Tuesday, April 13, 2010

....נשאלתי ע"י חסיד אחד


Received via e-mail:

"My family has roots in Belz, both in Galicia, and in Hungary, with RYBR (Reb Yissocher Ber, ztzvk"l) and RAR (Reb Aharon, ztzvk"l) spending time in Hungary during WWI and WWII respectively. I'm very curious to know of the relationship between RAK, RMK (R Mordechai, Bilgorajer Rov ztzvk"l), and the Belzer chasidim. Particularly, if the Belzer chasidim were roidef RMR, who (at least in the whitewashed official history) was very getrei to RAR during difficult years, Also the circumstances of RMR's petira (1950), RAR's petira (1957) and the acceptance and non-acceptance of RBR (Reb Berel) as a youngster by old-time Chasidim, and his subsequent acceptance or rejection Be'meshech Ha'Shonim. Just to throw in another name, Machnovka, which shtams from Sar Sholem ztzvk"l, (and Reb Shia'le and Reb Yissocher Dov - HT) as a alternate Belzer Rebbe. Were they actually "Belzer Mordim"? While we're at it, some analysis of the turnabout of Belz vis-a-vis Agudah, from amolige Doires to Haynt. - "Torah Hu, Ve'Lilmod Ani Tzorich."

HT says: The question is obviously a very loaded one, and one that could set off a veritable firebomb, but I guess one that could be discussed here as good as anywhere. Almost anywhere; I suppose a Belzer shtiebel would be a better place...
But I can vouch for the שואל, and he really means no harm. He's not in the mix at the moment and wants to learn more about a group very close to his heart. As far as I'm concerned I'd like to see Belz-Machnovke succeed, not because of any animosity I have towards Belz, but because of the "little guy" image they portray as opposed to the big bad Belzers with their Bais Hamikdosh. So let's hear from all you know-it-alls out there!

28 comments:

duved said...

I also want the nice,eidel and elrliche yidden to be matzliach as opposed to the loud,bombastic ,ignorant and power hungry Lubavitch.
So we may be on the same page after all.I was always turned off by people who are sure they are right and are always trying to secretely infiltrate the "other" system to win more "fleish" for their guy

psol said...

Regardless of substantial issues, the Machnovke/Machnivke (I've heard both pronunciations) has by far the best beard.

Anonymous said...

Reb Hirshel
it seems your chosid hasn"t got the faintest idea about Belz,
as a starter,
Machnoker Rebbe is a Straight Belzer Einikel from Reb Yisoscher Dov the first , the same as the Rebbe of Kiryas belz, that is only 1 generation closer then his cousin the Machnovker. The name Machnovke he got from his Uncle that was a Chernobler/Skwerer einikel and died with no kids.So he took the name with Chasidim from the old Belz that were against the Rebbe of Kiryas Belz from the start, led by the Rosh Yeshiva Rav Brander and the multi millionare Englander of London.

duved said...

I am on the side of Machnivkeh in this machloikeh.Not because I dislike Belz:Actually I really respect the Belzer Rebbe.He is a self made man and a really smart individual who thinks out of the box.
He is opinionated and stands by his opinion, not like the empty minded rebbelach with the gebleemteh kaftens.
The Belzer merited to be the only guy the Lubavitcher said a nasty remark about in front of cameras (something about him getting money for the moisdes from the Israeli Goverment and therefore he was for giving back land.Something like that, maybe someone has a link??)
Belz is also a chassides with REAL talmidei chachumim, and their weekly parsha sheet is a materpiece of real high standard learning,chasidishe vertlach ,Toireh from Rishoinem.Compare that to the low level Lubavitch or other pieces of useless paper floating around shil on shabes.

Still,Belz has grown to big for it's own good and needs to stop being babies.Let the Machnivkeh call himself whatever he wants and let the best man win.Competition is good for business and there is no business like rebbishe business!!

chosid echad said...

Also, very curious about circumstances and details about RAR being in Budapest in Milchumeh, my mother was taken to him for a Brucheh on (35?) Dob Utca, no kleinekeit too trivail

shimshon said...

Who cares about this fight?
Why do we as Lubavitchers need to be involved in these stupid fights?

Mottel said...

-Duved: Love to see how people like you always bring the conversation back to us - it makes us power hungry Lubavitchers swell with pride whenever our names are mentioned!

Tzig fan said...

Hey!!!
Tzigalleh,Baachi!!
I think someone just made your day!!!
The Lutvakes are fighting in Ashdod and the Kahaneman faction of Ponovizh (if you are allowed to mention the name on this blog....)have just enforced a court ruling with loads of police and private security kicking out 150 bucherim from the Grodno building!!

Now you can post the pics and the Shlit"a will be nisgaleh!!! YECHI HAMELECH!!Up with Chabad Lubavitch, down with Vaboylnik!
WE WON COLOR WAR!!!
(more hits for your rag-a-blog!!)
You-hoo you hoo!!!!!!
What a treat.
The rebbe is proud

chaim said...

Why are you posting non Lubavitch content? Who cares? Yakeh Belz es Belz

Anonymous said...

bad move asking the readers strait out. best stratagy is to pretend you know the whole story (when u only know a drop) and retz uhn people to fill in the blanks.

בידידות

הקטן מחבורה (חשובה) המפורסם

russian chusid said...

Hershel,

YOu do not want a tsadilk or a Rebbe(neither of them are-both are hamachlif pure b'chamor) to succeed -bring yiras shomaim, dveikus and and avoide-but you want a little guy to succeed-thats where your chasidus takes you???? Same way Boyaner rebbe is big because he is so called "eidel" and does not let people walk with him, and so is Lokstein ok because he had some kesher with Lubavitcher Rebbe?That's real chitzoiniyus, buddy

Anonymous said...

I think the same of machnovka as I do of the fellow who distributes the most tomchei shabbos/maos chitim in crown heights

Anonymous said...

anon 543

shimon shaul deutch is a persona non grata on this blog, he call himself liozma rebbe to boot!

Feivel ben Mishael said...

Actually as it turns out the Ponovezhs didn't have any court papers after all...

just a massive chilul hashem and a whole lot of bitul torah.

own turf said...

Hershel why talk about belz tell us why in today's psak din about the din Torah in crown heights the rebbes name is not mentioned once the person that claimed to lead the world is so irrelevant to his own neighborhood
and imagine the Reshag going to din torah with the rebbe history would have been different

Anonymous said...

Seforim Blog
from R. Marc Shapiro

Let me note at the outset that intellectual history is not part of the story Gurock tells. Other than Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, who is briefly treated, there is no analysis of important Orthodox thinkers such as Eliezer Berkovits, Leo Jung, and Emanuel Rackman, and how their ideas were influenced by their American experience. The only time the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn, is mentioned is when Gurock notes that some Lubavitchers regard him as the Messiah. I think this is an important lacuna as Schneersohn's role as thinker and builder are certainly significant enough for inclusion even in a book not focused on intellectual history. In fact, it was the success of Lubavitch that encouraged the non-hasidic haredim (ultra-Orthodox) to also move into “outreach,” and today they are the major force in drawing newcomers to Orthodoxy.

This is ironic considering that some of the leaders of this world mocked the Lubavitch for doing precisely what the non-hasidic “outreach professionials” are doing today. In fact, it seems that the demographic realities of America have affected their perspective even more than Lubavitch. How else to explain that Aish Hatorah, a supposedly haredi organization, honors intermarried celebrities at its events and prominently features them in its programming and on its website? This is certainly something that R. Aaron Kotler (died 1962), who more than anyone else is the ideological forebear of the non-hasidic American haredim, could never have imagined.

taka....Big Luby Mashpia sent his kinderlach to Belz , eh?

shua said...

Tzig,
To give yourself some credibility you probably want to give some statement about the psak regarding the Beis Din

schneur said...

To properly reply to this querry one needs to do much research and write a major study about Belz in Hungary, after the war etc and all the printed materials would need to be closely examined. Oral interviews would have to be conducted.At first thought, I intended to write something about Belz a subject I have read much about, but wait ...
Am I in the twilight zone, this site was created to dispel false hoods about lubavitch.Instead it has undertaken tasks similiar to the site it was intended to combat except that its targets are groups that are at odds (not in combat with) with Chabad. Why not write a long comment about the follwoing :
1. Did all Chabad people accept the Rayaatz in 1920 ?
2. What exactly was the ruchniusdike state of the Yerushalmi Chabad comunity prior to 1948 ? Exactly how shall I say Chabad were they ? The nature o their hiskashrus?
3. Can anyone write an objective account of the fight or lack of a fight for succession in the period of 1950--1951 ?
4.Did all Russian Anash accept the Rebbe and the New paths after 1951 ? Or perhaps there were those who just "smiled".
5. Were there Chabad people who wanted a new Rebbe in 1994 and if so who were these people and who were the talked of candidates?
6. After 1967 and the arrival of the nachlas har Chabad people were there any differences in outlook between these people and the older Lubavitchers already in Israel ?There are many more fine points about Chabad history since 1920 that need objective examination ,(I am not suggesting ab initio that you talk about these issues , but since you have undertaken a major study of Belz, why not do Lubavitch first. instead of talking about Machnovke and the Belzer in Razfert and Munkatch and the Yaruslaver Rav and his late son etc etc. Let the Belzer start there own circus !
Don't Chazal tell us harotze leshakr yarhik edoso ....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Tzig fan wrote: Hey!!!
Tzigalleh,Baachi!!
I think someone just made your day!!!
The Lutvakes are fighting in Ashdod and the Kahaneman faction of Ponovizh (if you are allowed to mention the name on this blog....)have just enforced a court ruling with loads of police and private security kicking out 150 bucherim from the Grodno building!!

Now you can post the pics and the Shlit"a will be nisgaleh!!! YECHI HAMELECH!!Up with Chabad Lubavitch, down with Vaboylnik!
WE WON COLOR WAR!!!
(more hits for your rag-a-blog!!)
You-hoo you hoo!!!!!!
What a treat.
The rebbe is proud



My friend, you're hurting your own cause, whatever that cause may be. If I don't bring it up why should you? How do you know what's on my mind if I never write about these petty fights?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Schneur

you know me somewhat. We've met and talked. I'm not some rabid hater that you should accuse me of stam opening a can of worms or looking to sling mud on other groups. This was a legitimate question posed by a long time reader here. I have no "horse in this race."

Tzig fan said...

"My friend, you're hurting your own cause, whatever that cause may be. If I don't bring it up why should you? How do you know what's on my mind if I never write about these petty fights?"

Tzigalleh Baachi,
My cause is not your cause! You are right about that.Your nation (cult) is not my nation,Your god (the shlita)is not mine.Your Messiah (the false one) is not mine either............and you always write about your "enemies".

Mazel Tov on tax day!
Now you can freely write all the crappola you want after your boss has sent the check to his son in Brisk

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Most of your questions are documented in chabad there is not much cover up happening in Chabad, obviously it is not in the official biographies which only a lunatic will do, scream with a megaphone all his fallacy, but unfortunately all of Chabad history(I am not talking of the innuendos and half baked truths of Moroch Veraboch Harav Hakodesh Miliozna Shlita,)
it"s a known fact that Rav Landau etc.. was not the great Mekushar of the Rayatz.
Toras emes/Havlin episode is known in chabad too, that Yerushalmim are not chasidim, and their real Rebbe is the Kosel is a famous thing in Chabad too, but not to a guy that claims to be the Chabadnik of our Doir with straight lines to Reb Eizel and Reb Hilel, but no Shimesh Chasidim what so ever, Just pontificates with a magnifying glass (Shepakulen)on every turn Chabad is turning.

snag said...

Marc Shapiro has Habad shorashim, so not surprising that he is advocating for Lubavitch.

yankee said...

Schneur,
I don't get your post. Everything u mention is well-known by most chassidim who "hung around" the past 30-40 yrs. Contrary to all the haters on this blog, Chabad is horrible at coverups, and there's very few inside secrets that aren't out there.
For example your first point. It's no secret that the Rebbe's father not a chossid of the FR. It's also is pretty well known why RYL left rostov to moscow and later to BB. (hint: shidduch issues). I don't think HT needs to start delving into this. About Belz, it's not so well known esp the truth about the Bulgayer Ruv and the circumstances of his petirah @ a relatively young age.
To be fully honest, any discussion of belz has to include admiration for the current Rebbe, whose total yerusha from RAR was a bunch of sonim and he built it up to a massive chassidus and kehilla that is the envy of all charedi groups today.

An Ailemesher said...

So many commentators and so little information on Belz, the topic of this post.

But to continue on Shneur's theme, how about some more information on the kabbalas hanesius of the Raz"a after the petira of the Mahar"ash and his subsequent resignation as documented in non lubavitch sources of that period? Or the rumor that there was a picture of the Maharas"h but it was hidden due to the fact that he was very heavy and did not look bechovedik? Or that the tzeva'a of the tzemach tzedek proclaiming the Mahara"sh as Rebbe was probably forged.

Anonymous said...

From the original Belzer who asked.

Yes, I'm extremely interested in the same type of issues in Lubavitch as well, though Belz is closer to home.

Who is Rav Landau (viz a viz the Rayatz)?

Any details on Tov Shin Yud Yud Aleph are of great interest to me and others?

The FR and R' Levik, what's the deal there?

I know its easier to klop yenem rather than answering a question directly, but I have some hope

schneur said...

Tzig. I am not accsusing you of being a hater , but of losing track of your original mission statement. I am not a Chaim Berlin person nor do I have a more than passing (I like to read about Belz) shaychus to Belz.
As I said I am not suggesting any of the issues I raised be discussed, but if we are to discus hidden issues then we ought to start with Chabad first.
I also disagree with you many if not most Chabad chassidim have very little data about any of the issues I mentioned. Yes some may know this or that but we have very little details. Was Rabbi Landau the only Chasid who rejected the Rayaatz ? I don't know the answer, but I did see in print that some raised the efsharus of making rav Itche De Masmid rebbe ! Much of what I raised is not so impt , as is much of what is raised about Belz . And I think there are better things to discuss.
If not for some wealthy Satmarer (chiefly in the UK and Antwerp)who try to hype the Machanovker as a way of attacking the present Rav, and prvoking the Belzer, the Machnovker would be another Rebbe in BB. But with lots of money pouring in, they are able to publish wonderful books,(Tel Talpios for example) journals and take royal trips , in other words like a major hoif.
I don't believe that the Machanovker himself is behind this and he really is not challenging the Belzer ruv as the Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
"Was Rabbi Landau the only Chasid who rejected the Rayaatz ? "

I don"t think that Rejected is not the right word, he was not Botel Umevital as a chosid, but he was always affiliated with both Rebiem,eventough Rav Landau was never considered the big Oved or Maskil in Lubavich the rebbe Reshab loved him for his rigidness and thats it,his understanding in chasiddus was weak at its best, he was in the right time and the right place at the creation of Benai Berak and he rightfully created himself a name of a role model for a Town Rav with true Yiras Shomaim

"If not for some wealthy Satmarer (chiefly in the UK and Antwerp)who try to hype the Machanovker as a way of attacking the present Rav"
Its not Satmar that provokes, his whole existence with his close to 400 families is turning his cousin the Belzer Rebbe beserk, last year the Belzer chasidim wanted to stage a official protest in Benai Berak in front of his new shul. It was stopped by the local municipality.