Tuesday, September 6, 2011

Sterlizing the firebrand - "Chassidish Lite"
















The SR with Hertz Frankel standing left. Also seen are Yossel Ashkenazi and Sender Deitsch.


Yosef718's point may have been lost on some of us. He wasn't trying to discourage women who don't cover their sheitlach from coming to daven at the tziyun in KJ. Chas Vesholem. I think what he was trying to bring out is how the SR has been sterilized to be a lovable old zeide who only had nice things to say abut everybody and everything, and even his opposition to Zionism was in a nice way. I don't even think that Satmar itself has been leading this effort, it's mostly the Agudists and the Litwaukees. I'm not sure why this has been happening. He's no Satmar Chossid himself, Yosef, I can vouch for that, so what they made of the SR is what bothers him. Which is why he brings up the points about his opposition to socks and so on, to show those who so love him that the love was not necessarily mutual. Not only did he not care for their socks, he also didn't care for the Mishna Berurah ! at times. Not only did he not care for their socks and Mishna Berurah at times, but he held they (in Israel) were all Ovdei A"Z by speaking Hebrew and teaching the language in their schools and having their schools funded by the heathen Israeli Gov't.! Yet every year they eulogize him in the Agudist literature as if he were one of their own, and in Ami magazine we're treated to a weekly ongoing series about him, despite the fact that claim to be very "open-minded." This is one life's great mysteries.

Which brings us to the concept of Chassidish Lite. I once heard that term from a man in a bungalow colony we once went to. (We worked there, we didn't go there on vacation.) He was speaking about a cheder that his son attended in Flatbush (Midwood) and said that he liked it because it was "Chassidish Lite." They teach in Yiddish but they don't give the kids or parents a hard time in other aspects... This man was a very proud descendant of Lubliner Chassidim and wanted his son to at least have an affinity to some things Chassidish, which he would not get if he went to a school like YOB or CB. In many if not all Chassidishe Kreizen you see these Lite Chassidim. They come for a kvitel or to the simchas in the Rebbe's Hoyf, or they may even come for RH & YK, but they can't keep up with the regular vigor of everyday Chassidish life with its expectations and dress codes. Their parents and zeides were chassidim and they want to be as well. They send their kids to Litvishe Yeshivos probably because there they can have it all, am easier life and maybe become Lomdim too. They want it all. They're often men of means, so they get their due respect, despite the fact that they don't keep the takonos, etc. So, judging from the fact that the SR had "utter contempt," as Yosef718 so eloquently put it, for those who wore thin stockings, is there room in Satmar for the "Lite" crowd? He may not have minded that the men don't have the Chassidishe Levush, but he sure did mind when it came to the Ezras Noshim!

My only question to Yosef718 is: was the Rov not Yotze Mrs. Hertz Frankel with Shofar either? or was she never there for the הייליגע טעג so as not to cause any trouble?

(COMING SOON: Is there a "Chassidish Lite" element in Lubavitch?)

127 comments:

grainom said...

Well said Hershel. As was noted in this weeks yated, satmer has an achrayis expressed to all yidden. Intrinsically, the SR did not want a "lite" version as he famously said, gei gezinterheit if u don't like what I'm saying". However if u "belong" to satmar, from cradle to grave they will take care of you. Look around in wili at the geshtitzte berd.... R"l, or in CH too where it was almost from the gimel chamuros to trim their beard when I was growing up..

grainom said...

As waas duly noted in the previous thread on the issue of sheitlach the SR gave a drosha in shtuts besmedras begging for them and in his own forbidding them, why? Because he had and rock solid streak of pragmatism, to raise people up, lift their standards and then make them maintain them while providing the support needed to do so...

Anonymous said...

this hirsh is scared like a tzig, I commented on an earlier blog with a copy of a response letter by letter taken from divrei yoel (שו"ת דברי יואל חו"מ סי' קל"א - קל"ב). regarding kook but he didn't allow it to post why? every joe and moe's opinion was tolerated but SR z"l not the answer is in his name: Tzig'ele,scared like a tzig, now about the stupidy of the hanging scarf! that was there for the taking by whomever came without one should take it before entering (chsidish lite maybe) duh!, regards this picture of the rebbe was with a running official visiting on chol hamoid note the rebbe didn't want to look on him ... i dont know much about this new smear of willi chasidim trimming their beards i would say as a tzig with a beard he should trim his ..

Anonymous said...

tzig: "the love was not necessarily mutual. Not only did he not care for their socks, he also didn't care for the Mishna Berurah ! at times"

IDK about you maybe you need some psychology 101 lessons, but to me it was the other way around, because he cared deeply for 'them' he cared for their dressing codes! regardless of what the MB says or doesn't say!

Anonymous said...

It was noted by others Tzig and his site being lubab oriented is obssesed with satmar why? My take is to deflect that the biggest anti-zionist anti-hebrew speaking actually the first to mention the trangression of the 3 oaths by the zionists was none other the lubab. rebbe the mersha”b z”l !!!

Or maybe to deflect from the fact that according to the founder of lubab chasidus the tanya according to him (quoting tanya) we ‘all of us’ are not only בּינונים but full classic רשׁעים !!! Hey let’s ask this scared tzig to discuss full blown on these (our,not satmar) issues whats up with that?

koitz vedarder said...

lite chasidim r the biggest plus for a rabbisteve from the heavy chasidim u only get trouble and as the years go by they let out their anger on the rebbes kids le'dugma the heavy chasidim of reb ahron belzer were roidef the bilgoraya etc but the lite ones will always stay loyal, a rebbe is margish who his real friends are and who not ,and for this reason a rebbe who's not toifes machshove does not have the right gear to be a rebbe and by the way the kor hamivchen for all to see is after the rebbes ptireh if the chosid was an emesdige chosid rabbi hertz frankel passes the test with flying colors

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 11:52am

your comment never arrived

now ask mechillah

Babruisker said...

1. I once wrote to you about the current "Satmar Spring",

Generally, the Aronim are uncomfortable with the extremist elements of their theology and our either trying to water it down or simply ignore it, and are more then happy to let R' ZL take the mantle of zealot in cheif.

They are more exposed now to other views and feel some kinship to their brethren in Israel.

They squirm every time they are associated with the NT, not so 30 years ago.

[perhaps one can find parallels between them and left-leaning Chabad]

יש להאריך ואין כאן המקום

2. About Chassidish Lite, it is very common in Israel to find even Mizrochnikim who are proud of their heritage and regularly learn the heilige seforim or participate in tishen, i think this is most common by the Poilishe Chassidusen

In Golders Green there is a whole school, perhaps chasidish lite, under the auspises of Reb Chuna Halperin, where all the clean shaven belzers and bobovers send their kids.

3. You have yet addressed, in detail, the current surge of "חסידות ארצישראלית" where many people are blending Chasidishe seforim, teachings and minhogim, with Religious Zionist theology.

It is very common to see people learning chassidus and going to the mikvah with long peyos and a untrimmed beard, in addition to their kipa serugah.

This "kilayim" was primarily advanced by the late Rav Shagar.
http://www.siach.org.il/Contents.asp?pageName=Rav+Shagar+ZT%22L&pageID=347

This is all besides the isbitz and peshischa and rav tzadok which was already popular in that world.

Babruisker said...

You also forgot to mention that Frankfurter of Ami is himself
Satamr

Anonymous said...

Babruisker said... bla bla bla

פארדריי נישׁט קיין ספּאדיק
for starters click on link below and tell me if you know what you talking about!

aron teitelbaum - in his own words - speach in Jerusalem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHXpWnPuFwU

is this satmar lite?

Anonymous said...

Babruisker said...
"You also forgot to mention that Frankfurter of Ami is himself
Satamr"

interesting, a couple of weeks ago he was labeled a skeverer hmm

Anonymous said...

babruisker. and thats the reason why the bobover ruv ztl never wanted a shtiebel in golders green because a shtiebel with only lite chasidim hot nisht ka taam ,

Anonymous said...

If you look at klal yisroel, all great people that took a strong stand on any subject, were niskabel in klal yisroel after their view was watered down for the masses, and after years pass by the person comes across as a lovely grandpa with candies.
for example,
the Rambam's real view on many issues is real heresy by todays charidem
his view on aggada, his view on the Adam and eve saga with the Nachash Hakadmoni, his view on Techiyat Hamiesim, his anti Kabala, his view on Korbonoth.
after many decades it gets diluted.
The same with the Gra stand against chasidim.
The same with the Kotzker Rebbe
The same with Reb Aron Roth
It is a transformation that is constant developing.

Anonymous said...

Frankfurter is a Satmarer/Brisker that was leased by Skver for a shortwhile...

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Visnitz had 1000's of chasoidim that were more 99 milk then lite budwieser.
I saw in a interview from Rav Laus brother I think his name is Shiku, who is a Visnitzer Einikel,
that biem zieden(Ahavas Yisroel) in Groszwierdien there was a big crowd of cleanshaved white yarmulka chasidim on Rosh Hashanah.
I believe the Monsey Chasidim who are Viznitz lite and Satmar strong will deny it.

Anonymous said...

snon: "Anonymous said...
Frankfurter is a Satmarer/Brisker that was leased by Skver for a shortwhile..."

do you get any free mileage thrown
in the Ami Leasing Co. ? what makes one a satmerer did he learn, soaked himself or davened by the late SR? or just that he has some satmar readers enough?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציגsaid...
anon 11:52am

your comment never arrived

now ask mechillah

in the spirit of elul, I'm asking for your mechillah.

Anonymous said...

anon: "I believe the Monsey Chasidim who are Viznitz lite and Satmar strong will deny it"

r' motele from viznitz is a talmud from RJT z"l learned in satmar yeshivah!(before WWII) only left when on the request from his father z"l SR had to ask him to leave! but i dont think he ever learned in any other yeshivah

Maybe said...

"I think what he was trying to bring out is how the SR has been sterilized to be a lovable old zeide who only had nice things to say abut everybody and everything, and even his opposition to Zionism was in a nice way."

Those who know what he was really about tend to come in two flavors: you like it or you don't like it. Perhaps the sterilization you speak of is a gift to those who don't like it. The rebranding of a dangerous pitbull as Santa Claus. I don't think R. Yoelish would like it himself very much, hence the gift to those who were not fans.

As for why takka this happens in the Litvishe velt, I think the yeshivishe need a handful of examples of hashkafos which the gdeylim didn't agree with yet are still divrei elokim chayim so that they can feel that they haven't gone of the looney end.

Anonymous said...

yosef: "My only question to Yosef718 is: was the Rov not Yotze Mrs. Hertz Frankel with Shofar either? or was she never there for the הייליגע טעג so as not to cause any trouble?"

frankel was an agudist davent in the agudah of BP he got a job in satmar girls school english dept. because very few satmers could speak english at that time, however since he could speak english and was a good orator in delivering a message SR z"l asked him if he is willing to deliver an 'english' message on one of the ant-medina protests at the time, which he accepted for that 'sin' he got physically attacked in the agudah shul in BP! so hence he became a satmar english dept principal and a (part time) satmar spokesman as an הכרת הטוב by SR, now about the dress code and her where abouts on the high holidays IDK.

Babruisker said...

That token speech and visit in Jerusalem by AT was a procedural PR stunt and assertion of power positioning himself as the wealthy patron, "rich uncle" who worries about the poor kanoi folk in Jerusalem.

Did he say anything as extreme as his uncle?

or just the regular token speech?

Babruisker said...

That token speech and visit in Jerusalem by AT was a procedural PR stunt and assertion of power positioning himself as the wealthy patron, "rich uncle" who worries about the poor kanoi folk in Jerusalem.

Did he say anything as extreme as his uncle?

or just the regular token speech?

Yoske said...

anon 11:52
the same two requests from the general populace (who i apparently am now the spokesperson of) apply

Fed Up In Peoria said...

Every chassidus has decaffeinated chasidim. They get the shakedown and in return a bissel kuvod. Everyone goes home happy.

Satmar had many shaven chasidim - I don't think the SR told them anything about socks,hair, beard shtreimel. They paid the bills.

Grainom said...

http://grainom.blogspot.com/2011/09/question-to-all-answers.html

Anonymous said...

Anon
"r' motele from viznitz is a talmud from RJT z"l learned in satmar yeshivah!(before WWII) only left when on the request from his father z"l SR had to ask him to leave! but i dont think he ever learned in any other yeshivah"
you dont know what you ar talking about,
why did is father tell him to leave?
he learned for a much longer time in a other Yeshiva 100 km from Budapest,

Anonymous said...

Anon
"what makes one a satmerer did he learn, soaked himself or davened by the late SR? or just that he has some satmar readers enough?"
his father is a very proud Satmarer chosid, he was definitely in Satmar for yomin tovim
He was probably 14 to 15 years at Reb Yoels passing on

Anonymous said...

Maybe said... "The rebranding of a dangerous pitbull as Santa Claus. I don't think R. Yoelish would like it himself very much"

It's amazing how much lies and tipshus one can write and the paper written on tolerates it!

Anonymous said...

anon: "He was probably 14 to 15 years at Reb Yoels passing on"

That makes him around 3 years old in 1968 when the SR had a devastating stroke rc"l

Anonymous said...

Interistngily about all the comments about a lovable old zaydah. The first who comes to mind is the one who spoke down to Rav Kaduri, yet greated Bibi with such affection. You can see both videos on youtube. Talk about seeing true feelings.

Anonymous said...

I smell a new blood libel against chabad,
Kaduri no
Bibi Yes?

Anonymous said...

anon: "Interistngily about all the comments about a lovable old zaydah"

cute.

R.W. said...

That makes him around 3 years old in 1968 when the SR had a devastating stroke rc"l

Nonsense. Frankfurter and I were fellow classmates at the Satmar yeshiva in crown heights right up until the age of 12, and I'm 56 years old. That puts him at around the age of 13 at the time of the SR's stroke.

klainer said...

This is off topic but not completely.
Why is it that the average dyed in the wool Satmarer has no qualms about going to apikorsishe doctoirim and to utilize the latest diagnostic equipment such as MRIs and PET scans-all of which were the handywork of thousands of scientists-rubam kekulam of whom were apikorsim and free thinkers? Are they allowed to be neheneh from minim and apikorsim even a mashehu?I thought it was yehoreig veal yaavor.Azoi shteit in Veyoel Moshe.This is the whole reason why Tziyonus is treif because it is meenus and supposedly worse than idolatry.And how about those I-phones and Android phones which have dozens and probably hundreds of Israeli patents on their technology? When it comes to Tziyonus which equals meenus in Satmar ideaology,you should be ready to give your life,but when it comes to one's one health and even one's entertainment everything is permitted.Is there a heter in Satmarer theology to be neheneh from a min and apikorus?The American Jewish doctor who is a Reform or Conservative Jew and maybe a Zionist as well, is less of a min than a Zionist chaver haKnesset in Tel-Aviv?You rip off mogen dovids but you use I phones which were developed in Di Tziyonistishe Medineh i.e. Israel?Is there a teshuvah on these everyday issues somewhere in the" Halachic literature?"

Anonymous said...

Klainer
You have a strong point, the satmars will say you are ludicrous, but so is the Vayoel, even it is printed with rashi oisious

Shmuel said...

Cant wait for: (COMING SOON: Is there a "Chassidish Lite" element in Lubavitch?)....

Der Shygetz said...

"COMING SOON: Is there a "Chassidish Lite" element in Lubavitch?"

Your punctuation is incorrect. That sentence should end with an exclamation point. The non-lite element is disappearing fast because people follow the Rebbe's a baal agolo and his PR machine instead of the Rebbe.

Der Shygetz said...

Please stop spreading the medine technological advancements bubbamaises.

Most of those advancements come from US scientists, many of whom are of Asian origin or descent. EY is just the monkey in the middle, where the development step between the original research and the manufacturing (in Asia) is carried out. The scientists there are either robotic automatons with the mentality they learned in the army, or ex-Soviet hacks who are fine for outsourcing tasks that for now are above Asian outsourcing level.

Face it. Reb Yoilish ZYA was right. The medine spawned a miserable creature called the post-Zionist who does not even have pride in the medine - so why should we? We knew it was maase sitra achra to begin with.

The problem is that the medine does exist and there are Jews there who need to stop tarfing it up. We need to save those Jews from themselves and from their post-Zionist malaise.

Promoting the medine does no good because we add to their gaava. We need to look at them as what they are - children playing medine the way we played store or school as children - but they are playing on Hashem's Eretz haKodesh, against the posted park rules.

Fed Up In Peoria said...

you really are a Shygetz

yoshe kalb said...

Rich: chassidish lite
Poor: OTD

Yosef G said...

Hirshel,
You posed the question at the end of the post:"Is there a Lubavitch lite"?

In my humble opinion the question should be the other way round.
The "lite" Lubavitch version, today at least is becoming the most widely followed.See how good the chances of a very Chasidish Lubavitcher boy finding a normal shidduch.
The youth is taking a liking to the "lite" side.You can see pictures of chasunas on Lubavitch news websites were the scions of shpitz Lubavitcher, are on the very modern side.
So I pose the question: Will the very frum Lubavitcher stand up, or are they a fast disapearing breed?

An Ailmesher said...

What exactly was R. Yoileshe's attitude to the Mishna Berura and what is the attitude of chassidism in general today to the MB?

Anonymous said...

IIRC, until abt 30 yrs ago, satmar called the lite chassidim derisively "Sigiters". In very general terms, it meant a hungarian survivor, possibly a talmid of RYT in krula or satmar, shaves his beard, sent his kids to Tv"D or telz, but shows up on hoshana rabba to see the show and drops a few $$$ for the moisdos. Probably the most famous of these was R' Moishe Weiss from LA who gave big $$ every yr to satmar.
The name sigiters fell out of use after RMT took over, since he was the Sigiter prior to becoming the Sigiter-Satmar.
The bottom line is that every generation and every group has its definition of who are the real McCoys and who are the lite. Its very hard to pinpoint the line, since its forever changing, depending on currents within the group.

russian chusid said...

i do not understand -is mishne brire the only halocho seifer out there???
some paskin like MB and some do not. R Moishe Bick, Debreciner Rov, R'Weiss, R Yoinisen Shteif AND R. Moishe in 2/3 of times did not paskin like MB.

yakov said...

Der Shygetz made my day.
First - to reduce the complex and multifaceted ideology of anti-Zionism into two-bit joke and then pathetically try to deny reality to fit these 2 bits.
Thanks for a laugh.

Anonymous said...

Der shagetz
"Face it. Reb Yoilish ZYA was right. The medine spawned a miserable creature called the post-Zionist who does not even have pride in the medine"
if we are in a post zionist era, why fight 24/7 a bankrupt idea?

Anonymous said...

An Ailmesher said...
"What exactly was R. Yoileshe's attitude to the Mishna Berura"

The SR z"l mentions his name with the foreward of (if i remember right)אותו זקן וצדיק but in his yeshivah where the learned a shiur in shulchan oruch every afternoon, after the shiur the learned also some of the אחרונים like שלחן ערוך הרב but not MB i guess because he wasn't from the chasidum!

Anonymous said...

I challenge any Satamar chossid on this site to answer the following question: Do you admit that Rav Moshe Feinstein Ztvk"l was a tremendous Gadol and Tzadik?

Anonymous said...

anon: "Do you admit that Rav Moshe Feinstein Ztvk"l was a tremendous Gadol and Tzadik?"

YES he was a godal betorah, and I'm sure a tzadik to

Anonymous said...

"YES he was a godal betorah, and I'm sure a tzadik to"

Correct. He was a phenomenal Gadol B'Torah and a pure Tzadik.

But Reb Moshe did not hold that the medinah was a "maysah satan." He held it was a nes gului from the Ribono Shel Olam.

And Reb Moshe held that Rav Kook was a Gadol and Tzadik.

But Reb Moshe showed and received respect from the Satmar Rav as a fellow Gadol.

If the Satmar Rav showed respect to those who argued with him, why can't you?

Anonymous said...

anon: "But Reb Moshe did not hold that the medinah was a "maysah satan." He held it was a nes gului from the Ribono Shel Olam."

If true which I doubt than it's apekorsis (and I wouldn’t publicize it ), at best a colossal mistake just like many other gedolim had at the time, being a godol and making mistakes are not a contradiction! see his tshvous on artificial insemination which SR z"l refuted in 3 lengthy tshvous! and he responded, how come he didn't refute the SR on the medina issue in writing???

yakov said...

About Chssidish Lite in Lubavich - I think the real question is not whether it exists, but whether Chassidish "Hard" (or genuine, real, the way the Rebbeim want from us) exists in Lubavich still.
I heard from one chabadnik (not going to tell who) that there are no more chassidim in Chabad now, only soldiers, and for myself I'd say I am not sure about chassidim, but disagree about soldiers: everybody seems to be an armyless retarded general.
Well, I guess they can write on our graves: "He tried hard".

Anonymous said...

Anon
"ee his tshvous on artificial insemination which SR z"l refuted in 3 lengthy teshvous!"
Since you are a ignorant am oretz, you can not even realize that the SR, comes out very weak in his response against Reb Moshe,FYI,
the whole of Klal Yoisroel is using Reb Moshe's heter Beseser Ubegolie...A Time,Bonie Olem
Reb Moshe did no answer every Shalash seuda torah, eventough it his printed in a sefer format
It is Derush, Derush veoid hapam Derush..
The more you label all gedolie yisroel mistaking and apikorsim you and your Rebbe appear as fringe lunatics. You are not helping the Aatmar hate machine by your nonsense

Anonymous said...

anon חכם said:"the whole of Klal Yoisroel is using Reb Moshe's heter" "Reb Moshe did not answer every Shalash seuda torah, eventough it his printed in a sefer format"

Ah every one does it, that most be a real good defense!

Reb Moshe did not answer, and neither any other gedolim even they wrote teshvous 24/6 on every minute Q.! and neither did korach answer moshe rabbinu, and the medrash (not you or them ) tells us why!:

... כל הדברים האלו פייס משה לקרח ואין את מוצא שהשיבו דבר לפי שהיה פקח ברשעו אמר אם אני משיבו יודע אני בו שהוא חכם גדול ועכשיו יקפחני בדבריו ואני מתרצה לו בעל כרחי מוטב שלא אזקק לו כשראה משה שאין בו תועלת פירש הימנו.

במדבר רבה פרשה יח פסקה ט

? said...

How could the Rebbe be yoitze with such a small shtreimel??

Anonymous said...

Anon
"... כל הדברים האלו פייס משה לקרח ואין את מוצא שהשיבו דבר לפי שהיה פקח ברשעו אמר אם אני משיבו יודע אני בו שהוא חכם גדול ועכשיו יקפחני בדבריו ואני מתרצה לו בעל כרחי מוטב שלא אזקק לו כשראה משה שאין בו תועלת פירש הימנו.

במדבר רבה פרשה יח פסקה ט
So who his the Moshe and who is the Korach..

Anonymous said...

anon: "במדבר רבה פרשה יח פסקה ט
So who his the Moshe and who is the Korach.."

Its not so hard to figure out do the math yourself.

Anonymous said...

אויפצוקלערן קבל עולם ומלואה אז מיר זענען יא געטרייע בירגער! וואס זענען מקיים דעם דרשו את שלום העיר, און נישט חלילה קיין פאררעטטער און מתגרים באומות.

בייגעלייגט איז א לינק צו הערן די רעקלאמע וואס לויפט אין די טעג.
דער נוסח פונעם רעקאלמע איז פראפאסינעל אויסגעארבעט געווארן דורך מומחים אויף דעם געביט, און איז באזירט אויף די עצת החכם הזקן – די ווערטער פון רבינו הקדוש זי"ע בעל דברי יואל, וואס ער האט געשריבען אינעם בריוו, פארן פרעזידענט פון מאראקא.

http://wabcradio.com/default.asp

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=236

Anonymous said...

Always count on the crazy "neturei karta" bloggers to show their true colors. No wonder no one pays any attention to them (except when they make an international chilul Hashem and Gedolim put the leaders in cherem).

Anonymous said...

anon: "except when they make an international chilul Hashem" "No wonder no one pays any attention to them"

what is your definition of "chilul Hashem" ? does it only apply when a few youngsters visit a lunatic like Ahmadinejad but, it's ok when the head of the medina visits the head of state of germany, or the pope or yassir arafat or sadat etc., all of whom where implicated on murederers acts!, or when the head of the medina insults!!! with עזות וחוצפה יתירה the only hand the USA who feeds them and protects them, or insults the whole world jewrey by inslaving the weak the poor and the homeless palestines and the cheredim, or by running a jewish country with חוכת עכו"ם, or by having a jewish population with over 90% מחללי שבת all that is ok? no chilul hashem there??? (or maybe just a little?)or is it just SR z"l ש"ס תורה'ס the true chilul hashem (עפ"ל) excuse me MR. ANON! can you pay a 'little' attention' to these questions!and to your own writings?

Anonymous said...

The comments were not talking about any prime minister you don't even realize how insane you sound! We are talking about how niturei karta runs around claiming to be frum yidden while making a shocking chillul Hashem. To make matters even worse they then run around are mizalzel all the gedolei torah alive today..they are viewed a chutz hamacheneh by all G-d fearing Jews...but that still does not helo the fact that they are michalel shem shamayim r"l on a regular basis...stop quoting the satmar rav zt"l he never would support the crazy lunatic actions of niturei karta these days...they are nuts and don't represent anyone except themselves

Der Shygetz said...

Yakov, the so-called technological discoveries of the medine are what is outside reality.

Every time the medine comes up with something, someone else precedes or follows with a similar discovery almost momentarily. MS treatment, exoskeleton for paraplegics, the whole Shai Agassi pipe dream of electric cars. Why? Mossad industrial espionage - that's why.

The medine is a shame and it is winding down. It is as kosher as a loaf of bread on a seder plate No one even needs to fight it anymore. It has become irrelevant and a millstone around the necks of the American secular "Jews" who at the end of the day call its shots. It was a nice try, but it could not work and once Jews became free in what was the USSR, the medine outlived its use as a refuge.

Maybe, had 1967 been handled better with the nissim recognized and some ethnic cleansing taking place (as took place in the Arab world in 1948 - 1956), things would be different. But the whole ideology on which the state was built was rotten, and it was doomed to fail sooner or later. The next few years looks like the later.

The economic bubble in EY is about to burst, as we see from the tent protests. When that happens, along with the upcoming UN vote, prepare to welcome refugees from the medine, who IYH will show up at our doorstep so that we can teach them to live as Jews.

Der Shygetz said...

As for official Chabad, it has become a Jewish organization, no more and much less than the UJA. There is no difference between its globetrotting bureaucrats and the stationary bureaucrats of the Federation, except for appearance. The baal agule is an empty man, just a figurehead who is nothing as far as chassidishkeit is concerned. He and his fat sidekick are like machine politicians who basically give out jobs and patronage.

It's all kovod and gelt - for themselves, not for the Rebbe or for Yiddishkeit.

Many Chassidim do remain, but they go their own way and do their own thing. Some shluchim in the field do great work even if they are part of the baal agule's gravy train, but others just get canned programs from the head office and deliver them as poorly as you would expect graduates of today's Chabad smicha factory to deliver them.

The meshichisten, for all their mishegoss, are closer to old Lubavitch than Chabad Inc. is to real Yiddishkeit, let alone Lubavitch.

Anonymous said...

anon: "stop quoting the satmar rav zt"l he never would support the crazy lunatic actions of niturei karta " "The comments were not talking about any prime minister"

How about cheif rabbi of your medina (Yisrael Meir Lau) meeting the pope!

Or the cheif rabbi of england (Lord Sacks) another ויזתא meeting with the current pope a (former) member of the hitler youth gang, is that a chilul hashem enough for your taste that you can find closer to your heart to be מוחה

you say stop quoting SR!, you maybe right, as the saying goes: גיי לערן מיט א גוי בּרטנורא

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/22/world/pope-meets-a-chief-rabbi-feeding-talk-of-israeli-ties.html

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/10/18/chief-rabbi-my-meeting-with-the-pope-was-an-epiphany/

Anonymous said...

Anon
" אויפצוקלערן קבל עולם ומלואה אז מיר זענען יא געטרייע בירגער! וואס זענען מקיים דעם דרשו את שלום העיר, און נישט חלילה קיין פאררעטטער און מתגרים באומות."
the posters say the that majority of the USA is against Obama's handling in the Mideast, are we still Misgareh Beumoth, Can we do Achrie Rabim Lehatoth,
Does the SR discuss it in his gevaldige sefer ?that nobody dared to answer"

Anonymous said...

Anon
"יז באזירט אויף די עצת החכם הזקן – די ווערטער פון רבינו הקדוש זי"ע בעל דברי יואל, וואס ער האט געשריבען אינעם בריוו, פארן פרעזידענט פון מאראקא."
How smart was the Chochem Hazoken when he stopped Jews from going to Palestine before WW2?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"it's ok when the head of the medina visits the head of state of germany, or the pope or yassir arafat or sadat etc., all of whom where implicated on murederers acts!, "
According to the newfound Satmar Religoun, he is doing the right think when he kneels for these gentiles, you should applaud him for that. He is following the path of the Chochem Vezoken.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"or when the head of the medina insults!!! with עזות וחוצפה יתירה the only hand the USA who feeds them and protects them,"
is there some Issur in shulchan orech for that? or it is all nefound religoun?
Obviously if the USA gives them still money they have a interest in it too, and he has to talk straight in their face when he believes(so far he does call the Natrunoai office) that the safety of his countrymen are in danger.
Plus the US congress are on the same page as Bibi,we don't live in a monarchy, and they represent America as much as the president.

Anonymous said...

Der Shagetz
"Every time the medine comes up with something, someone else precedes or follows with a similar discovery almost momentarily. MS treatment, exoskeleton for paraplegics, the whole Shai Agassi pipe dream of electric cars. Why? Mossad industrial espionage - that's why."
I think you should change your name to Der Shoteh, you are pipedreaming some fringe conspiracies..

Anonymous said...

Der Shagetz
"The medine is a shame and it is winding down"
how is it winding down, it is the rolemodel of a country economical, beauty....
wishful(tzorer Hayehudim) thinking...
it is for sure De Rebbe iz Geven Gerecht...De Medine iz Untergenagen...

Anonymous said...

DerShagetz
"As for official Chabad, it has become a Jewish organization, no more and much less than the UJA."
Why UJA?
Why not Rav Tov?CRC?ODA? UJO? Asra Kadishe? Keren Hatzolah?Chavierim?Natronouai?Shekel Hakodesh?Shomrie Hachomoth?

Der Shygetz said...

LOL all of those organizations (or the ones that actually function and do something for Yidden) are, at least on the face of it, Torah organizations.

Chabad.inc is a secular Jewish "tikun olam" organization barely clothed in a kapote. They might as well put Boteach in charge when the baal agule is too old or no longer in this world. It's all glitz and PR and watered-down Judaism, and money, money, money - kashered by a few out-of-context quotes from the Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

anon: "stop quoting the satmar rav zt"l he never would support the crazy lunatic actions of niturei karta " "The comments were not talking about any prime minister"

How about cheif rabbi of your medina (Yisrael Meir Lau) meeting the pope!

Or the cheif rabbi of england (Lord Sacks) another ויזתא meeting with the current pope a (former) member of the hitler youth gang, is that a chilul hashem enough for your taste that you can find closer to your heart to be מוחה

you say stop quoting SR!, you maybe right, as the saying goes: גיי לערן מיט א גוי בּרטנורא

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/22/world/pope-meets-a-chief-rabbi-feeding-talk-of-israeli-ties.html

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/10/18/chief-rabbi-my-meeting-with-the-pope-was-an-epiphany/

Anonymous said...

Der Shagetz
"Chabad.inc is a secular Jewish "tikun olam" organization barely clothed in a kapote."
is a new orthodox shul in a neighborhood that never had such a shul, considered glitz, pr,
many Jews are getting closer to yoidishkiet,thru this shuls,not every Jew in this shuls are shomer shabos yet, but many Jews did become Shomer Shabos,eating kosher, sending kids to Jewish day schools, (atleast the 10's of shluchim that I know)
Is one Yid putting on tefilin, not more important then(for example) the whole Asra Kadisha???
Boteah shmoteach is not part of chabad, there are 4000 other Shluchim that are not boteach's, so don't make him as the face of Chabad.

Der Shygetz said...

1) Read what I wrote a few comments ago about shluchim in the field.

2) I fear that a sizeable minority of the new Chabad Inc. shuls are Orthodox-lite and will not accomplish much other than providing a Saturday morning social activity on the way to the malls or the beach. It really depends upon the individual shaliach and whether he is interested in Torah or just operating a franchised business.

Anonymous said...

I’ll admit I’m not a lubab, although I knew some lubab’s which I admired their תמימות and their דביקות , said that unfortunately the lubab tsunami.. came precisely because of their תמימות the SR z”l once said that תמימות was one of the admired trades by chasidum many folk stories where told about them, but zionisim eradicated that מעלה in todays world you cant be a תמים because you will be taken advantage of.. just like they (tzionim) did with the moroccon kids when they loaded them on planes with sheilds plastered on with the words ואשא אתכם על כנפי נשׁרים than took them to kibtuzim and slaughtered them רח"ל

In the current lubab situation I would suggest that their must be several separate lubab kehilous (just like there is satmar ones) which one critisizes the others, but all adhere to the basics (more than less), now lubab is different but to survive their must be atleast one! Lubab kehila who adhere to basics without פּשׁרות and to shun (for a while) the שיטות ופרצת which eats them at the core.. and in the spirit of ! עת לעשות לד' הפרו תורת ופרצת

Anonymous said...

Anon
From Todays Haretz via Drudge Report
The future independent Palestinian state will not include a Jewish minority, a top Palestinian official told USA Today on Wednesday, adding that it was in the best interest of both peoples to "be separated."

Maen Areikat, PLO Ambassador to the United States, made the comment just as the Palestinian Authority, led by President Mahmoud Abbas, was preparing to offer up Palestinian statehood to a vote in the United Nations General Assembly later this month.

this is a taste of the new Satmar/ Palestinian state

Anonymous said...

Der Shagetz
"The meshichisten, for all their mishegoss, are closer to old Lubavitch than Chabad Inc. is to real Yiddishkeit, let alone Lubavitch."
Is moshe kotlarsky not Yiddishkiet?
Is Berel shem Tov not Yiddishkiet?
is Rav shochet of LA not Yisddishkiet
Is Azimov of France not Yiddishkiet?

What hate are you spewing here?

Anonymous said...

Der Shagetz
"when the baal agule is too old or no longer in this world."
why are you Mechane Shem Ra?
ein Loi chelek Loilem Haboi,
Why are you wishing the demise of a Jew a shomer torah umitzvois?

Anonymous said...

You are sounding more and more crazy...who's talking about chief rabbis and prime ministers? we are talking about the chillul Hashem that neturei causes against all Jews in the world...and the sickening zilzul they spew against the gedolei hador...they are a fringe group that makes everyone look terrible...they cause are one of the most destructive forces against frum yidden...because they claim to be frum and chareidi...

Anonymous said...

anon: "You are sounding more and more crazy"

yes you do have a nice day, get well soon.

Anonymous said...

I’ll admit I’m not a lubab, although I knew some lubab’s which I admired their תמימות and their דביקות , said that unfortunately the lubab tsunami.. came precisely because of their תמימות the SR z”l once said that תמימות was one of the admired trades by chasidum many folk stories where said about them, but zionisim eradicated that מעלה in todays world you cant be a תמים because you will be taken advantage of.. just like they (tzionim) did with the moroccon kids when they loaded them on planes with sheilds plastered on with the words ואשא אתכם על כנפי נשׁרים than took them to kibtuzim and slaughtered them רח"ל

In the current lubab situation I would suggest that their must be several separate lubab kehilous (just like there is satmar ones) which one critisizes the others, but all adhere to the basics (more than less), now lubab is different but to survive their must be atleast one! Lubab kehila who adhere to basics without פּשׁרות and to shun (for a while) the שיטות ופרצת which eats them at the core.. and in the spirit of ! עת לעשות לד' הפרו תורת ופרצת

Anonymous said...

Anon
"said that unfortunately the lubab tsunami.. came precisely because of their תמימות the SR z”l"
How much criticism was Satmar ruv capable to digest, you started talking to him logic, he hollered apikoras apikoras. He did not tolerate no dissent, and no Satmarer chosid ever questioned his new found religoun, so stop this Temimias nonsense

Anonymous said...

Is there 1 satmar kehila that is not marim yuad betoras moshe?
Can we get 1 small satmar minyan that is not in the secular court?

Der Shygetz said...

The medine IS winding down:

Look at the tent protests.

Look at the UN vote.

Look at America turning against the medine. And it wasn't just Obama.

Look at Turkey, a friend to Jews since the Inquisition.

They tried. They messed up and built malchus Yoravam ben Nevot. You can't build a secular polity in Eretz haKoidesh. Nice try. Game over.

Chabad Houses better be prepared because one thing even Chabad Inc. - ChabadLite houses can do very well is to welcome refugees from the medine who need moral support to acclimate to their lands of refuge. They need to be welcomed as Jews and not scorned the way "Israelis" scorn newcomers.

Der Shygetz said...

Can we get 1 small satmar minyan that is not in the secular court?

Yes. The one that shares a building with Heichal Menachem in BP, unless that is not officially Satmar.

Fed Up In Peoria said...

The greatest rabbis should gather immediately and excommunicate the Zionists. They should exclude them from the Jewish people by forbidding their bread, their wine and intermarriage with them. (Mara D‟ara Yisroel v. 2 p. 43)

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, rabbi of Frankfort, Germany (1808–1888)

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/TheRabbisSpeakOut.htm#LinkTarget_883


Did you know that NK are Hirschians?

No shame.

larry said...

Hey Shygetz, From your blog you seem to have nothing but disdain for Satmer.Are you a Zionist but the medineh needs to be frum? You regret the lack of ethnic cleansing after June'67 so are you a hasid of R. Meir Kahane HYD?Are you a follower of the misnachlim?Since you're no longer a ponim chadoshos here,how about a short synopsis of what you stand for?

Anonymous said...

you are spewing such foolish nonsence its amazing that you may actually believe it..

"Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, rabbi of Frankfort, Germany (1808–1888)"

Key line: 1808-1888

Are you aware that in 1888 MOST Gedolim were against an idea of creating a secular "medinah"?

But that after it was done in 1948, they supported it without being a partner?

You have such a pathetic loosing argument that you need to quote rabbonim who are niftar and can't contradict you. impressive.

let's go list ANY gedolim alive today who support niturei karath...nuuu???

Yep. There are none.

Anonymous said...

anon:"let's go list ANY gedolim alive today who support niturei karath...nuuu???"

NO ONE on this blog yet supported the NK! - so y'all can stop barking, said that there is many gedolim passed and alive! who do! (of course you dont know them because your party doesnt approve it) as mentioned on other threads, however i must add between all the lunatic fringes like kach, kahan, shas, eretz haslima, gush lubab, etc etc etc the NK is still the least violent and the most responsible (who actually dont act with out the gedolim's haskamas)but since its a clandestine org. they are not publicized the fact that y'all eat your hearts out over it must be that it actually does work! the message is getting out!!!כה לחי

Anonymous said...

"there is many gedolim...alive! who do!"

Lie number 1

"(who actually dont act with out the gedolim's haskamas)"

Lie number 2

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Look at the tent protests."
the tent protest just shows that Israel is strong and the biggest problem is cottage cheese prices

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Look at the UN vote."
Israel survived already 10's of anti Israel votes and it will survive this 1 too

Anonymous said...

Der shagetz
"They tried. They messed up and built malchus Yoravam ben Nevot. You can't build a secular polity in Eretz haKoidesh. Nice try. Game over."
If the Medina will still be around in another 5 years will I be able to say on the Satmar shita it was a nice try the shitah is over

Der Shygetz said...

1) Creedmoor is NOT a parody of "Satmar." It is a parody of NK and of the Otisville crowd. I have nothing but respect for Reb Yoilish ZYA and I feel Reb Aron shlit"a is following in his ways although KJ doesn't seem to work very well.

2) I wish the medine had never happened. Once it did happen, it had to stand up and be Jewish. Soinim, especially Arabs, only understand strength. Hashem showed it far more chessed than it deserved in 1967 - and idiot Dayan gave the Muslims the keys to Har haBayis instead of expelling Arabs at least from Y-m as the Arabs expelled Jews in the 50's and putting the mosque under Jewish control with very limited hours for highly monitored "prayer."

The medine now has no life left in it. The economic and hi-tech boom is smoke and mirrors - a mirage and a bubble. There is no peace from within or from without. Every sector in society is corrupt, including the haredim. I believe at this point that barring a substitute for oil, world pressure will force the de facto dismantlement of the medine. It was a nice experiment but a failure and the biggest chilul Hashem ever. I will not shed a tear so long as it is dismantled peacefully or by attrition.

The medine is the ultimate "golus Jew" - it begs the world for money and support like the innkeeper of old begged from the poritz. It combines the worst of the old USSR with the worst of the US pop culture. It was supposed to be its own poritz, but because it did not follow Torah or even stand up for itself as a Jewish country, it is bound to fail as the world turns against it.

It is also the number one source of anti-Semitism in the world precisely because it doesn't stand up for itself and lets world opinion walk all over it.

Der Shygetz said...

I think it has more than 5 years, but within the next 5 years there will be a swing to the left that will lead to societal and moral collapse, with a huge emigration as it was in the 80's.

Only a substitute for oil can save the medine. (Moshiach will not allow its structures to remain in place.) As long as the Islamic world has oil money, they will use it to make sure the state always has to spend huge amounts on defense and has to live in a constant state of fear, at the expense of the nations of the world.

Had it stood up in 1967, or even invaded Cairo and Damascus in 1973, everything might have been different. But an innkeeper that depends on a poritz doesn't do more than cry for aid and sympathy when things get tough.

Anonymous said...

"...it is bound to fail as the world turns against it....It is also the number one source of anti-Semitism in the world precisely because it doesn't stand up for itself and lets world opinion walk all over it."

So you prefer the world to stand against the Jews when they have their own military and country under their control. Or, when they are at the mercy of whatever country they happen to living in?

Listen to your moronic statements. In 1938 there was no medina and the fires of anti-semitism were at their peak. And during the crusades, and during the expulsions, and during the bloody churbanos, etc.

It's really amazing how you drink the anti-semite propoganda. They claim that if there was no Israel, there would be no ant-semitism. Read the history books, it is the biggest lie. For most of the past 2000 years Jews have been hated, massacared and persecuted by either Christians, Muslims, or both- all over the world- for one reason. Because they are Jewish. Nothing to do with Israel. Nothing to do with a medina that didn't exist.

Now think things over and realize your amazingly foolish error.

larry said...

I have nothing but respect for Reb Yoilish ZYA and I feel Reb Aron shlit"a is following in his ways although KJ doesn't seem to work very well.-from the Shygetz
I got news for you. You may respect Reb Yoel Z'L but anyone who says that there should be more hisgarus beumos by the medineh is not going to be respected by SR.He was as much against a medineh headed by Menachem Begin or even R.Itche Meyer Levin as he was against A medineh headed by Ben -Gurion. You are the perfect example of the Satmar "lite" ideaology that pretends the SR was the Rebbe of klal Yisroel. He cared only about his shitte which said that even the slightest tziyonus was mines and was yehoreig veal yaavor. R.Aron T. is a joke when it comes to the shitte. The SR's real successors are the Bnei Yoel.Read the VYMoshe and Al Hageulah veal... and you'll know that the SR had no place for compromise. Yes it's true that he visited the Rizhiner Rebbes and the previous Belzer but more often than not they would end up having some major disagreement over the shitteh.So when you say you respect the SR-you don't even know who the SR was so how do you respect him?Let people tell you what happened in Telz when he visited Cleveland.It wasn't pretty to say the least...

Der Shygetz said...

I am not Satmar. Far from it. Reb Aron is not my Rebbe because I don't follow the Satmar shittah in many ways.

My own anti-Zionism doesn't have a thing to do with the three oaths. I think the medine could have been saved but it was only possible to do so for a fleeting moment in 67 and again in 73.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe tried to save the medine from itself beahava/bechessed. He was ignored when push came to shove - and now we see what is going on in Egypt and how right he was about the treaty. Rav Meir Kahane HYD, who admittedly had many loose screws, tried to save it from itself beyirah/gevurah. He was banned from Knesset.

The Satmar Rov and Reb Amram Bloy tried to save us from a medine and that was the best, but the least practical, course of action. That would have worked if FDR YMS had allowed refugees into the US. In the end, Obama's successors will be allowing refugees from EY in barring a ness or the end of the oil weapon.

At present, like it or not, the reason for anti-Semitism in Europe is the medine. IF it had stood strong, then Europeans would admire the Jews for standing up. Instead, they see us as the little innkeeper in the corner again.

(The reason for anti-Semitism in the US, such as it is, is the Otisville crowd.)

Anonymous said...

"At present, like it or not, the reason for anti-Semitism in Europe is the medine. IF it had stood strong, then Europeans would admire the Jews for standing up. Instead, they see us as the little innkeeper in the corner again."

Once again:

So you prefer the world to stand against the Jews when they have their own military and country under their control. Or, when they are at the mercy of whatever country they happen to living in?

Listen to your moronic statements. In 1938 there was no medina and the fires of anti-semitism were at their peak. And during the crusades, and during the expulsions, and during the bloody churbanos, etc.

It's really amazing how you drink the anti-semite propoganda. They claim that if there was no Israel, there would be no anti-semitism. Read the history books, it is the biggest lie. For most of the past 2000 years Jews have been hated, massacared and persecuted by either Christians, Muslims, or both- all over the world- for one reason. Because they are Jewish. Nothing to do with Israel. Nothing to do with a medina that didn't even exist yet.

Now think things over and realize your amazingly foolish error.

Der Shygetz said...

Please READ what I have to say.

The medine does NOT stand up for itself. It has not achieved economic or political independence. If it DID stand up for itself, the European shkootzim would be afraid of Jews as they were for a few weeks in 1967. Instead, it is the ma yoffis little tailor or kretschmer in the corner - EXACTLY the European stereotype of a shameful little Jew. Look at the prisoner exchanges to see how the little kretchmer shlimazl bows to the poritz.

No one fears the army anymore. They know its hands are tied by public opinion and an increasingly indifferent American public. No one looks up to the medine except a cabal of RZ wannabees in Teaneck. Even the real RZ sing a new tune - it's called Hashem Hu Malkenu, an updated version of Reb Amram's Hashem Hi Malkynee and not at all like what the NK fools sing off tune.

It is the medine's behavior, not the fact that it exists, that is the cause of anti-Semitism. The world sees Jews giving shuls to yishmoeli animals in Gush Katif for the animals to desecrate - so a bored skinhead does the same in Europe.

Such a medine, we do not need. It had its chance to listen to the Rebbe or to Rav Kahane. Now, its refugees plop on yarmulkes to open sleazy shawarma joints on 13th Avenue (never mind the sleazier rabbis who give them hashgocho - those are my Creedmoorer Chassidim).

Anonymous said...

Der Shygetz said... “(The reason for anti-Semitism in the US, such as it is, is the Otisville crowd.)” “the European shkootzim would be afraid of Jews as they were for a few weeks in 1967. Instead, it is the ma yoffis little tailor or kretschmer in the corner”

So you want them to revolt! omg! (shygetz bleibed shygetz) The highest profile member of otisville is the ma yoffis yidel הק' Rubashkin which although kind of guilty of running a immature chasidshe business in a goyishe town! But that business started out as a direct boycut of satmar meat by lubab! Not exactly לשם שמים When satmar and the world didn’t accept (again) the directive of the LR in regards entebe!!! So I would say to shygetz : קריינא דאגרתא ליהוי פרוונקא

Anonymous said...

Larry said: “Let people tell you what happened in Telz when he visited Cleveland. It wasn't pretty to say the least...”

So you see what happened to cleveland/telz! הוי זהיר בגחלתן

Anonymous said...

The medina pro and con is the most controversal and discussed topic for the last 100 years and I suspect for the next 100 (with or without it..), from an halacha and hashkufa point of view no one came near in explaining it more than the SR z”l not only in the monumental work of the VM, but in litterally 100’s of written and recorded speaches and writings! It is immposible to refute a master like him because even you will do it a 100 times you will still be left with other 1000’s of written arguments/opinions against the medina by him that was not refuted! And if you going to refute him ‘all the time’ than you must conclude that he was a nobody who erred 1000’s of times and that is a nomer! Right?

My point is start reading/learning his seforim on this topic so your comments will be more intelligent and to the point, and you will see how he penetrated all of our lives!(even when he feels to you repulsive ח"ו) after all if y’all gonna talk about him/shita atleast try to understand him his daas torah (not just one liners) on this topic atleast! Because he him self I would say it applies the: אדמך אכנך ולא ידעתיך

Anonymous said...

"It is the medine's behavior, not the fact that it exists, that is the cause of anti-Semitism."

And you keep repeating the assinine lie. It's amazing that you think without the current medina there would be less anti-semitism. Yep...that really worked well in the "pre medina years" of 1938 or the spanish inquisition. Or the British expulsion, etc etc...

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:36:00 PM said,
My point is start reading/learning his seforim on this topic so your comments will be more intelligent and to the point, and you will see how he penetrated all of our lives!"

I read VM and Al hageulah...
it's more of a rant against the medina than a serious sefer. He really blows it when he tries to prove his shittah al pi halacha. As a philosophy we can argue forever if he was right, but he stretches halacha to fit his worldview in ways that an open minded person would find laughable. Just for starters, most reshonim hold the 3 oaths is aggadata and not halacha. There's plenty more to go around on this VAK"M.

Der Shygetz said...

Rubashkin did not start because of the Satmar boycott. Rubashkin's butcher shop in BP goes way back and Chabad always had some sort of shechita of its own.

If anything they got big when Weiss in Pittsburgh was unfairly shut down and later compensated for health violations.

Rubashkin was no ma yoffis yid - not the father, not the sons and not the grandfather Reb Getzel AH. They were too gutsy and too proud and tried to mix chessed with a very nasty business in a rotten environment. They just should have opened in Argentina or Uruguay and set up a shtetl of Chabadnikim from EY and South America there. Better cattle, easier labor laws, people who appreciate having work, and PETA would get shechted fast if they ever dared to touch the South American beef industry.

They were trying to be baalei chessed and save American shochtim the travel time when they just should have left the US and gotten away from all the regulations, unions and PETA.

Der Shygetz said...

LOL at the reason for the boycott of Satmar meat having to do with Entebbe (which I do not think was a ness, just good work by what was then a crack fighting force against a bunch of ragtag terrorists in an airport that was built by experts from the medine). It had to do with physical attacks on Lubavitchers as Satmar began to unwind into the kovod and gelt Shygetz Arosz - Moishe Schvimmer era.

Both brothers seem to be yayin ben chometz as far as other kreizen are concerned.

Anonymous said...

anon: "most reshonim hold the 3 oaths is aggadata and not halacha."

here we go again, according to 'targim yenohson' it was given to moshe rabbanu on mount sinai! the rambam in egeros timon (which was written at his old age) warns not to transgress on it!! so does the mahara"l,and so does your rebbe the maharsha"b and many others, however dont kid yourself that SR wasnt aware in this sigya as much as you.. but my point is that you cant refute him a 1000+ times on all his writtings and still think of him as a serious person which you all do discussing him/shita for over 50 years since the VM came out

Anonymous said...

Der Shygetz said...
"Rubashkin did not startecause of the Satmar boycott. Rubashkin's butcher shop in BP goes way back and Chabad always had some sort of shechita of its own."

of course not but the LR declared a boycut on CRC products thats when rubashkin seperated from liberman in BP as an alternate to CRC and lubab was behind it

Anonymous said...

"Der Shygetz said...
"as Satmar began to unwind into the kovod and gelt Shygetz Arosz "

so they replaced Shygetz Arosz-with shygetz arein? who can argue with shygetz himself, or you're just babling words, so you agree that rubab/lubab shcita started as a vendata?

Anonymous said...

anon
Targum Yonasan ?????
source please

Anonymous said...

anon:Targum Yonasan ?????
source please

תרגום יונתן, שיר השירים עה"פּ השבעתי אתכם בנות ירושלים : פתח, לבתר כן אתאמר למשה בנבואה..

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:59,
thanks for proving my point. targum yoinason and igeres taimon don't make it halacha l'maiseh. The Rambam does not mention it in sefer hayad and neither does the mechaber. The SR tried to make this a halachik issue and if you don't follow his shittah, you're a koifer, sheygetz and G-d knows what else. As I wrote above, he's entitled to his shittah as a philosophy and derech hachayim but his mistake IMHO was trying to make it into a halachik issue.
BTW, show me a source where the Rebbe Rashab mentions the 3 oaths, I haven't found it.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"the rambam in egeros timon (which was written at his old age)"
did you ever see a posek quote the letters of Yemen?
did you realize that the Rambam writes in the Yemenite letter that the 3 oaths are not written factual, just a Moshel?

Anonymous said...

Der Shagetz
"(which I do not think was a ness,"
is it a less miraculous then ness purim?

Anonymous said...

Anon: “thanks for proving my point. targum yoinason and igeres taimon don't make it halacha l'maiseh.” “did you ever see a posek quote the letters of Yemen?”

IDK how I proved your point by refrencing the targim, however the way you analize things and pick and choose part of a sentence and make it as a whole is a method of the יוונים'ס time, there is nothing wrong with quoting a letter of yemen from the ‘rambam’
BTW! but it is wrong when your tactic is to (qoute it of of context) to use it as a tactic to slash and burn only! And to use it as smoke and fire method to prove for something that it was not intended for, just to confuse the reader like you’re saying something when you’re proving or saying nothing! Nada!
For the last time I’ll try to get thru to יווני'שע head, the 3 oaths is, was, and will be relevant! since its given on month sinai 3x dozes ! to emphsize it clearly andis mentioned in the gemorah kesibus + medrushim + in halach context!, although it is not mentioned in shilchan orech just like other non relevant halachas in our time are not mentioned! Saying this I’ll add when it was relevant like by the: בני אפרים, בר כוכבא, בימי הרמב"ם, ש"ץ, ציונים time it was and does became potent and the sages of that times are mentioning it! As a dangerous item to transgress, In the spirit of : והמכשלה הזאת תחת ידיך אין אדם עומד על דברי תורה אלא אם כן נכשל בה!!! Which it became most relevant in our time unfortunately!
the VM is the sole autority on this subject since it became clearly מבורר in his sefer in a detailed manor which non of the others clarified them כדרכו של תורה otherwise! + 100's of other איסורים and dangers associated with and pertaining to the existence of this מדינה של גיהנם

Anonymous said...

anon: "BTW, show me a source where the Rebbe Rashab mentions the 3 oaths, I haven't found it."

in the מכתבי המהרש"ב which was printed in his z"l time while he was alive! widely available (to those who want them) althoug I'm not sure by 'kehot' actually he is the firs one! mentioning it that it pertains to zionisim and how dangerous it can become!! by transgressing it, also that learning ivrith is an abomination !

ps: I'm sure dear hirshel can get it for you, if you ask him nicely.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
to put it mildly,
du hakst a chainig

Anonymous said...

Anon:to "put it mildly,du hakst a chainig"

how about זיי מיר געזונד - זיסע חלומת

Anonymous said...

Anon: "did you realize that the Rambam writes in the Yemenite letter that the 3 oaths are not written factual, just a Moshel?"

Are you kidding does this look to you like a משל or is it more like
והיית לשמה למשל ולשנינה בכל העמים

כתובות קי"א
בצבאות או באילות השדה אמר רבי אלעזר "אמר להם הקב"ה" לישראל אם אתם מקיימין את השבועה מוטב ואם לאו אני מתיר את בשרכם כצבאות וכאילות השדה

רח"ל

Anonymous said...

you can bring Pesukim till tomorrow, but the fact is the same, that is the problem with this all shjta, derush,hype, agadatta, are made into one big chulent.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"TW! but it is wrong when your tactic is to (qoute it of of context) to use it as a tactic to slash and burn only! And to use it as smoke and fire method to prove for something that it was not intended for, just to confuse the reader like you’re saying something when you’re proving or saying nothing! Nada!"
quoting Agaddata as halacha, is dangerous territory, anti halaca and Megaleh pPnim Betorah sheloi Kehalacha,
There are enough midrashim that in Eretzy Yisroel, you get Olem Haba just for the sake of residing there and speaking the language. the zionist used to quote, there is a Ramnban that all mitzvahs in Chutz Leoretz are just pointers, and are only meant to be in the know, of them for the arrival of Moshiach .
Imagine me publishing a sefer with all the above quotes and say whoever does not agree is a apikores.
You and the Veyoel Moshe are in the same trap....

Anonymous said...

anon: " the problem with this all shjta, derush,hype, agadatta, are made into one big chulent."

eat your spinach/chulent/whatever!

Der Shygetz said...

LOL. The Lieberman-Rubashkin split had nothing to do with Satmar. The Rebbe wanted them to be partners but things did not work out. The subject is one I don't want to discuss for personal reasons but I know the inside story.

CRC was hardly a force in the meat world. The Alle/Meal Mart hechsher was Volover or Nirbator except for the meat that was and is processed by them and sold in the "Satmar Flysch Gescheft'n" in BP and Willy.

Agri did get big because of the spread of Chabad, but not at the expense of Alle which grew quite nicely even when Rubashkin was in business. Agri's flawed business model came about because they tried to ride the Chabad expansion for profit (getting meat into supermarkets near Chabad Houses in small lots at high profit) and mix gashmius and ruchnius in the wrong way.

Purim and Chanukah were "rabim bead meatim." Entebbe was the victory of the strong against the weak, even if it was of course also the victory of good over evil. Hashgacha protis that the dumb terrorists chose that airport - yes. A ness - no.

Anonymous said...

Shegetz
"Purim and Chanukah were "rabim bead meatim"
you are correct on chanuka, but Purim was pure Jewish Shtadlunus a hidden miracle in mundane deeds. By Entebbe 100's of details could have gone wrong to derail the rescue mission... and the hasgocha elyona not the Yoni brigades Koichi Veoitzem Yoodi
Don't forget Idi Amin was a Melech Tipesh as Achashvierosh was a Melech Tipesh

Der Shygetz said...

At that time, the yishmoeli terrorists were not who they are today, and Amin was short so many screws, that the mission was bound to succeed.

Of course, as we saw in Lebanon and Gaza recently, when there is no siyata deshmaya there is no success for the toy soldiers of the home expulsion forces, who really are just kids playing soldier, but this was not a ness like 1967.