Tzig way to go. Keep em coming. The oilam should chutch know that there is a major cover up by chassidim on what was the true daas of the early Talmidei HaMagid.
Yes! a ehrlicher Baal Eisek IS A HEILIGE ZACH. Der Heiligeh Rebbe zechisoi yugein uleini was a major proponent of this view point. Actually this was from the few points where Satmer wasnt Nishtatich Toras HaBaal Shem
you are up to something big, since you can see from the tone of the Nefesh Hachaim that he gives a rebuttal to this views, even he agrees with chasidim on some issues
True, when he talks about shuls that don't have even a set of shas, loy alaynu, and they don't see the point of learning, just getting warmed up. Also, it is interesting how he points out that the fact that the Talmud discusses laws and methods of trickery, obviously learning doesn't comport with their version of lishmah = dveykus. It seems that there was a strain of people who had disdain for the "chitzoynis" of Torah and preferred tehilim because it made them feel better.
'מאמרי אדמו"ר הזקן הקצרים' עמוד ש"י, שמפרש בצורה מעשית לבינונים (שעבורם התחבר ספר התניא ועליהם נאמר בתניא שזו מדת כל אדם): "ולמעשה לבינונים בתחילה צריך לידיעות התורה כולה ."ÌÈ„ÂÓÈÏ 'ÈÁ·Ó ‰Â·‚ ‰·‰‡‰ ÌÈ Â È·Ï ÈÎ ולמצות והגית וגם צריכים ליתן עת קבוע לבחי' האהבה the Alter Rebbe writes that this avoda that you can make yichudim with haMachlif Porah Bechamor, is not avodas bieninim ,it is only for Tzadikim, his views definitly differ with what reb usher stoliner said in his letter.He holds the same view on Haloas machshovas zoras that only a shotah (of the Beniie)will think that this avoda is related to him.
Wandering Jew The problem with certain people that they touch a eidele subject so fargrebt that sofo mi yeshurani. The animosity of satmar rov to all Rebbes since they were not on the same page brought him to say a statement that was not in line with his hanoge of Davening afer sof zman tefila, Firen Tish, Taking Kvitlech etc... He definitly was not against a statement of the Besht brought down in Meor Einem.
The story goes that after hearing that the freadika rebbe said the "der parah iz nisht a parah"because the torah doesnt talk about such mundane concepts Reb Aron Kotler said he is an apikores
Lakewooder, you are repeating that nonsense I heard 30 years ago, you are embarrassing Reb Aron by claiming he said it, all sifrie derush and Kabala are talking this language.
Also what makes you so sure that Reb Aron had the authority to label a Tzadik that had Mesiras Nefesh for yiddishkiet, Yeshivahs mikvoas as Avrahan Avinu Bedoiri ,and gave the deepest Biurim on Emuna Vedies based on his great father,Tzemach Tzedek, Alter Rebbe, into a Apikoras you have to be a idiot to repeat it.
... and after 2 bachurim died in Shnghai because Vaad Hachatsole did not want to wire them money because they are not bnei teire, who is R' Aharon Kotler????
Reb Yonasan Eibshitz in his Yares Devash vol 1 writes that a Tekana Becherem has to be done that all Avriechim should be supported for 5 years learning. it is probably the first source for the Kolel Yungerman concept. What do you think was the the Satmar Rov the nemesis for Kolel system, answer for this this reb Yonasan? since Reb Yonasan was a big source for him in his 3 oaths philosohy? plus I heard years ago some legend that the Yismach Moshe had some Neshoma connection with reb yonasan, Pilpul style, Komayes etc... thir is may be a excuse that then the marriage age was much younger. I would like to know if Prauge in that era with early signs of medernisim also had this custom.
My experience has been that Kolel yungehleit are the most eidel people we have in am yisroel. I"m surprised at the animosity here. Jealousy? Off course nothing is perfect.This is an old argument between Rabban Gamliel who only allowed people who were perfect inside and out and I forget who who allowed everybody in to yeshiva. A point that all the lomdim here are missing:One reason to learn Torah is to KNOW how to keep it. Learning in kolel for a certain time is almost a minimum to not be an "ein am ho'oretz chosid vein boor yerei cheit"
Yankel- indeed thats the way it should be (unless one forgets the nosien hatorah- refer to other comments or posts for more on that) but alot of the opposition can stem from looking at the bigger picture, is the persons own tzidkus always the most important thing?
I think what happened was that Hirshel, never really exposed to serious talmidei chachomim, suddenly got the shock of his life in Monsey, were you have to interact with other kreizen. Suddenly he sees that all those so called rabbonim from his theological neck of the woods are anything butt.They can't hold a candle to leaders and learned people in other communities. Vus teet mehn? You come up with a halb gebakeneh babbeh maaseh that learning is only for "yechidei segileh". Schoin, gepatert a maaseh!The other talmidei chachomim are just "klippehs", not even from "klippehs noigah" Lechaim, lechaim!
Shmerel said... "I think what happened was that Hirshel, never really exposed to serious talmidei chachomim, suddenly got the shock of his life in Monsey, were you have to interact with other kreizen. Suddenly he sees that all those so called rabbonim from his theological neck of the woods are anything butt.They can't hold a candle to leaders and learned people in other communities." Another symptom that the vantzen crisis has reached a new high.
29 comments:
רק אם מכוון לשם כך. נישט סטאם אזוי, ופשוט הוא
אטא דאס האט דער גאון זצ"ל געמיינט ווען ער האט לוחם געווען קעגן דער כת
וד"ל
Tzig way to go. Keep em coming. The oilam should chutch know that there is a major cover up by chassidim on what was the true daas of the early Talmidei HaMagid.
Yes! a ehrlicher Baal Eisek IS A HEILIGE ZACH. Der Heiligeh Rebbe zechisoi yugein uleini was a major proponent of this view point. Actually this was from the few points where Satmer wasnt Nishtatich Toras HaBaal Shem
Zalmele (toldos odam ??)
you are up to something big, since you can see from the tone of the Nefesh Hachaim that he gives a rebuttal to this views, even he agrees with chasidim on some issues
רמב"ם הלכות תלמוד תורה ג:י"א
Those who like passulling up other people can see the halacha before.
True, when he talks about shuls that don't have even a set of shas, loy alaynu, and they don't see the point of learning, just getting warmed up. Also, it is interesting how he points out that the fact that the Talmud discusses laws and methods of trickery, obviously learning doesn't comport with their version of lishmah = dveykus. It seems that there was a strain of people who had disdain for the "chitzoynis" of Torah and preferred tehilim because it made them feel better.
'מאמרי אדמו"ר הזקן הקצרים' עמוד ש"י, שמפרש בצורה מעשית לבינונים (שעבורם התחבר ספר
התניא ועליהם נאמר בתניא שזו מדת כל אדם): "ולמעשה לבינונים בתחילה צריך לידיעות התורה כולה
."ÌÈ„ÂÓÈÏ 'ÈÁ·Ó ‰Â·‚ ‰·‰‡‰ ÌÈ Â È·Ï ÈÎ ולמצות והגית וגם צריכים ליתן עת קבוע לבחי' האהבה
the Alter Rebbe writes that this avoda that you can make yichudim with haMachlif Porah Bechamor, is not avodas bieninim ,it is only for Tzadikim, his views definitly differ with what reb usher stoliner said in his letter.He holds the same view on Haloas machshovas zoras that only a shotah (of the Beniie)will think that this avoda is related to him.
Wandering Jew
The problem with certain people that they touch a eidele subject so fargrebt that sofo mi yeshurani.
The animosity of satmar rov to all Rebbes since they were not on the same page brought him to say a statement that was not in line with his hanoge of Davening afer sof zman tefila, Firen Tish, Taking Kvitlech etc... He definitly was not against a statement of the Besht brought down in Meor Einem.
The story goes that after hearing that the freadika rebbe said the "der parah iz nisht a parah"because the torah doesnt talk about such mundane concepts
Reb Aron Kotler said he is an apikores
Lakewooder,
I refer you to the instructions for commenting:
ביטע טראכטן פאר'ן קאמענטירן, און שרייבן בכבוד'דיג
Lakewooder,
you are repeating that nonsense I heard 30 years ago, you are embarrassing Reb Aron by claiming he said it, all sifrie derush and Kabala are talking this language.
Also what makes you so sure that Reb Aron had the authority to label a Tzadik that had Mesiras Nefesh for yiddishkiet, Yeshivahs mikvoas as Avrahan Avinu Bedoiri ,and gave the deepest Biurim on Emuna Vedies based on his great father,Tzemach Tzedek, Alter Rebbe, into a Apikoras you have to be a idiot to repeat it.
Lakewooder,
... and after 2 bachurim died in Shnghai because Vaad Hachatsole did not want to wire them money because they are not bnei teire, who is R' Aharon Kotler????
I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS THREAD TO BECOME A RE-HASH OF THE SHANGHAI SAGA. ALL FURTHER COMMENTS ON THAT SUBJECT WILL BE UNCEREMONIOUSLY DELETED.
Hirshel
you are coming to your senses.
Like Whatever
Reb Yonasan Eibshitz in his Yares Devash vol 1 writes that a Tekana Becherem has to be done that all Avriechim should be supported for 5 years learning. it is probably the first source for the Kolel Yungerman concept. What do you think was the the Satmar Rov the nemesis for Kolel system, answer for this this reb Yonasan? since Reb Yonasan was a big source for him in his 3 oaths philosohy? plus I heard years ago some legend that the Yismach Moshe had some Neshoma connection with reb yonasan, Pilpul style, Komayes etc...
thir is may be a excuse that then the marriage age was much younger. I would like to know if Prauge in that era with early signs of medernisim also had this custom.
My experience has been that Kolel yungehleit are the most eidel people we have in am yisroel.
I"m surprised at the animosity here.
Jealousy?
Off course nothing is perfect.This is an old argument between Rabban Gamliel who only allowed people who were perfect inside and out and I forget who who allowed everybody in to yeshiva.
A point that all the lomdim here are missing:One reason to learn Torah is to KNOW how to keep it.
Learning in kolel for a certain time is almost a minimum to not be an "ein am ho'oretz chosid vein boor yerei cheit"
RY mentions that they were getting married at 16, which means learning until about 21.
Yankel- indeed thats the way it should be
(unless one forgets the nosien hatorah- refer to other comments or posts for more on that)
but alot of the opposition can stem from looking at the bigger picture, is the persons own tzidkus always the most important thing?
Anon,
did you see it inside , because I remember seeing it years ago, I will check it tonite,what derush is it?
thanks
I REPEAT: I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS THREAD TO BECOME A RE-HASH OF THE SHANGHAI SAGA. ALL FURTHER COMMENTS ON THAT SUBJECT WILL BE UNCEREMONIOUSLY DELETED.
I REPEAT: I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS THREAD TO BECOME A RE-HASH OF THE SHANGHAI SAGA. ALL FURTHER COMMENTS ON THAT SUBJECT WILL BE UNCEREMONIOUSLY DELETED.
FERD.
Why do you deny Jews an outlet?
go outlet somewhere else.
Jews have plenty of chances here at other times.
Ferd
on the west side higway by 145 st their is beautiful water filtration for the cities sewer systems, take your nonsense their.
I think what happened was that Hirshel, never really exposed to serious talmidei chachomim, suddenly got the shock of his life in Monsey, were you have to interact with other kreizen.
Suddenly he sees that all those so called rabbonim from his theological neck of the woods are anything butt.They can't hold a candle to leaders and learned people in other communities.
Vus teet mehn?
You come up with a halb gebakeneh babbeh maaseh that learning is only for "yechidei segileh".
Schoin, gepatert a maaseh!The other talmidei chachomim are just "klippehs", not even from "klippehs noigah"
Lechaim, lechaim!
Shmerel
it seems that you said Lechaim before you started typing
Shmerel said...
"I think what happened was that Hirshel, never really exposed to serious talmidei chachomim, suddenly got the shock of his life in Monsey, were you have to interact with other kreizen.
Suddenly he sees that all those so called rabbonim from his theological neck of the woods are anything butt.They can't hold a candle to leaders and learned people in other communities."
Another symptom that the vantzen crisis has reached a new high.
"Ferd
on the west side higway by 145 st their is beautiful water filtration for the cities sewer systems, take your nonsense their."
I should go there on shlichus?
Anon3
GIT GEZUGT
Enough with the hate
Git shabbos
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