Tuesday, December 3, 2013

זיכרונות שסיפר הגאון ר' דוד משה ליברמן שליט"א אב"ד ק"ק שומרי הדת אנטווערפן יצ"ו בשבת שבע-ברכות של נכדיו שיחיו

Rabbi D.M Lieberman שליט"א is a Rov who demands respect. Not by requesting it; it's his knowledge and his achievements that demand it for him. His background makes him somewhat unique; a Talmid of Heide Yeshiva, BMG and Lubavitch. In Rabbonus it's been Chicago, Detroit and since 5740 Antwerp. In his 65+ years of public service he's accomplished much, but what may be his greatest accomplishment is forcing the Machzikei HaDas  (Antwerp-Kreiswirth) community to recognize and honor him... I cannot tell you what he's referring to about the Chicago politics... Here are some of his zichraynes...























 נולדתי בגרמניה. משפחתי מגליציה, היו "גאליציאנער חסידים" (רופשיץ וכד'). עזבנו את גרמניה כשהייתי תינוק בן שנה לאנטוורפן. בגיל עשר למדתי בהיידע אצל "א טעלזער ראש ישיבה". חמש שנים למדתי בישיבה. פגשתי שם את ר' אפרים וולף (לימים מנכ"ל הישיבות תומכי תמימים בארה"ק) וגם את אביו שאז כבר היגרו מגרמניה להולנד. במלחמה הגעתי עם אימא לצרפת למחנה ריכוז (לא כמו המחנות בגרמניה, יותר קל). אימא נשלחה לאושוויץ (הצרפתים שלחו אותם – כל זמן שצרפת לא נכבשה לגמרי תחת הנאצים, הצרפתים שתפו פעולה ושלחו יהודים למחנות. אחרי הכיבוש, כבר לא שלחו יהודים). אבא היה באנגליה בתקופת המלחמה. אחרי חצי שנה, ברחתי מהמחנה לדוד שלי, אח אימי, שגר בצרפת. שמעתי שיש ישיבה במרסיי וכך הגעתי לר' זלמן שניאורסאהן. הייתי כל הזמן צמוד אליו, יותר מהאחרים. הוא חייב אותנו ללמוד חסידות למרות שלא רצינו, זה היה בשבילנו דבר חדש. היה שם א' רובינסקי, מצרפת, מאוד מוכשר שלמד חזק חסידות, הוא נשלח אז יחד עם 23 חבר'ה למחנות. לילה קודם הייתי איתם באותו מקום היכן שתפסו אותם (20 חבר'ה עם 3-4 מבוגרים). היינו בחדר שאכסנו בו חביות יין והיה לו פתח לחדר של ר"ז. פעם הגיעו הגרמנים לבית ושמענו כיצד הם מנסים לפתוח את החדר שלנו ור"ז מסיח את דעתם מאתנו. הוא ממש פעל ועשה רבות לשמור עלינו ולהציל אותנו. לאן שר"ז הלך הוא לקח את הספרייה אתו, הייתה לו ספרייה גדולה, כך היו לנו ספרים. נסענו הרבה. פעמים רבות בדרך עצרו אותנו הצרפתים, אך כאמור בסיום המלחמה כבר לא שלחו יהודים למחנות השמדה. ובניסים, הגרמנים – שגם היו בדרכים – לא עצרו אותנו.

 הגעתי לניו יורק בתש"ו לפני פסח. נכנסתי להרבי הקודם נ"ע למסור לו ד"ש מר"ז, אמר שכבר שמע ד"ש... ("ר' זלמן היה חסיד של הרבי הקודם"). סיפרתי שאני נוסע ללייקווד, וחייך... הרבי זי"ע התעניין אצלנו האם יש לנו מקום להתאכסן וכו'. למעשה הייתי בפסח עם אחי אצל הרב יצחק הוטנר. בלייקווד היו 35 בחורים, בערך כך ב-770 – אולי ב-770 קצת יותר. בפורים ביקשתי לנסוע ל-770 ואמר לי הגרא"ק שאשאר בישיבה. בסוף נסעתי. למד איתי שם שלמה קרליבך – ומאז נשאר קשר, בא לבקרני בשיקאגו וכו'. הוא מעולם לא היה "תלמיד" ב-770. אחיו רא"ח לא היה תלמיד בלייקווד. בתש"ז נכנסתי ליחידות להרבי הריי"צ ואמרתי שאני רוצה לעבור ל-770 "כי הלימוד שלי לא מתאים לשם". שאל: ומי יודע אם הלימוד כאן מתאים? בכל מקרה נכנסתי ללמוד בישיבה. כתבתי להגרא"ק שאני עוזב ולא ענה לי. ר' זלמן ש"ס סיפר לי שאמר לו הרבי הקודם שהפנים שלי נחקקו אצלו. פעם כתבתי שאני רוצה ללמוד אנגלית, ושלשם כך זקוקים ל"מסירה ונתינה". כתב שאעשה זאת "בשביל לקרב את הנוער". המכתב אצל בני. בתקופה שלמדתי ב-770 כמה פעמים הרבי זי"ע נכנס ל'זאל' ודיברתי אתו בלימוד. אני זוכר פעם אחת ששוחחנו על הרמב"ם שהנוצרים והמוסלמים מיישרם דרך למלך המשיח. ופקפקתי בפניו על ייחוס הדברים לרמב"ם. אולם סבר בתוקף שזה מהרמב"ם. בתש"ט נקראתי ליחידות (מן הסתם ע"י רמ"ל ראדשטיין) ואמר לי לנסוע לשיקאגו ל"בני ראובן" (היו שם כמה בתי כנסת נוסח האר"י). זה היה מתאים מבחינת "פאליטיק". כי היה שם ר"ז, וכל מי שהגיע לשם היה הוא "בולע אותו". לי, בגלל קרבתי, לא יכול היה לעשות זאת... הייתי כותב משם מכתבים לרבי וגם לחברים. היחיד שהחזיר לי תמיד תשובה, היה הרבי, ואם לא החזיר, הייתה סיבה... כמה שנים קודם כבר נשלחו בחורים לכל ארה"ב לפתוח ישיבות וכך הצילו את היהדות וכו'. שמעתי מתלמיד של רש"פ מנדלוביץ ששמע את רבו מתבטא "אם חב"ד יכולים, אנחנו יכולים". ואז פתחו את "תורה ומסורה". חמשה פעמים הייתי ביחידות אצל הרבי הקודם. היחידות האחרונה הייתה למחרת י"ט כסלו תש"י. פעם (האחרונה) הייתה לי יחידות שדיבר מוסר והיה מעין רוח הקודש, ובסוף התאמץ לומר ברכה. בי' שבט הגענו ללווי' (פעם ראשונה שנסעתי במטוס). מיד נכנסתי לרבי זי"ע להיפרד, לשאול משהו, בכלל היה עונה בפשטות לכל השאלות. קיבלתי "יורה יורה" מהגרמ"פ. כמה פעמים עורר אותי הרבי זי"ע לקבל גם "ידין ידין" ולא עשיתי. פעם התבטא "איך זע אז ס'איז דיר שווער צו פאלגן". וזה אמת... אבל קיבלתי "יורה יורה ידין ידין" מהרב גוסטמאן. הרבי הסכים שאסע לאנטוורפן.

76 comments:

Anonymous said...

That RZShS was "a chosid of the Previous Rebbe" (an apparent jibe that he was not [as] mekusher to the Rebbe ZYA) - while true, does not reflect that they (Friedike Rebbe & RZSh) too had their different ways - as can be attested by their different attitudes towards dealing with European (esp. French) Jewry during & after the war, vekm"l.

REChK did learn in Lakewood. It is just that he left early on, so by the time RDML arrived the former was gone.

Also, while true that RShK did not learn in 770 as an official tomim - yet when he finished Lakewood he did spend time learning in 770. His chavrusa in 770 then was RYLG (yes, Reb Leibel G - heard this from him). In Tof Shin Tes, after the RY RYG left for Eretz Hakodesh & 770 was looking for a new RY, & all those they tried out didn't make the cut, i.e. no one survived the opshluging of the bochurim (including RBTz! = Rav Berish Tzukerman who settled shortly beforehand in Buffalo) - the bochurim were seriously considering appointing one of the "eltere bochurim" from 770 as a RY. Choice #1 was RShK! But they decided to give one more try with an outsider, who was none other than RYP, who with his chasidisher chayes & Poilishe sharfkayt won the bochurim over (- heard all this from RYLG).

--ZIY

yossel said...

interesting.i never knew he learned in bmg.i remember his brother, though i have not seen him in many years.he lived in boro park and fixed appliances. he would go and learn in novardok on 49 st. i don't think the brother had a lubavitcher shaychus. he did not have a beard.
any more of these zichronos?
i think his son learned in telz, chicago ??
he is a shliach in ashkelon,i think.

yossel said...

some history about the yeshiva in heideh http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/chinuch/mosdot/ets1-2.htm

yossel said...

may i ask who got married?

Marshoo said...

the great shlomele was never a talmid of 770,
according to Rav Liberman

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Ziy: Rav Gustman first started his own Yeshiva in CH. Only years later did he go to EY.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I believe it was his daughter Chitrik's daughter.

schneur said...

Prior to 1945 RSZS was very close to the 6th Rebbe. After the war there seems to have been some cooling of the relationship . It may have been connected with Gorodetsky's appointment as director of European operations.Perhaps the Rashag had something to do with it.
Bere Gourary told me that his father regarded RSZS as a Europesher chassidisher rav fun alten cheder but even so was not at all close to him(at least after 1945) He said more which I can not print.As far as the last rebbe goes there seems to have been mutual dislike after 1950.
It is clear from conversations I have had with talmidim(several of whom were also learning in 770) of Shevat Yehuda SYRIT that RSZS did not like the 7th Rebbe. He even floated his candidacy for the nesius in 1950.
And the Rebbe publically at a hisvaadus in 770 blasted RSZS for referring to himself as Gran rabin (a title many French rabbis used) and calling the 6th rebbe rabin ...RSZS was not offered a position in the network of Chabad mosdos and even went back to France for a time because of parnosseh reasons. His son RSBS although loyal to Chabad derech hachaim became a personal chasid of the Bobover rebbe R. Shlomo Halberstam(who it seems never visited 770 either) and attended the tisch there regularly.This fact was confirmed by the chadban of the Bobover Rebbe the Bikovsker rebbe Rav YD Goldberger of BP in a conversation with me.
Rabbi Zalman Schneersohn was a most interesting personality and I understand his grandchildren are preparing a biography of him.

Not a Harry said...

Wasn't it amiel later from tel aviv that split the community into 2 Kenilworth?

Alte chosid said...

Schenur
" He even floated his candidacy for the nesius in 1950."
as the story goes He dreamed, but the chasidim didnt dream

duest said...

leibel groner ahin leabel groner aher (since when is everything leibel groner said keilui torah mi'sinai? and far from it, as is known)

here are some facts:

gustman did not leave till after yud shvat.

gustman did not go to israel til many years later.

this notion that some other roshei yeshivois (including according to his claim tzukerman, or some others that were floated around, were not good enough, but pikarsky was, is a gelechter, and bochurim were making fun of him (or more his derech halimud) from day one. i heard this from people who learned there in the yuds.

Alte chosid said...

Schneur
" His son RSBS although loyal to Chabad derech hachaim became a personal chasid of the Bobover rebbe R. Shlomo Halberstam"
I guess the real chabadnik saw in the old Bobover as the Real Chabad. since he was a einikel, and knew beautiful (Melava Demalke) stories of the alte rebbe, of Krecmes, Pickles(Ugerkes) Herring. Its ironic...

Tanchum Suniker said...

Schneur
"who it seems never visited 770 either"
He visited by the FR, as his son the current Rebbe RB"Z said by the shiva..
He could not visit the Rebbe, a rebbe with a Bent Down....is no Rebbe by us Bobovers.We can forgive not having Strokes on the Zidens and the PJ's, but a bemd down....

guest said...

the rebbe forgave reb zalman,
and in the end he did many many good things, not just during the war, but afterwards also.

also if i am not mistaken (one has to ask around), i was told that the rebbe went to his levaye, though i may be wrong.

shvietzer said...

Is he the Rav? or shiff?

Superintendant Chalmers said...

Why is the "Telzer Rosh Yeshiva" unnamed?

Is it referring to Rav Motel Pogramanski?

yossel said...

ZIY,
I really appreciate your comments here, they are usually insightful and knowledgeable.
Here i think you are not up to your best.Hirshel already pointed out that Rav Gustman had a yeshiva for many years in Crown Heights (i believe) till he made aliya in 1961.Another poster points out that Rav Gustman was there in Lubavitch till AFTER the petira of the the Firedige Rebbe.In fact apparently is quite a surprising development the Rebbe wanted a new rosh yeshiva.Also your description of how a new rosh yeshiva was chosen ". no one survived the opshluging of the bochurim" is frankly the type of stuff you'd expect from a mesivta boy.If indeed its true, the choice so pales in comparison to Rav Gustman, it makes you scratch your head.

yossel said...

i believe that r'lieberman also served in the local non lubavitch yeashiva in detroit, bais yehuda as principal.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Yossel, he was.

Anonymous said...

Rav Gustman was RY for a short time while the 7th Rebbe was leading, but had philosophical differences with the Rebb and Rav Gustman quit/was fired.

Anonymous said...

Frankly, if this is between Leibel Groner and HaRav Lieberman I think we're obliged to go with Rav Lieberman's version, VDa"l...

yossel said...

so, hirshel, r'leibermanwas an eidim by chitrick and was also meshadech with him?

Anonymous said...

Shneur:

Generally you are correct that RZSh & the Rayatz hadca fallout after the war - as attested by the RZSh archives in YIVO, that after the war the Rayatz "forced" RZSh to relinquish representation of Chabad in France & become subservient to headquarters in New York (apparently in exchange for financial support) & leading to the dismantlment of "Adas Hachareidim" that RZSh led during the war. (Remember that this is the time that the Russian chasidim werw settling in Paris, e.g. Rabbis Plotkin, Nemenov, Belnitsky, et al., & the establishment of Yeahiva TTL in Brinougha [spelling?]. - so the Rayatz was consolidating his control of France, esp. through RBG with help of the Joint).

Rumor has it the RZSh resented the fact that, unlike himself who stayed in Europe throughout the war (even communicating with the Nazis! vekm"l), the Rayatz escaped Europe early on.

Yet to say that they (RZSh & Ramash) were acrimonious is somewhat disingenuous - indeed, in 1947 the Ramash's mother stayed at RZSh's house/shul/organization in Paris, & the Ramash visited there often. The famous pictures of the Rebbe Ramash ZYA farbrenging with his mother & chasidim was taken at RZSh's abode. Also, the first shliach of the Rebbe ZYA after yud shvat 1950, sent to Morrocco, was RML (=Michoel Lipskier) - who until not long before that was RZSh's right hand man until the latter emigrated to the US.

IMHO, all this talk that RShBSh or REChC became Bobover chasidim is a bit overstated. Yes they became close to Bobov etc. - but I don't think die-hard Bobover chasidim viewed them as fully on the inside, despite REChC's shtreimel & RShBSh's up-hat. They were/are more like "independent players."

PS errata: past post "REChK" & "RShK" - should read: "REChC" & "RShC".

--ZIY

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Yossel, his eidem was also his shvogger's son. Punkt vee bay di Rebbes...

Yossele Golem said...

Yossel
".If indeed its true, the choice so pales in comparison to Rav Gustman, it makes you scratch your head."
you did read it well, the Upshloging was not on Rav Gustman,it was for the ones that wanted to replace. Read well then say your commemts

Anonymous said...

Duest:

Re the verasity of RLG - well I heard this firsthand from him as he was recounting memories about that year (tof shin tes, the same year he became the Ramash's helper). RLG & RShC were close enough to be chavrusos, &, as I mentioned, RShC was not officially registered as a tomim - but did spend muh time learning in the 770 zal. I tend to trust RLG who was just giving over personal facts - than you, who I doubt was there in 1949. Why would RLG make this up??

Re the RY RYG - IMHO you are incorrect & RYG left 770 BEFORE yud shvat 1950. It could be that he did not make aliya right away - but that is how they spoke about it in 770 years later: that RYG left 770 (shortly?) after hakomas hamedine. The attraction of RYP was that he was young, interacted with adroitness with the bochurim & had chasidisher chayes etc. Also, RBTz flopped during his tryout shiur. Apparently he was not a great orator & magid shiur, though no one doubted his geonos & iluyshaft.

As for the fact that the bochurim were shlogging up those trying out for the RY position - this is how RLG described it, not me. Chabad bochurim (& hanholo) were known to do this for those RYs testing out. There are similar examples when testing for a RY in Kfar Chabad, Lud - & IIRC reading in a tomim's zichronos, even in Lubavitch shebiLubavitch. In this sense, bochurim had some major input as to who would become their
RY - though once appointed the bochurim became more ibergegebn.

All this can still be verified by those who were in 770 those years & still around.

If anyone knows more protim, especially firsthand, please let us know. Thanks.

- ZIY

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

nobody said RLG had reason to make things up...

Not a Harry said...

Rav Chaim Milikovsky ztzvk"l was also a Rosh Yeshiva until very shortly after yud shvat. He had choice words for how the running of the yeshiva was changed by shlita

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

NAH:

so we should take a disgruntled employee's word over a Tzaddik?

shimaleh dz. said...

concerning the "arumrederay" about reb zalman schnnersohn, i think its important to point out a few facts about his life, some are known in chabad circles:
first and foremost: the rebbe escorted his oron to the beis hachaim mamash, which - i believe - never happenend in the history of the rebbes nesius, besides of course his mother and the rebbetzen in 5748. most "mevinim" i spoke to beleive that this in itself showed that the rebbe was "moichel" him, as they put it...
2] he was from the biggest askonim in russia saving yiden, and did that as a personal shliach of the frierdiker rebbe, for further info see: igros FR and toldos chabad berussya hasovyetit.
3] when the FR would visit paris (very often) he would always make a point to visit reb zalman in his appartment. however, reb zalmans apartment was on the third floor and the FR had to go up all those stairs, which some people felt wasnt bechovedik, especially since the frierdiker rebbes health wasnt the best.

there is more, ועוד חזון למועד

Anonymous said...

 Hirsh --

"duest said...leibel groner ahin leabel groner aher (since when is everything leibel groner said keilui torah mi'sinai? and far from it, as is known)"

- ZIY

shimaleh dz. said...

from a letter that was written by one of the talmidim in 770 5709 is apparent that RYG left the yeshivah tamuz time that year (5709) because of his disagreement with the hanholoh about the merkos shlichus program.

Anonymous said...

Chabadepidia has it that RYG was RY tilltof ahim yud (no mention if beforw or after yud shvat). So I stand corrected that it was tof shim yud, not tof shim tes - though it could be that RShC left Lakewood in tof shin tes, hanging out more often in 770, & it was a year later that the RY tryouts took place.

http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php?title=%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%96%D7%90%D7%91_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%98%D7%9E%D7%9F

- ZIY

schneur said...

Since Reb Eli Chaim Carlebach was mentioned, it is interesting to note that he apparently was a chozer at the Rayaatz in the 1940's. Is this in fact true ?
His short biography of the Rayaatz published in his journal is really worth reading as it captures the 6th rebbe in a real chassidishe manner.
By the way our friend Reb Zalman Schacter- Shalomi another native Galitzianer also became enamored of the Bobover Rebbe in the 1960's and even had a shtreimel made in Manitoba.
I don't know what the nature of the relationship was between RSBS and the Bobover Rebbe but he was a regular at the Rebbe's tisch and his brother in law was there a lot too.
According to Bere Gourary Rabbi SZS had great dreams for the future of his family , but they failed to materialize.
The Bobover Rebbe was a real charming man. Reb Zalman Schacter writes a short paragraph about him and captures his inner and outer beauty.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I wouldn't change my mind just yet, just based on "Chabadpedia"

Anonymous said...

Thanks shimaleh!

-ZIY

schneur said...

Indeed RSZS was in the category of zochoh and the 7th rebbe accompanied his aron to Old Monrefiore, one would expect nothing less from a close cousin both desc of Reb Baruch Shalom. Indeed it would be shocking if this did not happen.
But bechaiv no position was ever found for rabbi SZS in the large Lubavitch network nor was a position offered to rabbi SBS in this network. After all how many ben acher bens of the Zemach Zedek remain active in Chabad ? And the public comments aginst RSZS made by the rebbe are documented in Chabad sources. By the way what did he do that he needed mechilah from the Rebbe ?

Superintendant Chalmers said...

Why is the "Telzer Rosh Yeshiva" unnamed? Who is it referring to?

Anonymous said...

True hirsh.... & as shimale points out, RYG most likely did leave end of tof shin tes. It could be that it took a whole year or so to find a new RY, which would explain the discrepancy, & why here are those who think RYG was there till tof shin yud.

Do remember that RMM (=Mordechai Mentlik) acted as de facto RY anyways, both before & after RYG - so even when there was no official RY kloli, there was still the R"M RMM who acted as such. This remained so even under RYP, until RMM's petireh in the late '80s.

-ZIY

Not a Harry said...

RCM Was appointed by the Rayatz, don't be so quick to dismiss him as a disgruntled employee versus a zaddik.

Anonymous said...

Shneur:
Not sure if REChC was a chozer of the Rayatz - but a decade or 2 later he did co-author WITH THE REBBE ZYA the index on sifrei Chabad ("Sefer Hamaftechos Lesifrei Chabad"), printed by Kehos. Parts were done by the Rebbe, parts by REChC.

- ZIY

Anonymous said...

BTW, in the recently printed memoirs of RMNG (=Menachen Nochum Gurelnik) in a family teshura, he recounts how RZSh came to learn in Lubavitch with great mesoras nefesh & against his father's objections. IIRC, they both lodged in Lubavitch at the mashpiah RShG (=Shmuel Groinem).

-ZIY

set things straight said...

shneur said:
"But bechaiv no position was ever found for rabbi SZS in the large Lubavitch network nor was a position offered to rabbi SBS in this network. After all how many ben acher bens of the Zemach Zedek remain active in Chabad ?"

bemchilas kvod toroso, i dont think in lubavitch they appointed people only because of their. rather because of their chushim and kishronos in learning vechulu. your saying that he shouldve gotten a job as a grandson of the Z"Z just proves how unfamiliar you are with lubavitch's הלוך ילך....

Alte chosid said...

Set things straight
you don't get sheneur, he is still from the Doir Hachamishi of chabad..

Alte chosid said...

ZIy
I think Elye chaim helped write Reb Yoel the fitst 2 or 3 volumes likutie sichos

Alte chosid said...

Shechneur
" And the public comments aginst RSZS made by the rebbe are documented in Chabad sources. By the way what did he do that he needed mechilah from the Rebbe ?"
he should of mevatel his Yeshus... as a Chasidisher yid.

Alte chosid said...

Schneur
"And the Rebbe publically at a hisvaadus in 770 blasted RSZS for referring to himself as Gran rabin (a title many French rabbis used) and calling the 6th rebbe rabin"
when did the Rebbe say it? When the FIl was still alive? or after?

Yakov Shulem said...

Are there still some institutions around that RSZS and his son have established?
He saved lots of Jews by the war, in France, how long did he stay there?
From reading Shneurs chabad observations, I was always under the impression, that the Reshag was the noble likable fuzzy person, (EDITED) yet the majority of the chasidim (EDITED) opted for the younger shvoger..
Can someone explain this strange phenomenon ?

effy said...

@duest, what was r pekarski's derech halimud, and why was it made fun of?

Yakov Shulem said...

Hirshel
I appreciating your editing, but these are words of Shneur the great, not mines chas vesholom

Hamasbir said...

Effy
In Lubavich the derech halimud is closer to Brisk, then to this wild Pielisher derech of Rav Pikarsky,Who was a big Goan,but took Sochachev to a far stretch....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

well, still

duest said...

re when rav gustman left.
listen bring the letter and then we will discuss it.
one can speak to people who were there at the time, or to their kids.
peretz hecht is no longer alive, but one can ask his kids or ainiklach. yisroel gordon's mind is no longer active, but his memory of those years is clear as day. and there are many more.
re leible groner. i do not know if he is making things up on purpose. but it is known (vedal as someone said)that he has ah shaine koach hadimyoin, and for sure gets perotim wrong the whole time. it is a joke that this is even a argument.
just one thing, one of his big issues was that bochruim kept on going to the tzion of the frierdiker rebbe to daven instead of learning.
but this is not even an argument.
re testing roshei yeshivois.
it was not testing per say. in those years (when bochurim knew a little more and had more shtultz), the bochurim would make the rosh yeshiva meshuga in his first shiur to see how much he is up to par.
re. pikarsky vs tzukerman, i was not talking so much the maale of tzukerman (who was a goan), more the chisoroin of pikarsky.
re pilarsky, he was take young and well liked and had more bitul to chasidishe inyonim (which was gustmans issue), but altz a rosh yeshiva?
re his derech halimud. look it is never easy to describe a derech halimud (look today at all the chareidi hagio's), especially when we are talking galicianish poilish.
but let me make a few general points. if you are involved inlearning you will know what i am talking abuot.

in the lubavitch yeshvois (especially russian), one learned either pshat, or lumdus in the pshat in sugya. but this idea of pilpul was considered a joke. one can check hisprinted stuff (i do not mean so much his chirei halochois, butthings printed for example in the kovtzim), and one will see where forget about pilpul he does not really talk about yesoidois in the sugya but other things, and that is before the pilpul style.
and that is before his style even in pilpul, as reb yisroel friedman likes to laugh, er flegt alemol iberzogen der avneei nezer fun kop arup.
if you ask anybody from those years, you will only get snearing. some might tell you that he was boki in the alter rebbe shulchan aruch or certain seforim, but no one will tell you that he was a good magid shiur or rosh yeshiva. mendlik who said a low lever top mesivta style shiur, said a better shiur that befits for a rosh yeshiva, and that does not say a great deal. again medlik was there also altz a chosid, but that is another discussion

re zalman shneerson. i thought i wrote about it, but it did not come up. the rebbe went to his levaye, that is fact. it is also known by many that in th elater years the rebbe forgave him.

but there is another issue: kfiya tova to the tenth power, and stam rishus.

one will find issues with many people, and sometimes big ones. but let us look at reb alman: he did a great deal in france in preserving real yidishkiet before the war, he was moiser nefesh kepshuitoi, to save yidin during the war (think teichtel zilbershtrom and many others), and after the war, wiith all the politics, he did a lot of good, and saved may kids from going off the derch.

so just to discuss his fight, do many years later, is downright sick
it is kefiya tova to the good he did, and rishus, to only stick to certain things, when he killed himself throughout his life for the sake of others.

and again it is a known fact that the rebbe forgave him.

yossel said...

the late leibel zisman inhis book "I Believe, The Story of One Jewish Life" relates that her Rebbe wanted another more chasidish rosh yeshiva instead of rav gustman.
i'm surprised because usually the rebbe would not change what his shver saw fit.rav gustman was a world class talmid chochom and rosh yeshiva and chabad could really have benefitted from a man of such stature as rosh yeshiva

yossel said...

can someone tell us about r'berel zuckerman?

unfortunately, lubavitch did not have great luck with outstanding roshei yeshiva.
one that stands out for his brilliant talmidim and was in the old lubavitch style was goldberg from france.his talmidim, and there are not to many because it was a small kehilla stand out.kalmanson brothers and others.

effy said...

on a completely unrelated note: I was just thinking about a quote that goes something like this: he's not my rebbe, and he's not my chassid, or something like that, its at the tip of my tounge, (sorry can't give more info, just don't remember clearly) does anyone know what it is?

lozmirup said...

not sure where people get their info but here are some facts everyone is confusing

1. RYG had a fallout with RSL (levitin) over running the yeshiva. he was pushed out approximately one month after yud shvat. RSL was not known for his menshlichkeit vidal. moreover he was power hungry and RYG was in his way.
2. the rashag hated RSZS. so bg's stories about him are tainted. he set him up a rabbonus in buffalo to get him out of the way, but that didn't last long.
3. RSZS was a moiridike askan, saved countless lives in france, had a hidden school in lyon during the nazi occupation, helped the FR numerous times. that all said, his people skills were horrible and nobody could work with him. he was an independent 1 man show who worked gr8 things on his way.
4. he always had a back channel to the Rebbe even after 5710. he called the Rebbitzen constantly, borrowed money from her when he was low, etc. The Rebbe went to his kvurah IMHO as a hakoras hatoiv for his taking care of the Rebbe's mother in paris. when she arrived there, she was sick, unable to walk, terrible skin problems, and he simply took care of her physically.
5. RECC needed bobov to validate his metzius. he enjoyed the show and the kovod. rumor was he wrote R' Shloime's tish torah. (i asked him once and he smiled) he wasn't a chossid botul to him by any stretch of the imagination.

got more to write v'oid chazan l'moed

shimaleh dz. said...

duest:
"listen bring the letter and then we will discuss it."

the letter reads as follows: רב גוסטמאן וועט נעקסטע וואך שוין נישט קומען אין ישיבה, עס איז נישט באשטימט.
so:
1] could be he only left for a while, and later came back till after yud shvat.
2] or, as he writes, ס'איז נישט באשטימט meaning that maybe bepoal he did stay.

al kol ponim: bepashtus from this letter is mashma that he left then (tamuz 5709).

and again: the ongenumene girsah in lubavitch is that he left after yud shvat...

whats also known is that the bochrim did like his style and even went into the rebbe to ask that he should stay, kayodua the maaseh with yitzchok dovid groner..

Anonymous said...

Yossel:

For a bio of RBTz, see his "Beis Aharon" [J-m, 5734] in the hakdomoh, where his eiydem RShR (son of RBR aka MeDaBeR, RY of TV) wrote a thorough bio. There's also a picture of him in the back.

RYDG of Melbourne used to speak fondly of him. He knew him from his pre-Australia days when he spent some time in Buffalo on shlichus, which is whrere RBTz was rov.

- ZIY

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/3151

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

could be that the כותב couldn't remember a name like Pogrimanski so he wrote A Telsher. I doubt it was his intention not to mention the name.

Hamasbir said...

Yossel
"rav gustman was a world class talmid chochom and rosh yeshiva and chabad could really have benefitted from a man of such stature as rosh yeshiva"
no question that rav gustman was a big lamdan and big talmid chochem. But he had no following even after he left Lubavich, his torah is too long, for our generations attention span. He reminds me of Rav Savitzky or Reb Moshe Rozen big gaonim, with all there serforim are in shiemois....
Today all roshie yeshivas are following the path of Reb Shmuel Razovsky, all with a slight different slnat.... but only they are succesfull.
Chabad benefited the most, from Rav Goldberg of Brunei France, he created a whole cadre of roshie yeshivas, the Kalmanson brothers , his Son of Migdal emek etc.......

Ben Eliezer said...

In addition to his help with sefer hamafteichos l'chasidus chabad as mentioned previously - RECC also wrote the mafteichos to first 4 volumes of LIkkutei Sichos (they may be slightly incorporated in the former chibur).

A photo of RECC by kosel in his later years (may have been published on this blog), has him with a non-Chabad talis (stripes etc). It seems he even ditched the talis when moving on to Bobov.

Ben Eliezer said...

I personally know of a few distinguished Lubavitchers of today, who came from Lita cirles, and during their spiritual journey had a brief (one was less brief) stop by RSZS, but eventually made it to the Rebbe zya.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Ben Eliezer, we all know them too.

That pic of RECC is with a Lubavitcher Tallis & Tefillin, just with an atarah. See here

tallis said...

i dont think thats a lubavitcher tallis, look again.
the tefillin are.

Anonymous said...

The story is with one of the talmidim of the alter rebbe that walked the karliner out of town after he came to visit the alter rebbe
As they were leaving each other the karliner begged him to stay with him
The chosid answered him your a master but not my master, and I'm a servent but not yours

Anonymous said...

The Rosh Yeshiva in Hiede was R' Feival Shapira, a telzer talmid.
R' Motel was there for around six months in the late 30's.

RZHL

Anonymous said...

Shimaleh:

Who is the letter from? I thought you meant the letters of Uri Ben-Shachar - but he was Israeli & wouldn't have written in Yiddish. Does Ben-Shachar mention this too? Remember where they are printed?

-ZIY

yossel said...

i already posted a link about the yeshiva in heideh
see there how r'shapiro was killed by the nazis .some history about the yeshiva in heideh http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/chinuch/mosdot/ets1-2.htm

yossel said...

hirshel, u write that rav lieberman is a gaon. and his geonus and accomplishments are what demand respect. can u elaborate a bit. has he written seforim?
the community he is rov of is very modern orthodox

shimaleh dz. said...

i think the ben shahchar letters are printed in a tshurah of his grandsons/daughters wedding to a zirkind.

this is a letter from peretz hecht a"h.

ock said...

Veeyisem nekiyim I am posting frim australia motze shabbos

On topic of RY who learnt by R goldberg besides kalmanson brothers, the wilchanski brothers, ab pevzner, s spalter,

Anonymous said...

Shimaleh:

Thanks. Ah, Reb Peretz o"h! An emeser Tomim yerey shomayim. Where are his letters printed?

Maybe Eliye Gross' unedited yoman has something from around Yud Shvat 5710 as to what was going on in 770 zal & hanholoh re RYG.

-ZIY

Anonymous said...

Yossel, just to put some perspective on Rav Lieberman...
Without going into details, Rav Lieberman was around five years younger than the youngest student in Heideh. Was Farhered as a child by Gedolim like Rav Yechezkel Abramski, Rav Elchanan Wasserman and others. Was sent by the Freidikeh Rebbe as a Bochur to become Rov of Bnei Reuvein.
Rav Lieberman hasn't R"L been able to so much as look into a Sefer for at least the last five years due to his blindness yet KA"H continues to give daily Shiurim and travel around Europe and the world to give speeches and sit on Dinei Torah and Zablo'os.
Has not just served as Rov of Shomrei Hadas but also as AB"D for the past thirty four years...
Unfortunately, despite the insistence of many, Rav Lieberman still refuses to allow for a Sefer to be printed with his Chiddushim.
As Hirshel pointed out, one only needs to look at the respect given to Rav Lieberman by the Machzikei Hadas Kehila and Rav Schiff to appreciate his greatness.

yossel said...

thanks for the info and bio details

Horodetz said...

Who are his esteemed einiklach that we get to hear about shevabrachos?