Thursday, May 7, 2009

Reb Menashe and the Lubavitchers



Talk about the benefit of the doubt! You people give me none. If there's something you want to see me address and it isn't done immediate;y, then I must be hiding or censoring something. It seems like over the years I've spoiled you into thinking that at any given movement a long post can appear out the blue. I'm glad to hear that, but sometimes more time is necessary, especially when addressing serious matters that often represent the views of many others. I refer, of course to the recently published Tshuvah in Mishneh Haloches of Rav Menashe Klein where he supposedly called Meshichisten Apikorsim, or something like that. COL saw fit to publicize this Tshuveh, which was recently published in Vol XVII of his sefer, and the result was all hell breaking loose. What we ended up seeing was an embarrassing display of Ameratzes, hate and Bizayon Talmid Chochom, which prompted one Lubavitcher Talmid Chochom to say that "if they're not Apikorsim for their beliefs, then they most certainly are for the Bizui of a great posek, one of the few remaining in America.

Here's my problem: I'll let y'all in a little secret: Reb Menashe Klein was my mohel. He made my Upsheren. I went to his pre-school. I grew up davening in his shul. I know every krechtz and every niggun they sing for every shtikkel in davening throughout the year. Well, at least I knew them all, it's been a while since I davened there. Most of the guys who grew up there don't daven there any more, at least not the guys my age, anyway. They all moved to Flatbush, Lakewood, Monsey or Israel. What's left is my parents' generation, some of RMK's family, an some newcomers. But the place is a shell of its old self, despite moving into a new Beis Medrash upstairs, in the "Heichel Zichron Kedoshim." I believe, that if you ask anybody from my generation what they would rather have, an old shul filled with children and singing, or a quiet, empty, new shul made of Jerusalem stone, and they'd ask for the former, despite the lack of air-conditioning on those hot Shabbos mornings. Why do I tell you all this? just so that you understand where I'm coming from.

Having said that we can go on to the topic at hand. There seems to be more than issue being discussed here. It's not just whether or not you're allowed to believe that the Rebbe is still Moshiach, or was ever. There's the issue of not accepting another Rebbe, and of going to the ohel as well. In other words he seems to be "attacking" just about everybody in Lubavitch, not just the Meshichisten. That's why you'll be hard-pressed to find anybody that would wholly agree with him on this matter. Not because they think they know better, or because they lack respect for Rabbonim, but because they feel - with all due respect - that RMK is an outsider, he doesn't understand the Chabad Dor Hashvi'i - or any generation for that matter - culture, so he can't really lecture them on they should run their own internal affairs. This despite the fact that the Rebbe had great respect for him, even as a very young man almost 50 years ago. For these matters, most Lubavitchers would tell you, one needs to consult with the Rebbe's sichos or with Lubavitcher mashpi'im, not with outside Rabbonim, despite their good intentions, otherwise we may have to discontinue Shlichus altogether, since many Rabbonim oppose it altogether.

Read the Tshuveh for yourselves, we'll discuss it here.














120 comments:

n said...

i liked your post. where can an apikores, i mean an am ha oretz get a copy in english?

PSOL said...

If the whole philosophy was geared up to the Dor Hasevi'i, and that Dor came and went, doesn't it cast doubt on the whole edifice?

At what point do rational people say "Nu, looks like he was wrong" and put the whole thing behind them?

LF said...

RMK claims to respect The Rebbe and Lubavitch. if so,before publishing such a "Psak" ,perhaps he could have had the curtesy to contact any mainstream Lubavitch Rov or Mashpia. They would have showed him that he may have a point about the extremists but to say we cant go to the ohel regulary and we must appoint a new rebbe,goes against the grain of everything the rebbe tought. I hope some respectable figure in Lubavitch will show him the relevent sources in the rebbes sichos and letters (especially from 1950 ) and then perhaps he can come out with a clarification. BTW,I too attended RMKs preschool and would daven there on occasion. Ive had nothing bur respect for him but I do have a problem with this Psak.

Boruch Dov said...

L.F,
You have a "problem" with this psak.
'Scuse me? On the grounds that you yourself are a Rov or Posek??
Let me tell you a small secret:What R'Menashe says is is agreed upon by every non Lubavitcher rov.His psak is not a chidush at all.
Guys, you have to snap out of this madness.First and foremost for Lubavitchs own good.

u know who! said...

"This despite the fact that the Rebbe had great respect for him, even as a very young man almost 50 years ago."

This is not accurate.Apparently R'MK knew the Rebbe in 1947 already, before he became REBBE (62 years ago).
Basically means that he knew the Rebbe when most of the big tawkers fathers were not even born.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ah, so since he knew him already in 1947 it can't be that he had great respect for him in 1960? In 1947 RMK was a young man of 22. He had no prior position.

Someone forgot his pills this morning.

u know who! said...

If someone says that the Rebbe had great respect more than 60 years ago, even if he is wrong, does that mean they forgot their pills?Help me understand the logic.
If you already want to nitpick, how do you know that the Rebbe started respecting him "almost 50 years ago"?
My opinion (before the "pills")was based on them having a close relationship for years, which probably meant that the Rebbe respected him even then.
But let's not get caught up in minutae.This psak in my opinion is groundbreaking, much bigger then the small details.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no, it means you're a reactionary who flies out of his chair every time he sees something he can disagree with. The pills would have a calming effect.

Since I am close to RMK and his family, and since I'm a Lubavitcher, I know these things. His family told me this.

LF said...

B.D. , "'Scuse me? On the grounds that you yourself are a Rov or Posek?? ". No, I myself am not a Poisek. But there are Hundreds of Shluchim and Robonim who are poskim ,who vehemently disagree with the latter part of this psak.

U know who! said...

L.F,
What about this psak do you have a problem with?
*Whether a whole group of people should continue with an empty mantra of "yechi" when all know it's totally off?
*Whether,Moshiach is from the dead or the living?
*Whether it's not high time that Chabad got a new leader?
*Whether there is not a problem with obsessive visits to a cemetery, making Lechaims at a cemetery, writing long letters in a cemetery,actually making a cemetery a whole major focus of Yiddishkait, when we know that Moshe Rabeinus burial place was hidden just because it may become "objectified"?

What R'Menashe says is accepted amongst all walks of Orthodox life.I may add that some Lubavitchers agree with this, but cannot take on such a vocal majority.

Dovid said...

Tzig, it doesn't seem like he is saying the Rebbe can't be Moshiach, actually he seems to be saying the Rebbe can be Moshiach after techiya. He seems to be really bothered by what some say that the Rebbe is living and he brings all these problems with saying that someone that passed away is literally alive and walking around.

OT Bochur said...

1) R. Menashe Klein is a Posek? On behalf of whom does he pasken, his loyal Meshamesh Ginzberg? His son R. Amram?

The Frummer Olam has been calling him the "Meshaneh Halachos" for 40 years and counting. If anyone knows anyone who knows anyone who considers him his Rav, drop me a line.

That's not to say that he's not a great Talmid Chacham. He is. But consider the fact that this is the first time his name has ever appeared on any of these (non-chabad) sites!! Consider the fact that he has burned his bridges with every single group (chabad's the last, I guess) possible. Consider the fact that aside from visits to Eretz Yisroel (where it's the norm for כל צרוע וכל זב, and he actually has some kind of community), he never interacts with any of the Gedolim and Rabbanim in America.

Consider the fact that over 80% of us can't name a single a Psak he ever issued.

2) כדרך עמי הארץ, no one realizes that R. Menashe actually has no problem with משיח מן המתים (look at the Abravanel paragraph). His problem is with saying that הוא מת והוא חי. Which somehow is ביזוי תלמידי חכמים.

3) R. Menashe considers anyone reading this right now in "Goyish" on the internet, to be just as much an Apikores as he considers יחי sayers Apikorsim.

Let's see you get behind that one.

ובזה אשים קנצי למילין ואברך את כולכם בשבת שלום ומבורך.

berl, crown heights said...

RMK did not say that you may not go to the ohel (the issue of praying at the gravesite of the deceased tzaddik and asking him to intercede on one's behalf is explicitly addressed by Minchas Elozor – "not only permitted, but even a mitzvoh), RMK simply says that going to the ohel does not replace appointing a physically alive leader (which he deems a chiuv gomur).

He even states that a man that is currently deceased MAY come back in techias hameisim before the coming of Moshiach and will, therefore be alive and thus a candidate, like anyone else alive, to become Moshiach. RMK is adamant, though, that until such a thing happens, one may not, as an article of faith, declare a specific deceased tzaddik to be alive now AL PI DIN (big stress here).

RMK spends a great deal of time negating the idea that the Rebbe was hallachically bechezkas moshiach until 3 Tammuz 5754. He specifically goes out of his way to say that even if Rebbe might have been the most suitable candidate for the job while alive, he wasn't ever bechezkas moshiach (missing conditions of Rambam).

IMHO, it would be nice if RMK went a little further and addressed how some of what the Rebbe said over the years about FR fits into this psak (like he addressed the Rebbes's words on 28 Nissan). I can easily imagine what can be said on this topic, but it would be meaningful had RMK said it himself.

Now, it is a chutzpah for me hakoton to say that the psak wasn't an incredible read and left me wanting for some better articulated (less emotion, more cold substance) gedorim on the heavy subject apikusus, etc? RMK's statement "ain li esek benistoreis" is more than puzzling in this context – after all, we are dealing here with a subject asher rubei nistor hu.

David said...

OT Bochur,
After all the years of kissing up to R'MKlein Lubavitcher suddenly do not recognize him as a top notch talmid chochom AND Posek?
I'm getting mixed up now:What were all those pics with him about, all the "chanufa" to him about?

Is it just a coincidence that you, a Lubab, have suddenly "decided" that he is no Posek and "burned his bridges with every single group".You sure it has nothing to do with his "psak"??

And ,please don't lie about him "not having a problem with משיח מן המתים" ok?
Also, nobody considers someone on the internet an apikores.Stop trying to minimize what R'Menashe said!
Now, run along, and don't forget to put on yout supersized Yechi kappel, with matching lapel flag

berl, crown heights said...

Another thing that was unexplained in the psak: what is the geder of the "chiuv to appoint a new Rebbe"? RMK doesn't exlain why it isn't enough al pi din to simply have local communal rabbonim, roshei yeshivoh, etc?

LF said...

U know who: Mainly your third point

new Rebbe now! said...

There is no "chiyuv" to appoint a new rebbe.A Rebbe today does not have a din "melech".What R'Klein is trying to bring out is that even after Moshe Rabeinu there was a chiyuv to appoint a Melech.Similarly after a leader passes away it's proper to appoint a succesor.
Obviously a chasidic group without a living rebbe is almost oxymoronic.

It's high time that Lubavitch decide upon a succesor.This won't be easy and won't be without rancor.It may even take years but if there is a will there is a way.
Chabad has been through splits before,Lubavitch has been without a rebbe for a period of time in it's earlier history.Nothing new in this case.

Yankle said...

"with all due respect - that RMK is an outsider, he doesn't understand the Chabad Dor Hashvi'i - or any generation for that matter - culture, so he can't really lecture them on they should run their own internal affairs."

You make shallow look so so deep!!

What can one expect. nebach.

zelig said...

Anyway it's getting harder to be a posek nowadays.First you need daled chelkei shulchan oruch, then you need "the fifth cheilek" now Hirshel Tzig anounces that that's not enough:You need to "understand dor hashvi'i"??
So a rov can see something which in his opinion is clearly against halochah, but he "needs to understand dor hashv'i"!!
What is this mumbo jumbo about?
Genug schoin.Hert oof mit meshugassen!

Maybe A Litvak said...

this is an old issue, why does Rabbi Klein address it now?

A belief in the meshichisity of an individual who lacks the 'cheskos Moshiach' requirements is by default a kefirah in the Melech Hamoshiach himself, and hence, apikorsis. What is the counter? Only the belief in the concept of Moshiach is dispositive insofar as apilkorsis is related, and not beleif in the actual Melech HaMoshiach?

Y said...

Hirshel, it's pretty obvious from his tshuvah that he is aiming it at a specific group of people.

He is saying that those who deny that the Rebbe prepared for the manhigus of Lubavitch afterwards, similar to Rabbeinu Kakadosh, is an apikoros because they are fiddling with Medrashim, just as they are apikorsim for declaring the Rebbe both to have passed and to be alive, for it fiddles with Medrash.

Considering that the Rebbe gave instructions for Manhigus: Aseh Lecho Rav, K'atzas yedidim, k'atzas rofim, Agudas Chasidei Chabad as manhigim ruchni'im, and the board of Merkos for the Mosdos, there is no question that the Rebbe prepared for this.

The true chiddush of his five page journey is only the first few lines, applying the Medrash that tells us that fiddling with Medrashim is apikorsus. He then goes on to give two examples of what these people do that exemplifies this.

OT Bochur said...

David, I'll start with the most thoughtful thing you wrote:

"run along, and don't forget to put on yout supersized Yechi kappel, with matching lapel flag"

That was apparently intended to be מלמד על הכלל כולו. Oh, and by the way, the last time I said "Yechi" predates the last time you opened a Gemara by just a little bit.

Now for the more notable "highlights":

"After all the years of kissing up to R'MKlein"

That goes a long way towards demonstrating your respect for R. Menashe. I'm sure his psak had a great impact on your views.

"After all the years of kissing up to R'MKlein, Lubavitcher suddenly do not recognize him as a top notch talmid chochom AND Posek?"

a) No. b) My point was kinda like about being directed to the hordes of internet junkies suddenly "citing" the "Posek" R. Menashe Klein's view. If they had no previous regard for him, then their sudden admiration for him just illustrates how brain-dead they all are.

"I'm getting mixed up now: What were all those pics with him about, all the "chanufa" to him about?"

כיון דאתינן להכי and you are - finally by your own admission - confused, I'll make my own contribution to the mix-up. If R. Menashe wrote that Kuntres'l about 13 years ago, how did he then proceed to attend all these events?

you, a Lubab, have suddenly "decided" that he is no Posek and "burned his bridges with every single group".You sure it has nothing to do with his "psak"??"

Actually, if you must know, having read many of his Teshuvos, and having been present at a few of his Shiurim, my attitude towards him has been respect mixed with pity. He doesn't subscribe to the classic Satmarer shitos (Eiruv was a notable example), and so he lost the Hungarian crowd. And his extreme and a bit over the board תמימות and "squareness" don't allow him to appeal to anyone else.

My opinion hasn't changed. The substance of this Teshuva mirrors that of many others. And his tactlessness while writing it is classic.

"And ,please don't lie about him "not having a problem with משיח מן המתים" ok?"

...האברבנאל וז"ל ואל יקשה עליך שיהיה מלך המשיח מן הקמין בתחייה, כי כבר נסתפקו על זה בפרק חלק ואמר רב אם מן חייא וכו' ע"כ ... כתב מפורש האברבנאל ז"ל שאל יקשה בעניך שיהיה מלך המשיח מן הקמים בתחייה, והיינו לאחר שיהיה תחיית המתים ויקומו ישיני עפר ואז יהיה אחד מהם משיח ... וכוונת האברבנאל הוא שאפשר במציאות שיהיה מלך המשיח מן הקמים בתחיית המתים.

"Also, nobody considers someone on the internet an apikores"

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"Stop trying to minimize what R'Menashe said!"

I'd try first to minimize what you're saying, which would go a long way towards making this blog a cleaner, nicer place.

"Schneur Z." said...

I love how the haters from Chabad try to put Rav Klein down. He is a posek. He is entitled to an opinion. He addresses a great deal of the "sources" the "mashpiim" use and he explains them clearly. The "mashpiim" are generally not talmidei chachomim and are certainly not on the part of Rav Klein.

EDITED

Isaac Balbin said...

It is only relevant to talk about Dor Hashvii if you mean to say that this concept moves conjecture from interpreting midroshim to some quasi halachic status.

Rav Menashe Klein's Tshuvos have and continue to be studied by any serious student of Halocho. There is no doubt about that whatsoever.

There is also no doubt that RMK was addressing himself al pi din. This wasn't some preconceived diatribe motivated by hate.

He clearly reacted to interpretations of midroshim and memros and felt that this attempt to ascribe to them a tkifus of Psak or Vaday was Megaleh Ponim Shelo Kahalocho. If it were about anyone less than the LR then he might have stopped there, however, he also felt that this made a mockery of the LR and as such was Bizuy and apikorsus and he felt his Psak needed to be made public to protect the Shem Kodesh of the LR.

Clearly, someone who says Yechi and is a new style am ho-oretz or a parrot isn't an apikores, he is a shoteh. However, the one who tries to sell such views as Daas Torah is skating on very thin ice. RMK points out that there is absolutely no Mesorah for the concept that a) he is alive in the sense that he is a living candidate, and b) he IS Moshiach given that it patently contradicts the Rambam.

So, according to RMK on what basis can a Talmid Chochom say Yechi? Mi Monifshach. If he is dead, he isn't Moshiach. If he is alive, you need to go to a doctor---or ask one of those who did the Tahareh.

The Dor Hashvii goes so far as to explain WHY someone would in desperation try to twist memros. RMK is saying that when one does do that, and backs it up with pamphlets that make it look like an oisygehalten deah, then this is the type of apikorsus described in the first two paragraphs of his Tshuva.

I find any discussion which tries to disqualify his reasoning on the basis that he is who he is, distasteful. Stop playing the man. Deal with the issue. His opinion doesn't become more important because he was a friend of Lubavitch. Rather, his friendship explains why he feels it is so important to protect the honour of the LR.

Let's not kid ourselves. When you walk the streets in Israel and see the signs everywhere and they are defaced and in a Reshus Horabim, this is honourable for an Ish Kodesh? I saw one of those vans with the LR face painted all over and involved in an accident. What is this? This is a Kidush Hashem?

We have idiots here in Melbourne who dress up as clowns, literally, with bells on their heads chanting yechi on the corner. One of them is apparently a Goy. This is not a bizayon of a great man? Bells on their hats like the court jester? This brings Geuloh? Which Gemorah is that in? Which Rambam?

Chabad has always had ideas which are "only for Anash". Perhaps this is one of those things. Those ideas are properly understood only by those who have their heads screwed on and are not shallow. Harboring some hope that Hakodosh Baruch Hu will decide to change his mind and enact Tchiyas Hameisim and then choose a live Moshiach who is the LR and keeping that thought amongst Chashuvei Anash is probably okay. Why did the LR command Rabbi Wolpe not to publish his booklet? What Chutzpah did Rav Wolpe have not to listen to his Rebbe, who in his eyes was Chezkas Moshiach? Where is the bittul?

That's not to say the campaign to bring geuloh quicker should not continue. It should go from strength to strength and all the snags with inbred hate should be encouraged by seeing the success and mesiras nefesh of their brothers.

A little bit of achdus goes a long way. RMK was attempting to bring his friends back into the fold.

Shmuel G,5Towns said...

Balbin,
Reading your post makes me think you haven't gotten over the vodka at the farbrengen.It reads like a drunkard has written it.
Yeah, I know you are not Lubavitch, just an apologist.

Isaac,
What is this about, for example:"felt his Psak needed to be made public to protect the Shem Kodesh of the LR."
Shem Kodesh (capitalized to too!)What is "Shem Kodesh"about ?Is it a deity? You couldn't keep it simple and and just say the LR's good name?Do you think it makes you sound more "chasidish" or more intelligent?

Vayter....
"His opinion doesn't become more important because he was a friend of Lubavitch. " And why not?Being a friend makes him less biased!Meaning that if a good friend is telling you this......

And how about this point(less)
"That's not to say the campaign to bring geuloh quicker should not continue. It should go from strength to strength and all the snags with inbred hate should be encouraged by seeing the success and mesiras nefesh of their brothers."
How did the "snags" become involved in this.Or is it just a way to ingratiate yourself with the Lubavitch crowd and show your "chasidishkait" (while still claimng you are not a Lubavitcher?!)

Oh, I missed this one too: "Chabad has always had ideas which are "only for Anash".":Is this mechanism the same as the "dor hashvi'i" defense with just another name??

Actually,I think you missed Rabbi Kleins point totally:He is not trying to defend the Rebbes name as his main point.He is worried that the ideas of one group in Lubavitch have totally crossed the line and are in deviance with principles of Orthodoxy.Additionally he founds the lack of a new leader against the grain of "hashkafic" Orthodoxy and lastly is worried that the obsession with Ohel can lead to it being objectified

anon3 said...

"Lastly is worried that the obsession with Ohel can lead to it being objectified"
How is this different then kever of Rashbi at Meron or kever Of Reb Nachmon at Uman? If anything these two instances,and there are more,are being "objectified" to a much greater degree then the Ohel of the Rebbe.

An Ailemesher said...

The technicalities of who can be moshiach is besides the point. Lubavitch in the recent 2 generations has changed Chabad chassidus from serving Hashem, davening long, contemplating his gadlus, to serving the Rebbe, davening fast and contemplating the gadlus of the Rebbe. It an obviously wrong hashkapha and has driven many bnei torah away from learning chassidus. The last lubavitcher Rebbe due to has gadlus, had the capability of conquering the torah world and spreading chassidus chaba"d among many tamidei chachomim but unfortunately chose the messianic path instead.

Anonymous said...

Anon3
Miron is a once a year yohrtzet.The Ohel is the venue for "letters to the Rebbe" faxes,. lchaims, mass lubavitch celebrations, not making any important decisions before going to the Ohel.
Hey,I'm trying to explain but you probably won't get it.You may awake from this "slumber" to see that the frum world has moved away from Lubavitch in extreme ways.As it is Lubavitch has very little interaction with other frum Jews.
R'Menashe Klein is the one wo raises the problem of the Ohel being objectified, not me.
"What would Rabbi Rivkin say", I don't think he'd be happy, but what would he know he was not a "dor hashvi'inik

anon3 said...

"the frum world has moved away from Lubavitch in extreme ways.As it is Lubavitch has very little interaction with other frum Jews."
Just as the non Jewish world "has moved away" from Judaism(or Israel.Their both interchangeable in our time sad to say)so what does that prove?Do we waver in our belief because of this? How's about the fact that that most Jews in the world have moved away from Torah Judaism does that diminish our emunah in any way or c'v prove that we're wrong?
Don't get me wrong I am neither a Meshichist nor do I subscribe to much of what takes place at the Ohel, but hey that's me.
The frum world moved away from Lubavitch in the sixties,seventies and eighties when the Rebbe came out with his call for kiruv and his Mivtzoim and look at the frum world now.

Isaac Balbin said...

Shmuel G, thanks for your gratuitous insults. Did you find those in a Sefer Mussar or was it a Sefer Chassidus?

I'll be brief. The last farbrengen I attended was on Shabbos in memory of a Yohrtzeit. I didn't have a drink. I wrote this on Sunday night. Vodka? Perhaps in your mind. Not mine.

Shem Kodesh is an apt phrase in keeping with the feelings clearly within the Tshuva.

His opinion is important for the TOICHEN of the argument not because of his friendship or otherwise with Chabad. This is a Psak Din. Did you learn that friendship is what drives the acceptance or otherwise of a halachic view?

If you can't see the connection to snags, I'll make it simpler. The snag will be as biased as the lubavitcher here. The snag may buy the argument because it disenfranchises a chabad position, not because of toichen. The Meshichist will disavow the argument because it disenfranchises chabad, also not because of toichen.

If you think that RMK isn't defending the LRs name you must have a different set of glasses to me. He defends his name and is reverential about the life time of achievements.

In context, the section about appointing a new leader is clearly aimed at showing that when a Manhig passes on, the people moved to a new Manhig and didn't consider the previous Manhig their Rebbe B'Gashmius. From what I know the LR gave precise instructions as to how his Chassidim should consult with Rabonim after his passing on. I don't see anything that RMK wrote which would invalidate that approach. At the same time, RMK is saying that they need to move on! Many only consult igros instead.

Leroy said...

"The technicalities of who can be moshiach is besides the point. Lubavitch in the recent 2 generations has changed Chabad chassidus from serving Hashem, davening long, contemplating his gadlus, to serving the Rebbe, davening fast and contemplating the gadlus of the Rebbe. It an obviously wrong hashkapha and has driven many bnei torah away from learning chassidus. The last lubavitcher Rebbe due to has gadlus, had the capability of conquering the torah world and spreading chassidus chaba"d among many tamidei chachomim but unfortunately chose the messianic path instead"
taka....a point but maybe the Rebbe saw that the average gavra would not be able to have kelim for the chevtza.

OT Bochur said...

Hirshel Tzig, I apologize for submitting a comment which you deemed beneath the standards of this blog. I had no ill intention in mind - it was more along the lines of the Maamar Chazal prominently displayed in the description in the blog header.

The point it might have made, was that R. Menashe is lacking the feeling for context and what is appropriate. Like that Teshuva, some of his views are predicated on the fact that ehr chapt nisht, and thus he ends up looking foolish.

Again, I apologize.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

apology accepted.

poshut said...

OT Bochur, vos chapt ehr nit?

As a Lubavitcher, I see no problem with anything he wrote. And I'm not the onlt one.

LF said...

Poshut: Is that in fact the case?Is there a percentage (even 1%)of Lubavitchers who are looking to appoint a new rebbe ?

Friendly anonymous said...

Rather than looking for a new Rebbe, we should be looking to transition to a new mode of leadership, now that the era of nevua has ceased from Lubavitch.

It might be well to study the historical transition from shofet to novi to melech.

former ungvar neighbor said...

Hirshele,

as a constant reader of your blog, and as a shtikel ungvarer myself, I just dont understand you.

You, who always tries to say things as they are, are impressed by RMK??

I don't deny az er kun lernen; he is just acting so wacky sometimes.
I am not only talking about his rhetoric b'nogea Israel which mirors Meir Kahana. By every flare up of tensions in Israel, he is busy how there are enough bullets for all arabs.

I am reffering to how he makes himself meshuga with his veisse & guldene bekitches; screaming by davening and jumping by kabules shabos.

mamesh the kind of rebbee you keep on making fun of here. and thats without yichus...

And thats all even before we start discussing why he currently can't come back from Israel to the states...vd"l.

Maybe when you were there the place was more normal. currently, besides DAF's meshugasen of changing the layout bi-monthly, AK walking in from the right door only to walk back out of the left door, Mr./Rabbi G becoming more & more meshuga of boredoom, and R' Shalom who by now -nebech- totaly lost it, it has nothing to offer.

BTW I have nothing with lubavitch. if anything I am negatively disposed towards them.

Arnel said...

I have no problem with Mitzvah Tanks, or Tefillin Stations, but in my [humble] opinion, where Chabad went wrong was, first of all they went Rebbe-crazy. Everything is about the Rebbe, the Rebbe this, the Rebbe that, it's all about the Rebbe instead of about God and Judaism, in fact they worship him so much it's hard to distinguish between Meshichistim and Christians.

Secondly, instead of bringing their new recruits up to their level, they lowered their own standards in order to better suit the modern society they are trying to reach out to. The result was, instead of Lubavitch becoming a huge Chassidik group on par with Satmar, or Gur, they separated themselves from the mainstream Chassidim and became their own quasi religion. I've said this before to Lubabs and they get very defensive, but it's true, their standards, in Tznius for example, are not even in the same league as those of mainstream Chassidism. Much like Democrats, who strive to make everybody equally poor - unlike Republicans who want to make every body equally rich - (neither are unsuccessful), they've lowered themselves to the level of the people they were supposed to be raising up. But enough about that.

garnel said...

"I am not only talking about his rhetoric b'nogea Israel which mirors Meir Kahana. By every flare up of tensions in Israel, he is busy how there are enough bullets for all arabs."

Listen,
He is a holocaust survivor.People like that have huge pride in Israel.(unless they took the extreme Satmar stance)since they realize that "bderech hateva" there could not have been a holocaust if there had been a place for Jews to go to.Before the Nazis came up with their final solution, they tried to get the Jews to leave.The problem was nobody would take them, including America,Palestine under the British Mandate etc. so now that he sees Israel "committing suicide" in his mind (I happen to disagree,I'm just explaining his rationale)he goes crazy.The Lubavitcher, though he himself did not go through the Holocaust, but his parents stuck in Europe, brother killed etc also was very much into Jewish pride and the ability to defend themselves.That's why he always talked in army terms:Tzivos Hashem,"chayal" etc.That's why he was very militant in regard to Israel and giving up land to the enemy which showed weakness.
R'Menashe and the Rebbe had this in common, so why do you think it would alienate Hirshel as a Lubavitcher?
I don't agree with misguided miltancy, but I don't have the perspective of a Holocaust

david said...

I cannot believe that somehow we are having an argument with people who believe that a man who passed away 15 years ago is alive.And The Messiah.

What happened to Chabad and what were the first signs of this psychosis? I'm sure this will be studied in Universities.

Anonymous said...

The vast majority of Lubavitchers do not believe the Rebbe is alive in the literal sense at all.
I can't see anything wrong with believing that the rebbe will be resurrected and then be Moshiach (as many lubavitchers believe) although I believe this to be unlikely although a possibility.
Even in RMKs teshuva he does not rule out such a possibility nor does he negate those who believe so.

Akiva said...

Anon2:230pm
Why would you not see anything wrong with a whole bunch of people believing with certainty, mind you,in something which you hold is very unlikely?
According to R'Menashe Klein, Moshiach min hameisim can only be a case of someone being Moshiach after techiyas hameisim.
If Lubavitcher were candid about their beliefs, i.e a minority opinion (maybe...)that their rebbe could be moshiach.Nu.Ok. (maybe...)
But to be screaming this charade from every rooftop?Even the "normal" ones.
C'mon.
Btw, the "dor hashvi'i" basis for this "halacha" is plain gobbledygook.There is no such thing as "dor hashvi'i halacha".Dor Hashvi'i is meshichist (and other charlatans...)way of explaining a starnge practice which has no basis

UmGishreberh Raid said...

Their making a messiah out of him is really a manifestation of worship. They really want to make a deity out of him, yet they are unfortantely limited by the Torah. This is the closest they can get to that and obviously, a segment of them, took it to the next logical step.

Maybe A Litvak said...

This is the classical scenario of a bechina of a rachmon on an aczur...

One who fails to notice the existence of a risus hurabim, mistankely thinks that Chabad is a reshus harabim

One who makes a (somewhat) seerfouls zikaron of those who passed on, fails to make a proper zikaron for a different person who passed on

Maybe A Litvak said...

The vast majority of Lubavitchers do not believe the Rebbe is alive in the literal sense at all.
I can't see anything wrong with believing that the rebbe will be resurrected and then be Moshiach (as many lubavitchers believe) although I believe this to be unlikely although a possibility.
Even in RMKs teshuva he does not rule out such a possibility nor does he negate those who believe so.

Monday, May 11, 2009 2:30:00 PM

The omission is consistent with a tacticul attempt that his dvurim would be miskabel. If he would've written anything slightly disparaging about the Rebbe, it would 'shut off' his attended audienc.e
(No, I am not implying that he thinks disparagely of the Rebbe or that he was successful at 'getting through' to anyone

Anonymous said...

How can a halachist say that al Pi torah you have to crown a Rebbe? its not a halachic function, a Rav was picked in Crown Heights as in other Chabad centers

Anonymous said...

I despise the Mescichisten, but Rav Klien has no good sources from a Halachic viewpoints

Isaac Balbin said...

How can a halachist say that al Pi torah you have to crown a Rebbe? its not a halachic functionSom Tosim Lecho Melech. It's a Reshus, to be true, so that there is only a Chiyuv if you want a Melech. For a Chosid, his Rebbe has a din melech. However, the chosid who considers his Rebbe "still here" will say that there is no need for another. RMK was saying that if you want a "Melech" then you should appoint one.

Anonymous said...

Issac
Its good for shabos after the Chulent but it still no halacha, his whole teshuva is weak, whatever he says Volpo can say opposite the Shulchan Oruch had nothing to say on this matter, so it is reshus harabim (derobonan according to Klien)with room for every mhelach Nario Nairo upashtai

david said...

Isaac,
What are you blabbering about?
Appointing a King is a "reshus"?
Well,I don't know whether, you know that it's actually a "chiyuv"one of the Tarya'g mitzvos nothing to do whether you "want" or don't.Actually this is one of the tree mitzvos they were commanded to do upon entering Eretz Yisroel
Maybe you meant that appointing a rebbe is not a "chiyuv" since it's not really the same as a "king"?If so how have you answered the question posed, i.e since appointing a rebbe is not a halachik function, why do you have to?
What did you answer that "since for a chosid a rebbe has a din melech"? A rebbe does not have a "din melech"!

Gibberish

berl, crown heights said...

david,
Isaac was simply trying to explain why in a HALACHIC TESHUVOH, Rav Menashe Klein chose to address this non-halachic issue. Any chance your feeble moronic mind can grasp this distinction? Didn't think so...

Friendly Anonymous said...

Most Lubavitchers will not accept a new Rebbe whose capabilities are limited to "asher yeitzei lifneihem va'asher yovoi lifneihem". The candidate requires a lot more talent than that.

nearby said...

Re Ungvar - also Zichron kedoishim square, Eli Wiesel, and the Roish Hakuhul driving around with a ZKEDOSH license plate.

david said...

"Any chance your feeble moronic mind can grasp this distinction? Didn't think so..."

Sir,
You are calling me a moron, though you belong to a community where a large percentage including friends, neighbors relatives and maybe even yourself are addressed by this teshuva!
Fascinating example of pot calling frying pan black.


N.B Since you are so smart, maybe you would be able to explain the Balbin gibberish? Specifically this :"For a Chosid, his Rebbe has a din melech. However, the chosid who considers his Rebbe "still here" will say that there is no need for another. RMK was saying that if you want a "Melech" then you should appoint one."

DD said...

There were some prominent Chassidim who spoke in favor of appointing a new Rebbe. like Yosel Winberg, Weinberg from S.A. Rabbi Fogelman, Rabbi Michoel Titelboum, Ephryim Pekarsky.

The interesting thing is that had a new Rebbe been appointed, Aguch, Merkos, head Shluchim, Badatz would have lost most of their power.

And the fact is that, back than, they were the only ones who had the power to appoint a New Rebbe.

in other words, I’m not so sure that the decision to move forward without a rebbe was Solely objective

david said...

DD,
I don't know the details of what you report which I imagine took place shortly after the Rebbe passed away.I would not be surprised that some chasidim, despite their pain realized that this cycle of appointing a new leader is intrinsic to the success of a Chasidic movement.

What you cite that had a new leader been appointed many of the well entrenched bureaucrats would have lost their status and maybe even jobs is quite compelling.
I remember hearing that in the early days after R'Yoel Teitelbaum passed away, without a scion, there was a push to not appoint a new rebbe but let the chassides be run by a "board of directors".
Sounds like we have a similar scenario here

יחי המלך said...

yossi schneerson from LA would make a most aprpriate rebbe, he has all the qualities you need in a rebbe with none of the chesronos of a בנש"ק
יחי המלך

עד כדי כך איז ער ראוי וואל סהאט אים קיינמאל נישט אנגעפאלין

Anonymous said...

RMk went further to clarify another problem with beleif the Rebbe is for sure certain mashiach while he does not deny the possibility if that happens after techiyat hamessim, he writes "... וכל האומר על מי שאינו משיח לפי ההגדרה שישלנו, מלבד שהוא שקרן ומסית ומדיח, הרי הוא מחליש האמונה בישראל וכופר במשיח האמיתי בביאתו ובהצלחתו והצלחת כלל ישראל....":

He clarifies to all that there is no room to identify with certainty that ploni is moshiach only according to the gedorim given by rambam is wrong is a shakran and messis umediach and is denying in the real mashiach...

Yisroel said...

To all the posters trying to change Lubavitchers minds,
There is nothing that you can do or say that will change their minds.
Give it up.
They are totally mechutz lamachaneh

Isaac Balbin said...

David,
In contradistinction to your vituperative response, I'll try to observe a modicum of דרך ארץ

It is a machlokes rishonim and achronim whether the din of appointing a melech depends on whether the people want a melech. Even the Ramban who strongly advocates it as a Mitzvah (after Kibbush etc) is interpreted by many as holding that the end of that pasuk implies that the people need to ask for it.

Clearly, there isn't a mitzvah now to appoint a Melech in the traditional sense. In that sense, it is a reshus of course, and as far as I can tell there is absolutely no issur in appointing a "Melech" if the people desire this type of שררה over them.

Clearly, the function of a Melech in the traditional sense is separate to that of Shoftim and Shotrim. It is primarily a position through which Ruchniyus and Torah should be imparted to the people.

For a Chossid, this reshus clearly translates into their appointment of a Manhig, as opposed to an Av Beis Din or Zayin Tuvei HoIr etc

In that context and I know you don't accept that context as you appear to be at least non chassidic RMK noting that it is appropriate that Manhigus like Malchus ought to be passed on when/if a Manhig goes to Olom HoEmes, makes sense.

Now, for Chassidim in general, this is de jure. Indeed, sometimes it means that two manhigim function due to a split (as in Satmer). It was also de jure for Chabad until the last Rebbe was accepted by the majority of chabad chassidim.

For Chabad, it is different. The concept of Dor HaShevii is ingrained in their teachings, and as such it goes a long way to explaining why they don't want a new Rebbe. Whether things stay that way, who knows.

You know, it might be appropriate for you to try and sensitise yourself to different shitos, even if you don't subscribe to them. The problem with Orthodoxy today is that it has take conformity to a Shita as canon, but I digress.

You will undoubtedly limit your halachic radar to "Rav HaMuvhak" or its modern transmogrification to "Daas Torah". That's fine with me. It does not make sense though for you to dilute the message of RMK on the basis that the Rambam doesn't mention in Hilchos Melochim that one ought not to be Kafuf to a Tzadik Midin Daas Torah.

Who do you think RMK is writing to? It's not you.

The whole concept of "governance" over a people or a subset of people is something that would depend on the will of the people. If it helps them be better Ovdei Hashem, why does it bother you so much? Yes, it can cause problems when you have people like Sokolowsky and his type expressing things that would send RMK into a real tizz.

Back to the actual inyan: there are those who are Medayek, for instance, that the Rambam gives a definition of who is not Moshiach Vaday by mentioning Ben Koziba. Why would the Rambam mention this, if not to tell us that Rabbi Akiva didn't continue thinking that Ben Koziba would come back in Techiyas HaMeisim as Moshiach? One can't say it's because Bar Kochba was killed. Do we have a Mesorah/Mekor to tell us that those who are killed are ineligible for Tchiyas Hameisim lefi shitosom?

Have a nice chulent this shabbos, anonymous.

anon3 said...

"To all the posters trying to change Lubavitchers minds,
There is nothing that you can do or say that will change their minds.
Give it up.
They are totally mechutz lamacneh"
Can you please quote one poster on this chain of posts that said something that was "mechutz lamacneh" or pro meshichist? I assume that your "intelligent" and "perceptive" statement was a well thought out idea rather then the usual knee jerk reaction of Lubavitch "lovers".

Anonymous said...

"Can you please quote one poster on this chain of posts that said something that was "mechutz lamacneh" or pro meshichist? "

Relax there, Bubba. Our erstwhile troll is referring to the narrowly drawn "macneh" of the "bnei teyreh", not of Yiddishkeit. Ashreinu she lo sam chelkeinu kaheim...

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Everything is about the Rebbe, the Rebbe this, the Rebbe that, it's all about the Rebbe instead of about God and Judaism

Many latter day misnagdim (MO) would say this about all chassidim and even some litvaks. It's nothing more than an argument in degree.

Isaac, whether som tosim alecha melech is a reshus or a chov is machlokes RaMBaM and RaMBaN on that possuk. I find it ironic that even though lubavitchers hold with the RaMBaN regarding everything else to do with Moshiach, they take the RaMBaM's stand that it is a chov.

Berl said...

Modeh,
As usual, you put to many beans in your cholent on shabbos......


"I find it ironic that even though lubavitchers hold with the RaMBaN regarding everything else to do with Moshiach, they take the RaMBaM's stand that it is a chov."

Your statement is totally baseless.
Lubavitch does not hold of Ramban re:Moshiach, The Rebbe actually stated thaT rAMBAM IS THE HALACHIK DECISOR, but anyway what Ramba'n are you talking about at all??Stam a baal dimyon.
Also where do you see that they hold like Rambam that it's a "chov" to appoint a king?Again stam a ignorant, baseless statement

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Ah, the stink of yeshivishe am haartzus. It brings back memories.

The rebbe also said for thirty plus years that his Father in law was moshiach. They found a way around that too.

As for where they hold like RaMBaN, he argues on the RaMBaM by saying all the abrogations of teva that the gemara and medrash mention will actually happen in yemos hamoshiach. If you ever heard a shliach speak instead of bashing from a distance, you would know that they talk about these abrogations nonstop.

As for why I say that they hold it's a chov, this might be a mistaken assumption on my part, but why else would they make a such a big hock about it?

And my cholent was just fine, thanks for your concern.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

c'mon Tzig. Let Berl's comment through.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Berl's comment went through a while ago.

anon3 said...

"Everything is about the Rebbe, the Rebbe this, the Rebbe that, it's all about the Rebbe instead of about God and Judaism"
Well then, the Litvakes must have taken their cue from Lubavitch."everything is about the Rosh Hayeshiva The RH this,the RH that,it's all about the RH instead instead of G_D and Judaisim"
Another thing they've" stolen" from Lubavitch.

fakewood inc. said...

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=3562

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I meant his response to me. Or did he decide to go learn a bit first?

anon3: All too true.

kallt said...

Anon3
Am I to understand that according to you the Lutvacks will soon be calling Der Ros Yesiveh "Boreinu"?

The Lutvakes "need" to take their cue from Lubavitch? Why, there have not been rabbis there that they need to "steal ideas".C'mon now.

Your uncle needed a job by the 'Lutvakes' that's what I know

Anonymous said...

Anon 3
it looks like you haven't read hebrew Yated ever

Isaac Balbin said...

Modeh BeMiktzas: There are those who contend that even the Rambam will hold it's only a Mitzvah if the people actually want a Melech. It's a drey, yes.

anon3 said...

"it looks like you haven't read hebrew Yated ever"
Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole,ever.

Anonymous said...

I hope Rav Kliens Eiruv heter against reb moshe has more gravitas red meat, since this teshuva is Meod kalosh

Proud to be Lubavitch said...

3 QUESTIONS 4RMK
when a mishichist asked him to proove that moshiach cant be "min hameisim" he squirmed!!!!!

then the m. asked, did you ever find a makor that actually predicts that noshiach will be NISGALEH, NICHSEH, CHOIZER VNISGALEH? ...again nisht gelaint!! ...he never read that either!!!

MY FRIENDS THIS IS A MAN, WHO KNOWS VERY VERY LITTLE on the subject!

any 8th grader in OT. can STUMP this self proclaimed ONOV

HIS INSIDE CIRCLE JUST SUCEEDED TO EXPOSE AND HUMILIATE HIS GADLUS ON THE WORLD STAGE

Proud to be Lubavitch said...

IF RK WAS LOOKING FOR THE EMES!, HE'D ARRANGE TO MEET WITH RABBONIM AND SCHOLARS, WHO DIFFER FROM HIS CONCLUSIONS!

HIS CHOICE TO MEET WITH A CONVENIENT CONTACT RATHER THAN SOMEONE WHO IS WELL VERSED IN THE SUBJECT AT HAND, HM! LTES JUST SAY THAT IT IS VERY SUSPICIOUS!

ONE WHO SEEKS THE TRUTH, DOSENT CHOOSE A SYMBOLIC PUPPET

BUT IS BRAVE ENOUGH TO MEET WITH THOSE WITHIN CHABAD WHO ARE BOTH MESHICHIST AND SCHOLARLY.
LETS SEE IF HE IS BRAVE ENOUGH TO INVITE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING, RABBONIM, MASHPYIM:
RABBI SHLOMO MAJESKY
RABBI MANGEL
RABBI BLUMING
RABBI BELL
RABBI CHARITONOW
RABBI G. AVTZON
RABBI MILLER
RABBI WAGNER
RABBI TUREN
RABBI KORF
RABBI KALMENSON
RABBI BUTMAN
RABBI ASHKENAZI
RABBI ULMAN
RABBI WOLFSON
RABBI COHEN
RABBI RASKIN
RABBI WOLF
EVEN RABBI I SCHOCHET

the above lists esteemed rabbonim, dayanim, and scholars who are all well versed on the torah sources pertaining to this matter, and when confronted with a straight forward question, "does the belief in the rebbe as moshiach have support from daas torah?" the answer (more or less vocal) yes, when the question of is there a torah president for the belief that the rebbe is alive despite the appearance of death, the answer again is yes (pointing to many examples through out the torah, ranging from the dor hamidbor's convincing appearance of moshe's death, to the rebbe's take on yakov avinu, and a number of characters described in talmud bavli. )

the sad reality is that rabbi k, may be well versed in routine halachic questions, but not very well steeped in other subjects which do not frequent his expertise.

Isaac Balbin said...

In what way is it Meod kalosh?

fakewood inc. said...

this is a list of whack jobs.

Anonymous said...

Expecting a Rabbi to consult with Dor 7 sources in order to rule on a general Jewish issue is silly.

anon3 said...

"kallt said...
Anon3
Am I to understand that according to you the Lutvacks will soon be calling Der Ros Yesiveh "Boreinu"?"
Kishmo kain hu.Must be a "kallt" blutege Litvak laidik gayir who has nothing to write about so he scrapes the bottom of the barrel with some accusation that even the most extreme of the Meshichiten don't espouse with one or two exceptions.
Yes, I definitely think it's more probable that the Litveshe tzeilim kep or tzeilim hertzer(either description fits them to a T) are more likely to call their Roshei Yeshivos "Boirenu".Feel better?
Torah Vedaas was never really a Litveshe Yeshiva.If you look at it's Roster of Roshei Yeshiva both past and present it was split down the middle.Rav Schor,Rav Wolfson, Rav Sekula (The Sadivner Rov),Rav Rivkin and others were and are certainly not Litvaks.In Fact Tanya shiurim used to be part of the curriculum.Before you come up with another "brain storm" I suggest that you brush up on your history knowledge un hak nisht kein tchainik.If you have nothing to write about then some oisgetrachte drek then don't write anything.

Kallt said...

Anon3
You sound angry, take a chill pill,k?

About Torah Voda'as:Since the chasidic side "won" Tora Vodaas has not recovered.Fact:Torah Vodaas, has few $ problems, their "only" problem is that they have no talmidim.
A friends son who attended a number of years ago, for a short time, told me that R'Savitzky a world class talmid chochom, had about 11 boys in his shiur!

Lakewood which started many years after Tora Vodaas has an enrollment of five thousand!

Another such "victory" for Tora Vodaas puts it out of business!

Hey, btw, knew your uncle well, he'd be the angriest of all! Knowing Lubavitch when "dor hashsihi" was still very much under wraps,when "dor hachamishi" was a top notch talmid chochom seeing the scary downward spiraling really affected him.You also know what precipitated his passing, right?

Proud to be Lubavitch said...

Rabbi Klein NEBACH NEBACH
MOST OF YOU ARE MISSING 1 IMPORTANT THING!!!

JEWS FOLLOW DAAS TORAH,

TO REB MENASHEH "hakotton"

and all u posting your opinions:

PLEASE PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!

LEARN THE "TORAH-SOURCES" ON THE SUBJECT
(for a chossid: include Sichos NUN ALEF+)

turn down your fear of the truth!!

all the sources paint a very straight forward picture!

the Rebbeh is in a state of "NICHSEH" as predicted in numerous sources, and this piriod of Galus is the Last stance before the stage of "Chizer-VNisgaleh"

do the research!!!!!!


perhaps b/c of ppl like R M Klein, the Rebbeh insisted that HIS chasidim all KNOW THE SUBJECT "INYANE GELUA" VERY WELL

he may be very learned in general, yet any 13yr old Oholei Tora or Brynwa Talmid can wipe the floor with these "gedolim re Inyonei moshiach vGeula!!

its actually quite entertainnig to watch a debate between a Lubavitcher bochur, and any "learned snag"!! lol


R'Hirschel, please stop being like the meraglim גם בני ענקים ראינו שם ונהיה בעינינו כחגבים וכן היינו בעיניהם.Where is your Lubavitch pride? The Rebbe is Nossi Hador everyone agrees,soon everyone will see the hisgalus of The Rebbe and be pulled out of the golus even screeming and yeling!NOW,NOW!!

Proud to be LUBAVITCH! said...

ALL the people who are trying to spred lies about the Rebbe chas vesholom not being Moshiach!!!!
AND ALL THE LUBAVITCHER TRYING TO FIND FAVER, LIKE THE MA YOFISNIKES!
You know the truth, how are you going to look into the eyes of the REBBE AFTER HES HISGALUS?!!!!

anon3 said...

Kalt
The "wheel of fortune" dreit zich as far as Yeshivas are concerned. The downturn of Torah Vedas began with the fallout between Rav Shorr and Reb Yakov.
Telz which was once the pride and Joy of the Yeshiveshe velt in the US is now but a shadow of it's former greatness.Poniviez, the great bastion of Torah in EY has turned into an arena for physical altercations.Der redel dreit zich.One can only guess what Lakewood will look like in the future.
As to what precipitated Rav Rivkins ptirah,don't believe every yentishe bubbe maiseh you hear and I'm speaking with an insiders knowledge.There are those that have an agenda in spreading such tales.Nor Der Aibeshter vaist what precipitated his demise.
As to the other points you bring up about Rav Rivkin, I don't think that a blog site is the place to discuss issues that I know he wouldn't want to to be brought out into the public sphere.

anon3 said...

Proud to be Lubavitch
I think that your point has been made.Don't belabor it.Typing in upper case does not add any validity to your posts neither does repitition.Genug shoin.

Maybe A Litvak said...

anon3
re: Telz and Torah V'daas: both are not compatible for this century, due to the proliferation of yishivishkeit/Briskishness

Anonymous said...

MAL
Telz and Ponovizh don"t suffer from the brisk syndrome, Phily exists despite brisk, they are suffering from the mad Korach disease power and money its unfortunately part of our great history

Anonymous said...

You really think that Mulla Butman understand anything thats written in hebrew letters better then Rav Klien?

Maybe A Litvak said...

Anon
the Telzer Torah is not in style and the suldaten/quasi bootcamp mentality is not compatible with the needs of the current teenagers.

Anonymous said...

MAL
I am not familiar with all of the Telzer Torah but Rav Gifters torah I saw alot and you see real gadlus in the whole of torah not just the typical Yeshiveshe Ried, A couple of years ago I saw the family begging for funds to print his torah.

Anonymous said...

Proud to Be
Since you know all these great people, please ask them how did the Rebbe have a real halachcic Din Melech ?( I am talking before Zach Adar )Example #1 did he have a sefer torah with him all the times, Example #2 did he ever kill a mored Bemaclchus ? how come he didn"t kill Barry Gurarie?

Maybe A Litvak said...

Anon
It was on lomdus? I have yet to see that
It was a bizayon that 8th graders in Darchey had to raise funds to put out the pirush Al HaTorah.
The old Shiurey Daas that are printed are very good; much more hoyche and pnimiusesque than anything else being printed.
Do you know the exact date when they stopped giving S'D over there and started giving stahm shmuezen?

Anonymous said...

MAL
All the shmussen today are more hot air then red meat.There is Moshe Shapira and the wannabe Wientraub that is a confused soul.

Maybe A Litvak said...

R' Moshe is lmaylah. He knows a velt in all miktzoyas as is evident from his seforim, (It is not a lift of Sfas Emes using bombastic goyishe literery styles, V'dal V'dal) they loved him in Stamford when he was there and he doesn't have to shem zich in nigleh.
Plus, he is normal and has sechel (nonwithstanding the chabad house incident)
Personally, I like his Torah, becuase the machshuvuh is mushpah from the lomdus, not vice versa (unlike others, V'dal)


I don't know about R' Elya besides for the fact that personally he is upbeat and has simchas hachayim; a contrast to the impression one gets from veytens.

(BTW, R' Moshe's anti-Slifkin maymar was brilliant; he topped uhn to the tumah of MO perfectly)

Joe in Australia said...

when a mishichist asked him to proove that moshiach cant be "min hameisim" he squirmed!!!!!Are you sure he wasn't squirming at the sight of the yellow T-shirt with the Rebbe's face on it?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

This fellow "proud to be lubavitch" is obviously a satire. My guess is it's Burech come again. Tzig efsher an IP log?

RE the current topic: Torah Vedaas(sic) did not go down the tubes because the chassidish side won in the beis medrash. It went down because of the mesivta and because they dropped Reb Shraga Feivels derech which made them unique. A short list including some of what he taught:
Tanya:
Moreh Nebuchim
R' Hirsch (both Chorev and al hatorah)
chovos halevavos
*gasp*tanach*gasp*
No bochur will learn these sfarim during seder if ever.

CR said...

"This fellow "proud to be lubavitch" is obviously a satire."

The Shpitz Meshichisten are caricatures of themselves. They ARE their own satire.

I heard R. Shlomo Majeski speak on the Chai veKayam matter a few years back and he hedged his statements very heavily with "KeVayachol" and similar disclaimers. He presented an interesting pilpul and helped put the Chosid's post-Gimel-Tammuz attitude thing in perspective. Still, he was far from proffering any Halachic Chiddushim.

Friendly said...

This fellow "proud to be lubavitch" is obviously a satire
-----------------------------------
Go to any of the many Lubavitch sites such as ChabadOnLine,Shturem,Crownheights.info both in English and Hebrew and see that "proud to be Lubavitch" is par for the course, especially about this psak which was debated very passionately.

Proud to be Lubavitch said...

TO ALL U ANTI-S
READING A SICHA HEAR AND A SICHA THERE (HALEVAY U EVEN READ THE ENTIRE SICHA)
99.999999% OF YOUR QUESTION ARE BLATENTLY OUT OF IGNORANCE OF THE REBBE'S OWN WORDS!!!

IF U TRULY WISH TO KNOW THE EMES FOR YOU SELF! (dont be scared! you can do what Manis Friedman does and keep it to yourself)
YOU NEED ONLY TO DO WHAT A CHOSSID DOES:
A) WHERE DOES A CHOSSID SEARCH FOR THE EMES (hint Sichos)
B) WHAT KIND OF CHOSSID DOESN'T BECOME "BUKKY" (FLUENT) IN THE REBBE'S SICHOS!
C) WHICH CHOSSID DOSENT FOLLOW THE REBBE'S REQUEST ("ha-derech hayeshara") TO OPEN YOUR EYES, BY LEARMING INYONEI GEULA U'MOSHIACH"

AGAIN THE REBBEH HAD GOOD REASON TO BEG AND BEG US TO LEARN THIS TOP WELL! (torah sources are very useful when talking to ppl like RMK)

Friendly Anonymous said...

I guess that spell-check doesn't work in caps

Anonymous said...

to proud,

If you want to be proud start learning period, then you will realize that the Rebbe never said that his FIL is the LITERAL mashiach. Only am haratzim gmurim with little kool aid and a tip of misinformationcould have come up with such a new religion.

Anonymous said...

Proud
Can u please stop sending everybody to the sichos and start answering the questions Legufoi Shel Inyan? Its a long shabos find your self Reb sholom Charotonev etc.. and let them answer, stop screaming sichos sichos sichos, start looking in the sefer already

Anonymous said...

As far as I know Volpo, he definitely is working on a response for Rav Klien, Volpo loves a polemic even the Rebbe couldn"t stop him, eventough he rebuked him in front of close to 1000 people, but this mechutzef always found a new twist that deep deep the Rebbe wants it even stronger.

proud to be Lubavitch! said...

Hear are some pertinent CHAZALs to help clear up the confusion:

CHAZAL: Dor Moshiach's neshamos are gilgulim of Dor Hamidbar.

CHAZAL: Dor Acharon's Emuna (b'divrei moshe) will be tested as was Dor Rishon's fath

CHAZAL: Geulas Moshiach will follow the same pattern as Geulas Mitzrayim.

CHAZAL: Moshe Rabeinu proclaims the good news "pokod pokadety"

CHAZAL: Moshe's words fall on deaf ears! Most of bnei yisroel don't believe moshe! Only a handful take his words literally!

CHAZAL: Mosheh takes off, He disappears, Galus then gets even darker, more difficult...

CHAZAL: Most jews disbelieved HIS words bc of the continued and increased darkness of Galus, and the apparent absence off moshe

CHAZAL: Suddenly Moshe Returns, and leads the jews out of Galus,

CHAZAL: NOW ALL jews believed!

CHAZAL: the same pattern will unfold b'Dor Acharon, with the Revelation of Moshiach and the ultimate Geulah

CHAZAL: (stage of NIGLA ) first moshiach is be revealed, but on a small scale. at that time he will proclaim "anovim higia zman geulaschem"

CHAZAL: (stage NICHSA) Most jews will not believed HIS words or recognize him as THE REAL MOSHIACH bc of the continued and increased darkness of Galus, and the apparent absence off moshe,

CHAZAL: bc of the darkness, this stage is also described as the time when, "yisbareru v'yislabnu" who truly has faith and who doesn't will be clarified and crystallized,

CHAZAL: also in this final stage before the Complete Hisgalus, "Cherfu Ikvos M'Shichecho" the ones to resist and combat moshiach will be non other than BIG Rabbis Chasidim with long-white-beards,

CHAZAL: (stage CHOZER VNISGALEH) Suddenly Moshiach Returns, and leads the jews out of Galus,

CHAZAL: NOW ALL BELIEVE!

FACT: the Rebbeh Proclaimed "anovim higia zman geulaschem"

AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, SORY FOR CUTTING SHORT, BUT IT IS EREV SHABBOS AND I MUST GET THE CHULLENT GOING! TO BE CONTINUED BLN!

in the mean time start a daily hachlata to learn and become BUKKY in this topic, after all the Rebbeh begged us to,
derech hayeshara... this will also help fulfill the Rebbe's campaign open your eyes!

Isaac Balbin said...

http://bit.ly/15h4VA

dovy said...

Telz did not die of natural causes, it was killed by the Rasha gamur ZG.
Torah Vadas' downfall also began because of machlokes as did Ponevezh's. Lakewood's demise has already begun, due solely to the corruption of the current brutal regime, especially King AK his brother and subordinate AMK and their mentor fatcat GW.

מול העינם said...

Reb Hirshel,
I newver understood the whole idea of דור שביעי. When the צמח צדק set up different Rebbistves for his sons, did he really intend that because one was in the town of Lubavitch and one wasn't that the מהר"ש was the real המשך?
I would love to see you post on what non_Lubavitch Chabad is and how you as well as other Lubavitchers relate to it.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

reading shturem I see exactly what proud is immitating but he's still doing it to a degree that only about 1 in 20 commenters there do.

As of his last post he seems to have fallen under the influence of the other "messianic Jews" the ones who don't have a leg to stand on halachically.

Anonymous said...

Proud
This are all soundbites from a fabrengen but can these slogans be substanstiated with mareie mekomos and in accordabce with the Rambam since the Rebbe said multiple times that the Rambam is posek achron on the topic of moshiach and geula, ask your great list of buddies

GERSHON said...

"Lakewood's demise has already begun,"

Why are people delusional and plain wicked??

Lakewood B"H is doing very well.
Al pi derech hateva it will continue doing will, again with Hashems help.The reason Lakewood is very popular is because there is no "force" involved:People are there because they want to be there.It's a big enough place that everybody finds his type of "chevreh".In essence it's a micrcosim of many other yeshivos, without some of the nastiness and partisanship.It's built around learning, but again, you can learn the mesechta the yeshiva is learning or you can join one of the numerous chaburas learning different subjects at different speeds.Yes, if you are having a tough time and can't learn, nobody will "kick you out".If you are chasidish and want to go home to the rebbes tisch, nobody will say boo.
On the other hand you are surounded by world class talmidei chachomim so you can ask and get answers for everything.
Etc., just the tip of the iceberg.
Five thosuand people did not just decide to get up one day and join BMG!

dovy said...

Gershon, It's very nice that you are not optimist, but you are obviously not a realist and obviously don't live, learn or follow politics in Lakewood

Maybe A Lubab said...

"The reason Lakewood is very popular is because there is no "force" involved:"

Right. The alternave options are numerous

"People are there because they want to be there"

Right. It did not become the status quo and there is no sociatel pressure to attend Lakewood.

"It's a big enough place that everybody finds his type of "chevreh"."

Or, no one finds their chevra.

"In essence it's a micrcosim of many other yeshivos, without some of the nastiness and partisanship."

Right. There isn't uppity chaburos that are exlusive and hard to get into. There aren't two groups: the Briker/vort guys and 'others/outsiders' on the periphery

"It's built around learning,"

Ever been to the cofee room?

"but again, you can learn the mesechta the yeshiva is learning or you can join one of the numerous chaburas learning different subjects at different speeds"

Again, if someone is not learning the yeshivishe mesechtos before he finishes the cycle and then learns eyruvin or something similar-joins a halacha chabura- it is looked at by many as a 'cop out' who couldn't really make it kvetching on R' Buroch Ber's like the mitzuyanim and the geribene yeshivishe lamdonim.

"Yes, if you are having a tough time and can't learn, nobody will "kick you out"."

That's a good thing?

"If you are chasidish and want to go home to the rebbes tisch, nobody will say boo."

That's because they are not goyres the chasidim in the first place

"On the other hand you are surounded by world class talmidei chachomim "

Like who? How many world class talmidi chachomim are in the chaburah rooms or in Beis Shalom?

dovy said...

Maybe a Lubab, besides for being an obnoxios jerk, you obviously know nothing about Lakewood either. There happen to be hundreds of talmidei chachamim in Bais Sholom, with dozens who can rival the biggest in the world. THe ONLY problem in Lakewood is the corruption at the top.Bais Sholom is reviled by the K's because they know it is a bastion of anti-K (and anti GW) sentiment.

Maybe A Lubab said...

Dovy, besides for being a kind soul, you are either ignorant or a maliciuos and conceted liar. There aren't dozens of world class talmedey chachomim in BS, if anything, the older and more accomplished TC are in Beis Eliyahu.
Beis Sholom is more against Aaron than the other batey midrashim? what are yous talking about? Beis Sholom isn't a social institution with membership, etc. A large percentage of them learn there for only one seder...
I remember hearing something about not knowing anything about Lakewood, was it you who said that?

Shomer Shabbos Cow said...

Keep on going. Remind me why I'm not in yeshiva. It seems the best a place that lakewood can hope to create is chamoro shel pinchas ben yair and most of the time not even that.

Maybe a Lubab said...

Key

Don't look for terutzim, you have to be the biggest and baddest and fattest key you can be.
Anyways, in Lakewood, the best guys are out of there before they hit forty with shtelers.

Shomer Shabbos Cow said...

Keep on going. Remind me why I'm not in yeshiva. It seems the best a place like lakewood can hope to create is chamoro shel pinchas ben yair and most of the time not even that.

Maybe A Lubab said...

Key

Why blaim the system? 'Eyn Haduvur Tuley Eleh By' comes to mind. You think that there is no room in the system for you to grow? The Sdom Beten element re: the top really affects you? That would mean that you sheygt ibbuhr all of those people you ridicle?

(How about Chasidus, or the Litvishe 'machsuvuh' for some inspiration that talks to your heart)

Joe said...

in regards to what was earlier mentioned, the Rebbe - chai vekayom,moshiach etc., muvon vegam poshut that the only direction to turn is to torah. da'as torah is all that is nogea to a yid. ubifrat the Rebbe's torah. asher lochain, benoigaiu to all these inyonim, it is paramount to know the sichos of the Rebbe which deal with these inyonim. so before anyone is to draw conclusions, they must know the sichos of 5751-2 etc.
after that, one is to know the hoiro'ois the Rebbe gives to bring moshiach, which are mainly discussed in the sivhos of 5751-2.

ve'achsrei kichlos hakol, a chosid's maskono is clear:
1) the Rebbe is alive beguf gashmi. ay, gimmel tammuz, "ain lonu elo divrei ben amrom."
2)the Rebbe is moshiach.(ay, see 1)
3)the main way of preparing for moshiach is not by singing yechi all day etc. but rather, a) learning torah, ubifrat inyonei geulo umoshiach. b)mekayem torah umitzvos behidur in a way to be "mekabel pnei moshiach tzidkeinu".

and all the other shtusim and shtick which goes on is klal uklala nit noigaiu.


moshaich now.