re: My, how times have changed!
Please don't confuse not eating a Hechsher with hating the Rav HaMachshir. I understand there are plenty of people who don't trust the יאקע רב'ס הכשר, and I can tell you that as someone who went to Yeshivah with many of his grandchildren I know it can hurtful. Imagine people telling you that they don't eat your Zeide's הכשר!
Anyway, like Berl has so eloquenly put it, not trusting a Hechsher is not a statement of hate, no matter the amount of Chesed that group does. Besides, after today's scandal, statements by SATMARER CHASSIDIM in certain forums about the trustworthiness of the Hisachdus Hechsher would shock you all.
Berl also made the great point of how Lubavitchers are in awe of the great Satmarer Chesed institutions, whether it be Bikur Cheylim, Hachnosas Kallah etc. No questions asked, and even if some "genius" would tell the Bikur Cholim that they eat only Lubavitcher Shechita. A disillusioned Satmarer, from the important families way back in Satmar, once told me about his experience in Cheder as a child; the harassment etc. When he finished he made mention of the Bikur Cholim and Tzedokoh that they do, and on the other hand the beatings that many suffered at their hands. His words were:
קודם וועט מען דיר צוברעכן די ביינער, דערנאך וועט מען דיר געבן געלט, ביקור חולים און וואס דו דארפסט נאך
A Tale of 2 Satmars to say the least.
Should the "ban" on Hisachdus have been published in the OT Handbook? I don't think so, others would disagree with me. Then again there are lots of things there than can and should be changed, and foolish decisions are plentiful there.
54 comments:
"Should the "ban" on Hisachdus have been published in the OT Handbook? I don't think so, others would disagree with me. Then again there are lots of things there than can and should be changed, and foolish decisions are plentiful there."
At the very least this is a matter that needs to be discussed earnestly and honestly by rabbinic leadership. As evidenced by the discussion on the previous thread the CRC issue has been fodder for much recrimination in both directions. If there is still a "there" there let Rabbis Osdoba, Schwei, Heller, etc. come out and say so and likewise if not. Even an official reinstatement of the ban would be far better than the current prattle, L"H and outright MSh"R of "anashim peshutim" that currently rule the issue.
Full disclosure: I, for one, would like to see this matter drawn to a close and for there to be one less barrier between our two great Chassidische communities.
Again, does the OT ban include products with CRC Hisachdus AND another hechsher? If so then it goes a bit too far especially because the OK is often the other (and real) hechsher.
But I also agree with Runamok that at least someone in our fractured Beis Din should come out with an official statement one way or the other.
berl, crown heights said... (re an earlier post)
Everything written by "unkelos" is a gross misrepresentation of reality.>>>>>>
I am not so sure of that. Unkeles makes some very good points, ad kedei kach, that even Tzig now agrees that maybe OT should not publish such bans about other Jews. (I don't have sons in OT, so haven't seen the handbook, but can someone tell us if there is any other hechsher mentioned there that is not approved? Amongst my relatives makpidim in CH there are quite a few 'amerikaner' hashgochos which are known to be very shvach. Are these also banned or only Hisachdus?)
BerL;
The reality as I know it (from speaking to many people here in CH on this topic over the many years) is that Lubavitchers have a genuine admiration for Satmar chesed and communal organization.
>>>>>>> True, but usually only those who have actually experienced the chesed of Satmar personally (and their families). I have heard a number of them saying that they are deeply sorry for previously having had such nasty thoughts about kindhearted good Jews who are really outstanding baalei chesed. May we never require their kindness, but maybe we should be dan lekaf zechus these people - the grandchildren of those who may have had differences with our zeidas.
BERL:
As to the hechsher: Rav Dworkin z"l wanted the Hisahdus HoRabonim to make a public mochooh against the perpetrators in the summer of 1983 (when the attacks against Rabbis Korf and Vechter happened). This was not too much to ask, was it? But still the Hisahdus refused to do so, and that’s when Rav Sworkin issued his issur.
>>
I don't think Rav D had much to do with the issur. In fact if you'll do your research you'll learn that the banners included Kedem wines in their list. But Rav Dvorkin told them that the only wine he will allow into 770 is Kedem. So one of our entrepeneurs went to Kedem and bottled their wines under (IIANM ) the Kesser label. But it was Kedem and most people knew it was Kedem, making the ban look somewhat foolish. (The Kedem people didn't make a secret of all this.)
And BTW, whilst the attack on Vechter was quite vicious, has anyone areingetracht if it really was right for us to sneakily put in one of our mashpiim into Satmar and 'steal and brainwash' their sons to a derech which went against the wishes of their parents? At a wedding once, talking about this to a few other chassidim (IIRC Ger and Belz) they openly told me that Satmar was pretty soft in their reaction. Had it been their chasidus, it is doubtful if Vechter would have come out alive.
In fact it would be interesting to hear the comments of our Anash - if they had heard that a leading Rosh Yeshiva/Mashpia in one of our yeshivos was secretly 'converting' our kids to, say, Breslav or indeed Satmar? Would we take it lying down? What would happen to this RY? Personally I think he would fare no better than Vechter did.
Berl: On the other hand if, say, the followers of Reb Aharon establish a new rabbinic body (or perhaps they have already done so?), there is not reason to think that the issur would apply to that body as well.
>>
Wanna bet???
BERL:As to the reliability of 'heimishe' purveyors of foodstuffs, perhaps this is not the most opportune time to bring this subject up - what with the recently kashered keilim in Monsey not yet dry an' all?
>>
True. The trouble has always been that when a rav or an kehilla demands that their people only buy from there own fully supervised store, the critics and Jewish media immediately attack them for looking fater their own turf - when very often it is a serious kashrus concern
Listen up Lubavitchers-
Nobody in Satmar or the other heimishe communities gives a rats ass if you rescind your 'ban' or not.Your buying power is negligible to begin with and a nice percentage of Lubavitch don't give a damn about this 'ban' anyway.
When the hall named for Jimmy Gurarie, Raz'ag opened up in Crown Heights they needed another heimishe hechsher as 'backup' for the guests from out of Lubavitch who will not rely on a non heimishe hechsher like the 'crown heights beis din'
right, Bre, what Aidel language from a "Heyyyyyyyymishe"
just like Haddar, Itzkowitz, and countless others who add a non-"Heyyyyyymishe Hechsher to Hisachdus, Nirbater, Volover, right?
to camp runamok
I dont believe in tit for tat, but you are so wound up, I just would like that you and your audience should know that the satmar official curriculum signed by the Reb Yoel of Tietelbaum, that the malamad has to teach his pupils that you have to despise and hate the Aguda and its followers,meaning all most every orthodox jew that walks, from the Bais Yisroel of Ger and the tchebiner on and on and hundreds of thousand of frum jews, I am not nispoel of their chesed as I am not nispoel from the Hizbola/ Hamas social program, there is alot in common both are happy when a bus in Eretz Yisroel gets blown up, If you think I am over the top on this matter start reading the satmar yiddish media,
moshiach now said: "if they had heard that a leading Rosh Yeshiva/Mashpia in one of our yeshivos was secretly 'converting' our kids to, say, Breslav or indeed Satmar? Would we take it lying down? What would happen to this RY? Personally I think he would fare no better than Vechter did."
G-d forbid! The man would be fired from his job as a RY or Mashpiah, but violence? And violence to the point of beating a man within an inch of his life? G-d forbid a thousand times!
bre, anonymous at 11:04:04,
I did not think it necessary to bring examples of the mutual recriminations referred to above. Nevertheless, you have both brilliantly illustrated my point about "anashim peshutim" and their nonsense ruling the roost.
Just remember, Gehinnom is packed with the neshamos of those who say "he hit me back first!". VD"L
"the grandchildren of those who may have had differences with our zeidas…"
”I don't think Rav D had much to do with the issur…”
moshiach now, you clearly do not know from whence you speak:
1. What ‘zeidas’? The events that lead to the ban happened in the summer of 1983 (23 years ago).
2. Rav Dworkin was not involved in the ban? Correct - he only came up with the whole idea and explained the rational behind it! Other than that, he did not have much to do with it.
Does/did the ban apply to Nirbater and Volover? In any case, I have heard that they are far more reliable than CRC (but I can't remember offhand if I have seen them on anything but Meal Mart meat and Mehadrin dairy that we would not usually use anyway because we use our own.)
Anon - I read the the satmar yiddish media - and you are writing blatant sheker. Please give us the date and page no. of a singl such article in any paper.
Hotzo'as shem ra - is an issur chomur. And comparing frum Jews to rotzchim isn't such a great mitzva either.
Are you saying that you or Lubavitch doesn't do chesed - because that is the Hizbolla way..?
Hirschel - pls cancel my last comment. It is untrue - Gefen is either Nirbator or Volover with another hechsher.
The ban on CRC happened when?
1983?I thought it happened after the tahalouchoh around 1978, no?
R'Zalman Shimon Dvorkin died in 1985 iirc.
I hate when people are dishonest to themselves and to us.'Violence bu us' chas vesholom-Stop with the party line.There is a lot of violence by us unfortunately.The Tsfatim Taliban are well know for it:I'll remind you that The Rash'ags wife got a bloody beating too! Yeah, I know it was some Israeli hot head.And who do you think beat Mendel Vechter up, it was a couple of Satmar hetz kep who do not represent most.
It's time to give up this ban, that's all I can say
to Gersh
#1 did I lie with the satmar curriculum ?
#2 I dont have to go back to archives, we can wait to the end of the week and read ML Deutsch, or Teller or YM sofer,
to Chaim
if it wasnt the offical dogma why didnt the CRC and their political bosses in 82 Lee participate in locating the bandits, instead they start a smear campaign that went on for years?
Chaim
please don't compare the 2.
In Lubavitch it's the fringe, and people are shocked, and the act is condemned. In Satmar it was the סמעטענע and they're still saying that not sorry.
Hirshel,I think you know better than saying that Satmars best and finest beat Vechter up.It was the same Taliban hevreh we are suffering from here.
And it was ages and ages ago.We've got to give it up already.It's old is silly and makes Lubavitch seem petty.C'mon it's a mayseh foon bald draysig yohr.Ad mosai?
If Lubavitchers can drive Mercedes and BMW and go on vacations in Austria, then they can also eat Hisachdus...
no, Chaim, I do not "know" better. The שלעגערס weren't of the best, they're too smart to do that, so they sent a bunch of hooligans to do that. If they had a chance they would do it again.
Should it be forgiven? maybe.
Hirshel, stop already! You sound like an idiot. Listen to yourself-'When it happens by us it's a bunch of Israeli Taliban, when it happens by 'them' {Satmar} they were sent by the 'best'.Stam rubbish-When I was a kid I also believed this, till I grew up and realized that there are good and not so good everywhere.Satmar has lowlife goons, but a little secret here:We have them too!So has every community.
Let's try and be an example of being marbeh sholom, not harping on the past
I have taken the liberty to copy and paste this post from the item that started this all – as I have questions and comments which hopefully will be replied to giving a better understanding of this whole matter.
Unkeles said...
Did anyone here explain the reason of : “…Lubavitch 'predigers' of Ahavas Yisroel who spew hatred of Satmar and in fact all Hungarians for something that occurred nearly 2 generations ago!!…
…………………….
The only reply to this seemingly strong accusation has been that we are still awaiting an apology for that episode. But ‘lo yimsu banim al avos’ says the Torah. Can or should we expect the grandchildren of those involved to ‘confess’ their ancestors sins?? Is that a reasonable demand?
Unkeles said...
For how many more generations (or indeed centuries) will you so-called champions of Ahavas Yisroel continue this nonsense??
Maybe forever? Like those Christians who cannot forget or forgive our ancestors of 2000 years ago - for killing their Yoshkeh???
……………….
Nasty – but excellent point. I don’t recall anyone answering this.
Unkeles said...
And to publish such sinas yisroel in a handbook for your cheder, a place where you should be nurturing the neshamos of holy Yiddishe kinderlech.
Shame on you and shame on your leadership. These are your priorities
………………….
Another good point. This is not the type of chassidus we expect from our mechanchim and mashpiim.
Unkeles said...
are so far away from being Chasidim - that your own Rav (Rabbi Heller) felt it important to state in a drasha – published on a Chabad website, that “One cannot be chassidish if one is not frum..”
…………………….
Did rabbi Heller really say this? When and where? Does anyone have a link?
Unkeles said...
Every single poshei Yisroel, is persona grata in all Chabad communities. All for the sake of Ahavas Yisroel.
Lubavitchers are prepared to be mochel all their aveiros, EVEN the chazer fressen and chilul Shabbos that took place only YESTERDAY!!
But no such consideration for Satmarers/Hungarians/Williamsburger etc etc!!! You lovers of all Jews – generations later are still taking revenge on their grandchildren and great-grandchildren This is normal?? This is chassidus? This will bring moshiach? PLEASE ANSWER THAT!!!!!
…………..
Please do.
Unkeles said... To this Tzig replies:
A mouthful of lies, untruths, and exxaggerations at best. Not to mention a great stab in the back. How typical.
Unkeles said….
Can you PLEASE tell us where I lied or exaggerated?? Please!
And WHO did I stab in the back
………….
I too didn’t understand the Tzig comment
jew said... Nor do Lubavitchers 'hate' Hungarians; the more appropriate word would be 'find distasteful'.
Unkeles replies: .. how come they find Yidden shomrei torah umitzvos ‘distasteful’ - but at the same time the biggest and grobbest baalei aveireh are not?? This is the result of Chabad chinuch?
……………..
Hurtful question. And our answer is………?
Unkeles said..., talking of Satmar chesed, Lubavitcher Chasidim and their families who need hospitalisation, do they too refuse the warm meals brought to them daily by the ‘distasteful’ tribe of Satmar Chasidim and chasidestes? Sure..
………………
What is our policy on this? Do we let our sick and frail in the Batei Refuah eat from the Satmar cooking or is the hospital ‘kosher’ menu
preferable?
Unkeles said... if the Ahavas yisroeldige Lubavitchers would bring them a meal or 2 every now and then. But of course they would nebech expire from hunger waiting for that..
…………….
Is this true? We don’t look after the sick in our community?
Unkeles said:
Your own fighting and bashing (including members of the rebbe’s own family) in Lubavitch shows that your tribe isn’t that far behind in the beating-up stakes. Mum sheboch al tomar lechavroch, say Chazal.
…………..
Even from the replies to this point, one clearly sees that many of us are in denial. Can we claim to be any better than Satmar in this regard.
Hirshel Tzig said...
the money Nussenzweig gave is to save them from the ג' עבירות חמורות that they were עובר before Chabad arrived on the scene.
Unkeles said:
What a load of garbage! You are accusing and being ‘motzi shem ra’ on a fine erlich yid, an extraordinary baal tzedaka. He is one of those horrible, nasty and distasteful Satmarers who gives a Chabadnik a million dollars to help him in his kiruv work (yes, 99% of those in the Bangkok Chabad house are irreligious Jews).
……………….
Tzig do you have facts or was this stam a libel on Nusenzweig?
Unkeles said...
Megst dich sheimen and before Yom Kippur call up Nussenzweig to apologise and ask his forgiveness.
…………
Will you, Tzig?
Unkeles said…
You are making a BIG mistake. Satmar did not ban Lubavitch shechiteh. It’s the other way around. Satmar and other erlich Jews WILL eat from ERLICH Chabad shochtim – if and where they exist.
…………
Is this correct?
Last Shabbos many of us were discussing this thread and few of those aged under 40 felt that there was any need for this continuing ban on Hisachdus. Our criteria should be – regarding all hashgochos – is if they are reliable and the rav is a yerei shomayim.
"has anyone areingetracht if it really was right for us to sneakily put in one of our mashpiim into Satmar and 'steal and brainwash' their sons to a derech which went against the wishes of their parents?"
Wow - bingo !
It's about time someone with seichel spoke up.
hey Snag
nobody put vechter anywhere, he was there already. You sound like those Chilonim who say that Arachim and Uri Zohar are brainwashing young vulnerable children into becoming frum.
Ex Detroiter
I salute you!For speaking up eloquently a mouthpiece for many.
Unfortunately many reasonable chasidim are not heard on the net and the big 'Chasidim' who are many times just your old time small haters get the platform.
It's time we learned some of the good things from 'them'
It's funny how some people who are not makpid on the outward look of their bnei bayis vechulu will still preach the big aveira of eating CRC.Daiy,maspik,genug gevezen.
There is a big difference between a case when the kids are not religious, are ochlei treifos univeilos, and someone returns them back to their family minhag of being frum and a case where the kids are already frum, but someone tries to convert them to a new and very different sect, that believes their Rebbe is Moshiach,that their mishpocho doesn't come from.
I reiterate; the matter has to be dealt with by rabbonim. The more the rest of us talk about this the more the discussion devolves into L"H, HSh"R and outright sheker/siluf. This conversation thread up to this point has been a perfect case-study.
Runamok
Don't play 'tamavat'please.
What rabbonim exactly do you want to discuss this issue?Unfortunately there is no one ACCEPTED organization, and let's leave this 'beremizah' a hint. The rescinding of the ban has to come from your poshuter yidden, they have to pressure
In the last few years satmar is trying to infiltrate in the yeshiva and mizrachi world to convert to their world view of jewbashing, in satmar shuls they are raising funds, they claim they had influence on hundreds of people, they printed the Vayoel Moshe in a more user friendly version basicaly they stripped it of all the pilpulim no torah,only political arguments,I dont see how they can claim from the human perspective that Vechter was wrong? are they asking every bochur a signed affidavid from his father that he can listen to their screwed up philosophy?Al pi torah Vechter definitly had the responsibilty and obligation to teach Toras hashem the way he sees it,
"What rabbonim exactly do you want to discuss this issue? Unfortunately there is no one ACCEPTED organization..."
See my orignal comment above. Basically Rabbonei ANa"Sh across the world should get together independently and issue a joint statement. And, yes, I recognize that the current array of organizations are seriously fractured. Nevertheless, such a joint statement signed by Rabbis Osdoba, Schwei, Heller, Glukowsky, Ashkenazi, Landau, etc. should be widely accepted. At least that would be a start.
"The rescinding of the ban has to come from your poshuter yidden, they have to pressure"
Fine! I'm starting it here and now. Are you with me?
Runamok
In my house we have been eating CRC for a very long time.
I believe that this ban is just old style politics a way of showing how 'chassidish' you are.
An acquaintance of mine who held of himself as chassidish although I never saw him opening a seifer or davening half way like a mentsch was always giving me mussar when I would use the regular Golden Flow CRC milk for my coffee in Boro Park.
As I said it's unfortunate that the rabbonim have not gotten together to rule about scarier things like ruling against the meshichists and you think they''ll reach an agreement on the CRC?
Dear Tzig,
I am a very proud Lubavitcher in every way shape and form, but I really feel let bygones be bygones. Look there was a group many, many years ago in Satmar that acted like Reshoim. Fine lets say there was a hundred of them (which I believe is a gross exaggeration) Today Satmar is 100,000 plus. Why should I bear grudge to such a multitude because of the actions of a few bad apples? So their Rabonim did not speak up, OK at the time it was wrong and we acted on it. I say we try as much as possible to befriend a group that in general does much kindness and good even if we don’t agree 100% with their ideology.
One more thing I want to give a sort of doomsday prophesy that I am almost certain will happen, in fact I am surprised that it didn’t happen already but give it a couple years.
There is going to be a group of Tzfatim that are going to decide one day to extend their activities and “open the minds” of the Williamsburg community. They will take their psychotic vans plastered with messiah propaganda and flags and with music blaring will descend upon Satmar.
I promise you this, not one of these deranged Sephardim or Russian retards will make it out of Rodney Street intact. Heads will roll and these aggressive idiots will learn what VIOLENCE really means. See our brothers from Hungarian decent don’t play around when they get mad they fight and they fight quite viciously.
Oh and then the overweight, unemployed rejects who call themselves anash that hang out in 770 at 12:45 am will have what to be yell about! I can just hear the self-righteous hysteria as they try to drum up the old war drums and scream that Satmar is so evil. There will b e a movement to pull gantz Lubavitch into their crap. Well I tell you now; here is one Lubavitcher that won’t shed a tear for the yellow brigade. They thing this is Kiryat Melachi or Bat Yam?
Just mark my words and keep posted to an exciting edition of Beis Moshiach!
unfotunatly this is not the biggest problem thats plaguing lubavitch in our day and age, that you have to convene a worldwide effort, even tough you have a passionate hangover on this subject, it seems you have stock in wall strret depending on that,
What products are out there that are Hisachdus CRC only? Everyone seems to believe that the CRC relies on the OK, OU etc and one hechsher or the other always seems to appear along with the CRC on most products.
Are we talking about a bakery or restaurant here and there? I don't think that affects too many Lubavitchers - how many of us go to eat in Williamsburgh let alone KJ?
Everyone seems to use Tuv Taam salads and Flaum's fish - both are CRC and either OK or OU. Ditto for a few brands of cake, cookies and nosh out there.
If it is the case that the bulk of Hisachdus certified products also have another hashgacha, then the point may well be moot.
The case is not moot at all:It's about the absolute foolishness and plain rishes of printing this crud in the Oholei Torah handbook!Don't you get it?
These half baked morons are teaching our kids hate!
This is an old story, let's get over it.
You sound like a ba'al teshuva that thinks Chassides is about not eating CRC and saying Yechi.
ex-Detroiter said...
Unkeles said...are so far away from being Chasidim - that your own Rav (Rabbi Heller) felt it important to state in a drasha – published on a Chabad website, that “One cannot be chassidish if one is not frum..”
…………………….
Did rabbi Heller really say this? When and where? Does anyone have a link?
:::::::::::::
Yes he did. It was the right thing to do, but it is a true shande that chassidim have to be told.
Here is the requested link:
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=2457
Some of the drasha:
A ‘Frei Chossid’
People must realize that they cannot be ‘Chassidish’,whilst simultaneously disregarding the laws of the Shulchan Aruch; one does not justify, compensate, or excuse the lack in the other. For instance, a woman who learns Chitas and Rambam daily, goes on Mivtzoim weekly,yet does not dress modestly…
One cannot be ‘Chassidish’ without first being frum! ... but one must know what is integral and indispensable to being a frum Yid.
Being Chassidish is not a replacement for Yiddishkeit. The necessary stages of development are: Being a Mentch, being a Yid, being a frum Yid, and finally being a Chassidishe Yid. The third level (being a frum Yid, a religious Jew,) can only be attained via keeping the laws of the Shulchan Aruch; and the final level (a Chassidishe Yid) requires the backing of the third level (a frum Yid).
To illustrate: .. One who did not keep the laws of the Sukkah yet dances intensely by the Hakofos, - his dancing is spiritually empty. The same is true regarding Chassishkeit without the background of frumkeit.
After all, there is even a large Shiur that studies Chassidus, yet is essentially void – it is given by a Reform Rabbi…
Breaches
We must carefully avoid genuine breaches (Pirtza) in Yiddishkeit, matters that often lead to further breakdowns, like the mini leather Yarmulkas, sporting long hair, or reading various newspapers.
::::::::::
Can any of us imagine such mussar being given (or required) in Ger, Viznitz or Belz?
Of course not, there's no need in Ger etc. Because there the Freiouts (and there plenty of them) are neither frum nor Chassidish, so they're left with nothing. Here the guy will most likely turn back to the right path, because he will see the err of his ways.
Halevai, Tzig, halevai!!!
If you could see how many of our chassidish families here have totally lost their kids, you would be so complacent. The nicest and best. One can say (almost) 'ein bayis asher ein sham meis'. Including rabanim, mashpiim shlichim etc etc. If not their children then their grandchildren. And afaik, it does not happen on such a scale in any other frum community. We should wake up to ourselves - before the entire Chabad movement will need to concentrate solely on bringing back our own. Parents here are pulling out their hair asking'where did we go wrong?'.
Rabbi Heller's drasha should go part of the way in answering the question.
At least here in Aust, the lucky ones find that their kids join the Mizrachi Bnei Akiva. The unlucky ones have had their kids become goyim gemurim rachamana litzlan.
Ad mosay????
The case in Australia is unfortunate:There is a very good chassidishe school run by the Chasidisheh non Lubavitch Adass Yisroel a yeshiva for boys and a school for girls, unfortunately there is the 'geist' of 'Lubavitch ubber alles' and they send to the local Yeshiva College and Bais Rivkah were a large percentage of the kids come from non shomer shabbos backrounds!!!!
Nu, nu.
Lechatchila said it right.
Australia is a very unfortunate situation, and there's lots of blame to go around there. Then again, I don't live there so it's tough for me to say. The situation is unique in the fact that school is wide open to kids of any religious background or lack thereof, and that definitely has some effect on the children.
I just find it interesting that Rabbi Groner enjoys respect (at least on a minimal scale) from the Adass, and has made statements publicly that Lubavitch is not the only one doing Kiruv etc, and is quite open-minded when it comes to other Kreyzen, and yet Lubavitch and Adass are as far apart as can be. They may live together in Melbourne but they might as well have been in New York.
Maybe one day they'll wake up and smell the coffee.
Australia and specifically Melbourne is the place where Lubavitch has been most matsliach.I''ll explain:Lubavitch had almost nobody down under, till after the war when about five real chassidim out of Russia arrived there. Since then Lubavitch has become a very powerful force, many Chabad shuls in Melbourne and more then half of all the general pulpits.R'Chaim Gutnick with a Chabad connection and his brother R'Sholom, though not a Lubavitcher in the classic sense became a full fledged Lubavitcher over the years and his kids are at the forefront of many communal institutions and others.The kASHRUTH IS run r'moshe Gutnick vechulu....
Unfortunately the chinuch is on a very low level for many.With such a strong kehilla why the need to send kids to a school with others from very shvacheh backrounds.
Australia and specifically Melbourne is the place where Lubavitch has been most matsliach.I''ll explain:Lubavitch had almost nobody down under, till after the war when about five real chassidim out of Russia arrived there. Since then Lubavitch has become a very powerful force, many Chabad shuls in Melbourne and more then half of all the general pulpits.R'Chaim Gutnick with a Chabad connection and his brother R'Sholom, though not a Lubavitcher in the classic sense became a full fledged Lubavitcher over the years and his kids are at the forefront of many communal institutions and others.The kASHRUTH IS run r'moshe Gutnick vechulu....
Unfortunately the chinuch is on a very low level for many.With such a strong kehilla why the need to send kids to a school with others from very shvacheh backrounds.
None of the Lubavitchers here agree with my doomsday scenario?
Chana (or Chaya) Miriam from Melbourne:
I understand your pain, but dissecting the problems of Melbourne Chabad was not the point of the post here. I'd like for this to stay on topic.
Thanks for understanding.
Tzig, What do you think would happen if our Taliban would march through Willy?
The case is not moot at all:It's about the absolute foolishness and plain rishes of printing this crud in the Oholei Torah handbook!Don't you get it?
These half baked morons are teaching our kids hate!
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If the products DO NOT EXIST, then the point is moot. Let them print what they want (and who knows when that handbook was last revised).
What no one has told me yet is whether there is also a ban on products with CRC plus OU or OK in Oholei Torah. If there is, that is not acceptable.
The ban on CRC only products might as well be a ban on chocolate flavored potable bleach. Unless someone davka goes to some small shop in Willy and buys some salad made on the premises, you are not going to find a CRC only product out there except for meat and dairy. Since we have always had our own standards for dairy, and we have our own schechita, no one would bring Golden Flow or Satmar meat (whatever it is called) into OT anyway.
Oh, and I even saw a kid with a Yechi yarmulke working in a hardware store in Williamsburgh. The proprietor was clearly Hungarian. They do not pay attention to the meshichisten and would probably just throw a few eggs at any Tzfasim who wasted their time going into Willy.
Breaking News: Williamsburg catering hall "WYTHE PARADISE" caught with questionable meat.
Rabbi Shmiel Berger the Rav Hamachshir of several catering halls and many establishments in Williamsburg (including the famous "CONTINENTAL" weddding hall) took off his hashgacha from the catering hall "WYTHE PARADISE" located at 712 Wythe Ave. after confronting the owner who couldn't provide matching Invoices against the Meats that was used in the establishment, the owner MR. LEZER KESTENBAUM of Williamsburg and his Manager MR. KALMEN WEISS where questioned by the rabbi when the number of poundage of meats that were consumed by the facility didn't match invoices, when the owner MR. LEZER KESTENBAUM threatened the rabbi with threat's and mafia tactics if the rabbi will disclose it publicly, the rabbi convened an emergency meeting with the expert rabbanim of the Monsey Shevach scandal and the Rabbanim of the CRC where it was decided that Rabbi Berger must immeadiatly cease his hechsher from the establishment and notify the public, a public letter has been posted all over Williamsburg declaring the rabbanim's decision, and over 60 schuedled simchas have been cancelled already, MR. LEZER KESTENBAUM who is a well known "G'VAR ALIM" who was also indicted for defrauding the Proctor & Gamble Company with millions of dollars supposedly told the rabbi that he will finish him off like he did with other's if this becomes public, we congratulate Rabbi Berger for not getting scared off by mafia tactics and acting according to the rules of halacha.
Posted by: WHYTHE PARADISE / WILLIAMSBURG | September 19, 2006 at 10:04 PM
Itzik
most CRC products have another Hechsher, whether the OU, OK, or others. Some small time products like cakes, cookies etc that aren't mass produced do have only the CRC. Then again you probably would not see them in CH.
Thanks, Tzig - that is what I figured.
Is that OT handbook revised every year or do they just keep reprinting an old edition?
The OT Handbook is updated annually, at least the parts with the Seforim lists etc. are. But that's beside the point. The book says that parents should send to school only food with a Heimishe Hechsher, and it adds:
No CRC.
Meaning that although it's Heimish don't send it.
I dont understand this diatribe, kehiloth always had rules not to allow foreign slaughter Shechutie Chutz not alweays because of the kashrus reason but also for the kehila to collect their dues, eventough in CH it is not relevent but if you hand over everything for the hungarians they will never take a lubavitcher yungerman for a shochet may he be as holy as Reb Sholum Marozev since they are not sure that his wife head doesn't look like a full moon for the whole month, If you would know the jihad that Nirbater Rov led against the new hashgacha of Weissmandel on Rubashkin you will get it.
No other hechsher - such as Nirbator or Volover - is banned from OT? Years ago I would not drink Mehadrin leben or use their cheese but that was because I believed that the equipment was kashered at 180 and not 212. (I could not resist their frozen yogurt at J2, and for that matter I used to like Golden Flow apple cider as it seemed to be on its way to fermentation!) I understand Mehadrin and Golden Flow both have their own plant now.
In any case, the handbook is wrong, because it does not differentiate between CRC alone and CRC with another hechsher. In addition, a more positive way to address the issue is to provide a list of accepted hechsherim.
It is indeed time to forget the whole problem with Satmar as we have more in common with them than we think. As far as I am concerned, the dispute ended in 1991 when Satmarers came to help us during the riots. The winter after the riots, on krachtzmas, I was short on windshield washer fluid and had to drive via Williamsburgh, where I knew stores would be open on Dec 25, to pick some up on my way to CH from Manhattan. Parked my car with a pic of the Rebbe visible and a We Want Moshiach Now sticker on the bumper - NO problems, NO vandalism, not even a Shygetz Aross - just a friendly discussion with the guy behind the counter about the riots and crime in CH.
However, there are reliability issues with CRC these days and I'd only eat CRC-only products if I knew the manufacturer or his reputation personally or via a trusted source.
Well, I am not nispoel from the Hezbollah/ Hamas social program, there is a lot in common both are happy when a bus in Eretz Yisroel gets blown up, If you think I am over the top on this matter start reading the satmar Yiddish media, thanks.
Thanks,
Zain..
kids wall stickers
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