I think Rabbi Sears sees RNC as a "typical" Lubavitcher who lives by the mantra "Chabad Uber Alles" , to quote VML. This is not the case. A Typical Chabadnik would not take the job of Rabbi at the Carlebach Shul.
Once we get that out of the way we can look at it differently, not in the degrading way that RDS sees it. I say that because it's obvious from his disdain for Chabad lingo like "Kashe of Tomchei Tmimim", that he sees it as a personal "attack" on Breslov and Reb Nachman. We should look at it as a sloppy research job, something not very becoming of RNC.
but he was trying to portray him as someone who thinks highly of himself because he partook of the aforementioned buckwheat delight. The fact that he learned nothing about Breslov did not keep him from commenting about it.
Why do you think R' Sears had disdain for the term "Kasha of T"T?" Farkert! I think he was pointing out the obvious that RNC made foolish and uniformed comparison, and used a language RNV would understand.
I'm not 100% certain on this, but it seems that he was chosen for the job because he was already "morphed". I say that because they tried another Lubavitcher who shall remain nameless and he tried to reinvent himself for the job but it didn't work out.
Hirshel I don't think R'Dovid Sears meant any disdain by "Kashe of Tomchei Tmimim' he was just making a point that R'NC was relying in RDSears opinion at least, on an unreliable source. I think R'Sears may have been Lubavitch once upon a time and his son, though he wears a shtreimel is some kind of in-between-Lubavitch/Brelover.
NC description of Breslov is shorter than Sears' but I fail to see radical differences. NC was painting with broad strokes.The suggestion that SC was attracted to Breslov and Ishbitz because of its usefulness as a tool rather than emes is what seems to rile Sears.
If I am not mistaken Sears started out BT with Chabad as well and I am sure he views his transition as he described SC's.
One of the factors of his move I seem to recall (I may be wrong, I was a little kid) was that Chabad was so large it was hard to have a relaionship with the rebbe. The rebbe was distant. In Breslov everyone could tap in equally.
Today, after gimel tamuz, nebach we have the same problem and I am sure we are keeping some potential breslovers in the Chabad fold:)
HT, You are reading too much into the line. The "kasha" quote was to illustrate a point; reread the article and I'm sure you will understand that I'm right.
Hirshel, Why are you nitpicking?R'Sears wrote quite a long article and even sourced it, why focus on one line, which at least in my honest opinion was not meant as a slight? You have to understand that as a blogger, you can't post every perceived insult as such, if you want to keep the attention span of the readers.I'm just a (very unpopular)poster and posts to go off on a tangent, but you would hope that the blogmaster would keep to real substance
I thank you for your concern, but You've got it all wrong. What I'm saying is that in my humble opinion RDS sees him as an adversary belittling Breslov, and G-d knows there are plenty of them. Not only is he an adversary he's also a Lubavitcher who thinks very highly of his group and philosophy. With this in mind he responds in a defensive manner, one that you find when you feel you've been attacked and criticized. So, I'm not nitpicking on the issue, I'm simply saying telling it like I see it.
Mehallel, Since you were a little kid you wont be blamed, but that was never even on the radar screen for Sears. And it is a silly, illogical, and ridiculous idea, that he would have joined Breslov for a closer Rebbe-Chossid relationship...
Tzig, I too think you are nit picking this one line. However, knowing R' Sears, I have to add that There is a shtikel defensiveness in the article although on the whole it's much more articulate than whats his name.
I know Rabbi Sears and have tremendous respect for the man. The question why we get off topic is a very strong one, I think most of my readers have very short attention spans.....
Curious, From a practical standpoint you should be able to answer this question yourself. Bekitzur:
One the one hand: 1. More display of emotion helps a person become awakened in prayer. 2. less display can hold a person back, inhibiting them.
On the other hand: 1. More display can boost one's ego, and create delusions of grandeur - where the individual completely fools himself. 2. Less display is more real and intense.
you see? even you can't decide which is better! and besides, in this case more display of emotion can lead to disrupting concentration, because who can concentrate on davenen when you ned to clap and dance?
"The question why we get off topic is a very strong one, I think most of my readers have very short attention spans....." tzigaleh, your taking yourself way to serious. The comments section is an online conversation, not an intelectual convention, & thats the nature of a conversation, it wanders all over the place.
Curious, You are not paying attention my friend. I merely gave you an easy explanation for each method.
You say that outword emotion is disrupting (although I can't figure out how that would be the case) - if so, then don't do it. The idea of outward emotion is to help you davening (and for people who daven that way it clearly does help) but if for some reason you just think that your emotions disrupt you, I suspect that you have never exprienced davening with emotion.
you're mistaken, I'm not speaking of loud davenen vs. quiet, I'm speaking of movements and motions outside of the davenen, that do take your mind off the actual text. Even if you know the words by heart making sure to clap and jump takes our mind off the words.
Noooooo... Clapping by HaMelech is with kavana of hamtakas hadinim and it should help one's focus. I have never seen anyone jump. What specific movement are you speaking of?
you know less of Breslov than even I do. Clapping is a basic staple of a Breslever davenen. Not the incessant clapping of Rosh Hashonoh, but a one-two clap, one-two-three together with hand motions "clapei maaloh".
Curious, I never said that they only clap on R"H, and I never said I was a Breslover. Since you seem to have no actual interest in this matter, rather you just seem to be tootong your horn, this is my last attempt:
ASIDE FROM CLAPPING & DAVENING LOUD WHAT MOVEMENTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? AND HOW DOES IT DISTRACT?
I didn't have an opportunity to read either article, but i'll say this about Citron...his father is a unique combination of a man...an intelectual free thinker, tremendous talmud chocham and a paradym lubavitcher chosid....his mother is a fine lady... whose name was carlbach before marriage, a neice to shloime C.,. TRuly unique and wonderful people....I can't say that I know Naftoli Citron, but he certainly morphed like tiggy said. One could argue that as a bochur he was not cut out to be a hardcore chabadster and found an outlet for his personal direction employing some of the shtick of his uncle...and the more one is in this carlbach world of no boundries and attention as the guru, life morphs at an accelerated speed....i wish him well but beleive that he lacks credibilty as a representative of chabad issues...
rabbi citron (the father)was offered rosh yshiva position in Morristown 10-12 years ago (inside info). He could have then become more of a name....rather than talk about his morphing son, lets talk about cloning him!
54 comments:
Hirshel,
What were your thoughts on the article?
I think Rabbi Sears sees RNC as a "typical" Lubavitcher who lives by the mantra "Chabad Uber Alles" , to quote VML. This is not the case. A Typical Chabadnik would not take the job of Rabbi at the Carlebach Shul.
Once we get that out of the way we can look at it differently, not in the degrading way that RDS sees it. I say that because it's obvious from his disdain for Chabad lingo like "Kashe of Tomchei Tmimim", that he sees it as a personal "attack" on Breslov and Reb Nachman. We should look at it as a sloppy research job, something not very becoming of RNC.
but he was trying to portray him as someone who thinks highly of himself because he partook of the aforementioned buckwheat delight. The fact that he learned nothing about Breslov did not keep him from commenting about it.
Why do you think R' Sears had disdain for the term "Kasha of T"T?"
Farkert! I think he was pointing out the obvious that RNC made foolish and uniformed comparison, and used a language RNV would understand.
(Sorry RNV = RNC)
Does Rabbi Citron consider himself a Chabadnik, a Carlebachian, both, or something else?
I would say that he "morphed" into some new breed Chossid. He definitely does not want to be seen as a Chabadnik.
for job reasons?
oich
I'm not 100% certain on this, but it seems that he was chosen for the job because he was already "morphed". I say that because they tried another Lubavitcher who shall remain nameless and he tried to reinvent himself for the job but it didn't work out.
HT... Um, err, I, ah... i know you said remain nameless, but who would that be? Maybe give us initials????
zezmir
guess....
Hirshel
I don't think R'Dovid Sears meant any disdain by "Kashe of Tomchei Tmimim' he was just making a point that R'NC was relying in RDSears opinion at least, on an unreliable source.
I think R'Sears may have been Lubavitch once upon a time and his son, though he wears a shtreimel is some kind of in-between-Lubavitch/Brelover.
vml,
Do you know Rabbi Sears? Do you know his son?
VML
but his source had nothing to do with Lubavitch, so why mention the Kashe?
NC description of Breslov is shorter than Sears' but I fail to see radical differences. NC was painting with broad strokes.The suggestion that SC was attracted to Breslov and Ishbitz because of its usefulness as a tool rather than emes is what seems to rile Sears.
If I am not mistaken Sears started out BT with Chabad as well and I am sure he views his transition as he described SC's.
One of the factors of his move I seem to recall (I may be wrong, I was a little kid) was that Chabad was so large it was hard to have a relaionship with the rebbe. The rebbe was distant. In Breslov everyone could tap in equally.
Today, after gimel tamuz, nebach we have the same problem and I am sure we are keeping some potential breslovers in the Chabad fold:)
HT,
You are reading too much into the line. The "kasha" quote was to illustrate a point; reread the article and I'm sure you will understand that I'm right.
Jews, what are you arguing about? Rabbi Sears is 100% right.
The more important question is does anyone know in which sicha the Rebbe mentioned hisbodedus?
Hirshel, I think that you should post that sichah. As a card-carrying Republican, I can assure you that it would be a great service to your country.
Hirshel,
Why are you nitpicking?R'Sears wrote quite a long article and even sourced it, why focus on one line, which at least in my honest opinion was not meant as a slight?
You have to understand that as a blogger, you can't post every perceived insult as such, if you want to keep the attention span of the readers.I'm just a (very unpopular)poster and posts to go off on a tangent, but you would hope that the blogmaster would keep to real substance
VML
I thank you for your concern, but You've got it all wrong. What I'm saying is that in my humble opinion RDS sees him as an adversary belittling Breslov, and G-d knows there are plenty of them. Not only is he an adversary he's also a Lubavitcher who thinks very highly of his group and philosophy. With this in mind he responds in a defensive manner, one that you find when you feel you've been attacked and criticized. So, I'm not nitpicking on the issue, I'm simply saying telling it like I see it.
Er zet ois vi a Lubavitcher. Di tchup, di bord, etc.
friendly
you need to get out more, there are plenty of people who look like that today, ever hear of Gush Katif?
Mehallel,
Since you were a little kid you wont be blamed, but that was never even on the radar screen for Sears. And it is a silly, illogical, and ridiculous idea, that he would have joined Breslov for a closer Rebbe-Chossid relationship...
HT,
I think that President Bush is right - do you know about that sicha?
Tzig, I too think you are nit picking this one line.
However, knowing R' Sears, I have to add that There is a shtikel defensiveness in the article although on the whole it's much more articulate than whats his name.
Mr. President
I'll do my best to find it.
It seems that everyone knows Rabbi Sears and his family here. Hirshel, do you know them to?
And why are they the story? The point should be the article. Does anyone agree or disagree on the merits of the article itself?
HT, Even if you think Rabbi Sears is defensive, do you disagree with his essay? If so, then his alleged defensiveness is irrelevant!
I know Rabbi Sears and have tremendous respect for the man. The question why we get off topic is a very strong one, I think most of my readers have very short attention spans.....
Breslov and Chabad have their differences, and that's the way it should be, other wise why not merge?
However, the differnces must be spoken of with respect.
One major difference that I've seen is the emphasis on outward emotion in Breslov. Then again, I may be mistaken or missing the point.
During davenen Breslov emphasises clapping and strong swaying. Can anyone explain to me why?
Curious,
From a practical standpoint you should be able to answer this question yourself. Bekitzur:
One the one hand:
1. More display of emotion helps a person become awakened in prayer.
2. less display can hold a person back, inhibiting them.
On the other hand:
1. More display can boost one's ego, and create delusions of grandeur - where the individual completely fools himself.
2. Less display is more real and intense.
less is more
you see? even you can't decide which is better! and besides, in this case more display of emotion can lead to disrupting concentration, because who can concentrate on davenen when you ned to clap and dance?
"The question why we get off topic is a very strong one, I think most of my readers have very short attention spans....."
tzigaleh, your taking yourself way to serious. The comments section is an online conversation, not an intelectual convention, & thats the nature of a conversation, it wanders all over the place.
Curious,
You must be smarter than that...
less
humore me, please, I'd like to know.
Is Rabbi Citron wearing a traditional yarmulka in that picture? Or is this a "passport" photo?
RNC genrally wears crocheted Yarmulkes, sometimes, sometimes white, sometimes other colors. In that picture I do not know what he's wearing?
Curious,
You are not paying attention my friend. I merely gave you an easy explanation for each method.
You say that outword emotion is disrupting (although I can't figure out how that would be the case) - if so, then don't do it.
The idea of outward emotion is to help you davening (and for people who daven that way it clearly does help) but if for some reason you just think that your emotions disrupt you, I suspect that you have never exprienced davening with emotion.
less
you're mistaken, I'm not speaking of loud davenen vs. quiet, I'm speaking of movements and motions outside of the davenen, that do take your mind off the actual text. Even if you know the words by heart making sure to clap and jump takes our mind off the words.
Noooooo...
Clapping by HaMelech is with kavana of hamtakas hadinim and it should help one's focus. I have never seen anyone jump. What specific movement are you speaking of?
less
you know less of Breslov than even I do. Clapping is a basic staple of a Breslever davenen. Not the incessant clapping of Rosh Hashonoh, but a one-two clap, one-two-three together with hand motions "clapei maaloh".
Curious,
I never said that they only clap on R"H, and I never said I was a Breslover.
Since you seem to have no actual interest in this matter, rather you just seem to be tootong your horn, this is my last attempt:
ASIDE FROM CLAPPING & DAVENING LOUD WHAT MOVEMENTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
AND HOW DOES IT DISTRACT?
less is more:
why the need to get excited?
I'm not speaking about Davening loud, that has no affect on concentration.
It's a bit difficult to describe, so let's end it right here.
Zei gezunt, and Hatzlocho Rabbo in your Avodas Hatfilo.
Ok Curious ;-)
I didn't have an opportunity to read either article, but i'll say this about Citron...his father is a unique combination of a man...an intelectual free thinker, tremendous talmud chocham and a paradym lubavitcher chosid....his mother is a fine lady... whose name was carlbach before marriage, a neice to shloime C.,. TRuly unique and wonderful people....I can't say that I know Naftoli Citron, but he certainly morphed like tiggy said. One could argue that as a bochur he was not cut out to be a hardcore chabadster and found an outlet for his personal direction employing some of the shtick of his uncle...and the more one is in this carlbach world of no boundries and attention as the guru, life morphs at an accelerated speed....i wish him well but beleive that he lacks credibilty as a representative of chabad issues...
well wisher
I have seen the elder Rabbi Citron on sites like 613.org
He seems to be a great guy, somehow he flies under the radar.
As far as Naftoli goes, I don't know him personally, but your point seems to be a valid one.
tziggy, since its rare that we agree and i'd like to once in a while..im coming out of the closet; well wisher
rabbi citron (the father)was offered rosh yshiva position in Morristown 10-12 years ago (inside info). He could have then become more of a name....rather than talk about his morphing son, lets talk about cloning him!
N
why don't you share with us what we'd be "cloning"? since you seem to know him well?
Hirshel,
Did you see Rabbi Citron's response at the other site that you linked to?
yes, it's just too long to post
HT,
Maybe you should add a link to the response?
Yo know, it looks like Sears wraps his tefillin like a Lubavitcher. Hmmm...
Although I guess the Talis is not.
Breslov seems not to have distinct Minhogim when it comes to things like that. So maybe it's from his Lubavitch days?
Not 100% true:
http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_customs1.htm
They do have minhogim, but not for minute details like how to tie the tefillin, Tikkun Chatzos not withstanding.
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