Sunday, September 4, 2011

Guest Post - השבת אבידה


 (click picture to understand what the post is about...)

Dear Anonymous Lady;

You probably came to the yortzeit of the Satmar Rebbe, whose Ohel is in the background of this picture. I don't know you, but I'll take a wild guess that only a lady who is not used to this kind of head gear would 'lose' it upon leaving such a  place. I have seen your kind of peeps come from Queens, Flatbush and all over. I am sure that you are unaware that the Satmar Rebbe held your sheitel, your dress and your sheer stockings in utter contempt. You are also probably not aware that he held, Lehalacha, that if you heard your husband's kiddush in those thin stockings he and you were never yotzei. As a matter of fact every  Rosh Hashonah he announced before the Aron HaKodesh that he is not motzei with Shofar those women not wearing thick stockings. So  you came with your thin hose and a temp tichel to his grave to ask him to daven for you? Well, it's still there waiting for you, but I assume you're busy baking Challah with 40 other ladies, or you're busy filling out a form for The Vaad to give your name to Maran Rav Kanyevsky or Rav Eliyashov. Not to worry, those Satmars in their kindness will leave it there till next year, or the elements will claim it before you come by again.

By Yosef718

(the views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of the publisher of this blog.)


50 comments:

Anonymous said...

The real victory of the Satmar Rebbe only comes from his chulentization within the general haredi psyche as a catchall gadol. As great or unique as a gadol may be, they all get to dance together; R Chaim Kanievsky, R Shach, R Yoel and even (ybl"ch) the Rebbe for most people.

למה זה תשאל לשמי said...

What a mouthful!!! I can't figure out if the writer is being sarcastic or not.

money talks said...

the satmer rebbi understood people, he was extreme good hearted person when it came to do do a good deed to a fellow yid, dont mix apples and oranges.

Anonymous said...

For 9/11
A Jewish 9/11 DOcumentary
http://vimeo.com/28579943

Anonymous said...

Cute piecem but in all honesty, most gedolim have a following that reveres them but doesnt really keep their standards (chabad for sure, r chaim k says no shaving, r ovadia says no sheitel etc) yet it still works.

Their ahavas Yisroel supersedes all else.

Anonymous said...

tzig said:
"(the views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of the publisher of this blog.)"

are you being hacked ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no, I'm not being hacked

Anonymous said...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...
"no, I'm not being hacked"

oh from your disclaimer it seemed like it, just kidding
.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718

I don't think that Satmar Ruv meant all his hype,
The same as he did not buy the chumra of the Sanzer ruv that shietlech are literally Saar Beisha Erva, if yes, he would not tolerate neither a shitel with a hat, Frizet etc...
it all has Saar Beishe Erva.
Also what threat is it that he is not motzie women with Tekias Shofar, she is not suppose to hear even according to halacha.
According to the mishna berura there is no problem for women to go with no socks and for sure no problem togo with no stocking,
Reb Yosef,
I don't know if you wrote this letter or forwarding it from some site,

Anonymous said...

yosef said: "but I'll take a wild guess that only a lady who is not used to this kind of head gear would 'lose' it upon leaving such a place"

did you hear of רחב and her red her red thread/gear/flag! it may be there for the מרגלים shh!

gershon said...

Overly negative post, R'Yossel.
Do you think that you should not visit the burial site of R'Yosef Karo, in Tzfas, because according to his opinion Ashkenazi Jews meat is not very kosher???.Or that chodosh is ossur bechutz lo'oretz?

Anonymous said...

Gershon
good point

JJJ said...

"According to the mishna berura there is no problem for women to go with no socks and for sure no problem togo with no stocking"

Well, according to Rav Wosner, CC messed up

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n026.shtml

A similar dispute in understanding the Mishna Berura concerns women wearing
transparent stockings. Rav Wosner says the Mishna Berura misread his sources
while Rav Moshe says the psak of the Mishna Berura was correct.

Daniel Eidensohn

JJJ said...

JJJ is not Daniel Eidensohn

Anonymous said...

JJJ
"Well, according to Rav Wosner, CC messed up"
Does Rav wosner use that term Messed up?

Anonymous said...

JJJ said...

do yourself your family and klal yisruel a favor stop learning!

למשׂמאילים סמא דמותא

Lost in America said...

Whether all the so-called Litvishe Roshei-Yeshive with their many Hungarian talmidim admit to it or not the fact is that what The CC writes is the way it was in Der Lite and in Veis Rusland before the Churban.There are still some old Lubavitcher families whose women go by these rules and this has nothing to do with other tznius problems in CH.Adrabeh,this is the way their mothers dressed in der alter heim. Now there is a push for "single payer frumkeit"-the "single payer" being the Hungarian poskim in Bnei Brak and Brooklyn.I think there's something nice to be said for diversity.

Anonymous said...

JJJ said...
JJJ is not Daniel Eidensohn

sorry JJJ, Daniel Eidensohn אייך מיין איך

do yourself your family and klal yisruel a favor stop learning!

למשׂמאילים סמא דמותא

Anonymous said...

anon: "I think there's something nice to be said for diversity"

In this instant communication times diversity is out! that is a problem that goes 'both ways'.. we act like we are one!when its not like that, I heard that the SR z"l being ruv in the city of satmar which was a big ashkanaz city! with a chasidishe kehila the satmar ruv said two דרשׁות in ר"ה one in the city shul where he asked the woman/members to shave their head and wear wigs! an hour later in the chsidishe shul he asked the olam not to wear wigs!

JJJ said...

Daniel Eidensohn said that Rav Wosner said that the CC misread his sources, which in translation means he messed up. Does anyone know where the sources are for Rav Wosner and Rav Moshe?

Why the personal attack?

למשׂמאילים סמא דמותא

Fed Up In Peoria said...

Mi Ke'amckho Yisroel.

It is astonishing 66 years after the Holocaust we are filled with so much hate and lack of tolerance.
G-d gave us a land after wandering in the finstereh golus for 2,0000 years and we thank him by giving credit to Satan.

The streets are filled with barely clothed females and we criticize our women that they are not doing enough for tzniyus, stockings are not thick enough, skirts are too short. Do we need to cover the legs? Well not everyone agrees but who cares. lets take the extreme position.

Even when the youth will be running away and not looking back, we won't be reflective we will just blame it in the bogeyman of the day.

Anonymous said...

anon: "G-d gave us a land after wandering in the finstereh golus for 2,0000 years and we thank him by giving credit to Satan"

He gave it (or you stole it) either way if you feel its yours thank him anyway you want leave others out!

note, as mayor guliani said crime starts with minor thinks like squeegee man washing your car windows.

Anonymous said...

yosel you are so obsessed with satmar ruvs 70 socks
1) he never said it Rosh Hashanah,
he rather said it before kol nidrei once
2) he said that they are not yoitze kiddish
3) according to tzanzer ruv you are not yoitze kiddish if you go with a sheitel all together

YOU can’t just with one litzunes through away a halacha that you cannot recite a brucha in front of ervah
And I don’t understand from whom you are poking fun here from satmar ruv that said that without socks you cannot make a brucha
Or is it from this tzibruchene neshumah that came here to cry her heart out asking for a yeshiyah?

Zul der reboineh shel oilem helfen that ze zul huben gepoilt ales gits

Anonymous said...

By the way, Ha-Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach wrote that one should not force women to wear socks, and it is permissible to rely on the Mishnah Berurah. The book "Oro Shel Olam", p. 94. And also see there where Ha-Rav Shlomo Zalman says the same about Chabad women wearing Sheitels.

Mordechai Tzion

Anonymous said...

JJJ
"do yourself your family and klal yisruel a favor stop learning!

למשׂמאילים סמא דמותא"
I believe Hamoar Sheboi Yachziranoi Lemutov

Anonymous said...

Lost in ...
"The CC writes is the way it was in Der Lite and in Veis Rusland before the Churban."
the Mishneh Berura, particular in that halacha is talking cold halacha with no regional flavors and no anthropology

Anonymous said...

Anon
"and it is permissible to rely on the Mishnah Berurah. The book "Oro Shel Olam", p. 94"
this sefer has too much truth, thats why the family and the charidem dislike it
the truth hurts..

Anonymous said...

Anon
"3) according to tzanzer ruv you are not yoitze kiddish if you go with a sheitel all together"
Does sanzer ruv talk specific about Kidush,or that Shietel is a Erva.

Anonymous said...

Fed up in peoria
"Even when the youth will be running away and not looking back, we won't be reflective we will just blame it in the bogeyman of the day."
the youth that go OTD, is not the chumras... ask the askanim.

Anonymous said...

Dear anon

I did write this letter you can trust tzig on this one. You wrote:

“I don't think that Satmar Ruv meant all his hype”
It is not surprising, that in trying to finesse the -seemingly for you and your type [more on that later] -rough edges of the SR you engage in acrobatic reasoning on the clear halachic opinion of the SR.
[for the record to those who are nervous with my ref. to just “SR”; so here it is; Rabeini Hakudoish Rashkebehag R. Yoel Zy”a Zecher tzadik vekudoish lechaye huoilam habu, so when you see SR please fill in the above]
This is part of the bargain that the -mostly litvish/yeshivish/chasidic light- admirers of the SR have tried to strike: quote the SR and use his Torah when convenient, especially when in need to kick other gedolim who are not in the orbit of acceptable gedolim for them. But join in the conspiracy of silence or distortion of what the SR truly stood for. It even serves those Satmars who are very uncomfortable with the many caustic assertions SR may have had on Zionism, Halacha and Gedolim. So the whitewash serves many objectives.
I for one, think that from all factions in Satmar, the Benei Yoel are closest to the historical true SR. They are not embarrassed -neither do I think that any Satmar chusid should be- with the harsher views of SR, and to spread them and make them known -a la Moshe Goldberger’s seforim, with the choice juicer quotes of the SR, and their sources.
Your reference to the Mishnah Brurah is laughable. Do you think the SR respected the MB as too be mevatel his opinion to the CC? Check Shut Divrie Yoel and see how dismissive he is of the MB “derech” in psak. see here http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20289&st=&pgnum=58
and
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20289&st=&pgnum=59
and
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20289&st=&pgnum=60
Any body familiar with his style of writing sees this as a withering attack on the MB without even a “התנצלות במחכ”ת”.
By the way the Debrecener Rav and others, even the Chazon Ish strongly disagree with the Pri Megodim on whom the MB bases his psak. the DR also rules also that you are not yotzie with Kidush...
I am sure that you also think that when the SR said that speaking ivrit is worse than bowing down 60 times before an Avoda Zara, that he really didn’t mean it. The problem is, that the SR clearly repeated this assertion after emphasizing that he is not saying this as a guzma, it is what he holds leHalacha. But you can go on blithely believing that he didn’t really mean it.

[More to come … sources on SR shita on thin stockings, and did he really not want those women in his shul and to not motzei them on Rosh Hashana with shofar …]

Anonymous said...

Can someone PLEASE explain me what women wore in Europe before stockings were invented/introduced??

Fed Up In Peoria said...

"Anonymous said...

Fed up in peoria
"Even when the youth will be running away and not looking back, we won't be reflective we will just blame it in the bogeyman of the day."
the youth that go OTD, is not the chumras... ask the askanim"

so what is it? the internet?

who are the askanim?

Anonymous said...

Dear yosef718 or anon,

You would gladly change the worlds respect to SR to the imrei chayim z"l, well the IC does not have such nice words to quote him on yiddishkeit or just plain vertlech, therefore you dig all hype of SR
Therefore you poke fun of this nebechdige lady that needs a yeshiya

Btw what’s that lie of yours "that he repeated himself that speaking ivrit is worse than bowing down 60 times before an Avoda Zara" it is an outright lie from you he said it once here in BP for a specific reason and yes it was hype
He never said that it is NOT a GIZMA

Anonymous said...

stockings are as old as any garment, but ladies stockings became an halachic issue when dresses became shorter and stopped reaching the toe

Anonymous said...

anonymous of 06, 2011 4:19:00 PM,
actually, I am ignorant of the SR writing style but I see absolutely nothing disrespectful or dismissive about the t'shuvos you quote. Just don't see it at all. Maybe you can clarify.


Michoel

Anonymous said...

Anon
"well the IC does not have such nice words to quote him on yiddishkeit or just plain vertlech, therefore you dig all hype of SR"
I am no mouthpiece for the imrie chaim, but he has the sefer Likutie Imrie Chaim has deep chasidic vertlech for chasidishe yiden..
which today you have very little in Satmar.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Do you think the SR respected the MB as too be mevatel his opinion to the CC? Check Shut Divrie Yoel and see how dismissive he is of the MB “derech” in psak. see here http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20289&st=&pgnum=58"
I looked up the teshuva and I don't see any disrespect to the CC, he is writing the teshuva in a nice torah way.
He can not understand why the CC took a stand against the shulchan orech based on some achronim.
You blowing it out of proportion, especially, you have to understand, Satmar Ruv was already a Ruv before the Mishneh Berura was printed, he was not a generation apart.
But the whole teshuva makes little sense, he comes up with a pilpul on a tough Divrie Chaim,on Mokam Yesh Berosh for 2 tefilin, which is against halacha..
the Klausenburger Ruv also tried a answer from a different angle, but the question is still on...

a yid said...

peoria you make me fall asleep.

my mother went to satmer rebbi with my father, who gave 2 checks with huge amount even for this day n age, mother not knowing the custom, was there without socks just sandles, the rebbi did`nt even notice her feet dress code. he did not mention a word.

Fed Up In Peoria said...

"Satmar Ruv was already a Ruv before the Mishneh Berura was printed, he was not a generation apart."

Wrong

"peoria you make me fall asleep."

Peoria is relaxing

Anonymous said...

Peoria
When was the first volume MB printed?

Yosef718 said...

Anon you write:

“You are so obsessed with satmar ruvs 70 socks”

Cheap shot, when/how did you see me obsessed with SR socks psak? I happen to comply with his psak. I just accept that there are those who follow the MB. But the SR gave no such leeway. So I sure could scratch my head on those who have the temerity to go to his kever when he held that those women had no business being in shul at all. He specifically pointed out that curtailing this pirtza is more important than to do ‘kiruv’ on those women. [Carefully read the docs that I highlighted.]

BTW there are clear signs at the KJ cemetery that women with thin socks should not visit the SR’s grave site.

You write:

“He never said it Rosh Hashanah, he rather said it before kol nidrei once”

You are slightly correct he actually did say on Rosh Hashana see: http://bit.ly/oNkq2a and see: http://bit.ly/nxpGgt and that he is not motzei any women who have her own hair [unshaved – and showing?] http://bit.ly/nxpGgt But that should give you little support. He rules in Shu”t Divery Yoel [see: http://bit.ly/pC4bqY last 2 lines of first column] that revealed flesh is much worse than revealed hair and he also ruled that thin socks “are even worse than no socks at all”[see: http://bit.ly/oDaO2D].

You write:

“According to tzanzer ruv you are not yoitze kiddish if you go with a sheitel all together”

Therefore?

Ooops I get it. Bring me a pic of a tichel forgotten at the Tzanzer Ruv’s kever and I promise to write a similar post.

I don’t get your “litzunes” issue? In my private life I do try to follow this psak, as it is not only the SR shita. It is the view of most poskim. The issue here is when a woman chooses to ignore the vehemence of the SR in ‘enforcing’ his view. That approach is mostly unique to the SR, and the fact that most Yeshivish/Litvish/Chasidic-Light women who come to visit his grave are not aware of his adamant view of them, is a result of an ongoing conspiracy to present to the public a mollified/softer SR than he actually was.

The kind of responses here, explains why a few commentators here felt that my post is somewhat an attack on the SR c”v. There is not one such word or implication. There is only an uncomfortable feeling among those ‘Satmar light’ who are very uncomfortable with the SR’s seemingly rougher edges in his relation to those who disagreed or disobeyed his views. But if you are a Satmar chusid you should know that the Rebbe was not embarrassed or held back his views. These are things that he stood for. So why is the question always posed; “did he mean it?”

All his lifetime he fought this perception; just read the hakdama to Vayoel Moshe. I will leave it at that for now. But it’s a lie and a convenient invention to mollify his words by asserting “he didn’t mean it”.

I include in the conspiracy elements of the Aroni party. They could be divided into to two. Some contend and admit that Rav Aaron is not like the SR and that RA is milder in his approach, and say so openly. But some engage in distortion and mollification of what the SR stood for. I am linking also what the SR felt about Bais Yakov girls who learned ivrit, [a la Rav Aaron’s rebetzin], that “those girls are full of poisoness heresies and will poison their husbands”. [see: http://bit.ly/nadqQ0 and http://bit.ly/rlbtce] That is also the reason why I think the Benei Yoel have a better take at least in presenting the SR’s views. How the BY apply his words for our times is a different story altogether.

Dear Anon you write:

Btw what’s that lie of yours "that he repeated himself that speaking ivrit is worse than bowing down 60 times before an Avoda Zara" it is an outright lie from you he said it once here in BP for a specific reason and yes it was hype
He never said that it is NOT a GIZMA


Yosef 718

Yosef718 said...

Sorry I admit that it is a lie! Because he said “100 times”! [not “60” see http://bit.ly/q0krIr] so I was lying a bit there. But he did say clearly its “lehalacha” and he clearly cites sources and explains why it is worse than avoda zara. And he clearly writes this same thing [read: repeats it] in Vayoel Moshe that Ivrit is much more worse than Avoda Zara[see: http://bit.ly/nBT9HU]. So you just can’t accept that he “meant” it, even when he cites Chazal Rambam etc? But my dear friend he did ‘repeat’ it many times, and he ‘meant’ it.

PS: Tzig It seems for some Satmars, saying something once doesn’t count. How is it in Chabad, if the Rebbe said something just one time, do his Chasidim doubt and think; did he mean it? Does once count?

Fed Up In Peoria said...

Mishna Berura ("Clarified teachings") is an important and widely-used commentary, consisting of 6 volumes, on the Orach Chayim section of Rabbi Yosef Karo's digested compilation of practical Jewish Law, the Shulchan Aruch. It combines his own elucidations and differing opinions with those of other Aharonim (post-medieval authorities.) [As found in the book by Rabbi Moses M. Yoshor "The Chafetz Chaim" on page 603 the 1st volume was published in 1884; 2nd volume in 1886; 3rd volume in 1891; 4th volume in 1898; 5th volume in 1902; 6th volume in 1907.]


Rav Yoel Teitelbaum - The Satmarer Rebbe (1887 – 1979)

The last volume came out when the SR was 20

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718
"That is also the reason why I think the Benei Yoel have a better take at least in presenting the SR’s views. How the BY apply his words for our times is a different story altogether."
you are not correct, there were always 2 kind of people by him, The Mayer Lipshitz/ Lietner guys and the "Shvartze" and then the Yossel Ashkenazi/Lipa friedman a la Mosdois. He was always split between the 2 , but 99% Lipa Friedman won him against all his hype.
It is my observation he would be against the Bnie Yoel...evetough he had bnielyoelism in his body

Anonymous said...

yosef 718
By Galicianer/Ungarischer chasidim the word of the rebbe is usualy not reveded as the Leshoin Hazohov,
Since most the Rebbes in that region had a "Briete Shprach" except the last Belzer Ruv Z"l. but the Russian/ruzhiner/Poilisher as Ger, a word is a word

Anonymous said...

anon: "evetough he had bnielyoelism in his body"

how's the schnaps in 'your' body doing still a little left in you?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"how's the schnaps in 'your' body"
I am a AA Member no drink for along time

Tziki kedera said...

r shlomo z auerbacks son (r.a.d.a) said not to trust/print these books...they are full of miSTAKES...o trust/print these books...they are full of miSTAKES...

Dovid said...

What is it with the Hungarian obsession with what ladies wear??
What type of stockings, blah,blah....

This malady, B"H is not something that Chabad or the Litvishe suffer from.

And, YES, Yosef718,I"m addressing you.

One can accept an odom godol, without accepting every single opinion that he had, including viewing his resting place as a place where tefillos to Hashem are more accepted.

Anonymous said...

Tziki Kedarai
"r shlomo z auerbacks son (r.a.d.a) said not to trust/print these books...they are full of miSTAKES...o trust/print these books...they are full of miSTAKES..."
trust their are no mistakes, it is just inconvinent to publicize the truth in our day and age, I know for a fact that the new revised print of shemiras shabos kehilchoto, made some changes based on 1 of the so called "Mistake" books