebbe at all, again one can accuse Lubavitch of many things but not of not having backbone and giving back as good as they receive.
'Nuff for now, sorry for the ineloquence

Shalom Ash said...

It amazes me that people still attack Rav Shach with lies. There are enough true stories and statements from Rav Shach that we can degrade him with. Rav Shach was no Am Haaretz! he wasn’t either a Godel like the Litvish make him out to be

Arthur said...

To Shimon 2
Rav R.Needs Rachamim rabim nemokor horachdim vihachsodim.

Mississippi Fred MacDowell said...

>One doesn't approach the Gadol Hador with a question on the Ramban in Chumash.

Why not?

Reminds me of all those stories in the Gemara about how the tanna Hillel would upraid those chutzpenyaks with their questions.

Chaim Shmeel said...

shimon 2 said...
'Listen, stam that you should know, Rav Shach was an extremely humble and sweet person in private, so the mayseh is a bit difficult to believe, in addition Ponovizh had quite a number of Lubavitcher and I 've never heard of personal animus.
In a way Chabad has built up Rav Shach into a totally different person than he was.This has to be discussed at another time.'

What planet are you living on, that you would even expect anybody to take this seriously ?! As anybody over 35 who remembers can tell you, R' Shach was a rabid hater of anything not in his narrow daled-amos - frum, frei, and anything else. The man did absolutely nothing for klal-yisroel other than ratchet up a massive increase in sinas-chinom, especially in EY. I still remember the brainwashed clones leaving one of his major 'asifos' in 1992, full of fresh hate but nothing else. For anyone who doesn't remember the poison he brought to Ponevezh, just read his letters, and ask yourself the obvious questions;
Why so much hate ?
Who does he think he is ?
What is he trying to accomplish ?
What about ahavas yisroel ?

Stop trying to reinvent history. The record is very clear. R' Shach = lots of hate, but not much else.
Sorry if this hurts, but the truth often does.

Milhouse said...

"Shimon" (of 15-Jun 4:42pm): So you've named two people who hold these views. I'll throw in a third - Baranes. Now, how are they "ours"? How are they in any way "some of our own circles"? What has any of them ever had to do with Lubavitch? Did any of them come from a Lubavitcher background? Did they ever hold a position of any kind, in any Lubavitcher mosod? Between the three of them, how many years did they learn in Lubavitche yeshives? What have they got to do with us at all? (As for Milchstein's alleged shul, how many people come there? Does he get a minyan?)

BTW, the last time Baranes showed his face in 770, he was physically picked up and thrown out the door, and told what would happen if he dared to come back. And this was not done by anti-meshichistn, but by the Tzfatim, the yellow people, the "Taliban". The same radical meshichistn who drive everyone crazy with their antics, draw a sharp red line at that sort of thing. So don't go accusing Lubavitch of avodo zoro; even the craziest among us doesn't even get close to it.

Anonymous said...

satmar chosid writes
Rav Shach was really a satmar chosid at heart, he knew the whole beis yaakob system was against halacha.
The story goes slightly differently he asked them if it was good cake then he asked if they could also make it. they replied they couldnt. he then said first make cake then come back with the ramban.
i also think it was gateshead seminary girls.