Thursday, April 8, 2010

קארלינער צענזור



So over Yom Tov I had some time to look at the newly released sefer on Reb Yisroel Grossman, zt"l, dayan, Rosh Yeshivah, Vechulu, "גדול בישראל" they called it. It's a fascinating window into a world not many knew of; where one man was involved in so many different campaigns and battles for the character of the Holy Land back in the day, as well as being a major meyfitz of Torah and Chassidus for decades. Any Chabadnik worth his salt knows about Reb Yisroel, as well as any yungerman who knows about anything in Eretz Yisroel should know about Reb Yisroel. I learned lots of new things from the book, like the fact that he was an eynikel of MaHaRY"L, the AR's brother, and his father's name Moshe Schneur Zalman was for the Alter Rebbe and Moshe Rabbeinu - him being born on 7 Adar. The family history is rich - rich I tell you, real geshmakke Yiddishe personalities, one by one, from all sides of the spectrum. Litvish, Russian, Galicianers, you name it. If I had the cash I would buy it.

If you know RYG's history you know that he joined the "Alte Karliner" after Reb Yochonon passed away. For those of you in Crown Heights that means that he never accepted Reb Yochonon's eynikel as Rebbe. Some 7 years after RY's passing they crowned Reb MosheMordche Lelover as Rebbe, and "Karlin-Lelov" was born. Most of the "yunge" waited a few years and took Reb Boruch Shochet - his daughter Feigele's eldest son- as Rebbe, despite the culture gap. Reb Yisroel was in his early 30s at the time, so he wasn't technically "old" at that time, but you get the drift. They say that the real rift happened way before, when Di Alte - or their parents - became chassidim of the Karliner, Reb Avrohom Elimelech, HY"D, after the passing of Reb Yisroel, Der Frankfurter, and not of Reb Moshe Stoliner nor of Reb Yochonon, and they never REALLY accepted Reb Yochonon as Rebbe, even after he was the only one left after WW2. "They did because they had no choice," the yunge say, "so they're not really chassidim anyway, so who cares what they think about our Rebbe," they add.


The Current Pinsk-Karliner Rebbe

In any case, when they get to that point in time of Reb Yisroel's life they do some kind of job on history. There was no eynikel. There's no big shul at Avinoam Yellin 11. There are no hundreds and hundreds of Stoliner families. There was only Reb Moshe Mordche Lelover and then there was Reb Aron Rosenfeld of the newly-established Pinsk-Karlin, and now his son. That's right, my friends, History was thrown to the wind here, and nobody but me is raising the issue, IIMSSM. Why they do that when every young bocher'l knows otherwise is beyond me. It seems like in Israel they STILL haven't realized that censorship of that magnitude just doesn't work anymore. Truth be told, the yunge (Stoliner) would do the exact same thing, but I haven't seen - and am not discussing - that book now. What the author has done is that he's one-upped the Stoliners by publishing some real good pictures - some of which were totally unknown, and some of which were erroneously presented until now, like the one of the Yenukah traveling in a wagon, or at least that's what we thought until now. Now it turns out to be his SIL, Reb Avrohom Shapiro of Gwodzisk, with the shver all the way in the back in another wagon altogether.

Why does it fly under the radar, and why do you find your self "could care less" about this revisionism? Quite simply, you have little affinity or dislike towards these groups or groups like them. Lubavitch gets in your hair and forces you to call their bluffs almost as if you're forced to. I understand that fully. And I realize that some of you are annoyed that I shlep Lubavitch into every conversation, as well... So I'll stop here. He does bring a nice story that happened to RYG's shvigger a Litvishe-Yerushalmi woman named Gutfarb, who stopped the Frierdige Rebbe on the streets of Meah Shearim when he visited in 5689 and would not allow him to pass until he promised her that all her descendants would stay true to Hashem's Torah. The Rebbe of course blessed her and all of her 1000+ descendants are יראים ושלמים until today... Oh, and did I mention that he was Rosh Yeshivah in Lubavitch for decades when Reb Boruch Shimon Schneersohn left Tomchei Tmimim Lod to join his shver's - the Tchebiner Rov - new yeshivah in Yerushalayim. There I go again...

30 comments:

Sruli said...

I think his greatness was eclipsed, nebech, by being the father of the Migdal Haemek star, so he is relegated to going down in history as a 'father', like many other greats.

Anonymous said...

Go defend Lubyirivtxch from Harry!

Chabad-Revisited said...

Is there anywhere online that I can buy (or view) this Sefer ?

NONMOUSE said...

THAT THEY LEFT OUT SOCHAY FROM THE BOOK, WHAT THE BIG DEAL? DO ANY BOOKS ON SHLITA DISCUSS THAT HE SPENT A YEAR CUTTING DOWN GURARI TO SIZE BEFORE HE TOOK OVERR THE SHOW?
ITS WRITTEN FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE. R YOCHANAN DIED THEY WENT TO R MOSHEMORDCHE AND THEN TO R AHRON HAKOHEN...ETC

Who said...

because you are so addicted to the truth

the point of the historical omission was brought up in one of the hydepark forums before you

Anonymous said...

Tzig,

the reason Rebbetzin Nechama Dina didn't want the Rebbe MM"S but preferred her other son in law is because that was the will of teh Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbetzin would not have acted that way unless that was her husbands decision. Those around Crown Height pre 1970 will tell you.

Nebach there is so much the younger generation does not know and the 'elterer chassidim' will never tell because it will burst the buble built since then.

The Rebbe MM"S despite being an unbelivable tzadik and perhaps saviour of yiddishkeit in our time, openly and repeatedly refused to follow his shver's horaor and forged his own path...

What Shaul Shimon Deutsch did a horrible job of, was try to undercover (but not tell) the truth but he was terribly underqualified, underesourced and fighting unbelievable opposition.

If the could have banned his book there would have been another "Hey Teves" when they stopped him telling about the rewritting of the history of Chabad.

I can never figure out with so much to be proud of - and there is nothing about the Rebbes life to be embarrased of - why keep 'improving the story' as you go along....

Tzig reader said...

"The Rebbe MM"S despite being an unbelivable tzadik and perhaps saviour of yiddishkeit in our time,"


Saviour of Yiddishkait???
Tell me you are joking, please.
Yiddishkait was around before him, before the Baal Hatanya even before the Besh"t.
Chabad were mekarev some non religious Jews to keeping mitzvos.They made some already from Jews into Chabadskers, which usually means that they are on a much lower madreiga today than they would have been had they stayed normal.(Many of their "mekiruvim" were and are still mentally unstable like this blogger, so though they did a chesed even though it was self serving by being mekarev them, this did not "save' yiddishkait..)
BUT, ve'aiyd vehu hoi'iker, Lubavitch has been turned into a cult with hashkufehs that are borderline kefireh, that is not "saving" Yiddishkait, that is bringing it down

Shimon said...

If you are calling for the truth to be told, remember not to try and cover up truths about Chabad that you don't feel comfortable about and refuse to address.Otherwise you risk being called a two faced liar and hypocrite.
I"m not sure you want to open up the pandoras box with all these uncomfortable truths,whether it's back in history or the current shennanigans of the Meshichist/Telsner groups or the Boreinu nuts

מענדל said...

הירשעלע
זיין מאמע מרת פראדל איז געווען א משך זמן אין יחידות ביים רבי'ן נשיא דורינו.
להעיר אז זיין זון ר' יצחק דוד און ר' יצחק דוד גראנער ע"ה פון אויסטראליע זיינען א נאמען נאך דעם זעלבן זיידע.
מענדל

Kalman said...

Mendeleh,
Et tu on the "Nosi-Daireynu-even-though-it's 16- years- since -gimmeltammuz" bandwagon?
You can't make the point without it?
Ah rachmonus auf dir

Andrew said...

Maryles is an untouchable on this open minded blog?
I guess so

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

No, Andrew. we discuss Harry here every so often. But as you can see that was not the topic of this thread, so we'll ignore your irrelevant comment.

OK?

nonmmouse said...

the rebbe refered to the fr as nosi doreinu hk"m in the year following his passing

Andrew said...

You always seem to drag Lubavitch into any conversation as you did in this post, yet a small mention of a discussion in another blog about Lubavitchs messianism is "verboten"?
Besides, it is actually about the theme of your post, the censorship by frummies of things they politically or otherwise don't want to be known or discussed.You, supposedly "don't like it".I guess that only applies to non Lubavitchers,eh?

Off course if you ever chose to actually discuss the Messianic issue in Chabad and your honest opinion about the sad situation, there would be no reason to even mention it here.
But again this blog is a propaganda machine not a "discussion blog"

Chabad-Revisited said...

Wow! how does so much hatred arise from such an innocent post?
This not a discussion that a wish to dignify with a comment, however, to see the Rebbe attacked so vehemently is too much for me to bear.
No one denies that certain foreign elements, have high-jacked the name of Chabad and dragged it through the mud of extreme mishichism. However, to blame these terrible events on the Rebbe Zatz"l, or to suggest that the Rebbe forged a "new" path in disregard of his revered father-in-law's directives is as far from the documented truth as could possibly be.
There has been much speculation as to the relationship between the Rebbe and the Rashag. I intend to post a letter penned by the Rashag himself to the Rebbe, which should dispel any notions one may entertain of discord or jealousy. It is clear from this letter that(by the time of writting al-kol-ponim) the Rashag fully accepted his brother-in-law as Rebbe.
All of the out-reach programs that the Rebbe encouraged, where started by the Friedike Rebbe, and from the times of the Baal-Shem-Tov Chassidim have always been heavily involved in "saving" Yidishkiet and Yidden from whatever perils may threaten.
Indeed this is the very purpose of Chassidus, not to innovate and, G-d forbid, create a new religion, but too guard and fortify the old Yidishkeit from the new perils - whether personal or communal, spiritual or physical - that modernity presents.

non mouse said...

There has been much speculation as to the relationship between the Rebbe and the Rashag. I intend to post a letter penned by the Rashag himself to the Rebbe, which should dispel any notions one may entertain of discord or jealousy. It is clear from this letter that(by the time of writting al-kol-ponim) the Rashag fully accepted his brother-in-law as Rebbe.

shkoyach!

the rashag was a real chosid, he smelled the coffee and held onto whatever he could after he got pushed out of the nesius running...
did you know that shalosh seudos was aboloshed in the yaer after the fr died because the rebbe wouldnt show up for the rashags maamer as the rashag would attend his and that was a part of how he was put out to pasture. the rebbistive was supposewd to be split..

Anonymous said...

revisited, dont you know abc....

nonmouse said...

http://pirsumrishon.blogspot.com/2008/12/rashags-19-kislev-michtav-kloli.html

read this letter and examine the stationary

rashag chasid said...

http://pirsumrishon.blogspot.com/2008/02/chassidims-letter-to-nd-5711.html

azus dkidusha?

mkistamme

Anonymous said...

she did that for many Rebbes and got all the brochos for her kids from ever she could, no?

Boruch said...

May I ask people like non-mouse to stop spewing sourceless hearsay, which at best is comprised of distorted half truths.
There are certain people who repeat the same lies again and again until people begin to take those lies for truth and repeat them as though they are documented facts. This is a great way to discredit someone without basis, its cost free and it works!
Did anyone bother, for example to read the letter from Chassidim to the Rebitzin Nechomoh Dinah (linked to above)? Well , I did, and I would like to make a couple of points:
1) The strongest impression that comes over from this letter, is the strength and unity with which all the Chassidim appointed the Ramash as Rebbe and stood up for his honor. 2) The implication in the letter is that the Rebbitzein herself knew very well and even acknowledged, that the Ramash was more fit to serve as Rebbe then the Ramash. 3) The issue seems to be that the Rebbitzen nevertheless wanted the Rashag to have SOLE charge of the Yeshivos (which the Friedike Rebbe appointed him too, [he appointed the Ramash to the outreach Moisdes]) and the Chassidim said that SOLE charge independent of the accepted Rebbe was not an option and had never been an option in Lubavitch. Such a situation would comprise an implicit protest against the Rebbe's leadership (as would a separate minyan kriah), which even the Rebbitzen must admit can not be tolarated.
Furthermore, it should be pointed out that although the Rashag did at one time want to be Rebbe (as hinted in the letter to his detriment) already in the early years of the Ramash's leadership and throughout all the years including the legal fight against his own son, the Rashag (to his credit) acknowledged his brother-in-law as Rebbe and deferred to his as a Rebbe to a Chossid.

Anonymous said...

in my first post i wrote thaty the rashag was pragmatic and bowed when he realized he lost the fight to be rebbe...

Anonymous said...

I once saw the Rebbe rise slightly from his seat at the farbreingin when Rashag came in late.

Anonymous said...

I'm waiting to see a detailed write up of the events from the fr passing until a year later wher ramash was coronated.
hard cold facts.
from starting off as a shared thrown to being what it was.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anonymous

try and get Reb Yoel's letters home from that period.

snagville said...

Tzig,

That was the 1st time you rejected a comment of mine. I guess I now know where the line (or the joke hit home a little bit).

Anonymous said...

hirshel, I have no idea how to get r yoels letters, but I'm sure you do. do us all a service and let's have a real presentation of what went on.

thanks

Anonymous said...

I am sorry to bring this up but Reb Yoel's letters are not proof of anything. As mufga meolam haze as he is, he knew how to fight dirty when the Rebbe needed him to.

I live in Australia and have gone to hear Reb Mendel Vechter farbreng. Although a fiery chosid who goes into gan eden every time he learns a maamar of the Rebbe, he has never fit in Chabad and admitted at the yud alef nisan farbrengun that even after moving to Boro Park, he never intended to become Lubavitch. It was only that after what he did, no kreis felt they could trust him anymore.

When he walked his children down the chupa and thinks of his heiliger bobes and zeides, I wonder if he wishes it could be different. That instead of Reb Yoel being there, his parents could have been there to share in the simches of their grand-children. After suffering one Holacaust, Reb Yoel caused them to suffer a second.....

I wondered if when his mother passed away, did Reb Yoel ask mechila of the nifteres for the agmas nefesh he caused the family....

I know the Reb Yoel felt he was doing what was right, and maybe he didn't understand the role he was playing in Chabad vs Satmar politics which many Crown Heights spectators watched with glee.

Even the Rebbe, when Reb Mendel expressed that he was scared for his life (before he was shechted) told him that he was not allowed to worry......Unfortunately he never stopped paying the price that the Rebbe felt had to be paid against Satmar. He is clearly a broken man and only a shell of the man known in his youth in Williamsburg....

Is there a lengthy account of the Rebbe's role and Reb Yoel's role and how Reb Mendel was viewed in Chabad then (A Satmar rosh yeshivah turning up to sichos - wasn't he viewed as a spy or something ???). Can anyone reproduce Reb Mendel Pinson's account of that time ???

Has Reb Yoel ever explained why he was permitted to lie to Reb Vechter who told him, he only wanted to learn to the Rashab ?

Unfortunately Reb Yoel was probably being played by the power men who knew of his eidelkeit and inability to comprehend the ramifications of his actions.....

Anonymous said...

The main question why did the rebbe ship off vechter to goulus in kiryas malachi why not have vechter in bnei brak jerusalyim what about Crown Heights

by the way do vechters children dress like vechter or like lubavich

Anonymous said...

if he woulda been a successful meshumad he coulda become a roshiva like in LA....