Tuesday, June 8, 2010

Lonely Men in Jaffa (Part 2)



I'm sorry about the last (lonely men in Jaffa) post; for the lack of clarity, for the jumping from one topic to the next. I'll try and make good here.


There are two or three issues that we can discuss here.

1) Why the Kanoyim are the only ones fighting grave excavations in Israel - and basically the world. [You see them in Europe and elsewhere, but they do act differently there. No fighting with the cops, no jumping into graves. Mostly diplomatic channels. They don't get covered in dirt like they do in Israel...] Is it just because it's in their veins, so they don't stop, or do they really believe? It's become a sort of "rite of passage" for some. You had the Rebbe of Khal Chassidei Yerushalayim (a Karliner offshoot) arrested, as well as the Satmar Rebbe's great grandson. Why those two decided to show up is kinda weird, unless they had never been in the slammer before, and needed it on their respective resumes. It's as if you're not one of the true Jews if you've never sat in prison after being arrested by the Zionist police... I guess we all have our issues; some Lubavitchers had their day during the Gush Katif fiasco several years ago, but they were very few and far between. There too some felt that to get arrested for that cause was a feather in their hat. But they chose to ignore that this isn't and wasn't the Rebbe's way, not when it came to graves and not when it came to expelling Jews from their homes.

2) why the Agudah and Degel no longer consider it a priority when they officially did consider it important a while back. [Or have only their methods of protest changed?] Is it the fact that it happens too often now? Is it because they can't afford to burn their bridges with the Israeli Gov't? Or is it not really an issue and never was, meaning that A"P din you were always allowed to excavate l'tovas progress? [In truth that's more of a dati leUmi answer to why it's ok to excavate, although they were quite upset that it happened after the Gush Katif expulsion, and were upset that the kanoyim had no problem with the Gov't removing tens of graves - vaday yidden.] Some of them would tell you that it's because they have enough of a rapport with the Government now that they can talk to authorities now. No need to burn garbage and demonstrate. In any case "Chitutei Shichvei" is no longer an issue with those in the mainstream in Israel and the Diaspora. There's a lot more talk about the Slonimers in Emanuel and the terrible decision of the BaGaTZ. The frum ones now will tell you that the bones are not of Jews, or that they can be moved to build the hospital ER in Ashkelon, or that the Satmars are doing this just to flex their political muscles.

3) Then there's Lubavitch, everybody's favorite whipping boy. "Lubavitch never demonstrated with us, they never cooperated, they never cared about any of the issues that were of concern to frum Jews in Israel, and by extension, the world." It would seem to this objective observer that Lubavitch is simply ahead of their time, as far as the rest of world Jewry is concerned. We always did what they're doing now! Most disputes now are resolved by a simple sit down, where the police and/or Government officials sit down with the Rabbonim and try to please all parties involved. People are disgusted by the demonstrators and that they give all of them a bad name. That's as far as demonstrating and kol korehs go. We all know how the Rebbe worked tirelessly to build Yiddishkeit all over the world, so to say that he didn't care is simply not practical. You can say that about people that opened their own little shuls on Clymer and Wilson and Hooper and Penn, and made nice money from it over the years and married off their kids from it, but you cannot say that about the Rebbe, unless you're a total buffoon, which many of you are, if I may say so myself. And to point to his basically worthless signature on a KK nobody saw and use THAT as proof that he worked l'maan haKlal is laughable.

What I also don't get is why they would want Lubavitch on board at the same time that Lubavitch was MiChutz LaMachneh... Would they have the Rebbe become big in their circles, avade nisht. There would be no room for him. Others like the Skverrer Rebbe were also not into signing and screaming. But I guess his image was protected by the fact that he was into Hisbadlus, so they let him pass. He also was not a threat to them and their positions of power. Back in the 50's, when they needed the Rebbe to support their battles they used him, but then he was discarded like a used kleenex. We cannot turn back the clock, but we sure can defend our positions. We can also maybe, efsher question what - if anything - the violent demonstrations did other then alienate millions of secular Israelis that felt that the Charedim are a fifth column in their country and no nothing but get in the way.

I know I had more to say about the subject, but being that it's been 2 weeks since I started this thread ideas and opinions get lost along the way. I apologize for making y'all wait so long for part II.

23 comments:

2 Ikrim said...

if satmers are loi mihem vlo mehamanom
and Zionists are the authentic salvation for achris hayumim why do you look back? you joined the progressive visionaries that don't wait for meshiach and don't anticipate the death to rise so you differ on 2 Ikrim of the Jewish ani mamins , so get over it and fartig

2 Ikrim ? said...

If you have seen the picture of Rubashkin entering the court house with a picture of the rebbe in his hands this shows that they are plain idol worshipers so they differ with the Jews on more then 2 Ikrim

Anonymous said...

what is the Issur of seeing the Rebbes holy Tzurah in the worst of times? Reb sholem Mordechai is in need of a lot Bitochan and Emuna, and as we all know the Rebbe was the pillar of emuna in our generation, each and every day he worked tirelessly to apply it in our hearths, Was Yossefs seeing the portrait of his father by the Nisoyan of his life avoda zorah chas vesholem? Yakov avinu the pillar of Kedusha saved him in the hardest time. Please don't teach nobody emuna vedies.

Anonymous said...

loi saasa lachuu pasal vchol teminu
some how there is a difference from fantasizing in your mind and making use of a man MADE picture

Anon3 said...

"loi saasa lachuu pasal vchol teminu
some how there is a difference from fantasizing in your mind and making use of a man MADE picture"
Are you guys nuts? Since when is "Eienecho roois es pnei moirecho" avoideh zorah C"V? Since when is emunas tzadikim considered A"Z? Are you guys writing some new Shulchon Oirech?
Go home and take the pictures of the Tzadikim and your Rabeiem that you have hanging on the walls of your homes and throw them in the garbage.Take your children's collection of gedolim cards and tear them into shreds.How low can you rotzers go? you've already hit the bottom.

Anonymous said...

I have the deepest regard for the Rebbe ZT"L. However, the extent to which the Rebbe's picture is used is beyond extremes. Here are some examples:

A photo is typically placed under the pillow holding the baby at a bris, making it as if the rebbe is sandek.

The minhag Chabad is to not have any decorations in the Sukkah - except for a posul esrog and the Rebbe's picture.

The photo is typically used as a segula, as it appears to have been with SMR in court.

Every home and business has the Rebbe's picture. Why so many?

There are some shuls that have a portrait of the Rebbe prominently displayed. Halacha is that one may not daven in front of a picture, since it appears that one is bowing to it or praying to it. I once found a portrait in front of the shul, and I moved it to the side to follow halacha. Several Chabadniks were enraged. Why?

I have no problem with the Rebbe ZT"L. But you'll never get me to worship a photo.

schneur said...

I have not followed the story very closely. BUt I thought Orthodox Jews follow Halacha, why not ask rav Elyoshev what he thinks, do the same with Rabbi Vozner, Rav Ovadya Yosef, R. Moshe Leib Landau,Rabbi Stainman, Rabbi Lipkowitz, Rabbi ZN Goldberg, and follow their psak. If the govt is faced with a psak from these people chances area reasonable solution can be presented. But the groups demonstarting are not interested in psak and neithr is the Israeli govt. .The Brisker rav said that if the anti govt demonstartors are wilder in Jslm than they are lets say in Moscow or London than they are modeh in Zionism as they know their fellow Jews will not harm them or their jail sentence will have better learning than in their yeshivas ...

schneur said...

The picture of the Rebbe.
I don't think it belongs in a shul , but otherwise if the picture can turn Jews on to Judaism why not and if it can be a force to see the panim of a zaddik, why not ?
Jews in Lita were very restrained about pictures, but even so they had pictures of men like the GRA, Sir Moses Montefiore, NETZIV on their walls. The Chofetz Chaim had 3 pictures in his drawer(reported by rav Shmuel pliskin) among them rav Nochume of grodna and the Oshmener Zaddik RAv Mordchele.
In the US Hebrew Pub Co sold photos of the Rav hakolle suitable for framing. Sefardim have always included pictures of mechabrim in their seforim. And even some ashkenazim in days of yore did that I havea early 19th cen sefer from the rebbe Rav Ronoson with his picture in the front.
Yes we need to make sure that we are not mevaze the tsura of a rav , and that we stay within halacha , but the tsura of a zaddik is another aid in yiras shomayim .

Anon3 said...

"I have no problem with the Rebbe ZT"L. But you'll never get me to worship a photo".

Lets get this straight.No sane,main stream Lubavitcher "worships" a picture of the Rebbe.
This whole picture bit is not only prevelent in Lubavitch.You go into most frum homes nowdays and you will find giant sized pictures of Roshei Yeshivos,Rabeim,and gedolim.
To tell the truth I would rather have my children, even in the formitive years of infancy, see pictures of tzadikim and gedolim at every posibble opportunity,then the shmutz found on videos, pictures of pritzus on TV and so called "role models" which continues to pervade our modern day environment and we and more specfically our children are bombarded with this shmutz twenty four hours a day.(run on sentence).
We live in a society where extreme measures are required to prevent us and our children from the decadence that permeates the very air we breathe.
Perhaps in the "alter heim" when there was no internet,TV,newspapers etc. and to a large degree our zeides and bubbes lived in the sheltered life of the shtetl there was no need for pictures and other measures.There was a clear deleniation beetween us and "them".
Now however extreme times need extreme measures even though they may seem over the top.

























es and other measures.There was a clear deleniation beetween us and "them".
Now however Extreme times need extreme measures.

Anonymous said...

The first possek that claimed to have a problem with Photos, was Reb Yonassan Eibshutz, He only said it in a derosha,(Yaruth Devash)but most poskim and the majority of Charadie Jewry had pohotos of their families for generations, their are some Rebbes that abstained from photos for mystical reasons. Its intersting to note that in Eibhitz/Emden polemic books they write that Talmidie Reb Yonesen had photos of their Rebbe in their pockets.

Anonymous said...

the way Lubabs obsess over the photo is unprecedented in Judaism, unlhealthy and pathetic. If you want a picture of a tzadik, get one of Reb Nuchmkeh or the Chafetz Chaim.

Anon3 said...

"the way Lubabs obsess over the photo is unprecedented in Judaism, unlhealthy and pathetic. If you want a picture of a tzadik, get one of Reb Nuchmkeh or the Chafetz Chaim."
Says who? You? Well, for one Photography was not invented until the mid nineteenth century so your statement about photos of the Rebbe or any other Tzadik being "unprecedented in Judaisim" is kind of ridiculas.The "Diefication" of roshei hayishivos in contempery times is definitely "unprecedented in Jewish history".The term "Das Torah" is also "unprecedented in Jewish history" and is a recent phenomenon except for the name of a sefer.The picture of the Chofetz Chaim is not authentic.When someone approached the Chofetz Chaim with the request to photograph him,he pointed out the town shochet and said "er kooked ois ve an erleche Yis.Nemt foon em".There are many recent phenomenon that are going in the frum world today that are dangerous and "unprecedented in Jewish history".Need I say more?

Anonymous said...

http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=gallery&id=302&lang=hebrew

Anonymous said...

Just tell us one thing the Rebbe did or tried to do for any of the causes you mentioned!

Anonymous said...

Anon3

The photo obsession is an expression of an obsession over one particular person; the degree of that obsession (one of its manifestatio is the photo thing) is just part of a larger picture.

Anonymous said...

Lubavitchism, facism
dictatorship, world leadership
Rebbeism, mysticism
kool-aids, yechi berrets

surpression of self-expression
mind made dumb by the herd syndrome
too much bittul of self belittle
no gall behind the eighth ball (vedal)

got a pic on the tick-tick
got it stashed on my dash
hooka in the succah
benedictine, liver squeeky-cleen

Anonymous said...

http://matzav.com/audio-dr-roberts-rabbi-aaron-kotler-is-an-impressive-talent

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"Every home and business has the Rebbe's picture. Why so many?"
In my Yidishkiet according to chazal,Judaism is extremely centered around a Rebbe, to pasken a simple halacha in the vicinity of your Rebbe as long he is alive, the penalty is fatal,The Rebbe has to be visited on every Holiday and Rosh Chodesh etc... The Gemorah said that it is dangerous to live close to your Rebbe since its impossible to satisfy the halachic demands of Kvoid Raibo,
Our ignorant brothers love to jump with accusation of Ikrim, Idol worshipping, on issues that their Fargerbte or Goish Kop cant grasp

leo said...

Anonymous 11:32 AM

Not one of your points is relevant to the discussion. You could have simply said there are such-and-such Simans in Shulchan Aruch regarding Hilchot K'vod Rav. But there's no mention of pics there :(

Anonymous said...

Leo
is your problem that pictures are being used? or chasidim are too much Rebbe Centered?

leo said...

Anon 8:13
not sure about those issues; my problem here was that Anon 11:32 quoted Halacha as if the pic thing was sourced there at all.

This is common practice among Amei Aretz (sorry) and falsifiers of Torah (sorry again) - dragging sources from all over to look good, when in fact none are related to matter at hand.

Anonymous said...

Leo,
your self esteem is boruch hashem healthy,but accusing people of Amaretzies is not a way to explain yourself

leo said...

anon 547 (and PLEASE give urselves some id, its difficult to converse with so many anons)
i know what i'm talking about. and, no, i won't explain myself (don't forget my self esteem) at least not until the AH that quoted halacha explains what that all has got to do with pics