You doubted - some of you, anyway - where the Buhusher Rebbe's loyalty lay. Here's a little something to help you make up your mind. The letter is of a personal nature, so I cut it in half for obvious reasons. On the bottom we have the current Rebbe with his zeide. He was obviously enthralled by his esteemed grandfather, as it should be. Have a wonderful Shabbos.
UPDATE 7/11/10 - 2:52pm:
Here - in the top right corner - we have the right and left side of the letter, so that you get the full effect of the stationery...
66 comments:
I think i had explained myself pretty clear in my greenhorn English (may be i should do it in Hungerian) - his association with mizrachi was because of the people that he dealt with and had to be mekarev.
Én di nem értem. Mondják, hogy magyar, kérem.
Russian Chossid
I am noting getting if Zionisim Avoda Zora then how can u join it for kiruv reason? who told u that this was the reason ? the einikel the Rebbe? is their some private negative document condemming the Mizrochi?
why isn't the einikel trying to be mekarev the same kind of yiden his ziede tried to be mekarev? did they all die out? or are they and their families fullfledge frum by now?
Oh so its ok for chabad to be zionist? They r dealing with people who they are being mekarev maybe they can do the same??
Riboino shel oylum!!
I am noting getting if Zionisim Avoda Zora then how can u join it for kiruv reason?
He did not join it-he just showed undestanding of his Roaminisher guys needs.
"who told u that this was the reason ?"
His right hand people who were extreamly close to him.
"why isn't the einikel trying to be mekarev the same kind of yiden his ziede tried to be mekarev?"
They do not exist anymore:) His einikel is not into kiruv-everybody has their line. He got some other issues to take care of. I am not his chusid, so i do not really care. I am just saying that he has a right to his derech.
Russian Chosid
"His right hand people who were extremely close to him."
I am using my rights to disbelief, its all retroactively said, when the trend is different.
Russian Chusssid,
come on - do you know the vstory when the buhusher rebbe was in Williamsburg and then one week later in montreal speaking in satmar?
לא חרבה ירושלים אלא בשביל שביזו בה תלמידי חכמים (שבת קיט:
Russian Chusid,
I wish you would not make up bubbeh mayses.
The Buhosher, like many other rebbes and rabbunim (in my opinion including the Lubavitcher)were very close with the idea of a Medineh.People who suffered so much felt very happy that at long last Jews had a homeland, an army and could stand up for themselves.
Unfortunately the Zionists were not so happy with frum Jews, especially Ultra Orthodox and eventually many of the rabbunem and their descendants steared back to the Agudah style ,pareveh viewpoint.
Please don't rewrite history.
Orosz szekta követője.
Kérjük, ne beszéljen a végbélnyílás
Lubavitcher was happy with the medina?????
That's why he never called it by the name and said (same thing what Darned Rov said) that medina was doiche the geile??? Learn you facts before you form your opinion .
Bohusher was not a kanoi, but mizrochi he was not either - no matter what stationary he used. Why do not to say that he joined the folk dancing ????
The rayos you Tsig bring are mamesh moiredik.
I think that today's Bohusher's kanoes shows that he is not a copy cat, and has a mind of his own.(not like some other russki Rebbes)
The Rebbe did an unparalleled job of inventing and ingeneously creative kiruv for klal yisrael, but for his own chassidim specifically, I am not so sure....
Not so sure why R' Gurary would not have been a better Rebbe and leave R'MMS z'yu to heading hafotze, merkos and all the other things he was involved in.....to build and give a lev chadash to post was jewry...he could still do all that he did...
My argument is, if the R' MMS z'yu was only carrying out his shver's orders and wishes (as Chabad always claim he never deviated from the derech of past kanoishe Rebbes) then surely R' Gurary would have given him free rein and encouraged his work.....
Most of us are not convinced that is what the ziknei hachassidim wanted....more that is what the youth wanted and they won the battle...
The Buhusher Rebbe is doing what his grandfather wanted, and I think he knows better than us what that was.
"Lubavitcher was happy with the medina?????"
In one word?
Yes!!!
In more than one word?
Very happy, very involved.This is also the root of the disagreement with Satmar, who saw the Medinah as Satans creation and the Lubavitcher who saw it very much as a Heavenly miracle.In fact he used the example of the Russian Jews coming to Israel en masse in the late 80's and early 90"s as a kibbut goluyos.
So despite some Lubavitchers double speak ala "the Lubavitcher was the greatest Anti-Zionist" and other nonsense, these are the facts.
Lubavitchers are the most right wing of the frummeh, have the highest percentage of soldiers in the army, and are heavily involved with the Religous Settler movement, who are the biggest Zionists of all!!
A few Lubavitchers like Tuvia Blau, can scream fin haynt biz morgen how against Zionism Chabad is, but anybody with a basic grasp of facts, someone who has ever visited Eretz Yisroel sees how cleat it is that Lubavitch are the biggest Zionists out there.
And truth be told, most frum Jews, in their heart of hearts are happy that we have a Medineh of our own, a Jewish army that can, al pi derech hateva, look after itself and defend Jews worldwide.Had we had a Medineh during Hitler, most Jews would have been saved!Would have had a place to escape, an army to join, a gun to carry!!
Satmar, and only the heiseh, shlechteh ones are those busy with yo medineh, nisht medineh.Most of the Satmarer are also happy, in their hearts at least, that we have a medineh.
Btw, never has olom hayeshivos and chatzeiros hachasidim thrived like today.Most of it through Israeli Goverment support!
Tzig,
What is the spelling mistake you made on the headline of the post:
Ahavas yisroel ve'artzeho???
Should be "ve'artzo"
Also what kind of tzidkus are you praving trying not to write the word in full???
Shlomo ,
Just one question and answer it strait. Are you a BT?
Because any Gezha talks completly diff. from you.
Did you ever spoke to r'Yoel Kahan or r'Yisroel Friedman about it? I do not think you need to- you understand the Rebbes rutson better them them.
Ich hob an andere sort kashe: Farvos shtait gimmel Iyar, s'darf tzu shtain Heh Iyar?
Lchuved the yurtzait, how about some stories about Chabad and Bovov - especially the Crown Heights years.....
R'Yisroel Friedman,btw, is a gevorener.No, I"m not a bt.
Russian Chusid,
"hamaseh hu hoikor" Does not matter what the "hashkofoniks" say, it's what "amo d'bar" do, and amo d'bar is very Zionistically inclined.
Tuvya can shrai fin haynt biz morgan, though...
Yo zionist - nisht zionist. Whoever heard of a rebbe sending a letter depicting a dancing girl?
Ele may?
The rebbe had no idea what that paper was, He didn't notice the 'zionism' and neither the dancer
How does this prove that he was a Zionist? This is just a decorated Israeli Postal Aerogram with (propaganda?) pictures printed on the side, and the Bohusher used his personal stamp in the return address.
Tzig, this is not evidence.
xyz,
Way to go, bro!!! Like der Heiliger Husiatiner use to sit with a news paper.:)
One smart guy around here with some understanding of chasidus and tsadikim.
Shlomo,
I know about reb Isruel Friedman, but he for sure is not a BT, AND HAS GOOD HAVONE OF CHASIDUS. He is a Rizhiner chusid.
Hamaise-all of your mantioned things has to do with security of Iden, and not with hasve sholom goires der medina.
In one of his books Yitzhak Alfasi has a long list of Hasidic rebbes who supported the Mizrachi in Poland, Russia the US and Israel. This despite the opinions expressed contrary by the greatest zaddik of all time in Orsheva, Krole and satmar...I guess Litvakes have more integrity they do not claim that rav Reines or rav Herzog or the Chofetz Chaim's son rav leib Poupko were Mizrachi in order to be mekraev the hamon. the hamon in Lita were Mizrachi and many rabbonim were. The hamon in Moldavia and Bessrabia were lovers of Zion and so were most rebbes. Yet some were not as rav Zirelson the Vishnitzer rebbes(Bukowina), and even some of the ruzhiner rebbes. I guess they were not into Kiruv...
Shlomo 7:35pm
You may be right, but can it never be loshen nekeivoh?
Shneur, also correct.I am not into kiruv either....
Just a shor memra from Avir Yakov Sdigerer:
"Oib rov tates kinder (sadigerer ingelach) in Moldove und Romania geven in mizruchi, s kimt nisht for a tate's a kind (r. Slomo Chaim Sadigerer) zei tsi bahiten?"
Why are you conflating Zionism (or Zionistic tendancies) with lack of protest? Is it because of the silence of the Mizrahi rabbis during the campaigns the Torah world made against violations of religious freedoms? Is that the reason you associate Zionism with tacit approval of the sins of the state? לשיטתך there is no valid support of the notion of Zionism. No?
Since a large percentage of your loyal readership never heard of Rabbi Amital, and defintely are unaware of his official Hebrew name, why don't you post it (or link to it) so people can say tefilot on his behalf?
I understand that RDAL made a public statement regarding the citing of psalms. Those who might disagree with R. Amital on ideological grounds, should still pray for his recovery. We should follow in the footsteps of R. Shach who prayed on behalf of the recovery of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זי''א.
You should use your power to influence others in a positive matter; instead of merely educating the newcommers to instances of Haredi revisionism.
Respectfully,
YUK
Shneur,
By the way i would never say that Oholey Yakov or Druhbitcher were not mizruchi- THEY WERE. Just the Bohusher was not, according to the facts I know.
Ez az udvariatlan, ellentétes a magyar amikor más tagjai a beszélgetés nem beszélni sem érti a nyelvet.
YUK,
Unfortunately, Rabbi Amital (Klein) was nifter a few days ago
R Efraim Waxman at tonights asifa for Rubashkin in lakewood (which was btw the biggest gathering lkwd has ever seen )said "its no secret that lakwd has very sharp disagreements with chabad very sharfe hisnagdus but this asifa goes to show that theres chilukei deios not chilukei levovos" Tzig wonder what you think of the comment?
Olamo shel Abba describes among other things several Chassidic admorim living in Bucharest and when you read those chapters and their way of life , being a Mizrachi pales in comparison to what Rav Muller indicts them for.
Even in lubavitch-Chabad there were more than a few active Zionist rabbonim like rabbis SY Zevin, Nissan Telushkin, Yehuda Ellinson, Don Yihya,Kuperstock of Gluboke (Haifa) and others, I don't know of or forgot.Being a Mizrachi did not prevent the Lubavitcher rebbe from displaying kavod to Rabbis Zevin and Telushkin did it ?
Giving kuvod does not mean thet he agread with them in shitah. Meshilom Roth was a Chortkover chusid, and mizrochi too, even though his Rebbe vas loichem mizrochi.
Shneur,
By the way,is olomo shel abba kosher l'eidus?
Can you still buy Olamo shel Abba? Where
Russian Chusid,
Chosed bekesharim ? - the author served as a Rav in a well known Hungarain town as a Orthodox community rav.He came from a multi generational Hungarian rabbinic family. The book exhibits a general familiarity with the rabbinic civilization in greater Hungary and Rumania.
Who should we trust Menachem Friedman or David Assaf ?
Perhaps we should question if the Anshe kneseth hagedolah are reliable or is Rav Yehuda hanasi reliable too ? Ein ledavar sof.
I do not know if its available, but its well worhth reading. Its on my short list of 25 books every Orhtodox Jew interested in sichoth chulin of T.CH must read. Perhasp our good friend R. Chaim Rosenberg has placed it on hebrewbooks.org
No one has written seriously on the state of Chasidus in Moldavia and Bessarabia in the first half of the 20th century.
You had some well known rebbes there like the Stefaneshtisher rebbe., Bhusher, Spikover etc, and even some famous rabbonim like Rav Zirelson a Ish Chabad.
But except for the rabbis and klei kodesh many of the so called chasidm were not religious , and many of them did not observe Shabbes.
I know what Russian Chusid may be saying that the Bhusher himself was influenced by the seviva his followers created and to support the Aguda would not have been realisitic. Still I am sure he was a real erliche yid who had principles. A little book describing his final trip to Russia and Rumania is a wonderful uncensored essay that gives one an insight into his genuine Chassidic personality.
Where can one obtain על הגאולה ועל התורה?
Schnuer!
The Rebbe was more Zionistic then any one in Misrachi, as far permitting and promoting and advocating for the Jewish state that negates the concept that Gules forbids a Jewish sovereignty before the appearance of a Goel,
Basically naked Zionism had no need for Gules, Geula or a Goel, but some Misrachi rabbanim in order to attract religious Jews to Zionism had implied that the Zionist state is the beginning of the Geula without any reference to any a Goel,
The lack of the Goel component associated with the Zionist Geula was in conflict with the Rebbes steady implication that HE is The Goel, and not just for this tiny state but to the whole world,
Ironically and luckily the Zionist government is doing the ultimate kiruv by financing chabad institutions that promote the Rebbe as the universal Goel
Ultimate Kiruv
you are immature in understing the Rebbe and Zionisim, the Rebbe was against the secular Zionisim meaning a Jewish Nation with no tora, as hertzels theory was to be a Jew is as being Pole,Magyar, (Herzel Hiemland) etc... and also against the concept of Atchalta Degula of the Mizrachi, (doesn"t hold that Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is a Mitzva DeOraiso in our days), he wrote letters and said Sichas that it is Kefira to say so.He said a sicha with a analogy that zionisim is as the Rambams words in end of Hilchos Melochim on Jesus. However all has noting to do that if the fact is that Klal Yisroel is living their, it has to be priority number one by whoever is Mizera Avrhom Yitzchak Yakov, that Jews have to protected their in every shape or form by all means, and not do anything to tarnish their image abroad, since it will weaken the security of the Am haYoshev BeTzion.their is no sane human being that will tell u differently, nobody by the right mind will not do everything to save his possessions or life, by saying its up to Hashem to protect me, it is the will of Hashem that all the avenues of derech Hateva should be done.
Ultimate Kiruv
"the concept that Gules forbids a Jewish sovereignty before the appearance of a Goel, "
who is Mr Goles? did he make tora chadoshe? can I find his number in the White Pages?
Russian Chossid
Does the current Biusher wear a Tie/Shnipsel? as a kid he still wore a tie, as the photo,
to Imature Zionist
The main difference in Hertzels secularism and his predecessors is to negate what the Rambam paskens in hilcus meluchim like Shmuel: Ein Bein Olem Hazah V,Yemois Hamushiach Alu Shibud Malchius Bilvad, that means that for security measures you can do anything and everything BUT to have a sovereign state that means GULES
Immigrate,Appease,but no jurisdiction with own army,
too bad Kach Guzru Chumuso Yisbureich
Hertzel, Rambam? Meluchim? what are you talking about
You have know idea what you are talking about.
Mature Kanoi
"too bad Kach Guzru Chumuso Yisbureich"
do you live in a secure neighborhood you can call 911, Chavierem, Safety Patrol, ML Witriol, only the Jews in Eretz Hakodesh have to suffer from MR. Gulles
Anonymous said...
Hertzel, Rambam? Meluchim? what are you talking about
You have know idea what you are talking about
look it up in rambam
its in the same perek as Kmayim lyum M'chasim that you heard zillion times
feel my pain? what pain?
he was born in Mezokoveszd, Hungary
"Anonymous said...
you live in a secure neighborhood you can call 911, Chavierem, Safety Patrol, ML Witriol, only the Jews in Eretz Hakodesh have to suffer from MR. Gulles""
go back to your Chumesh and rambam
Ein Bein Olem Hazah V,Yemois Hamushiach Alu Shibud Malchius Bilvad, that means that for security measures you can do anything and everything BUT to have a sovereign state that means GULES
Immigrate,Appease,911, Chavierem, Safety Patrol, ML yes ,but no jurisdiction with own army,
hertzel also made fun of GULLES
but 'Kach Guzru Chumuso Yisbureich"
Hertzel H....
I know that perek rambam well, where is it written their, that u can not live in Eretz Yisroel Secure even the Moshiach did not appear?
Hirshel,
"Mezokoveszd"
where is it on the Map? close to Budapest? on the side of the austrian border?did it have a Rov? A Tielung?
Mezokovesd.
Read all about it here
good question.
I doubt it was big enough to have a Neology community, or status quo, for that matter.
I can ask my father about the Rov.
Anonymous asked ..
, where is it written, that u can not live in Eretz Yisroel Secure even when the Moshiach did not yet appear ?
Answer:
Rambam paskens in hilcus meluchim like Shmuel: Ein Bein Olem Hazah V,Yemois Hamushiach Alu Shibud Malchius Bilvad, that means that in the whole universe not only in EY for security measures you can do anything and everything BUT to have a sovereign state that means GULES
Immigrate,Appease,but no jurisdiction with own army,
At the Young Israel of Long Beach (NY), attorney Avrohom Moskowitz, a criminal defense lawyer, spoke Shabbos afternoon about the Rubashkin case. One point he made was that since the Rubashkin team went very public with his defense, it may have become necessary for the Government and the court to make him into an example, and teach other would-be white collar criminals a lesson. That's what governments do.
"He said a sicha with a analogy that zionisim is as the Rambams words in end of Hilchos Melochim on Jesus."
BS!
You can not find me the sichah in which the Rebbe says such a thing.
Anon(BS)
I am pardoning your french, But I saw in toras Menachem volumes, in the 1950 I will find it for U.
Until I find it for u,why are u so adamant about that statement that u had to express it with profanity?
Herzel Hiemland
This Rambam is a quote of Chazal and not a Pesak Halocha,its a biur of the words of his Halacha that he writes further, don't be a am Heoretz to take a word out of context, in matter of fact he writes that it is not a Ikkar in torah.
Reading Aym Habunim for the first time. It is more emotional and less scholarly than Vayoel Moshe. That is understandable as it was written in middle of the war.
Because the Brisker Rov said it.
Anon BS,
I know the Brisker Rov for along time, I never saw it printed but I heard it from reb Berels talmidim, But the Rebbe of Lubavich said the same thing,
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/15945
page 174
this should dispel the notion that the Rebbe was a Zionist - once and for all.
Anonymous said...
""http://www.hebrewbooks.org/15945
page 174 should dispel the notion that the Rebbe was a Zionist - once and for all...""
What will happen if a person will make a pamphlet from excerpts of that sicha and publicize it as educational materiel Boifen Hamiskabel not in Gibberish
i guess everyone in lubavitch will silence him
remember Mihu Yehidi??
i for one hold the rebbe was a closet Zionist from day one and the hisgalus happened in stages
Ultimate/Hertzel
there is 1 thing for sure you have in common with Herzel you talk about yidishkiet, but both are big amharatzim
Big big yasher koach on Buhush. Finally someone points out the travesty, how a formerly grand chassidus has been brought down low by a wildly kanai admor who has deviated sharply from his derech avos (BTW, ask Vizhnitz why they won't do shiduchim with this Buhusher). The previous Rebbe zatzal was the holy of holies, pure tzidkus; I had the great zechus of being karov to him for years in Tel-Aviv, before they took him off to Bnei Brak in his old age. Listen to me - the man was a Zionist through and through; he slept on the floor during the Israeli wars, saying that if Israeli soldiers are at war he can't sleep in bed. Teffila le'shlom chayalei tzahal was said in his shtiblach on Rothschild Blvd. in TA. I could go on and on. Unfortunately, his grandson has taken the chassidus 180 degrees away from the derech of his grandfather, to being utterly closed off from the world and utterly kanoi; granted, he's not a fake, I've known him since childhood and he was always this way. Suffice to say that his parents and grandparents were very unhappy with his derech. If the old Rebbitzen Faige could see her grandson now, taking part in these crazy Yaffo hafganot, I'm sure she'd beat him with a broom. She hated kanoim with a passion.
Anonymos:
BTW, ask Vizhnitz why they won't do shiduchim with this Buhusher)
i do not think Reb Shimele Makover or Rav Vosner or Rachamstrivke (Bohusher's Mechitunim) are any less then Vizhnitz :)
---Suffice to say that his parents and grandparents were very unhappy with his derech. If the old Rebbitzen Faige could see her grandson now, taking part in these crazy Yaffo hafganot, I'm sure she'd beat him with a broom. She hated kanoim with a passion---
B.S.!!!! BOHUSHER REBBE WAS NOT A KANOI,BUT HE LOVED HIS GRANDSON- IT IS KNOWN TO EVERYBODY WHO KNEW THEM. To say otherwise, is to show that all you saying above is a lie.
By the way, look at all other Rizhiner einiklech from Tel Aviv- NO COMENTS :(
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