Thursday, June 19, 2008

Rabbis For Telshe

First comes the letter, "We Support Telshe," they say.



Then comes the retraction from Rabbi Miller. "That's not really what I meant," he says. I wonder who got to him....


(The letter the other sites won't show you....)

Chaim Berlin tragedy writes:

AFAIK, RAS sat on an (Aguda?) Bais Din in recent years that attempted to adjudicate the machlokes between the Gifters and the Sorotzkins, and that issued a "p'sak" (what it is exactly needs to be clarified) favoring the Sorotzkins.

On this blog - on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - in a Conversation about Telshe an anonymous poster of Monday, December 10, 2007 8:57:00 PM reported at that time:

"you are getting involved with petty little snips and everyone will throw in their wisdom. FACT IS a beis din comprised of Rabbi Dovid Feinstein, Rabbi Aron Schechter, and Rabbi Grumer (Rosh Beis Din of Cleveland)issued a PSAK (available for all to see) which the hanholoh defied and seems to do away time and again which in effect has caused all these mini machlokesen which is in effect bringing the place to a close. Self interests and greed is the answer to all the stupid questions one may ask. Roshei Yeshiva should never complain that one doesn't listen to beis din just as they signed against Mr. Marvin Schick because in Cleveland they haven't either"

(umm, I have no clue what the bit about Marvin Schick is about BTW.)

But how RAS could have been chosen to sit in a Bais Din of such magnitude when he is deemed to be a lo tzayis l'dino in the RSC vs RAS and RAF is a great mystery and how Rav Dovid Feinstein could have joined this knowing the details of his father's rulings against RAS is an even greater mystery (or as bray of fundie admits, it is a sign of RAS's "prowess" to be a "manipulator leshem shomayaim" which by now Rav Dovid Feinstein surely regrets seeing where the Isaac Hersh case led to in its massive chillul H-shem berabim, and the role his people had to play in literally dragging Isaac Hesrh out of the pernicious claws of the evil Jamaicans running "Tranquility Bay" and their Mormon overlords and paymasters who had the final word to release Isaac Hersh since they own Tranquility Bay) so the whole thing sounds fishy and incomprehensible for anyone with any decent perspective of the larger picture in the dangerous world of RAS's spheres of influence.

Historically CBers have had a very poor view of Rav Mordechai Gifter zt"l (was it because he was more eloquent and more fearless and more gutsy and outspoken than any Cbers? They worked hard to make ash un blotte out of him behind the scenes, but he could care less what they did!) and in the early years when Telz came to America with its gaon'ishe Roshei Yeshiva, Rav Elya Meir Bloch zt"l and Rav Mottel Katz zt"l who managed with their brilliance and above all compassion and mentsclichkeit (two heimishe Yiddishe qualities that lots of the kalte Amerekaner CBers lack) to attract bochurim from Brooklyn to Cleveland in droves in the 1950s and 1960s, something that RYH and the CBers took as a potential rivalry for scarce talmidim in those days, and Rav Gifter eventually had some very sharp things to say about CB when they kicked out their own CB mashgiach RSC on trumped up charges.

Traditionally Rav Boruch Sorotzkin zt"l was held in the highest regard by RYH and hence by the CB establishment and no doubt RAS was acting out along those lines in favor of the Sorotzkins and against the Gifter faction. How the Gifters accepted RAS as a "dayan" defies understanding, didn't they understand that that meant that the dice was automatically loaded against them no matter which way things were sliced? Go know.

Note that RAS's signature does not appear on the letter to rescue Telz from its predicament, nor is he losing any sleep over the fate of Telz in Cleveland.

40 comments:

chnyock said...

this is priceless! where did you get it?

Anonymous said...

Not only won't show you, matzav.com refuses to print my comment with this second letter

SHAME ON THEM FOR TRYING TO MAKE A FIGHT

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

AFAIK, RAS sat on an (Aguda?) Bais Din in recent years that attempted to adjudicate the machlokes between the Gifters and the Sorotzkins, and that issued a "pesak" (what it is exactly needs to be clarified) favoring the Sorotzkins.

On this blog on Sunday, December 09, 2007 http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2007/12/machlokes-claims-another-victim-telshe.html an anonymous poster of Monday, December 10, 2007 8:57:00 PM reported at that time:

"you are getting involved with petty little snips and everyone will throw in their wisdom. FACT IS a beis din comprised of Rabbi Dovid Feinstein, Rabbi Aron Schechter, and Rabbi Grumer (raavad Cleveland)issued a PSAK (available for all to see) which the hanhalla defied and seems to do away time and again which in effect has caused all these mini machlokesen which is in effect bringing the place to a close. Self interests and greed is the answer to all the stupid questions one may ask. Roshei Yeshiva should never complain that one doesn't listen to beis din just as they signed against mr. marvin schick because in cleveland they haven't either"

(umm, I have no clue what the bit about Marvin Schick is about BTW.)

But how RAS could have been chosen to sit in a Bais Din of such magnitude when he is deemed to be a lo tzayis dino in the RSC vs RAS and RAF is a great mystery and how Rav Dovid Feinstein could have joined this knowing the details of his father's rulings against RAS is an even greater mystery (or as bray of fundie admits, it is a sign of RAS's "prowess" to be a "manipulator leshem shomayaim" which by now Rav Dovid Feinstein surely regrets seeing where the Isaac Hersh case led to in its massive chillul H-shem berabim, and the role his people had to play in literally dragging Isaac Hesrh out of the pernicious claws of the evil Jamaicans running "Tranquility Bay" and their Mormon overlords and paymasters who had the final word to release Isaac Hersh since they own Tranquility Bay) so the whole thing sounds fishy and incomprehensible for anyone with any decent perspective of the larger picture in the dangerous world of RAS's spheres of influence.

Historically Cbers have had a very poor view of Rav Mordechai Gifter zt"l (was it because he was more eloquent and more fearless and more gutsy and outspoken than any Cbers? They worked hard to make ash un blotte out of him behind the scenes, but he could care less what they did!) and in the early years when Telz came to America with its gaonishe Roshei Yeshiva, Rav Elya Meir Bloch zt"l and Rav Mottel Katz zt"l who managed with their brilliance and above all compassion and mentsclichkeit (two heimishe Yiddishe qualities that lots of the kalte Amerekaaner Cbers lack) to attract bochurim from Brooklyn to Cleveland in droves in the 1950s and 1960s, something that RYH and the CBers took as a potential rivalry for scarce talmidim in those days, and Rav Gifter eventually had some very sharp things to say about CB when they kicked out their own CB mashgiach RSC on trumped up charges.

Traditionally Rav Boruch Sorotzkin zt"l was held in the highest regard by RYH and hence by the CB establishment and no doubt RAS was acting out along those lines in favor of the Sorotzkins and against the Gifter faction. How the Gifters accepted RAS as a "dayan" defies understanding, didn't they understand that that meant that the dice was automatically loaded against them no matter which way things were sliced? Go know.

Note that RAS's signature does not appear on the letter to rescue Telz from its predicament, nor is he losing any sleep over the fate of Telz in Cleveland.

Shalom Ash said...

Whats the backgound story regarding thèse two letters?

Anonymous said...

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

long piece with absolute ignorance to the facts! The psak beis din which was issued to telshe yeshiva involved the current hanhalla NO Sorotzkins were even involved! Rav Dovid Feinstein isn't one to be manipulated!! shoteh learn your facts and keep quiet

Anonymous said...

Note that RAS's signature does not appear on the letter to rescue Telz from its predicament, nor is he losing any sleep over the fate of Telz in Cleveland.

Note: to "save" telshe yeshiva they can only find 6 signatures and to shut down lipa shmeltzer ..... can we see copies of the checks from the signaturies gave to telshe so we can emulate and follow in their ways!!! we needed to know telshe's history and current political situation in order to give them money!! what a group of gangsters all in the name of kovod hatorah!

Friendly anonymous said...

Is anyone ever going to stand up and try to restructure 770's hanholo?

A choshuver Lubavitcher Rov personally told me that he tried learning in 770 for a while, but he couldn't handle the hefkeyrus, and ended up returning to his previous yeshiva.

The Bray of Fundie said...

This is getting really insane.

Sorry CB tragedy but the way you write about CB and it's leadership evokes the Czarist forgers of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and images of lurid saliva dripping hook-nosed demons from Julius Streicher's Der Shturmer.

"They are everywhere! Contaminating all that they touch! Subverting and destroying everything and everyone! BEWARE! HIDE THE SILVER AND YOUR NEXT OF KIN!!!!"

Really,,, Tragedy, It's remarkable that considering the fact that K'lal Yisrael weathered the storm of the relatively mild and short lived Shabbtai Zvi SR"Y movement that we have been able to endure a Yovel plus years of demonic Hutnerian Chaim Berlin!

Take a chill pill man. Besides sounding absolutely clinically paranoid it's getting boring. You're fast becoming a one note Johnny! Besides, this is Tzig's world and you've got it all wrong:
The world does not revolve around 1605 Coney Island Avenue but around 770 Eastern Parkway! :)

Anonymous said...

As someone who actually knows what transpired, RAS favored RZG in the din torah.

Tragic, leave your imagination out of this, and if that leaves you with no facts to report, sorry.

Anonymous said...

keep in mind CB didn't destroy Telshe! Telshe destroyed Telshe!!!!

שנאה מקלקלת את השורה!!!

daloy ingrates! said...

Why are you spitting in the face of a yeshiva that housed and fed your father for 4 years?
Why are you dragging dirt out about them?
Lubavitchers are this way, once you join the cult you have no more 'tatteh' and no more 'mammeh',the Rebbe is both, just like by Stalin back in Russia.
This quality of Lubavich, absolute ingrates who have no qualms about writing shmutz about others including calling the founder and rosh of Americas biggest yeshiva a rotseich eckles me much more than some idiots with yellow flags.
Btw your Gutkin/gutnik chumash is a big farce in a pretty cover.You've been promoting it so heavily(not u the Goat, your Lubab fellow cultists)When I want to show how shallow u Chbdsker are I show them choice pieces in plain English

Hirshel Tzig said...

Ingrate:

You've got it all wrong. I'm doing this BECAUSE I have Kakaros HaTov that they housed my father for 4 years. Look at what they did to such an institution; they DESTROYED IT!!!

Now go find a rock to crawl under.

moron.

daloy ingrate said...

Tzig
Your doing it farn bashafers veygen is much scarier than your plain bad middos.
Did you force your kids to kiss the Rebbes pic, today??

They fed,housed but did not teach.Oines Rachmon patrei.

N.B I'm not the first one calling you on being an ingrate, that's just the way you are I guess

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To anonymous who claims: "NO Sorotzkins were even involved!" so pray tell why was young Rabbi Yitzchok Sorotskin exiled to Lakewood in the middle of all this?

To anonymous who said: "As someone who actually knows what transpired, RAS favored RZG in the din torah."

You obviously have little insight into the "chess grand master" mind of RAS who while he may set up all sorts of scenarios and say one thing, at the very same time will work behind closed doors to achieve the opposite goals. As Tzig would say, trust me, I know, and in my case it's from experience.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To bray of fundie of Friday, June 20, 2008 1:17:00 PM

"This is getting really insane."

Does anyone claim that CB is always a sane place? One has to have been a little nuts to attend there for any length of real time let alone stay on for decades and become a talmid in CB.

"Sorry CB tragedy but the way you write about CB and it's leadership evokes the Czarist forgers of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and images of lurid saliva dripping hook-nosed demons from Julius Streicher's Der Shturmer."

Rubbish. Now it is you who is creating charicatures when I have done nothing of the sort. Point to specific statements that you disagree with or that are provably wrong and I, as well as any intelligent readers, will take note. Otherwise you talk nonsensically of things in comical ways. But this will not get you off the hook because history cannot be conveniently whitewashed as ArtSCroll mostly does or as yeshiva dinner journal always do.

"They are everywhere! Contaminating all that they touch! Subverting and destroying everything and everyone! BEWARE! HIDE THE SILVER AND YOUR NEXT OF KIN!!!!"

Nonsese. Some of the best people I have met are Cbers and they are dear souls. Many of them are very meek and are even hated by the CB machers, as you seem to be. But you cannot have it both ways, by first telling the world that RAS is a "gadol" and he does have a broad reach through organizations, yeshivas and those who worship him like Lubavitchers who are empire builders and at the same time adore the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and then say oh well RAS is ne'er to be found and oes very little outside of CB which is false. Either he is or he isn't all over the place with fingers in lots of pies, and so far the discussions have focused on RAS's involvement with CB in his lifetime and the latterly distarous case of how he backed Michael Hersh (the father) against Isaac Hersh (the child), and his own intramural unresolved machlokas with RSC from 30 years ago, and with a few others, disputes in Shor Yoshuv Yeshiva and how the legacy to do primarily kiruv to secular Jews by RSF was betrayed, and the Din Torah concerning Telz which RAS got mysteriously involved in, all of which are pretty well known PUBLIC AFFAIRS in the Torah (we do not live in a Torah dictatorship (yet) Baruch H-shem) to many people, as anyone can see from the numerous other posts from others who know about these matters. So to make to make it sound that I am wildly meandering around almost aimlesslesly looking only for evil is dead wrong because that is just not it and anyone can review the record if they like and make their own judgments.

"Really,,, Tragedy, It's remarkable that considering the fact that K'lal Yisrael weathered the storm of the relatively mild and short lived Shabbtai Zvi SR"Y movement that we have been able to endure a Yovel plus years of demonic Hutnerian Chaim Berlin!"

How crazy is it to compare Rav Hutner to Shabtai Tzvi? Now that is you creating red-herring and straw man arguments that are way off and nisht tzum zach. Rav Hutner took over CB is 1936 when he became its founding menahel. So that actually makes it over shivim shana and they are great and glorious years that noone can deny. But, unlike Rab Hutner who had the good sense to move way to the background in CB at least a decade if not more before he passed away, the present king, RAS is pathetically clinging to power when it's really all over for him, as he acts out like the Shakespearian character King Lear making bad and tragic judgments (Isaac Hersh exiled, Lipa banned, sheitel store shut down... wher will this end?) and it is time for him to step down from the stage of history, and hand the reigns to the next round of leadership and come what may because the present situation has resulted in a number of compounded tragedies not of my making, and the Isaac Hersh case is a key in this case, it is the makeh bepatish, and all those in CB who cannot see that are fooling themseleves because we are parents with children who can at the drop of hat find ourselves with Isaac Hersh scenarios in our laps as had RAS set up a REAL conspiracy (not in my imgination) to help kidnap in the middle of the night by THUGS, and send and keep an innocent 16 year old teen on far off Jamaica. For me it is the "pilegesh biva'a" case of CB and it signals the final end of RAS's reign onev and for all, say what you will and scream as loud as you want about "gadol beYisroel this and gadol beYisroel that" because one plus one equals two and noone needs a gadol beYisroel to teach them that fact and truth. Not me and not you, for all your childish worship of RAS.

"Take a chill pill man. Besides sounding absolutely clinically paranoid it's getting boring. You're fast becoming a one note Johnny! Besides, this is Tzig's world and you've got it all wrong:
The world does not revolve around 1605 Coney Island Avenue but around 770 Eastern Parkway! :)"

Sure no problem, and have a great summer. I don't know how much more I can add at this time, without making dear old "vus nisht" think that I am tired of debating him. But hey, I do have lots of other things to do than to keep on repeating myself and I think that thanks to this blog I have managed to state my case for now. If the need arises I will certainly hope that Tzig will be gracious enough to hear me out. Kol Tuv.

Hirshel Tzig said...

how can I not be gracious after all the traffic and great conversation you bring!

Anonymous said...

"chess grand master" publicly supports RZG, yet secretly sabotages him (and why didn't he sign on this? must be part of the grand plan)

"chess grand master" publicly supports RMF yet secretly tries to sabotage him and place RNY in his place.

To chaim berlin tragedy I say: "You are a paranoid freak"

RAS is far less scheming than you believe, you attribute to him talents he does not posses. It makes me wonder, if you convinced yourself he did something to you that never actually happened.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To Hirshel Tzig who says "how can I not be gracious after all the traffic and great conversation you bring!"

Thank you very much and please pardon my typos, I am not a great typist all the time. (E.g. See above I left out "world" when I typed "PUBLIC AFFAIRS in the Torah world")

Yasher Koach for having the guts to do what you do!

Anonymous said...

Looks like CBT tried to outsmart RAS, and lost big time. He screws up, and now RAS is a super-wizard-monster, looks like CBT is a victim of his own intelligence.

Anonymous said...

Chaim Berlin tragedy sounds like he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. RAS is out to control Chaim Berlin, Shor Yoshuv, and Telz, and has exiled him many times. Vus nisht and several others are RAS's cyberpatrols. Soon we will hear that they are poisoning his food and tapping his conversations.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To the RAS attack dog anonymous who says: "Looks like CBT tried to outsmart RAS, and lost big time. He screws up, and now RAS is a super-wizard-monster, looks like CBT is a victim of his own intelligence."

First thing, lets get this straight, CBT is not in the same league as RAS and never claimed to be. Number two, CBT has described events that happened to others, like RYH, RSC, RSF, and other things not related at all to the life of CBT, and in fact CBT has said almost nothing about his own life story. If anyone knows where CBT came from and started they will know that he has not lost anything but that he is way ahead of the game and has always overcome the many obstacles life (not RAS, and way before and after his contact with RAS) has thrown in his way yet he always survives and comes out the better for it. So "Looks like" is not saying much and it's not even a theory because anyone can say what they want.

But yes, it is a problem that if CBT gives over much history of CB and RAS etc that then people think that CBT should get similar sized attention, but that would be like trying to find out about the life of an enthusiastic historian because he writes about famous people and it is not the historian or chronicler that counts it's the story and the main characters you keep your eyes on.

It's also obvious that some people are now panicky that CBT is talking too much and that they must therefore discredit him, but so far too many have come forth and posted that essentially CBT is on the mark with the facts as scary as they may sound sometimes.

And a final observation, and I have said this before, ever since the Isaac Hersh fiasco was publicized and the Jewish blogosphere was set ablaze with responses, that somethingt very interesting happened, Michael Hersh and RAS hired attorneys to defend them and very quickly, all sorts of attack dogs defending the indefensible came online and one technique that they have used very obviously is to discredit anyone who opens a mouth to them. This is the technique of a dictatorship out to silnce its critics by dirtying and discrediting them, when the critics are not the story and not what counts since the critics did not create the problems at CB but RAS himself.

So from now on when responding to a RAS defender who attacks first and asks questions later (mostly never, they always know better, like all machers), the label will be "RAS attack dog".

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Anonymous of Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:10:00 AM is just another RAS attack dog who does not discuss the issues but makes up lurid stories. This is quite silly but needs to be responded to.

CBT is not being poisoned and he is doing great. He had a great Shabbos and ate a good bowl of healthy cholent and thought of some good Torah thoughts and said them over and they were well-received even by a noted Talmid Chochem.

Sure, this line is very funny that "RAS is out to control Chaim Berlin, Shor Yoshuv, and Telz" and mixes up a bunch of things with poor argumentation and terrible (non) logic , because A.) RAS does control CB yeshiva, he is after all its resident gadol is he not and everything the gadol says goes, or else. B.) As for Shor Yoshuv while RAS does not "control" it, he has it's rosh yeshiva Rabbi Yeager under his thumb meaning that he gives da'as Torah to him, and the issue of Telz is not about "control" by RAS either (there is nothing to control there now in any case, it's a shambles and a ghost of itself) but how he got involved on a Din Torah adjudicating its fate when he (RAS) is in hot water with most other (actually all) Batei Din for being a lo tzyis dina for not responding to the RSC hazmonas (that had nothing to do with anyone excepet RSC and RAS) and that historically RYH was not favorable to Rav Gifter zt"l and vice versa, and indeed Rav Gifter had sharp words to say for the way CB yeshiva and RAS treated RSC. This is not from CBT's imagination it's all well known stuff.

Then there are some conclusions that an intelligent scholar must draw and CBT has put forth a few things that this blog has published and that quite a few posters have admitted is accurate and that the extreme to which the RAS attack dogs will go only proves CBT points even more.

brooklyn ave said...

''Yasher Koach for having the guts to do what you do!''

CB Tragedy,
Stop kissing up to the Tzig, it takes no guts to run an anonymous blog.
The reason he publishes your stuff is that since he joined Lubab inc he has gotten their 'enemy list' and decided to do 'Mivtza bashayegetz un bashmutzen' Chaim Berrlin rates pretty high on the Lubab 'enemy list' apparently because R'Hutner was one of the few who knew the Rebbe personally ans was not maskim to be 'mekabel malchus' and we all know what a 'moired b'malchus' gets....

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To our readers:

In reviewing the latest batch of purile little non-comments by RAS attack dogs:

(1) One can easily see how they are falling into the classical trap of "don't shoot the messenger", and in case anyone doesn't get it, because sometimes the attack dogs are overly yeshivish functional illiterates, here's how Wikepedia defines it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger : "'Shooting the messenger' is a metaphoric phrase used to describe the act of lashing out at the (blameless) bearer of bad news. In ancient times, messages were delivered in person by a human envoy. Sometimes, as in war, for example, the messenger was sent from the enemy camp. An easily-provoked combatant receiving such an overture could more easily vent anger (or otherwise retaliate) on the deliverer of the unpopular message than on its author, thus literally killing the messenger. In modern usage, the expression still refers to any kind of punishment meted out to the person bringing bad news, but has taken on an ironic dimension as well. Now, any adverse reaction, even one so mild as a raised eyebrow, could prompt a protest against shooting the messenger...A syntactically similar expression is 'Don't shoot the piano player; he's doing the best he can.'...Alternative expressions: 'Killing the messenger' 'Attacking the messenger' 'Blaming the bearer of bad tidings'...'Attacking the messenger' is also a subdivision of the ad hominem logical fallacy'.

(2) Then, funny how when I was comprehensively conveying the RAS point of view and defense in the RSC posting on this blog a few months ago, the RAS people were nee'er to be seen and the RSC supporters were accusing me of all sorts of things like being mevazeh gedolim and whatnot because I was not saying over the tale according to the RSC point of view. I guess by trying to be an objective historian of the CB paranoid and schizophrenic history I have to take the blame for THEIR OWN very obvious problems they see in others when it does not agree with their take on the approved party line. Oh well, so be it. At least this is America, and we still have free speech rights.

(3) Finally, I am really getting perplexed by how the RAS attack dogs swing and sway in their defenses of the indefensible. On the one hand they tell us that RAS is this great, awe-inspiring and formidable gadol who cannot be questioned and who is essentially as infallible as any Pope would claim to b and all must believe in him and if not they are missing out on the holy grail big time, and then on the other hand they tell us that he is meek and nothing out of the ordinary and to attribute any malice him, when he is clearly still bullying his way through life's situations, is hard to swallow. So they want to have their cake and eat it as well (I will not explain that now) so that they will overlook his obvious blunders like the one this year by insisting that 16 year old Isaac Hersh remain exiled among wild people with the goon guards on patrol on Jamaica even if the enire Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah is banging on his door to get this stopped, and then they will say oh he ever so gentle, just look at the way he smiles aand whispers his sweet nothings at people. Well, folks, sorry to break it to you, yet again, but this man is very dangerous and he has ruined many lives (mine is not included and its the issue of these discussions because I came from nothing so whatever I have I achieved is a great bonus, I can manage with whatever comes my way), but what about young Isaac Hersh? What about the sheitel machers who had their livelihoods snuffed out with one dumb accusatory "michtav" from RAS? What about the 30 year war against RS in spite of calls bay Batei Din to settle it once and for all? What about all the people who plain poshut simply are terrified to say anything, as in any tin-pot dictatorship because they are afraid that RAS and his henchman RAF will come and get 'em?

This is not a pretty picture, it is a TRAGEDY, but what can we do it is the ugly truth and it must be faced come what may.

To be continued...

Anonymous said...

" Rav Hutner took over CB is 1936 when he became its founding menahel."

Umm, you mean first, not founding. By the time Rav Hutner was hired, Rav Shurkin was giving nith grade and Rav Snow tenth grade!!!

CHNYOCK said...

when did rav avigdor miller cease to be mashgiach at chaim berlin?

Anonymous said...

>What about the 30 year war against RS

That's like saying the USA is fighting a 60 year war against the nazis. Chaim berlin hasn't done anything to RSC in the 25 years, but ignore him, he is the one who can't move on with life.

An Ailmesher said...

What about R. Moshe Shmuel Shapiro? What was his position in CB from 1925-1950?

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To anonymous of Sunday, June 22, 2008 7:37:00 AM who says: "Umm, you mean first, not founding. By the time Rav Hutner was hired, Rav Shurkin was giving nith grade and Rav Snow tenth grade!!!"

Sure, and of course according to the gullible the history of CB goes back "over a 100 years" to the days it was actually called Yeshiva Chachmei Lublin in Brooklyn. Well that has all been the mythology and revisionism that RAF and his cronies have tried to project that CB is this very old mosad going back over a 100 years, which is true in some ways but has no shaychos to the REAL CB which only begins to exist with the arrival of RYH and its spiritual and existential take-over, by RYH in 1936 who by dint of his genuine gadlus and genius put the high school on the map and the 1936 class among the real CB anash history is considered like the REAL "year one" when CB began in earnest. It is best that the stories of how Rav Shurkin and Rav Snow, and other rebbeim like them, were eventually over-shadowed and dethroned is not focused upon at this time. It may surprise you that I prefer to focus on RYH's positive achievements and that one thing be VERY clear, RAS is only ONE of RYH's many disciples and even to this day, within CB there is unspoken yet clear tension between RAS and all the rest, so that RAS is in a race against time as he is now in his ninth decade of life, to place his own family and followers in every imaginable slot (he makes a few bows to RAF and appeases him since he is the financial pillar of the yeshiva) but in the last decade all of RAS's three sons-in-law and his son have received top positions in the yeshiva, something RYH never did and even scorned because (a) he only had one daughter and one son-in-law who have no chidren and (b) he openly scorned and bemoaned Rebbishe successions based on yichus and family connections alone.

And to the obvious RAS attack dog anonymous of Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:57:00 AM who says things like:

"Stop kissing up to the Tzig, it takes no guts to run an anonymous blog."

Saying thank you is not kissing up. Oh, and have you ever been around RAS for a day and seen how many people kiss up to him? Get some perspective man.

"The reason he publishes your stuff is that since he joined Lubab inc he has gotten their 'enemy list' and decided to do 'Mivtza bashayegetz un bashmutzen'"

Baloney. He has no lists. This is all good stuff. How long can anyone read party line "Yeshiva World" or "Vos Iz Neies" or "Matzav" withouteither getting bored or throwing up and then there are the blogs run by people who reject everything like "Failed Messiah" and "Luke Ford" and even "Un-Orthodox Jew" who just lose all credibility with their diatribes and never coceding that hey, there is lots that is good about Yiddishkeit. So that Tzig needs to be complimented for his labor of love and at least taking the time out, as a dedicated frum Jew for doing what he does, andf he gives all people equal airtime, so instead of complaining write up (if you can) your disagreements and debate them, and yes he is now Lubavicth, and as any Kiruv worker knows many people will land up with Lubavitch because it is what answers their innermost needs and makes them happy and everyone else needs to respect that and not make fun of it. He is trying to balance out the picture. I have been only among the yeshivish velt for a very long time and in that time I have hardly heard a good word said about Chabad, so trop being a cry-baby when the the Litvaks are guilty of the same bashmutzenkeit when they talk of "Chabadskers" disparagingly. Many people in both sides have immature outlooks like kids competeing in ball games that have no shaychos to anything. Grow up.

"Chaim Berrlin rates pretty high on the Lubab 'enemy list'"

Rubbish. Many Lubabs are actually very proud of CB and RYH, that is if they even care to know anything about the subject because they view RYH as a kind of distant lost relative who took on their Torah in earnest in the Ma'amorim (much of RYH's derech is from Tanya and RAS is probabaly the biggest boki in Tanya on this planet and has taught it to some select talmidim over the years) and even the levush of many CB rebbeim with the wearing of gartlech and putting on "Prince Albert" long black coats and for their love of the MAHARAL that gives them a direct open bond with the Torah's Chabad. CB and Lubavitch are more similar than any other Litvish vs. Chasidish group for those in the know, so try not to have childish perceptions.

"apparently because R'Hutner was one of the few who knew the Rebbe personally ans was not maskim to be 'mekabel malchus' and we all know what a 'moired b'malchus' gets...."

This is utter shtus and baloney. RYH and the last Lubavitcher Rebbe had a personal PROFESSIONAL RIVALRY, something like that between the deans of Yale and Harvard lehavdil, that while they opposed each other on the level of many ideas and would not let each other's disciples fall into the other's school of thought, nevertheless they were admirers of each other's strengths and knew of each other's weaknesses. Just to prove how wrong you are, when RYH was hijacked by the PLO's Black Sepetember terrorists and was held prisoner in Jordan in 1970, it was RAS's youngest son who went to the Rebbe to report the news to him and the Rebbe spoke berabim and gave RYH a brocha, something along the lines that "may of all the MAHARAL that he taught be a zechus for his safe release" and in Lubavitch they regard that as THE brocha that secured RYH's eventual release. I know this may sound funny to non-Lubavitchers but all Chasidim really believe that words and brochas of their Rebbes can be po'el yeshu'os and matir assurim.

Anonymous said...

>What about R. Moshe Shmuel Shapiro? What was his position in CB from 1925-1950?

to mr. know it all:

He was the ELEMENTARY SCHOOL MENAHEL, no affiliation at that point with the high school but in name.

An Ailmesher said...

I see from R. Moshe Shmuel Shapiro's sefer that people were trying to push him out of Chaim Berlin. Was anyone famous involved, like RYH?

The Bray of Fundie said...

RAS is probabaly the biggest boki in Tanya on this planet and has taught it to some select talmidim over the years

fascinating. Care to name some?

RYH as a kind of distant lost relative who took on their Torah in earnest in the Ma'amorim (much of RYH's derech is from Tanya ...or their love of the MAHARAL that gives them a direct open bond with the Torah's Chabad. CB and Lubavitch

Question: Tzig as I am a Chabad ignoramous is it true that Chabad is rooted in MAHRAL?

Comment: As we are seguaying from RSF I think that if you ask old Shor Yoshuv-niks they'll tell you that RYH unique mehalekh was more rooted in Chagas specifically Przshischa Chasidus by way of Izhbitz and Lublin, than in Chabad.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Question: Tzig as I am a Chabad ignoramous is it true that Chabad is rooted in MAHRAL?

Chabad tradition is that when the Baal HaTanya says in his Hakdomoh that it's taken MiPi Seforim and Sofrim that he means the MaHaRaL, among others.

Anonymous said...

telshe yeshivas money problems began when?? who has been doing the fundraising all these years???

Anonymous said...

I cannot believe that Rav Ahron Shechter is as evil as you paint him out to be. But I would like to make one point: See Matzav.com's coverage of the latest Chinuch Atzmai meeting. Look at the pictures. Carefully. R' Yitzchok Sorotzkin is sitting next to . . . Rav Ahron Shechter. Obviously, he has no taanas on him even though RAS ruled against him. And, as someone who knows RYS, he is way too much a tzadik to be involved in sheker.

This should boost our condfidence in sages.

Anonymous said...

Obviously, he has no taanas on him even though RAS ruled against him.


R' Yitzchok was NOT involved in the din torah at all and there was no psak for or against him he left telshe on his own volition

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Anonymous of Friday, June 27, 2008 9:51:00 AM notes: "...But I would like to make one point: See Matzav.com's coverage of the latest Chinuch Atzmai meeting. Look at the pictures. Carefully. R' Yitzchok Sorotzkin is sitting next to . . . Rav Ahron Shechter..."

Thank you for bringing this to our attention because these are a fascinating set of photographs, and as they say, a picture worth a thousand words so that "Matzav.com" publishes 13 pictures that're worth a lot more, and each one is a classic. Thus "News From The Torah World: Exclusive Photos of Chinuch Atzmai Meeting of Rabbonim" Posted: 26.JUN.08, see the Index/Gallery of "Chinuch Atzmai Meeting of Rabbonim" at http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/indexGallery.htm

(1) In this first photo http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_1.htm an Israeli representative of Chinuch Atzmai (CA) is greeting a faintly smiling Rav Dovid Feinstein (RDF) with Rav Malkiel Kotler (RMK) also faintly smiling in the background. The meeting is being held in RAS's headquaters at CB yeshiva.

(2) It sure looks like it's Rav Yosef Efrati (RYE) (or someone who looks a lot like him), the close confident of Rav Elyashiv from Israel being introduced to RAS http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_2.htm each with a hint of a faint smile, with no beaming faces anywhere, (well it is a serious meeting, but this is not the end of the Earth on the table, everyone looks welll-dressed and well fed in the photos, so why no cheer?)

(3) This shot is fascinating http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_3.htm While RAS has his finger raised and seems to be saying what RMK and RYE find kinda funny, RDF looks tuned out and turned off and his body language is in pure defense mode, maybe in protection against whatever it is RAS is saying. And take a look at the rabbi on the left, to the right of RDF, it is none other than Rav Chaim Benoliel (RCB), the Rosh Yeshiva of the Sefardi yeshiva Mikdash Melech in Brooklyn. He is looking down at the table, at a copy of RYH's Sefer Pachad Yitzchok (this is surely RAS's "boardroom"!) and he is looking most unhappy and away from RAS. Hmm, why is that? Could it be that it's because his daughter married the oldest son of RSC and he feels conflicted and tormented to be in the same room as his mechutan's nemesis? Or that he heads the poor Sefardic yeshiva for mostly non-Syrians, and the rabbi who represents the rich Syrian's of Flatbuch, Chacham Harai Raful is missing? (Why couldn't RAS summon him? he spends his summers at CB's Camp morris after all and CB helped him build his yeshiva with money from the Reichmans.) Whatever the reasons are, RCB body language says "get me outa here" and "what can I do -- I must do this for Klal Yisrael"!

(4) This picture http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_4.htm is a classic and it's a wonder anyone could think it would help any cause: The Israeli rep for CA is pleading his case to RAS who looks positively angry. RYE is looking down at the ground spacing out or thinking some loftier Torah thoughts, RDF has the classic bored and defensive look, Rabbi Yisroel Reisman (RYR) has now arrived on the scene and he looks very unhappy, maybe he has the jitters because the CBers once attacked him for him saying some not nice things in his popular shiur about RYH's theories about "ga'ava dekedusha" (seems the rabbis are coming in waves here). The rabbi to the left of RAS is in complete "defense mode" body language.

(5) More of the same here http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_5.htm as in (4).

(6) Rav Yitzchok Sorotzkin (RYS) now arrives http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_6.htm and he is put in between RAS and the rabbi who was sitting next to him earlier. RAS does not look too amused by what he is hearing either and noone looks happy.

(7) Not clear what's happening now http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_7.htm as someone has gone off to get a tea or coffee to stay awake. RYE is still looking down at the floor. And RDF still has his fist to his face and the other hand looks like it's about to attack. Meanwhile RYS sits with arms folded not knowing what to make of it all, but RAS seems more reasssured by RYS's presence than by the other rabbi who had been sitting in that seat and moved one down.

(8) Noone is happy http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_8.htm Looks like it's the Novominsker, Rav Yaakov Perlow (RYP) (back to camera) speaking. RCB looks positively trapped, and why doesn't RYE raise his head from looking down at the floor? Is he allergic to looking at RAS? Who knows what he is thinking.

(9) Now RYE speaks up http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_9.htm , still looking away from RAS, and with his hands he seems to be creating space for himself before he gets to his next words, his body language is half defensive and half wishing he could jump out from that room, and RAS is looking angry with very aggressisve body language (he knows no other!) and looks like if he could reach out to RYE and shake him up, he would.

(10) RAS and the Novominsker (RYP) talk at the same time http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_10.htm , like "talking twins", what else is news? because they show up at many meetings together. Just that RYP is a much nicer person and has not crossed anywhere near the same amount of people as RAS, and there is no need for that kind of thing either. This is also the photo that shows from the body language that RAS and RYS have a great "father-son" respect for each other, that while RAS can safely leave his left flank open while RYS acts deferentially (RAS's favorite way that he wants anyone to be to him, "yes men").

(11) RYP is now talking http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_11.htm and to his left RYR wonders how he got landed at this meeting. RCB is looking away from RYP as well and still not at RAS either, but at least he has no scowl when he looks away from RYP. In the meantime, RDF has clenched his left fist, grimaces, and looks like he would like to sock RYP in the jaw as well. And...RYE is back to looking down at the floor and not at RAS. (How could anyone think that these are good "PR" photos?)

(12) Finally, the core and the tachlis of the CA mission from Israel has arrived, so that while still looking downwards the rabbi of the mission has his hands open in the clear "help us" begging and schnorring position http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_12.htm : "Helft unz (Ameyrikaner) brieder!" But noone is happy or proud to be there. He is talking to rabbis and rosh yeshivas who have to do as much if not more fundraising for their own institutions in America than what this CA mission has come to beg for (it is for bus transportaion for Israeli kids or something.) BUT the REAL people the CA needed to see, and probably were hoping to see, since there are plenty oh holy rabbis in Israel, like RAF of CB who has very deep pockets and Ruby Schron who has deeper ones and supports the nearby Mirrer yeshiva in Brooklyn (why are there no Mirrer rabbis present -- are they so "anti-Zionist" Briskers now that they will not help the Agudists from Israel and America?) or some rich Syrian Jews that are not in the picture. Besides, after RAS and CB are over with supporting Lev Le'Achim in Israel and a few other pet causes, there is little chance that CA will get what it needs from RAS. So why is this charade held? (a) The CA people think and hope that RAS will truly help when his only bottom-line goal is to keep CB going (and that is legitimate, it is his first responsibility) and (b) from the CB and RAS side they lose nothing from meetings like this on their premises (with seltzer and cake, and no herring) because it boosts them and RAS in the PR campaign to paint him as the champion of the weak and the oppressed when he is nothing of the sort. NOTE too that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky (RSK) is missing from this meeting, could it be because he opposed the way RAS supported Michael Hersh's treatment of his oppressed and weak son Isaac and that he was the one to call RAS a "rotzayach"? No wonder they are scared and mostly looking away or down or angry at that meeting. No smiles and simcha!

(13) Finally, the Novominsker has to have the last word (he loves to talk) http://www.matziv.com/pictures/chinuchatzmai/1/lg/Chinuch_Atzmai_Meeting_13.htm and his hands look like they are throwing the ball back into RYE's side of the court and that he will have to report back to Rav Elyashiv that the rich yankee Agudah rabbis are not coughing up the dough that's desperately needed, and that they are basically at a loss themselves. RYR is blocking one ear. RCB is still sitting through this, and why anyone thought he could help with money is a mystery and to yet put him through the torture of sitting through a meeting with the man who destroyed the life of RSC his son-in-law's father. RAS looks angry and his body language seems to say, everybody out because I must go to my next meeting. And still noone smiles. It's really tough being a gadol sometimes when all the other gedolim from Israel want is money, and lots of it regularly, and not dei'os.

Anonymous said...

Didn't Rabbi Miller put out a letter explaining his position? Why have you not put that letter up on your blog yet?

Anonymous said...

http://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFpWmdpZ2dQb0lLSkE9PQ

Anonymous said...

whoever is right or wrong doesnt matter the point is your wrong formaking a biger chilel hashem