Thursday, May 21, 2009

Is Skver skewing Tshuves?

I was challenged by commenter Meir to look up the Tshuves that were referenced in the Post about the reminder not to walk with your wives that was printed in the New Square bulletin. The fact that they referenced Tshuves as well as mentioning a specific Hora'oh from the previous Skverrer Rebbe, zt"l, makes it open to discussion, I guess. The fact that they quote modern-day Rabbonim and Poskim such as Rav Yonason Steif and the Debreciner Rov makes it even more interesting, since I never saw the DR yell or heard that RYS would yell at couples walking together in the streets of Boro Park and Wiliamsburg. If such obvious transgressions would occur in front of them I'm sure they be mocheh. One of the advantages of doing this blog is that people do you favors and send you material, whether backup or just material of interest. Here we were helped by a daily reader who has at his disposal an Otzar HaChochmah program, and found the Tshuves in אז נדברו AND באר משה they that quote. מהר"ש שטייף didn't make the cut, for some reason.

I was quite surprised that Rav Binyomin Zilber zt"l would be so against walking on the street with the wife; not that I knew his shitos very well, but still. It seems like they may have a point here, despite the fact that he sees it as an Hanhogoh Tovah, probably based on the Gerrer Chassidim he saw in Yerushalayim. With the Debreciner it's another story. He seems to be talking about shpatziering en masse, like they do in other cities, not just a quiet walk, or separate sidewalks. With Shayles like these it's tough to get a straight answer. No Rov wants to sound like he was some major Meykel.


Maybe A Litvak said...

Lacking Bein Adom L'Chaveroy because you are flaunting your good marriage? Huh?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

say whaaaaaat????

Maybe A Litvak said...

He write its lacking BAL, because people with bad marriages will be jealous. If Skver relies on that sevara, they should prohibit anyone from smiling public in NS

Maybe A Litvak said...

Yup. Debritzener never gave a reason not to walk with wife. But, it does seem to support the seperate sidewalks option.

Grubbe Cow said...

GOT IT!! I finally chap why skver needs separate sidewalks. Es shteit women have a bina yeseira. These people need to keep as far away from seichel as possible.

Anonymous said...

The Debretziner meant Boro Park in its modern Hey days when all the temples were still jam packed, I bet you the all obama stimulus package that the Debreciner walked with his wife side by side.

Anonymous said...

I am not 100 % positive, that Rav Silber was a little Maikel in his sefer Toiras Histaklois, and the Klausenburger attacked him, can someone verify please

Anonymous said...

Did the Lubavcitcher Rebbe Ztz"l walk with his wife in CH?

Anonymous said...

But maybe with his mother, you have to ask some old timers

Anonymous said...

what I don't understand from Rav Silber teshuva, if the halacha of Tiul with your spouse is explicitly written in Sulchan Oruch in hilchos Thara, then there is no halacha in other circumstances, all the medroshim gemoras even ramabam are not halcha, period.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

The Debertziner is NOT talking about walking with your wife at all. He is talking about walking BEHIND you wife. Read the Teshuvah. The written Shalo part is misleading.

Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén said...

Are they makpid in Skver that couples shouldn't pass food in from of guests? The same reasoning that ahssurs walking with wife anywhere, would assur that. Are they consistent?

Anonymous said...


Your point is perfect and true.It is clear in Ramah that only things of chiba public affection is assur even when not nida. Handing over food is NOT assur.

None of these docs support what the Skevere BD wrote.

The shuchan Aruch speaks of Tiyul - not halicha.. Tiyul is a stroll and Halicha is walking.

"Tiyul" is for no "purpose" only the stroll itself [as in a park] and that is what the Shulchan Aruch is talking about.

Walking [for a purpose] is mutar and thats what Rabbi Silber is clear about. He just notes that its a good minhag not to do it at all. [not once does R. Silber forbid it]

We all know how it looks going home from shul in many places after Shabbes or Yontif davening. While it is technically mutar, nida or not, it can sometimes turn into a non eidele matter.

That is a far cry from what the BD is reffering to; and I qoute
"many great poskim write very sharp against it [of couples walking together on the street]"

When in truth as Tzig has shown NONE write "sharply against "walking together" [as in walking from your shviger -sometimes after arguing with the wife- sulking all the way home]. That would still violate the Skevere "takune" but has no source whatsoever. in "the great poskim"cited.

In my view the Bais Din is lying and gives many a reason to disrespect Hasidic Bais Din's in general.

Dont get me wrong I am a proud chasidishe person who is proud to see a couple keeping distance in a tznuisdege way. I am for more kedusha, and more power to them.


הכותב בכאב לב על סילוף התורה

Yosef 718

BTW: I didn't see the Debrecener walking on 16th Ave., with his Rebebtzin but I did give him and his rebetzin a ride home from Willie to Boro Park and he sure came to my car with her and spoke all the way home with her and with my Shviger [a distant relative to one of his kids] too, who joined in, and in a typical Hungarian gentelman way. He spoke to her and all in car about family etc. I don't think the Gerer or Skeverer Rebbes would have done that, so to use his sefer to support chasidishe seperation is totally wrong, and as has been pointed out the whole citation is false and not relevent to the Takana.

Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén said...

R'Zilber distinguishes between litayel and stam halichah. Re stam halichah, for a purpose, he says it's assur if they are talking. It is only noygeyah Talmedey Chachomim, but it is a minhag tov to feer zich like a Talmid Chochum (But a community should force everyone to be like a Talmid Chuchum? -leytzunis- they should farher you if you wanna live in New Square)
Ahgahv, in the better marriages they don't yap in the street. Lihavdil, by the moderene, when they hold hands in gahs it is a simen that there are Sholom Bayis problems (ownly if it is with the spouse)
Therefore, it would be a problem of Bein Adom Lichaveroy if you actually don't talk to your wife; that would show that the marriage is good.
Regardless, the Debrezener mentioned the histakuls problem which would justify it. I was never there, I just don't get the logistics: How does a lady go to ther neighber who lives on the same side of the street, if they live on a menner gahs? Go figure

Александровск-Сахалинский said...

I get the funny fealing that even if these Teshuves wouldn't exist, Skver would still insist on pedestrian segregation. Am I right?

Zachodniopomorskie said...

Who is this meshugener who just can't stick with plain old Anon? And where is Anon3 hiding?

WhyMe said...

Where did the old Tzig go? We need a jucy post. The new Tzig is more introverte, introspective... We need something juicy. Be misameyach yiddishe kinder

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ישועת השפ כהרף עין
באלד קומט שוין די ישועה'לי

Maybe a Litvak said...

dey vus hub'n nisht tzu tun mit der tzeyt, vehrt ungivahrment uhn fahrbrent veggen dey chasidishih hanhuguh vus iz zayer vayt fuhn dey klaynchekeh hasugus fun uhnzereh tzelem-kep. Vus iz der big deal, ich farshtey nisht. Tuhmer eymentzhens shver uhn shvigger voinen ahf der menner zayt fund der gahs, ehr darft gayn tzu zayn shver uhn zayn vayb? Zay zull ehm uphocken uhn tzushmeterin uhn dey tayarah heilegereh rebbetzin ken bleyben in der shtiller shtub, up ruhin uhn zitten ungleygt mit der new york times vhen der tzeshmederdigeh mahn darft shukelen dey kup uhn shmechelin tzu yedder greps uhn nayer daher vus is ayngelfallen ehn dey grubbeh kup fuhn zayna gruber shver. Vay'll der shver maynt az siz bakumt ehn a zchos tzu hubben an eydem vus folged ehm uhn 'gebt ehm an oyer' veey a profesetatzia theripsta, az batzult fahr de schar dira vus ehr bashtisht ehm.

anon3 said...

"And where is Anon3 hiding?"
I was away on a cruise to Alaska(halevai).
Truthfully, my wife comes from a chosheve Skvere mishpoche so i'll have to keep silent on this one.

Anonymous said...

I heard today from a Rav that he remembers Satmar Rov traveling in the Kof years with his rebetzin sitting in the front and him in the back, since he was a pachden. He was once leaving to some dacha and he waited for her for a good 15 minutes, I guess the Sigeter rebbes are not so chauvenistic, he used to eat with her at one table on weekdays, vs . the skwerer didn,t eat from a female cook.

schneur said...

I was reading a bio of the Djerba rav Rav Khalfoun Cohen a great posek and leader, even there in Tunisia there were takanaos against men and women going to the market together etc.

Anonymous said...

In the muslim villages it was the norm even by the goyim, alot of these takanos were made just that the jew shouldn't be seen more lenient that his non jewish neighbor, as the famous teshuvas Rambam regarding Tevilas Ezra

Baachi said...

"This typical Litwaukee speak is meant to show the world that G-d is an angry old man who like to show his disobedient kids that he's still in charge. It somehow connects them to the fire and brimstone-throwing preachers' speeches of generations ago by talking like that, I guess. I've heard that kind of talk quite often, especially when reprimanding Lubavitch for saying Ad Mosai etc. "Who are we to tell G-d what and when to do things?!" (That is until they need a yeshuah or refuah, then any talk is OK.)"

Nice anti-semitic-Litwaukee rant you have here!!
If I was you I'd be complimented by the anti semitic insult:It shows someone besides Lubabv think of you as a Yid!
I don't.You are a tziganner-Lubab.That's far from Yiddish

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

typical Polak talk

have anything to say about the actual Tshuvah, Pan "Baachi?"

Please don't talk about my zeides.

Ner Yisroel said...


He never said they are still mizerah yisroel. Even if their bodies were yiddish, it would still apply.

At that time, Lubavichers were saying that, aderaba, it was part of the Geulah process (the accidente?) therefore it was important to say that they were mistaken, but he is still a 'hater', right?

Anonymous said...

RYBS also did not walk in public with his wife. RHS mentioned this in shiur that walking home from shul RYBS's wife walked in a separate group from the men.

Anonymous said...

The teshuva from R. Yonoson Steif z"l also does not "promote" this practise, rather he merely states under what circumstances a woman may be makpedes that her husband walk with her.