Wednesday, April 21, 2010

yeh mekusher, nisht mekusher


letter from RaSHaG to the Rebbe, 5731

I know I'll regret this, but here goes anyway.

Some of you think that Lubavitch has a mountain of dirt that they hide. I see where you're coming from; you have the Himalayas when it comes to dirt you're hiding, so you assume the same is true with Lubavitch. But the truth is there may be details that were never made public, but other than that there's no real chapter in their history that's not out there and well-known. I say that with the utmost confidence, as hard as that is for many of you to believe. Take, for example, the period of Yud Shvat 5710 to 5711, or even until after 5713, when RaSHaG finally accepted the new reality in Lubavitch and wanted to be a part of it. It depends on your general level of knowledge; if you're above average you know all the details, if not, not. Judging policy by what a general boor in history knows is childish. Yes, ימי בראשית doesn't mention the ins and outs, but since when do we start and finish with a book put out by a few bachurim? They decided not to get into the nitty gritty of things; back in '94 that was the way things went often times. I doubt they'd make the same book today, even those same guys. As far as Deutsch is concerned, I'm not sure what exactly he would "reveal" that wasn't known, despite the fact that he was livid at the end result of the book, calling it "lies" and worse. I guess he would've wanted to be the historical advisor to the book, then it would all be OK. After all, by now we all know that he has become THE authority on animals and the Mishnos and Gemoros that discuss them.... He'll tell you that himself. How he went from historian to zoologist is beyond me.

So I was sent this letter by a reader. I guess there could be several reactions here. 1) it's a forgery. 2) he was suffering from Stockholm syndrome. 3) So what, it's natural after 20 years to be swept up by the prevailing mood in Lubavitch. 4) Wow! he really was mekusher! But why should it matter? Why should his life of askanus be measure by feelings of the heart and which we may never know? I understand the need and the will to have him on our side, but don't feel the need to vindicate him in the first place. The charges are silly, pay no heed to them. Those that want to believe that RaSHaG was slighted here and had it stolen from him will believe that no matter what the facts prove, and those that claim that he never came over to "our" side will always have those first two or three years to "back it up." So where does that leave the rest of us? Somewhere in the middle, I guess, as is the case with most other issues.

74 comments:

Anonymous said...

Tzig Taiyereh,

The fact remains mekushar to an extent (are'nt we all?). There is much to be discussed, some of which is like what some think. I agree that laundry does not have to done in public, zolst vissen there is plenty of it.

And to our sonim: yes our Rebbe was a chevraman in addition to everything else, got the neseeyus and we're very proud of it, just like the chassidim in Lubavitch who were proud of the Rebbe Maharash who got the neseeiyus in town!!!!!! There is no smoking gun! Duvid did not kill shaul...

YT Sheini

Anonymous said...

Why the cheap shot against Deutsch??
He knows more history than you will ever know, he knows more zoology than you will ever know and yes he knows much more Torah than you and most Lubavitchers.
He also had the guts to get out of the cesspool and leave.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the only one taking cheap shots is him, in the videos, where he attacks most of Klal Yisroel as being ignorant.

Tell me please, where did all this Torah knowledge come from, Oholei Torah?

Leroy said...

Mekusher is sending to Chabad Mosdos no matter what (PERIOD).

Zoology of the Nefesh HaBehamis...
no evidence at all ;)

Betzalel said...

As a non Lubavitcher why should someone care whether Rabbi Gurarie was "mekusher" or not? Fair enough if you are a Lubavitcher.

An interesting observation is that there is no question that the rebbe was much more brilliant a bigger talmid chochom and a charismatic leader, than Rabbi Guarie.BUT there is a but here.Had Rabbi Gurarie been rebbe Lubavitch would have not been at odds with the rest of the frum world.
Food for thought.
Sorry that I don't prescribe to the belief that Lubavitch changed the Jewish world.I believe that the Jewish world would be quite similar.There has been natural interest in spirituality post Vietnam and whoever would have wanted to explore Jewish roots would have.I don't see any major Lubavitch effect.
Intellectually Lubavitch has left very little impact on the world outside of Chabad.
Just my opinion, would love to hear other objective voices

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Betzalel
allow me to safely assume that you know VERY little about RaSHaG.

The fact remains that the Previous Rebbe began what the Rebbe later took to the next level.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"He knows more history than you will ever know,"
My son was their awhile back with a friend and asked Big Shimmy on 1 of his facts he madly answered did you come to look and hear or to ask...
BTW, why is Pikarsky the BIL not by him anymore ? he went back to Bies Menachem(pardon your french "cesspool" )

Anonymous said...

what's with the "geesey" in between C"K and Admor. is that how it's always written?

Anonymous said...

Anon
" he knows more zoology than you will ever know"
How lucky can u get, he probably met Slifkin on the way

"he knows much more Torah than you and most Lubavitchers."
please look up his old pamphlets when he translated some Tzemach Tzedek material, he was a laughing stock, couldn"t read simple Loshen Kodesh

Anonymous said...

Betzalel
Who exactly started the BT movement on a grand scale that encompasses the whole charadie world, All Chasidim (but Satmer) and all Yeshiveish (but brisk)
I don"t want to argue who is doing it better etc.. just who started it ?

Anonymous said...

ונזכה שכ"ק ... יוליכנו לקבל פני משיח

that's not real התקשרות, in fact, it's borderline ליצנות.

Halevi said...

Yeh Mekushar Nisht Mekushar; I don't know of many other people that gave away their wife and child for the Rebbe

Joe in Australia said...

I don't think it's worth discussing hypothetical nesi'im, but the Rebbe ZYA followed the policies of his predecessor ZYA and I can't imagine that RaShaG would have done differently. The animosity against Lubavitch arose directly from these policies, so I think the haters would have found a similar target in RaShaG.

nonmouse said...

the rashag was the ultimate chasid chabad, moach shalit al halev. he is the only person I ever heard of who was a strong contender for a throne, fought for it, lost and didn't leave defeated or start his own company. that is a sign of true greatness.

he was a chasid. period. he lost and knew it. it took a year but he was afterwards machniya to the rebbe, simply because he was the the rebbe.

he could have started his own company with his followers and the rayatz's physical yerusha (anyone know where the spudik is) he could have simply left, yet he stuck it out and watched and helped someone else succeed on the throne he considered rightfully his. zy"a

Anonymous said...

Joe,
You are correct,Chabad in Poland was not loved neither,

schneur said...

Whats the "chidush" here in this letter. Of course its nice to read it, but we all know that Rashag was oficially part of the New Path after a few years.
He ws a gentleman, and had 2 choices start his own BM and hoif and there were gvirim who would back him (Kramer family for example) or stay in his position in CH. He chose the later and made practical peace with that.
Saying that , this leter and other actions by him show nothing of what whent on in his mind. That sort of thing can only be gleamed from interviews with his huiz mentchen.Good biographical studies in the secualr world seek to explore the inner mind of their subject. I do not know who his confidants were. But clearly the 2 people closest to him (perhaps I should say 4) had a policy of not forgiving and forgetting.
His actions in the Book case also reveal little , he was a very sick man , in and out of Cornell Hospital on the Uper East Side. He was clearly not in physical or mental position to take any earth shaking positions.I very much doubt , that in his heart he thought his son and wife were wrong.Conversations with his son revealed interesting info and quotes from the Rashag, but I will not publicize them.
Frankly a close examination of the nature of the Seforim case and lets be objective here not mekushorim (Mekushorim and chasidim adukim should not be here) it was not the Rashag who carried the fight on from 1950 , but someone else.
By the way calling the Rashag an askan is a real put down. He knowledge of Dach and bing the Chadban made him much more of an askan. The Raayaatz wrote a letter of introduction for him i the late 1930's when he came to EY to explore business opportunites. the letter was even printed in KCH magazine , does it sound there that the rashag is an askan ? Was the Rayaatz an askan from 1896-1920 ?

schneur said...

Shimon Deutsch.
Deutsch never publically claimed he was a major rabbinic figure in terms of lomdus. As you implied he knows what the average OT graduate knows.As far as a Rebbe, the late Satmarer rebbe said if you claim to be a rebbe you are a rebbe since the title is excuse me meaningles in our era.
He is an excellent archival researchrer and uncovered much interesting material. Just as an example no one bothered to find the Rebbe's academic records, who his teachers in Berlin were , who his friends and landlord was. Of course where he studied ? He has much unpublished material about his school days in Paris the bulk of which shows the Rebbe in a frum manner.
Rabbi Laufer (kvodo bimkomo..) never did such ,relying on purely Chabad sources. But since the rebbe's life from 1902-1944 was not purely Chabad other sources needed study.
His museum is very interesting . I have some criticisms of it , but nevertheless it is a major educational tool and " bli guzma "thousands of Tinokes shel bes rabban have visited it. In additon dozens of impt rabbis have been there like Rabbis Belsky ,Rav Schachter of RIETS Rav Landau of Tosh and others.Frankly I thought he would get into trouble , no way they all liked it. I am not a Biblical scholar , but I must say the Museum is an educational tool.Since I am not a Misnaged I can say some negative things: Deutsch according to the blog claims to be a Biblical scholar, historian , rebbe, lamdan etc why not he came from the same Bais hayotzer as shluchim across the nation who claim to be rabbonim , psychologists, experts in kabbalah(practical and theoretical),chaplains, experts in dibbukim , mediattaion experts all without going to college( and not going to high school either in many cases) a few years in a yeshiva. Not bad !! I am just suprised none of them claims to be Lubavitcher Rebbe !(maybe when they start attending unviversity that thought too will cross their minds)

Anonymous said...

>>I don"t want to argue who is doing it better etc.. just who started it ?

I would say Aish Hatorah and Ohr Someyach, although Lubavitch did set up a large effort to prostelyze innocents into becoming lubavitch. . . only to drop them when those Jews found some real meaning outside of lubavitch. And lets not forget why the rebbe really started this crusade in the first place!

Anonymous said...

Tzig and Joe are correct !!!

It was the Rebbe Rayatz who already started being at odds with the rest of the frum world

yitz

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
The Unik family were his hoiz people, and I heard from them alot, non of it what you are trying to portray, I always thought that in the academic world all what counts is, that you have a paper trail to prove it, you can not create a theory on rumors and innuendos, it seems that your bias will lead you any half baked rumor. Why exactly did he have to write that Chanifa letter to the Rebbe? did Bentzi Shemtov have a gun by his head? or he needed a raise from his own office?

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"Rabbis Belsky ,Rav Schachter of RIETS Rav Landau of Tosh and others"
how many phone calls did he make untill they came

S. said...

> back in '94 that was the way things went often times

Do you realize how weird this statement sounds?

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
"He knowledge of Dach and bing the Chadban made him much more of an askan."
you are correct that he knew alot of Dach, the word in 770 was that he knew 600 mamorim by heart, and he chazered it every Shalash Seudas in 770 with his small circle. But you can not change he fact that his life was dedicated for askunas,

Anonymous said...

Non Mouse,
Belzer Rovs(Reb Aron) brother the Bilgrayer Rov was fighting to become a duo hanhoga he shall be the Rov in Belz and his brother Reb Aron the Rebbe as the deal is in Bobov of Unger/Rubin, The Levaye of the father(reb Yisocher Dov) was held up for hours till the Bilgrayer and his mother were forced to back off. The letters of the Gaboim were hinting for a while after, that the other part of the family didn"t like it , but they were subdued till they made peace with the fact and in latter years the Bilgrayer was the biggest Mekusher of his brother

betzalel said...

"Betzalel
allow me to safely assume that you know VERY little about RaSHaG.

The fact remains that the Previous Rebbe began what the Rebbe later took to the next level."

Hirshel,
Why do you think I know so little about Rabbi Gurary? Why do you think you knew him better? You joined Lubavitch not that long ago, maybe even AFTER Rabbi Gurary died.
So I"m not assured about anything besides your unfounded claims.
Schneour, someone who knew him and his son is a person who could give us a glimpse at how Chabad would have looked had he been at the helm.
Oh, about carrying on the Previous Rebbes path:Actually, though there had been some clashes with the rest of the world,Chabad was still very much part of what we call the Chareidi World during the Previous Rebbes lifetime, additionally,I think you would know that Rabbi Gurary was not that close with his father-in-law, or( maybe it was the other way round).The bottom line is that Chabad would have looked very different under his leadership

schneur said...

Anonymous
I will find out how many phone calls it took to get the gedolim if you tell me how many phone calls it takes to get the Banshakim to show up at the Siyyum Harambam's.Since Chabad is good at getting phone bills lets see the phone bills.
I don't get it the huge Chabad community "fargint nit" Deutsch his small Museum is it competition to your massive glass structure at president and EP ?
What's this all about stam "sina and kinoe".

schneur said...

Anonymous.
History and critical biographies are written with much more than published materials . If that was all than any one could collate material and have a biography.
A serious critical study includeds the follwoing :
1. Interviews with family members, friends and associates
2. Investigation of diaries, journals and other non publsihed materials.It is this sort of material that often reveals what a man truely believes.
3. Study of correspondence letters and the like.

Thus several letters written to the Rebbe , the testimony of several people and some random remarks etc do not make a biography.
I would tend to believe the word of a son rather than that of others although I believe that Yunik was telling you the facts the way he saw them.
Aderabba. Why not underrtake a comprehensive investigation into the Rashag and see what you can find. Perhaps I am wrong in my what you guys call "hergesh".

Tzvi said...

R'Shaul Shimon Deutsch is a nice talmid chochom, certainly not your average Oholei Torah grad.He has grown a lot since he left Crown Heights and loosened his ties with Lubavitch.After all Crown Heights and Lubavitch in general are not exactly bastions of Torah scholarship.Before all the Lubavitcher apologists start screaming about the Kalmanson brothers and Tzi Hirsh Telsner (who is a Meshichist,btw)and few other knowledgeable individuals,I am talking in general terms. That means there are a few learned people in Lubavitch but your amcho rov is a guy who uses the internet to collect info for his "halacha" shiur in his Chabad House.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
"don't get it the huge Chabad community "fargint nit" Deutsch his small Museum is it competition to your massive glass structure at president and EP"


Who in Chabad doesn"t Fargin? or knows that he exist?
is it your paranoia ? or Shimmys chip on his shoulder? I just want to know the real facts with no illusions , since Shimmy has a Tzavoe of the the Rebbe that the truth has to be said no matter where the chips may fall.
Since you are the mouthpiece of the Liozhner court, Plz explain why exactly did Shimmys father and BIL start to daven in the Bies Menachem of BP ? its mamesh like reb Burech the father of the first Liozhner Rebbe that left his son to Hungary because he didn"t like his sons style(according to Greenwald of Columbus)

Anonymous said...

Tzvi,
"R'Shaul Shimon Deutsch is a nice talmid chochom"
can you deliver us some facts, is he next the upcoming posek hador in BP after Reb Yecheskel Roth? Reb Menashe Klien? or he deliver the biggest Daf Yomi shiur after Rav Zoberman? his weekly kuntriesim were a embarrassment for a OT alumni, please look on the kovtzim of Oholie Torah how nice the bochurim write chidushei torah in Nigleh and chassidus for 30 years. I apologize for being apologetic, since Chabad has no right to defend themselves, they are doomed by the world court in Brussels

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
the Unik family can not serve the purpose of"Interviews with family members, friends and associates" or we can only use the testimonies of a disgruntled son/ nephew with a obvious agenda?
I saw once a letter of the Reshag that he wrote to RJBS of Bostoner mentioning his BIL the Rebbe with great reverence, obviously it means nothing since we can not accept anything positive, since the academic world is stacked against the Rebbe

Anonymous said...

As someone who was a fill-in hoiz bochur a few times for the Rashag, and as someone who knows Shimmy Deitsch from Yeshivah days, camp and beyond, I'll throw in my few kopecs:

Re Rashag: Yes, he was devoted (in his own way) to the Rebbe from quite early on. If I recall corectly from the reshomos, it was shabos mevorchim Iyar 5712 that he first appeared for the whole farbrengen. [in fact, during this period, even Reb Shmuel Levitin would not officially attend the Rebbe's farbrengen proper mishum kovod to the alte Rebbetzin and the Rashag. Reb Shmuel would remain in the cheder sheni, behind where the Rebbe sat for farbrengen upstairs. It was only when the rebbe began a ma'amar that reb Shmuel wold "sneak in" to hear.]

Anyways, a lot of why the Rashag did not take over had to do with personality flaws. Going back all the way to Rostov, chasidim had a quite negative view of him. Just read the (unpublished?) reshimos of Yitzchok Goldin, where he describes how in the shnas ho'avelus after the Rashab died and the Rayatz was gravely ill, 1920-1, how bochurim and anash were literally dying from typhus and hunger, and the Rashag refused to give out money for food! Likewise, how he penalized people during there hard times by not paying them or giving them money for food. It got so bad that Goldin had to "let it all out" to the Rayatz IN THE RASHAG's PRESENCE about the Rashag's sadistic ways. The Rayatz agreed with Goldin against his own son-in-law!

Then there is the (in)famous reshimo-yoman that the Rayatz wrote about the Rashag's obnoxious behavior during their visit to Israel...

Etc. etc.

Yes, he was mekusher from the ealy '50s on, but as we all know, he still behaved as his own man. Ask anyone who was at the Rebb'es farbrengens and saw how the rashag just there at the edge, his head in his hand, looking either down or away -- in short, not the ideal image of total ibergegebenkayt. Yes, he was a maskil etc., but if he was such an amazing maskil, why then is there not one deep torah or biur in chasidus from him?

Then there were his duplicitous ways of how he passed on during his farbrengens sichos of his father-in-law as if he heard them himself, when in reality he borrowed these hanochos from others!

But it is true, he was ultimately given over to the Rebbe.

There is a vast archive of letters from the Rashag filling up many tall file cabinets. They used to be housed in the basement the Lubavitcher Yeshivah on Ocean Parkway, though I heard that they were moved to a while back to another location.

I'm sure that there is more to discover.

Re Shimmy Deitsch:

First off, if I recall correctly, he went for a while as a bochur to Brooklyn College. (His friend then was Danny Weiss of Lakewood scandal fame... these two even put out their own English Jewish themed magazine that lasted not more than an issue or 2.)

Secondly, he is by far not a deep talmid chochom. Just read his "Likutey Drashos" that he came out with weekly.

As far as scholarly work goes, I caught him more than once making blatant am-ho'oretzdike mistakes in deciphering manuscripts, and drawing erroneous conclusions based on it. When I pointed it out to him once, he just ignored it and went on to defend the point he was pushing.

Perhaps he is somewhat of a sleuth, knowing to go dig up material at the old YIVO on 5th ave. on the Upper East Side before other novice researchers jumped on board. Maybe he had more patience to go through the material over various libraries and to travel overseas to pursue his investigations. But that does not a competent scholar make.

Even back when he was in camp and Yeshivah, he was knows as a fantizyor, whose vivid imagination bordered on delusion.

But then again, he would not be the first "rebbe" to be so.

-- ZIY

schneur said...

Why doesn't anyone read what i writing carefully. maybe I should write in Yiddish, Hebrew , maybe Chinese ...
Please don't take my words out of context.
This is what always happens here instead of talking about the Rashag , we get people blasting R. Deutsch , for his museum his kuntresim etc. DO what rabbi Krinsky did ignore him !
I am his mouthpiece , anyone who knows me , knows how silly that statement is.
I can not resist this if you are interested why his father and BIL Piekarski daven in Beth Mnachem , I am interested in knowing why the Rebbe's brother davened in ... who knows where!!!
Hey all I am calling for is for a serious investigation in the Rashags relationship with his BIL, not based on ed echad, and if we are basing it on ed echad I think a son has more knowledge of the intimate thoughts of a father than a friend.

Belzer Choosid said...

Re: Belz info

Thanks for the story about RMR wanting to be Rov in תרפז , perhaps prodded by his mother, who wasn't RAR's mother.

This only whets the appetite and raises more questions.

Did RMR think Belzer Chasidim would go for that? He was 22 years younger than RAR? Did RYBR leave any tzavoeh of any kind?

What was the relationship of Belzers to RMR in the 30 years that RAR was Rebbe, did RMR fihr tishen, take kvitlech, was that a problem?
Belzer chasidim weren't shy with Redifos, and didn't easily forgive.

Was there some kind of issue w RMR taking kvitlech in Antwerp after the war?

What did Belzer Chasidim want after תשיז, that there shouldnt be any Rebbe at all? Was it becuase they thought no one could fill RAR's shoes?

תורה היא וללמוד אני צריך

Anonymous said...

Shneur,
"I am interested in knowing why the Rebbe's brother davened in ... who knows where!!"
every in chabad knows it that he wasn"t frum,

Your call for a investigation as if something major happened,as if Andrew Comuo the AG likes to bury his enemies by calling for investigations.

Anonymous said...

Belzer Chosid
when RMR was out of town in Paris or Antwerpen he took Kevitlech and fihr Tishen the big shpitz chasidim obviously didn"t participate.

I heard that they wanted rarly on the Klausenburger Rov, but the old chasidim claim that they wanted the rebbe of today to learn a few years and to grow up to listen to old chasidim as the Rosh Yeshiva Rav Brander . but he had no patience to wait.

Anonymous said...

Anon

When RMR was in antwerp all the chassidim gave kvitlach even the shpitz cusid Reb Yidel Dubezker for one reason and one reason only because

the Rov Hot Geheisen to be mekarev der bruder

Friendly Anonymous said...

Why did the Rashag had to write letters to the Rebbe when they lived so close to each other? why couldn't he just stop by for a talk?

Anonymous said...

Anon,
My father was there and he told me that it was a Pekida Milmala that every one should give him kvitlech and still certain people didn"t give since they believed to understand the Kavona Penimis

Anonymous said...

Anon 10;57
are you from old belzer background? I need to ask u something?

Anonymous said...

R Tzig
What up with Leibel's math Chidushim? Is it true that Pnimiyos'dige bachurim study it?

another talmid said...

re Rashag, I am way too young to have been around in those years, but I heard from chasidim who were around in the yuds that the impression people got was that rashag was a chasid once he decided to become one (in his own way, of course).
obviously every one knows over the years he became mor emekusher (by the lameds this letter was typical, but would never have been written in the yud's)
but chasidim in the know used to say he was more of a chosid of the rebbe than of the rebbe rayatz.
the sensitive material (which does not involve rashag directly) I do not want to write about because tzarske familieh.. and I am surprised r' schneur never hinted at that, I dont imagine he is unaware.
just a small anecdote i heard from the one it happened to;
in the later years one of the bochurim who was in the hospital with him at one his visits, was asked by him one shabbos to ask the rebbe for a brocho when he walks into farbrengen. the bochur agreed but was afaid to for some reason, and thought he would pass the msg to leibel or binyomin. rashag wasn't speaking clearly in those days and kept repeating 'dooo zolst betn' and the bochur agreed a few times.
when he walked in he went over to leibel and the rebbe called him over, and he had no choice but to pass the msg on directly.

another talmid said...

to anon 25/4 7:04
I am no pnimi so maybe thats why i do not know, but i do have much interactin with all sorts of bachurim and never heard of it being an avoda to learn it (besides for Silman's 1 man show 'RYAL institute')

I expect you to find fault with this but these are the facts as i know them and i think tzig doesn't have that mcuh interaction with so many bochurim

schneur said...

Forgive me for writing this but after eading the post by anonymous about the Rashag I think this blog is playing by 2 dinim , 1 for Chabad and the rebbe and another for anyone who has the possibility of being a fremde even the Rashag. how could any one print "drek" like that about someone like the Rashag.
For everyone besides the Rebbe vefamalia delei you seem to believe in the absolute truth , for the rebbe and his people its obfuscation galore !
Do you think there is 1 person in the history of the world whose middos were perfect and at times did not upset his wife, children siblings, father, teacher ?How old was the rashag then perhaps 26 years old maybe much younger! What did the Yomon from 1929 say , i have a copy and if that was all the rashag's nagativity consists of, he was a real zaddik !
there is also some negative stuff there about another son in law who was not a cohen.
I think its time to start my own blog about one of my favorite subjects.
As far as Deutsch goes I stand by my description ,he is an excellent arcival researcher , how come no Chabad fellow came up with the Rebbe's academic record and who is teachers were ?
His museum is a fine institution and has won recognition from die velt from academics and rabbis alike.
As another person wrote Deutsch ahs grown since moving to BP.

schneur said...

Barry permited me to go through hundreds of boxes of his father"s letters and stuff housed in Montclair in the basement. I took what I wanted with his permission. Most of the stuff was not of interest and i am sure ZG and his cronies took the really interesting stuff, along with the rebbetzins clothing..
I would have wanted to take everything from the basement in Gates Avenue , but alas I found no one to build a Shmaryahu Gourary Library and Archives, so I presume most of it is in the garbage.
Just a note the Rebbe's relationship to the rashag is best shown by the following after Mrs. Goruary was chased from 770 by a vicious beating that no one ever ws moche against , both the Rebbe and his BIL were alone in CH , with no family to speak of yet they both had separate sedorim on Pesach each consisting of 1 person ...Ad zibula basraysa...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Reb Schneur

forgive me. I waited three days to post that comment, and I figured nobody would go back and see it anymore.

schneur said...

Belz - This chassidus like all Chagas movements perhaps with the exception of Ger (perhaps even here oone of the Imre Emes" brothers wanted to be a rebbe while his brother was alive))) allow for the children of a rebbe to assume some parts of the role of a rebbe even with out being a rebbe formally and continuing to offer aliegance to the formal rebbe.Especially if you were a shtot rav , so acts like tischen , kvittlech etc maybe are within the range of a non- rebbe: "rebbe" in chagas.
What is the status of the Satmarer rav in Monsey Halberstam is he a rav or rebbe ?
The same is true of many similiar people. Was rav Freund in Jslm also a rebbe ? In many respects he was but paid loyalty to the satmarer rebbe and was de facto rav of Satmar in Ir hakodesh.
In Chabad things are different there is 1 G-D and only 1 Rebbe although I have heard that Reb Levik also acted as a rebbe in some manner(Maamorim) as did rabbi Schneur Zalman Schneerson the son of the Reztizer rebbe who I think was rav in Homel after the death of the Rashab.For example in the lifetime of the 2nd Kopuster his half brother rabbi SN was rav in Bobruisk and as such he also acted as a sort of a rebbe while being loyal to his brother.
I heard from Anash (Lubavitch) who lived in tel Aviv in the late 1940's that there were issues in the hoif in belz , perhaps betwen the Bilgroyer and gabboim etc, because think of it after 120 the Bilgroyer would inherit all. Why should he fight the rav or upset him , but on the road he probably acted as a rebbe.
After the rav died some wanted the Naroler, others talked of some other people but there were no serious candidates besides today's rebbe. That is really a stoch to the Machnovker, his father was certainly not considered and I never heard of the Machnovker until the old Machnovker got old , had no children and it was an opportunity for Rav Yehoshua to legally yarsehn a rebbistve and I think that"s all he wanted.

schneur said...

Tzig. I understand , the rav once was asked after a speech isn't 50% of your speech (presentation) just theatrics / dramatics the rav replied 50% lets say more like 90%, thats true with much of my style too ! Alas +This is brought down in NEFESH HARAV by rav H. Schachter of YU.

Anonymous said...

ad zeebulah, etc... cool... never knew that

Anonymous said...

Schneur
We have to congratulate you for getting appointed as the offical mouthpiece of the Liozhner Court and the Gurary/Maplewood estates.
Just explain your 2 dinim, that you freely smear whomever, including the Rebbe and Chabad chasidim as a whole, and the Anon, is excluded from the freedom of speech

seen it all said...

schneur said,
"Just a note the Rebbe's relationship to the rashag is best shown by the following after Mrs. Goruary was chased from 770 by a vicious beating that no one ever ws moche against , both the Rebbe and his BIL were alone in CH , with no family to speak of yet they both had separate sedorim on Pesach each consisting of 1 person ...Ad zibula basraysa..."


If this is all u can come up with to support your theories, och in vei.
Chana G was attacked in the summer of 5745 by a deranged guy who took it very hard that barry once asked him to help carry a suitcase. He later realized that he was hiding seforim that he stole from the library. The Rebbitzen CM was niftar shvat 5748 so for the next 2 yrs the Rebbe did not "had separate sedorim on Pesach each consisting of 1 person". After 22 shvat 5748 the Rashag was not in a condition to have sedorim v'dal. I hope the other facts u quote are better sourced than this.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
The work of JEM is much more thorough, then the Holy Liozhner and they are not done yet, You can not wave 2 pieces of research for the rest of his career. Every amateur fisherman with a rod will have a once in a lifetime prize for a 50pounder salmon. That doesn't make a researcher as Walter Issacsohn

Anonymous said...

Seen it all
Schneur seems very desperate and he loses his cool at these subjects

Anonymous said...

FR always wanted to be a general.

seen it all said...

anon 5:47,
Most of the time he seems to know his facts. With many historians, when they have an agenda, they cherry pick whatever fits their view, and sometimes they get so caught up in proving their point, they write "facts" without doing basic research to see if it actually could have happened.

seen it all said...

anon 5:47,
Most of the time he seems to know his facts. With many historians, when they have an agenda, they cherry pick whatever fits their view, and sometimes they get so caught up in proving their point, they write "facts" without doing basic research to see if it actually could have happened.

Anonymous said...

Shneur,
Your analysis of Belz and their absolute hiskashrus is total wrong, the brothers of the last Belzer Rov were Rabonim in their cities with no strings attached to the hoif of belz, they didn"t dare to show any sign of hanoge for belzer chasidim, its true that the brother the Rebbe used his influence to get them Shteles in towns with a majority of belzer chasidim, if they created a tiny circle it was new blood with no attachment.I heard that in pre war Belz the Bilgrayer didn"t visit Belz only on his Fathers Yartziet.In Belz their was no concept as mashpim as in Chabad that were mini Rebbes starting by reb Hillel and ending by Reb Shloma Chaim and Reb Nissan, all because of the difference of philosophies.
in Israel the fight between the Bilegrayer and some Shpitz Chasidim had alot to do with money, he constantly was alarming that the brothers house is hefker their is money coming in with no one in charge. Obviously they were harassing him ruthlessly, when the Rov went to visit him in the hospital he pointed on certain chasidim not to follow him to the hospital. Their is a lot to talk on that epoch in Belzer History. The Bilgrayer rov was a giant on his own and he was the biggest asset in rebuilding his brothers Belzer Hoif in Israel.

Anonymous said...

seen it All
Emes Veyatziv Gut Gezugt

Anonymous said...

Shneur,
"I heard from Anash (Lubavitch) who lived in tel Aviv in the late"
did you hear that he was baking Erev Pesach Matzhos by Perman in Kfar Chabad /

schneur said...

Very interesting, the implication that Deutsch's book is not good scholarship. If thats the case why did Mr. Mendelson plagarize most of the book and publish it as his own? Further why did a Lubavitcher chasid in Paris translate the book and publish it as his own. If it is poor research why did Dr. Menachem Friedman make use of it in his new study of the Rebbe ? Wy do many academics quote it such as Marc shapiro, Kaplan (2 vol bio of Heschel) etc etc.If you people were half serious you would write the following :
Shomon Deutsch is no rebbe , he is a good researcher who helped uncover new facts about the rebbe and his assocaites. In addition he has contributed to the field of Bible reserach in the Orthodox community through his Museum in BP.Deutsch has failed to set up an alternative Chabad community but his campaign against extreme Messianism in Lubavitch contributed to the muting of such sentiments in the intenational Chabad communtiy.His charitable activities in BP through Tomchei Shabbes have assisted thousands of Jews including many residents of Crown heights.

schneur said...

Seen it all.
Your facts are wrong there was at least several years when the Rebbe was alone in CH and the Rashag was alone too as his wife was forced to live in Montclair , fearing for her life. I vividly recall Bere telling me that is father had the seder alone. and I asked why didnt the 2 BIL's do a joint seder I won't give you his reply. The casual manner you describe the attack on Rebbetzin Chana is not that of a disturbed man but of a calculating pre medidated attack seeking revenge on a women who according to you "used" this guy to 'hurt " the rebbe. IT sounds like a calcualting guy not a maniac.Although I may add the story as you tell it is not complete. There was incitement for this act.
By the way did the rebbe ever condemm the attack publically , how about the rebbe punishing the attacker ?
Finally please answer the follwing question in your mind which was worse the beating of a 90 year old Yiddene causing her to lose her eye sight or the removal of books from a library owned by the perps grandfather holding a will signed by his grandmother giving him claim to some of the books which he removed. Tell me which is a worse crime al pi halacha, and the moral code of the western world.Do you think beating a old woman is not a crime? Or is tit a crime we can quickly forget about. Perhaps that crime should be accordeda special day maybe we ought to call it Heh Teves Katan ...

Anonymous said...

by the way only one chosid did not give a kevitel to RMR when he was in antwerp and this chosid was one of the bigest mekruvim of the Belzer rov z"l

the parsha of the bilgurayer rov zt"l is a sad parsha but the minit he married the second rebezein tlit"a and he moved houses all the redifos stoped

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Whoever would write dirt on the Rebbe will be a hero by the self proclaimed " Israels Charadie Maven"Menachem Friedman that loves to run to the Media whenever some negative charadie news is brewing, he and his US partner Hiellman have clear agenda on Charidem and the Rebbe,His book is shoddy biography I am not even talking how bad the writing is,

Anonymous said...

Schner
before you get in your anti Rebbe tirades, maybe the Rebbe called him for the Seder and he he answered its more comfortable for him in private, Did your sources assure you that it didn't happen?

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"There was incitement for this act."
sources please!!!! or the Rebbes sicha was the incitement?

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"but his campaign against extreme Messianism in Lubavitch contributed to the muting of such sentiments in the intenational Chabad communtiy"
did he give lectures in Chabad or in his basement to detoxify people from the Messianic dogma ? or he wrote pamphlets with big influence on the Chabad masses? or his babbling on the Zev Brenner show did the job?

gershy said...

All you Lubavitcher apologists and stam idiots:Lubavitch has enough crazy sechoireh from the last twenty years with the Boreinuniks,Meshichists,Telsnerists and Ibiza besides all the butheads and so called normal that nobody needs to check whether Gurarie was a mekusher or a soineh.
Get that?
Besides nobody gives a rats mechileh about this dreque anyway

seen it all said...

Schneur,
Plz stop before all your credibility is gone. I wrote above that most of the time u seem to know your history. On this one, you're in outer space.

Go to montefiore and start reading dates on the matzeivos. The Rashag was niftar adar 5749. The Rebbitzen CM was niftar shvat 5748 After BG's mother was hit, it leaves 2 pesachs that the Rebbe had his sedorim with the Rebbitzen. Pesach 4748 the rashag was in no condition to have a seder v'dal. So your #1 is total hogwash.
It wasn't an attack, he knocked on the door, and when she opened it and saw him, she tried to close it. he pushed it open and the door hit her in the face. She fell down, and he took off. She then called her sister who called hatzolah for her. They had a system between them to recognize a phone call on shabbos, so she immediately called the rebbitzen. That night he took off to EY. When he got there, they put him into an insane asylum. The Rebbe had moiridike agmas nefesh from this whole episode, and wanted her to come back to 770. This guy was never around after this, and he was a known nutcase. About the suitcase, BG inadvertantly using him to carry his luggage set him off, but it is not clear that he intended to physically hit CG when he went upstairs.

In your conversations with BG, did he discuss his mother's burial? How the Rebbe sent people to him to bury her with her sister and mother? Did he tell u abt his condition that he knew would never happen?

Schneur, don't know when u "hung around" 770 and what yrs, and if your only source is BG, och in vei. I'm sure he told u about his strained relationship with his father, and how before yud shvat 5750 the only person in the family he was able to confide in was the Rebbe. Did u ask him why he never came to the yomtov meals in his beloved grandmother's house? over there his father had equal treatment with the Rebbe. How abt his yrs in D.C. when he mechallel shabbos b'farhesya? How abt his finally joining a shul when his father was niftar? If you're going to be an historian, get your facts right and then we would love to listen. BTW, I love most of your stuff abt european chassidishe hoifs. You've got talent, but you're allowing your biases to ruin your reptation.

Anonymous said...

Gershy
was French your second language in Elementary, you are very gooood at it

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"Finally please answer the follwing question in your mind which was....)
I am not getting what in the world is the relation between the 2, If the Chofetz Chaim would have a fight with a neighbor on some assets and his son or his friend would beat up the neighbor would he drop the case? I understand your love to the Beis Horav is Mamash Gevaldig since you are from the old Chabad with no sirtukim only deep chassidus, but it still has noting one with another, he was gone for good, nor like the Mashpia Reb Sholem Feldman that couldn"t come to 770 for years because of a punishment of the Rebbe for harassing the Reshag

מענדל said...

שניאור
דער מנחם פרידמאן איז דער וואס האט געזאט עדות מצד ב.ג. אין ספרים משפט?
איך בין געווען יענער טאג און ער האט ניט געוואוסט פשוטע זאכן וואס יעדער וואס האט א שייכות מיט ליובאוויטש ווייס. למשל וואס איז קה"ת ווען איז זי געגרינדענט געווארן. ווען איז תו"ת געגרינדעט געווארן א.ד.גל.
אויב דאס זיינען אונזער אקאדעמיקער איז ריכטיג וואס די חרידישע וועלט לאכט זיך אויס פון זיי.
מענדל

Anonymous said...

Mendel,
But you can not take it away from Friedman that he caught Chabad movement as a whole, red handed lying that the Rebbe didn't study in Sorbone College just across the street to Sorbone ??? as if it makes a big difference for the price of tea in China. He flaunted his finding in Haretz, Galie Tzhal every light-post that was ready to listen to this Ferd. Our great Schneur is in awe of this idiot since he owns the title doctor.

מענדל said...

Anon

ביי אונז זאגט מען אז דער דאקטער פארשטייט א קרענק, און יעצט זעץ דאס ווי דו ווילסט וד"ל
מענדל

Baruch said...

Re: JEM. Will anyone ever be allowed to view the uneditted interviews?