So now the issue is too much Chabad, yet too little observance. I love it when people sitting al sir HaBosor in New York complain about Shluchim in far-flung places, it's just so heartwarming...
Well, friends, the story goes something like this, not just with Schick, whom I do not know and do not mean to single out, but with the whole "establishment".
At first Chabad was crazy for doing outreach. "Whoever heard of reaching to Mechalelei Shabbos, it's an outrage", they said. Then Chabad was against Halachah for putting Tfillin on "Goyim" on the street. Then "outreach" became popular, so poular that those darned Chabadskers may have no part of it, so they decided that they, the establishment, and not Chabad, were the pioneers, whether it be Essas in the Soviet Union or Ner Israel/Chofetz Chaim in America, anybody but Chabad.
The problem is that Chabad has grown and grown and has been recognized by world leaders, so much so that every little Chabad Shnook gets meetings with heads of state and buildings returned from formerly dictatorial regimes. What to do?
The meeting of the minds happened, and somebody (maybe Mordy Neustadt) came up with this idea to totally negate any Chabad outreach, and belittle it as watered-down Judaism, Messianism etc. Chabad is in it for the money, for the prestige, for the Rebbe, basically for all the wrong reasons.
What we're seeing now is the fruition of those talks.
I don't think he understands the Rebbe's position on doing "Kiruv", i.e. the One Mitzvah at a time. Also, may be there should a handbook for all shluchim to follow?
"I don't think he understands the Rebbe's position on doing "Kiruv", i.e. the One Mitzvah at a time."
Tzig, I think that, that is the problem today, yesterdays lubavitch movement created Baaly Teshuva seeing the Whole picture, not just one mitzvah at a time.
Of course the point is to make full-fledged frumme yidden, but the question is how it's done. The Rebbe's approach, I believe, was to introduce mitzvos like tfillin, and that would lead to further observance, ultimately to full observance.
However, when looked at from afar, it could seem watered down because of the slow process.
went to the ohel today. did not really feel a special connection. I think I was confused (more so then visiting other Kivrei tzaddikim) whether I was davening to haShem or asking help from the Rebbe. And when I decided to adress my bakashos to G-d, I somehow felt that i was betraying the Rebbe. It left me with alot of awkward feelings.
Duvie:Your post shows you are a bit mixed up. What do you mean that 'And when I decided to adress my bakashos to G-d, I somehow felt that i was betraying the Rebbe''? Do you really equate the rebbe with Hashem?Is THE rebee part of some '(un)holy trinity like the Christians have? The more I see Lubavitch's mekurovim, the more I understand why so many chosheveh yidden were skeptical about this new 'derech' And that's withouth the whole meshichist scandal
vehu rachum, "Betraying the Rebbe"! What an idiot you are for not seeing the spoof! Did you even bother to see that duvisharfman was simply a moronic leitz? Check out his blog/s and crawl back here and apologize. Actually, time for you to go the ohel and apologize to the Rebbe in front of a minyan, as mandated by the halocho. Un zol dir der aibeshter take mechaper ovein zain...
The banquet is a fundraiser and PR effort aimed at the rich balei batim who come as guests of the shluchim, and for people who watch it on-line. I thought that Alan's speach was good for that audience, and much more effective than if Reb Yoel had said a ma'amar for them (e.g.). Marvin is a good man who distributes millions of dollars through the Avi Chai foundation. I personally know a shliach on the West Coast who received a 6-figure-amount to build a mikva from him. plus, he avoided the "moshiach issue" in his article, which is an easy one to pick on. So let's assume he misunderstood the purpose for Dershowitz being there, rather than assume that he has sina for Lubavitch.
tzig, last time I commented was, as I recall just a compliment to your post. I am not being "defensive"; it’s just that I just do not suffer idiots well.
As a friend I can tell the Lubavitchers here that you suffer from the effects of a double-sided sword. You seek the benefits of PR, publicizing all your activities to the max, yet you tell your detractors to go to hell. If you want people to like you, which seems to be the case here, then you cannot keep on saying "Af tzu Loches" alle misnagdim.
Friendly anonymous, I find your 'defense' of Shick a bit 'funny'.You say: 'So let's assume he misunderstood the purpose for Dershowitz being there, rather than assume that he has sina for Lubavitch.' Why can't we use our heads and consider the following:Shick does not hate Lubavitch, but raises a very VALID POINT:Is it not unbelievable that someone who grew up frum, became a mechalel shabbes, whose son married a gentile, Should be HONORED?!!! Do the even the 'machers' in Lubavitch need to be right? s(of courSe you believe the Rebbe always was, but that's another discussion....)
why is lubavitch open game for every yossi to critisize, constuctive or otherwise? The sensational success of chabad is the catalyst for giving all these articles any life whatsoever. I don't know why marvin shtick or any of these other pundits don't have what to say about the wholesale yiddishkeit of modern orthodoxy and or young israels accross america and its very near complete abrogation of kdusha and dismissal of practical halacha...
I don't know who you mean by "young Israelis" and who the "Habad houses" are, but one thing's for sure, Lubavitch is fair game now. OPEN SEASON LUBAVITCH, COME AND GIT SOME!
dear yi defender, shtick is critizing movement wide, so YI is fair game and others as well. The main point though is that in a chabad house people start out with minimal jewish knowledge and gradually learn more and increase observance of yiddishkeit; going up the ladder, while in a typical young israel modern orthodox setting, people know quite a bit about yiddishkeit having gone to yeshiva and jump on and off the ladder whenever it is convenient. please don't make me spell it out.
So that we do not forget: the same Rebbe that set the tone of "umekarvon" even the briyos beolmoh and taught us about the power of a mitzvoh and the significance of the kiyum of an individual mitzvah, the same Rebbe fought hard against "umekarv haTorah" to the people. It would be worthwhile to listen to some of the Rebbe's sichos about it, for instance 19 Kislev 5735.
Listen carefully to MS he is saying what some/many honest L say:
There is an impression that it's enough for the person who comes and participates continues in his state, as long as he comes into our quarters.
There is a sense what we accept (not only, the person who has a chelek elokah, but) his lifestyle and that is a filution of standards.
N, you are using stereotypes from years ago. Young Isreaels now are not the same as years ago and there can also be alot of variation between different branches. If you are not out there you don't what's going on with them.
23 comments:
So now the issue is too much Chabad, yet too little observance. I love it when people sitting al sir HaBosor in New York complain about Shluchim in far-flung places, it's just so heartwarming...
Well, friends, the story goes something like this, not just with Schick, whom I do not know and do not mean to single out, but with the whole "establishment".
At first Chabad was crazy for doing outreach. "Whoever heard of reaching to Mechalelei Shabbos, it's an outrage", they said. Then Chabad was against Halachah for putting Tfillin on "Goyim" on the street. Then "outreach" became popular, so poular that those darned Chabadskers may have no part of it, so they decided that they, the establishment, and not Chabad, were the pioneers, whether it be Essas in the Soviet Union or Ner Israel/Chofetz Chaim in America, anybody but Chabad.
The problem is that Chabad has grown and grown and has been recognized by world leaders, so much so that every little Chabad Shnook gets meetings with heads of state and buildings returned from formerly dictatorial regimes. What to do?
The meeting of the minds happened, and somebody (maybe Mordy Neustadt) came up with this idea to totally negate any Chabad outreach, and belittle it as watered-down Judaism, Messianism etc. Chabad is in it for the money, for the prestige, for the Rebbe, basically for all the wrong reasons.
What we're seeing now is the fruition of those talks.
Agudah Uber Alles!
I don't think he understands the Rebbe's position on doing "Kiruv", i.e. the One Mitzvah at a time. Also, may be there should a handbook for all shluchim to follow?
Constructive criticism? Feh! Marvin's rant is nothing but an ignorant diatribe.
"I don't think he understands the Rebbe's position on doing "Kiruv", i.e. the One Mitzvah at a time."
Tzig, I think that, that is the problem today, yesterdays lubavitch movement created Baaly Teshuva seeing the Whole picture, not just one mitzvah at a time.
palm3, you misunderstand.
Of course the point is to make full-fledged frumme yidden, but the question is how it's done. The Rebbe's approach, I believe, was to introduce mitzvos like tfillin, and that would lead to further observance, ultimately to full observance.
However, when looked at from afar, it could seem watered down because of the slow process.
went to the ohel today. did not really feel a special connection. I think I was confused (more so then visiting other Kivrei tzaddikim) whether I was davening to haShem or asking help from the Rebbe. And when I decided to adress my bakashos to G-d, I somehow felt that i was betraying the Rebbe. It left me with alot of awkward feelings.
Duvie:Your post shows you are a bit mixed up.
What do you mean that 'And when I decided to adress my bakashos to G-d, I somehow felt that i was betraying the Rebbe''?
Do you really equate the rebbe with Hashem?Is THE rebee part of some '(un)holy trinity like the Christians have?
The more I see Lubavitch's mekurovim, the more I understand why so many chosheveh yidden were skeptical about this new 'derech'
And that's withouth the whole meshichist scandal
vehu rachum,
"Betraying the Rebbe"! What an idiot you are for not seeing the spoof! Did you even bother to see that duvisharfman was simply a moronic leitz? Check out his blog/s and crawl back here and apologize. Actually, time for you to go the ohel and apologize to the Rebbe in front of a minyan, as mandated by the halocho. Un zol dir der aibeshter take mechaper ovein zain...
אינטערעסאנט, בערל, אז דא רעדסטו זעלטען, און אלעמאל נאר דעפענסיווע ווערטער
Chitas
it may be an ignorant diatribe, but he happens to be an influential person with a respected opinion. That does not bode well for Chabad.
The banquet is a fundraiser and PR effort aimed at the rich balei batim who come as guests of the shluchim, and for people who watch it on-line. I thought that Alan's speach was good for that audience, and much more effective than if Reb Yoel had said a ma'amar for them (e.g.).
Marvin is a good man who distributes millions of dollars through the Avi Chai foundation. I personally know a shliach on the West Coast who received a 6-figure-amount to build a mikva from him. plus, he avoided the "moshiach issue" in his article, which is an easy one to pick on. So let's assume he misunderstood the purpose for Dershowitz being there, rather than assume that he has sina for Lubavitch.
tzig, last time I commented was, as I recall just a compliment to your post. I am not being "defensive"; it’s just that I just do not suffer idiots well.
As a friend I can tell the Lubavitchers here that you suffer from the effects of a double-sided sword. You seek the benefits of PR, publicizing all your activities to the max, yet you tell your detractors to go to hell. If you want people to like you, which seems to be the case here, then you cannot keep on saying "Af tzu Loches" alle misnagdim.
Friendly
That was good and to the point, thanks.
Berl
Antshuldikt mir.
Friendly anonymous,
I find your 'defense' of Shick a bit 'funny'.You say: 'So let's assume he misunderstood the purpose for Dershowitz being there, rather than assume that he has sina for Lubavitch.'
Why can't we use our heads and consider the following:Shick does not hate Lubavitch, but raises a very VALID POINT:Is it not unbelievable that someone who grew up frum, became a mechalel shabbes, whose son married a gentile, Should be HONORED?!!!
Do the even the 'machers' in Lubavitch need to be right? s(of courSe you believe the Rebbe always was, but that's another discussion....)
why is lubavitch open game for every yossi to critisize, constuctive or otherwise? The sensational success of chabad is the catalyst for giving all these articles any life whatsoever. I don't know why marvin shtick or any of these other pundits don't have what to say about the wholesale yiddishkeit of modern orthodoxy and or young israels accross america and its very near complete abrogation of kdusha and dismissal of practical halacha...
n, wake up, Young Israels are frummer than you think, frummer than many Habad houses. I'm afraid you don't know what's going on out there.
YIFriend
I don't know who you mean by "young Israelis" and who the "Habad houses" are, but one thing's for sure, Lubavitch is fair game now. OPEN SEASON LUBAVITCH, COME AND GIT SOME!
dear yi defender,
shtick is critizing movement wide, so YI is fair game and others as well. The main point though is that in a chabad house people start out with minimal jewish knowledge and gradually learn more and increase observance of yiddishkeit; going up the ladder, while in a typical young israel modern orthodox setting, people know quite a bit about yiddishkeit having gone to yeshiva and jump on and off the ladder whenever it is convenient. please don't make me spell it out.
So that we do not forget: the same Rebbe that set the tone of "umekarvon" even the briyos beolmoh and taught us about the power of a mitzvoh and the significance of the kiyum of an individual mitzvah, the same Rebbe fought hard against "umekarv haTorah" to the people. It would be worthwhile to listen to some of the Rebbe's sichos about it, for instance 19 Kislev 5735.
Listen carefully to MS he is saying what some/many honest L say:
There is an impression that it's enough for the person who comes and participates continues in his state, as long as he comes into our quarters.
There is a sense what we accept (not only, the person who has a chelek elokah, but) his lifestyle and that is a filution of standards.
N, you are using stereotypes from years ago. Young Isreaels now are not the same as years ago and there can also be alot of variation between different branches. If you are not out there you don't what's going on with them.
770EasternParkway.com: Readers respond to Mr. Schick - Where Chabad is Heading
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