Friday, April 29, 2011

Skverrer Folklore - Oops, maybe it wasn't so...


Column "בלשון חסידים" the 4th paragraph, is the focus of our post today. I've heard this "story" ever since I was a young lad in cheder - that the Skverrer Tzaddikim had the Tanya bound from both sides, since it was "too holy" to learn, but "too holy" not to have in the bookshelf. I'm not sure what I supposed to do with that piece of info, but that was the story. Now it seems like the Skverrer Chassidim made the "fatal mistake" (as the reader who sent this to me called it) of actually printing this for all to see. I suppose it makes them look bad for being so "closed-minded?" That they're so afraid of the Tanya that they need to control their urges and bind it all around.


But it seems like the legend is not for all to see and enjoy. Once word got out some people started getting hot around the collar, it seems. The הכחשה in the column "קוראים כותבים" is of an interesting variety. Not that they didn't bind the sefer haTanya from both sides, it's just that Reb Yankev Yosef never showed it to them, since he had no such חפצים from his zeide Reb Itzikel Skverrer... Then again; maybe it was his own sefer haTanya that he showed them, not his zeides, so we may have not saved ourselves by publishing the "clarification" after all, because Skver still comes out looking bad for binding a sefer that they disagree with.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

I was shocked lately that I saw in a Shmuess of the Rachmistrivker Rebbe of BP, That he quotes the Alte Rebbe in sefer Tanya.Even tough he was and is a very strong chosid of his FIL RYY,and the chosid Moshe Batlan, they were was his mentor.In his years in Skever,when he served as Menahel Hayeshivah, he was very involved to enforce the ironclad customs and shenanigans of the Regime, since he knew personally Daas Elyon of the Rebbe the Shver.
I also saw in a different Shmuess from him, that the ideal thing would be, not to learn Tanya.
We need to know if we have a chernobelogist in the Tzig farm,who can explain the mixed messages.

Chaim Shia said...

Seems the Tzig hates Skver.Always mocking them.I guess he feels they were not "mekabel malchus" or maybe they don't say kappitel kuf yud in tehillim every day?

curious said...

What is Skverrer Hassides?Anything beyond endless weddings, shtivel,and fundraising?I know they learn but they learn in Lakewood and YU,too.Is it the warm and fuzzy feeling you get when the Rebbe looks at you?What other books have earned the " Better hoif and gardens" "double-bound" seal of approval?Perhaps a stray copy of Likutei Moharan?
sincerely,
Curious

Anonymous said...

Chaim Shia
;Chabad does not compete with Skver, on Kabules Hamalches,Skver, has their own issues with enforcing the Malchus thru the Ramapo police, it leaked to the foreign media on Utube.
Hirshel got some good piece on a old 150 year wornout grudge that RYY held on , and I appreciate that he brought it to light.

Anonymous said...

did RYY of Hilcrest have a shulchan orech with a Biur Hagr'o? if yes, how did he treat it?

Anonymous said...

As a kid I heard many times from a close family member of mines, a Chosid from the Skverer in his pre USA days,that the old Skverer said that he would of bound the Tanya, but he did not do it, because he was influenced by some Chabadnik melamed.

Anonymous said...

All Tanya aside,
After reading the other pieces, as not passing the Matzoh thru a kitchen, etc...
on a scale 1 to10,who had more chumras?
Skver or Brisker Ruv

Anonymous said...

If you go into the Skverer Rebbes room in NS where he gives sholom and look in the bookcase you will see a Tanya and a Torah Or in the bookcase

Anonymous said...

Did anyone read the Hamodia 100 year celebratory magazine this Pesach ?

They span the past hundred years through the accomplishments of both Torah Jewry and secular advancements.

Anyone notice that a certain someone isn't mentioned at all up until his passing in 1994,and even then, with a mere blurb ?

There was more coverage on obscure school teachers/ principals and the like.

pitputim said...

What exactly don't they like about Tanya?
Isaac Balbin

Anonymous said...

they dont mention nobody untill their passing,
But 1 think is foolish and self serving, Moshe Sherrer saved American Yiddiskiet with no solid proof to back up their claim

Anonymous said...

Someone wrote a comment on SHABBOS and Hershel let it thru ????

How come ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

he lives in Australia, there it was Motzoei Shabbos already.

Anonymous said...

Issac
RYY of Skver felt for some odd reason to inherit the anti chabad from Reb Avrohom Kalisker. Other members of that branched out Rebishe family, were over with all this animosities. On the other he used the AR for his posek, even some Pesokim of the AR sidur he incorporated.

Anonymous said...

which comment is from Shabbos?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"you will see a Tanya and a Torah Or in the bookcase"
Shocking,
did u see it?

Anonymous said...

To answer the question,....why do they reject our messiah.....

Simple he may have been the closest but he did not fit the criteria...

Why don't they believe Tanya...in short everyone holds of Tanya in the chassidish world but like the shitas Arizal on Tefilin of Rashi and Rabeinu Tam, being both Halacha Lemoshe Misinai.... it is a question of how best to divide your time and Tanya is not put above other sefarim like Shulchan Aruch and Gemara Rashi Tosfos..

Sorry Mr Baal Teshuva but until the Rashab, Tanya was not learnt daily by Balabatim and probably not even by yehsivah bochrim....

The Rashab formalised the learning of chasidus chabad, both in what is to be learnt and how much time per day....in the end based on goyishe sourced education criteria (v'dal).

You cannot blame other chasidim for not following the radical changes made by the (then) dor shvii who was brilliant in setting up the seder for limud chasidus but sadly ignored by his own chassidim in his opinions on the medina...

Can someone explain why the Rebbe didn't send shluchim on Tahaluca to reform ?



Oh I forgot Reb Yoel Kahn was far smarter and superior in havana in rishonim than the Rashab, who was a major source for sefer Vyoel Moshe, just ask R' Mendel Vechter.

Can anyone post the letter of R' Yoel to R' Mendel Vechter. I don't remember it being convincing other than on an emotional basis that today is different and we must be mekarev other yidden even if it is based on sheker...

Isaac Balbin said...

Anonymous:
What precisely is "goyishe sourced education criteria" and is there any type that SHOULD be used? Chochma BaGoyim?

How can you ask why the LR didn't send people on Tahalucha to reform, there is a Takono not to go in there. I understand he was also against having a chabad presence close to the Olympic games because the Yevonim idolised the body.

On Vyoel Moshe, you don't need to go into these Rabonim, the invective from the last Rebbe was more moderate than his father-in-law who was more moderate than his father. What you forget, and I can understand you being in a time warp if you wear a fur hat and think you are still in medieval Poland/Hungary/Russia, is that times have changed and Hakadosh Baruch Hu lives in these times too. Some of us allow our girls to learn Torah Shebiksav AND Torah SheBaal Peh despite the fact that in prior times they didn't.

Was R' Yisroel Salanter a reformist, sure he was.
Was R' Yechiel Ya'akov Weinberg a reformer, sure he was.
Was the Chafetz Chaim? Sure he was.
ad nauseum.

Why? The world changes and Torah allows us to adapt to the world as long as we stay within the Daled Amos Shel Halocho.

If you want to tell me which HALOCHO is being changed as a result of the Rashab/Rayatz/LR
or indeed others, then go ahead. I'm all ears.

PS. I was the one who posted "on shabbos". I'm doing so today as well according to the Chazon Ish :-) so if you hold from him, you'd better tell Hirshel to cancel this comment too.

Anonymous said...

I heard that the Skverer Rebbe learned chasidus chabad in his youth and was attracted to it but his father RYY found out and made him stop. Anyone hear this as well

Anonymous said...

Isaac, could they not possibly have the same hurdles to learning tanya that you have?

Anonymous said...

The criteria set by the Rebbe Rashab for learning chassidus each day was based on the period required by the government that yeshivos learn secular studies each day.

He said if that is how much secular studies the government requires, that is the minimum time period each bochur should study chassidus.


Can anyone verify this ?

Anonymous said...

Regarding girls learning torah shebaal peh, there is a famous teshuvas Reb Moshe that the ban is still in full force in our times.

I guess the Rebbe had a psak fakert....Reb Moshe went to Eretz Yisrael, but the Rebbe demanded a psak that he may return to America.

If it was only a psak, why did he let everyone else go ?

Was he saying that Moshiach has different halochos than the rest of klal yisrael ?

Anonymous said...

' Was he saying that Moshiach has different halochos than the rest of klal yisrael ? '

Of course ! ..... Yilchom milchemes Hashem, vikabaitz nidchei Yisroel, vch'u vda'l.

Anonymous said...

sidenote: some time in the early 60's, the Rebbe went to visit his mother in the hospital. At the time, RYY was in the same facility, and the Rebbe visited him as well. This may be the only instance of the Rebbe doing a bikkur choilim outside of his immediate family. U can argue it was convenient, he was there, but he did it regardless of the tanya issue, which BTW was well known in learned chabad circles.

Anonymous said...

wow he did bikur cholim, im sure he put on tefilin too that day...

Anonymous said...

Maybe the Rebbe went to put tefilin on RYY...

pitputim said...

Anonymous:
They might have but that would be a scary thought. I'm not Hungarian.

Isaac Balbin

Anonymous said...

Anon
"but until the Rashab, Tanya was not learnt daily by Balabatim and probably not even by yehsivah bochrim...."
is it chabad that you claim this facts? or in Ratzkiva hungary?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"in the end based on goyishe sourced education criteria (v'dal)."
are all the Sugyas that were learned in Pressburgh, from the cucriculum style in University of Vienna? (v'dal)

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Can someone explain why the Rebbe didn't send shluchim on Tahaluca to reform ?"
all the thousands of Batie Chabad are 24/7 Taluchas against Reform? for the Jews of Willi of the former Red Shul on Clymer or the white shul on Hewes their is only talucha on the 7th of Pesach.Since they were ignored by the Manhig Hadoir of Willi, he was obssesed with some pool in some country (with no name)3000 miles away from those shuls,by the borders of Egypt/Lebanon

Anonymous said...

Anon
"If it was only a psak, why did he let everyone else go ?"
for the same reason he wore more pair Tefilins then the popular, two, he was machmir on certain things for himself.

Anonymous said...

Anon
" but sadly ignored by his own chassidim in his opinions on the medina..."
You think the Rebbe is obligated to fight Napeloen and the French too, like the Alter Rebbe?
How about fighting Dr. Lilenthal and the Haskala, as the Tzemach Tzedek?

Anonymous said...

For all the anti-hungarians out there

The Satmar Rebbe could learn Tanya better than R' Yoel Kahn or whoever else you wanted.

Only in Chabad, rather than using yiddishkeit to bring people to learn Tanya, Tanya has become little more than a tool of getting people in to Chabad.

Farher the average Chabad baal habos and you will see he has no idea what the Tanya is about. He can do little more than parrot off some catch phrases and some quotes here and there.

Still not so sure what was wrong with Purim in Satmar, in Chabad it is a mitzvah to be mevaze talmidei chachamim berabim.....starting from the Rebbe down....

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The Satmar Rebbe could learn Tanya better than R' Yoel Kahn or whoever else you wanted."
you know? or you believe?
Satmar Ruv was not into believing emunas tefielas

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Tanya has become little more than a tool of getting people in to Chabad."
is Tanya not part of Yiddishkiet? if not, how did the Satmar Ruv learn a sefer that is not part of Yiddishkiet.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Farher the average Chabad baal habos and you will see he has no idea what the Tanya is about"
he never learned it in Yeshivah? ( I saw lately a other anti chabadnik on tis site that all they do in Chabad yeshivahs, is learning Tanya, can you all basher make a meeting and fight with one voice)
He does not say even Chitas?

Anonymous said...

anon
"in Chabad it is a mitzvah to be mevaze talmidei chachamim berabim"
a Mitzva? or a Reshus?

Anonymous said...

anon
""The Satmar Rebbe could learn Tanya better than R' Yoel Kahn or whoever else you wanted."
Did he know Zevuchim better then Brisker Ruv??

Anonymous said...

"Did he know Zevuchim better then Brisker Ruv??"

you didnt 'farher' brisker ruv or satmar ruv, look in the thosands of cudishim al hatora and al sigyus hashas from satmar ruv and it seems to me he knew enough to be a goan a rebbe and a manhig yisroel!

anti tzeigy said...

tziggy you are the manifestation of an am haaretz proving his ignorence

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anti-tzeigy


what big lomdus did I not get here???

Anonymous said...

"Did he know Zevuchim better then Brisker Ruv??"

story: reb tzudig hakohen from lublin was a talmud from the izbitzer (one of his many seforim was a 1000 page sefer on kudishim) one asked him why is he a talmud from izbitz when 'the world' thinks he can learn more then his rebbe? he answered: 2 tanoim have a machlokis and the gemorah brings one or two lines on what their machlokes is based,
than comes the talmidim the reshonim upto the achronim trying to explain in 1000’s of words what the machlok is
will that make them any bigger than the tana? Of course not, so he concluded just because I can ‘mefalpel’ talk/write
more than my rebbe does that make me any bigger?. Think of the moral relevent to our dor !!!

bobov chusid said...

i"m not shocked at all, there is almost no document of skver pre ww1, as if it did not exsist, today they write as if who knows what it was, skver chassidim of today 95 percent come from hungary or have their roots in belz.

speaking of belz a very run down muddy swampy tiny vilage next to lvov (lemberg), the primitive local poor people would not eat apples on pesach, why? because they went crazy when they saw the apple pits that are idedtical to wheat, therefor the apple became chametz... do i need to say more?

these tiny towns peasant grew up very small minded, everything that they were told, they believed without thinking.

bobov in the otherhand one of the bigger cities, was chassidish but did not go fanatic, to except every story you were fed.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"look in the thosands of cudishim al hatora"
every Dick and harry has today volumes al hatorah, Reb Shlomele bobover will have more volumes, once they will print all his torah

Anonymous said...

anon
"al sigyus hashas from satmar ruv"
If you compare the satmar ruvs Chidushie sugyas to the Brisker Ruv, then you never touched the Kliamke of Brisk.

Anonymous said...

Bobov Chusid
"bobov in the otherhand one of the bigger cities, was chassidish but did not go fanatic, to except every story you were fed."
between Reb Shlmele the 2nd and his handsome son RBZ the 2nd, we have more primitive Baba Masious then all chassidus combined.

greenie son said...

Ten things we love about Satmer:
1.Aidel,basheiden and non-violent.
2. Delicious world-class corned beef and pickled tongue.
3. satmer historians prove Zionists caused the tsunami in Japan.
4.Gourmet grade oils and fats for gribbenish un gehakte leber.
5.All disputes settled without going to the goyishe "jurdges."
6.Kiryat Joel scientists discover "glubal" warming due to endless prattling by Israelis in non-language known as Eevreet.
7.Learn Tanya all day and teach it to the "other" Reb Yoel.
8. Satmer scientists prove quantum theory of particle physics by having same yahrtzeit sudeh for same nifter simultaneously in two places at same time.
9. the Yid, the Blatt, the Neis Baricht...
10. Eliezer Epstein,echod harabonim,echod haam,fun do un dort...

Anonymous said...

greenie son said...
Ten things we love about Satmer:
1.Aidel,basheiden and non-violent. – 90% ARE, THE REST ARE LIKE BELZ,VIZNITZ,GER,PONOVITZ..
2. Delicious world-class corned beef and pickled tongue. –YOMTOV ONLY!
3. satmer historians prove Zionists caused the tsunami in Japan. ALSO THAT YOU’RE AN IDOT!
4.Gourmet grade oils and fats for gribbenish un gehakte leber. SO ‘YOU’ STEW IN THE SHMALTZ!
5.All disputes settled without going to the goyishe "jurdges." NO DISPUTES WAS EVER SETTLED YET!
6.Kiryat Joel scientists discover "glubal" warming due to endless prattling by Israelis in non-language known as Eevreet. LEARN HOW TO SPELL..SCHMUCK!
7.Learn Tanya all day and teach it to the "other" Reb Yoel. IS THIS A JOKE?
8. Satmer scientists prove quantum theory of particle physics by having same yahrtzeit sudeh for same nifter simultaneously in two places at same time. KEIN YIRBI!
9. the Yid, the Blatt, the Neis Baricht... I’M GLAD SOMEONE READS IT
10. Eliezer Epstein,echod harabonim,echod haam,fun do un dort... I DON’T READ KABALA!

Anonymous said...

"every Dick and harry has today volumes"

are u harry or dick?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
There is a appeal in Satmar shuls, for the English translation of the Vayoel Moshe. I think you should stretch out your global reach and help that important endeavor.
It will bring the Moshiach, mamesh mamesh,plus help global warming.
I heard that Ossama bin Laden left some funds in his will for this important work, but it is not enough, plus his funds are currently frozen, and they did not find a way to kasher it yet....
They dont want to subcontract to Artscroll, since Artscroll is using Blue cover (Deklech) that is 50% Zionist.
Hirshel, don't lose out on this historic opportunity.

Anonymous said...

I asked a skverer friend of mine, and he distinctly remembers the story as Reb YY Skverer z"l being by Reb Yoelish z"l and noticing the LIkutei Maharan on the table, asked him if he learns it. He answered: "Yes, what about you?" To which the Skverer answered the line about it being bound inside and out. Is it possible there's a mistake?

Anonymous said...

Skvere's greatest gift to Yidden and Yiddishkeit lives in Airmont and has a Chabad mashpia giving shiurim and helping to run the show at his shul.