Wednesday, August 30, 2006

My, how times have changed!



Reb Mordche Doovid in the Hamptons

In the good old days when the Ungers lived in Crown Heights and when they were about to leave and wanted to sell their shul things were not so "איי איי איי" between them and the Lubavitchers. [I mean RMD's father.] RMD spent the summer weeks in the Hamptons, and his religious needs were tended to by, who else? the local Shliach, Leibel Baumgarten, a relative of RMD, who brought Bochurim to complete the Minyan. In other words, if not for them וואלט מען געדארפט ברענגען באבאווער בחורים to the Hamptons!

Nowadays, it seems like we're letting bygones be bygones, and that's a good thing. Cooperation and co-existence between our peoples should be encouraged.

After all, aren't we all G-d's children?

34 comments:

Camp Runamok said...

HT,

Kinda off topic but what is the current status of the "cherem" against Satmar hashgochos from a few decades back? Are Lubavitchers today, as a rule, letting "bygones be bygones" on this matter? My neighbor's son attends an out-of-town Mesivta where they are apparently still being told that Satmar shechita is possul. This to bochurim that weren't even alive yet when those events happened!

Hirshel Tzig said...

not kinda, but very OT.

My kids go to Oholei Torah and they were told in the handbook sent to parents prior to the schoolyear that all food must have a Heimishe Hechsher, no התאחדות הרבנים allowed. I guess it's till on, for what it's worth.

unlubby said...

Wow, the ahavas yisroel!
Keep up the cheirem, we all want to know what Lubab is all about!Ahavas yisroel if you have $$ OR you may become a Lubab.If not, read this imbecilic blog to 'see' and 'feel' the ahavas yisroel.
Btw, I send a lot of people to this blog so they should see 'true' ahavas yisroel nusach Lubab, from a gevorener Lubab who is not smart enough to hide the hate he was fed and taught.The most 'popular' post was the one cursing out the new kolel in Sydney.People could not understand how there could be so much hate towards people doing a good deed and people the Tzig does not even know.After reading the blog a bit they understand:Lubavitch is NOT about yiddishkait and yechidim who do something for yiddishkait do it DESPITE their Lubab affiliation.Lubab is about power, lots of $$$$$ and kovod.
Yechi hamelech!
P.S Since your kids are 'zocheh' to go to the 'Rebbes moised' Ahalei Taireh, I hope you make sure to not to allow them any unkosher food from the CRC,but even more important, do you make sure they kiss the Rebbes picture at night?This and other avodoh zoro requests were reprinted in 'that' book.No wonder why the Lubab grow up to be the mindless ferd that they are.

Censor at work!

Anonymous said...

I attended various events of Lubavitcher families attended by Satmarer relatives. I have never once seen any of the Satmarers taste even a piece of cake.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous

don't you see? they're allowed to! after all די ליובאוויטשער זענען נישט קיין היימישער, מ'קען נישט "טראסטען" זייער הכשר!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Unlubby

All this "love" from you in Elul? tsk. tsk.

It's quite interesting that you mention money and power, not that any of the Yeshivos, who suck up to the Grubbe Hungarian Ballebatim they so despise (or say they do anyway) run after money, right? that's why all the Roshei Yeshivah in America live mamesh in extreme poverty, right?

Kolel in Sydney: did anybody "curse" them out? I certainly didn't, but why the read the post when you can bank on the table and be "Moicheh" on the lack of "Koved HaTorah" instead?!

YOU MAKE ME SICK!
GET OFF MY BLOG!

tzibaleh said...

unlubby is the former "malach".
i'm 98.4% sure about it.

yosef 718 said...

speaking of הכשרים I think its very telling indeed that the new chasene hall in Crown Hieghts took מכון להוראה as an additional הכשר.

To me it says all about how lubavitch is looked on by most other so called 'heimishe' sects.

Does Skever need an additional הכשר?
Does Viznitz?
Does Pupa?
Does Belz

Most Heimishe eat from each others הכשר. except lubavitch ...its painfull but its true
מי יגלה עפר עיני הבעל התניא

and see to what esteem his hasidim are held.

As for myself I would eat and drink at a chabad affair except I won't eat the שחיטה and only because I won't eat from a שוחט who is a meshichist למחצה לשליש ולרביע
even from someone who only uses זי"ע for the lub rebbe ... it all points to a שרץ במוח

haganev said...

I heard rabbi Heller says that the boycott is over.

Camp Runamok said...

Yosef,

The "מכון להוראה" issue has more to do with the serious internal problems at the CHK of recent years. There are not a few Lubavitchers that will not trust them today.

Case-in-point; there is a certain store in CH that has a CHK logo posted in the window and emblazoned on all their packaged products. Meanwhile, the official CHK web site has a letter posted stating that said establishment had their hechsher removed years ago! So, despite the CHK revocation the store owner fears no retribution for brazenly displaying that logo. What does that say about the CHK's diligence in enforcing their own rulings. And what about the esteem in which they should be held by the public?

You can be sure that if it was "just" the OU the store owner would find himself facing a judge for trademark infringement by that afternoon. If it was the CRC or othersuch the locks would have been changed overnight or something like that.

berl, crown heights said...

What a bunch of clap trap! Where do you think all the 'haimishe' eat 'intervegens' in places like China, at least when other Jews are looking :) ? That's correct, in Chabad (gasp)!

I personally do not trust any 'haimishe' hechsherim for two reasons:
1. I do not believe many of them (not all) have the understanding of the modern industrial food processing.
2. I do not trust their honesty & yiras shomaim for a second.

G-d forgive me, but I have much more faith in the yekkes from Bruers and even the snags from Star-K. And the people at OK are on the top of this game.

Camp Runamok said...

Berl,

"G-d forgive me, but I have much more faith in the yekkes from Bruers and even the snags from Star-K. And the people at OK are on the top of this game."

Can we expect this to show up on "Berl Yomi" soon? ;-)

Seriously, though, aren't most of the heimische marks on industrially processed foods simply depending on the OU/OK/Star-K/Yud-K-Vov-K/etc. mashgichim anyways? I recall a half serious remark from a former mashgiach I know about the various headgear he kept in his desk at the plant; a kippah serugah for the OU, a shreimel and fake peyos for the CRC, a black hat with upturned kasket for KAJ...

Bocher said...

Good to see the Bocherim רעדן אין לערנען מיט ר' מרדכי דוד, Make a Kiddush Hashem and Kiddush shem Lubavitch!

L..Philly said...

Berl,
How do you feel about the OU?
Are you close to kashruth industry in anyway, i.e do you know things that only insiders know?

essen kotleten said...

HT,
Did you hear that the MDU Bobov purchased BY D'Brooklyn (Balkany) and the former Temple E for $14 mil last week? Not bad...

Itzik_s said...

My kids go to Oholei Torah and they were told in the handbook sent to parents prior to the schoolyear that all food must have a Heimishe Hechsher, no התאחדות הרבנים allowed.
---------------------------------

Does Oholei Torah allow products with Hisachdus and another hechsher? Everyone in CH seems to use such products (except meat and perhaps cheese I guess). I use them (Tuv Taam salads, some baked goods) as I was told this is acceptable.

Anonymous said...

to Yosef 718 why does all belzer establishments as yossi and eagles have CRC ontop of the belzer hashgacha, because belz was ostracised by a group that has 3 newspapers and non stop propogates hate on a weekly basis and their crowd are "The Food Consumers"
but you sick Chabad hater atleast found a new theory to bash chabad for the month of Elul(in matter of fact I assume your theory was brought up in a different hebrew or yidish site,go back to your cave and create a new Gobbeles theory)

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous (11:07pm)

Yosef718 is not a Chabad hater, so please tone it down.

Unkeles said...

I am always amazed at the Lubavitch 'predigers' of Ahavas Yisroel who at the same time spew hatred of Satmar and in fact all Hungarians for something that occured nearly 2 generations ago!!
And that is how they bring up their children!! This is REALLY gonna bring Moshiach, right??

It is a terrible chilul Hashem to see Lubavitchers in stores before Pesach buying up products of all sorts of questionable and non-heimish hashgochos - and INSISTING that they will not use CRC etc.

And of course these Johnny-come-lately BTs and their kids have absolutely NO IDEA why CRC is not kosher - or even what CRC is. It is a true charpoh and bizayon for Chabad.
And 1000 times more so - that are are not ashamed to publish this in the Oholei Torah handbook.

EVERY POSHEI YISROEL, every chazir-fressing assimilated Jew (True usually only rich ones) with shikse wife, is welcomed and loved and honoured by Lubavitch. But we are told to hate and mistrust the grandchilden of people who were alive (remember that 99.9% of Satmarers had nothing to do with what happened) during that Lubavitch - Satmar battle decades ago. Yeah, real genuine Ahavas Yisroel. Real derech habaal Shem.

Of course, meanwhile the CRC and the other Satmar associated heschsherim keep growing in leaps and bounds whilst the Chabad kashrus is viewed by almost all charedim as very suspect for meshichtish reasons plus many more serious charges. Not only by Charedim - but even frum Lubavitchs, as we see they need the hashgocho of Machon Hoy'roeh as well (who by the way, are themselves Hungarians and very close to Satmar).

As for the reason that people eat at Chabad run establishemnts in China etc, 1) many actually don't, and 2) those who do, make sheva chakiros about the reliabilty and yiras shomayim of the local shliach, before they enter the place. BH, Lubavitch does still have a few normal and erlich people- upon whom charedim can and do rely on. But why not ask them (eg, Kantor in Bangkok and Avtzon in HK) who their biggest and strongest supporters are? Chabaniks?? A nechtiger tog!
It is Satmar chasidim, businessmen mit seichel and with a hartz. (Nussenzweig gave Kantor a million dollars - according to reports). What this shows is that unlike many Chanbad hate-mongers, Satmar chasidim look at the peroand and matzav and not at some machlokele that happened in his grandfather's days.

It's time for Lubavitch to wake up to themselves and reaslise that they are considered chutz lamachneh by the vast majority of erlich Jews worldwide, who don't use their shechita, do not meshadech themselves with them, and gernally consider them to be a crazy sect of idiots who have taken over the running of a once respected community.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Unkeles

A mouthful of lies, untruths, and exxaggerations at best. Not to mention a great stab in the back. How typical.

Unkeles said...

I beg your pardon!????

Every word I wrote is 100% true!

You are obviously so busy acting like a goat that you no nothing about Lubavitch recent history.

And what's this about a 'stab in the back'?????

Please explain.

jew said...

The invective hurled around here generally says much less about the subject of the moment than the commenter and, sorry HT, the forum.

In the category of top-ten most-used and bottom-ten in meaning, goes the word 'hate'. 'Snags' and 'poilishers' do not hate Chabad, at least not the ones commenting here, anymore than a 3-year-old child can 'hate' someone. The appropriate word is immaturity, בלשון היהודים kinderishkeit, and people who can routinely use the sort of language shown above in all its pristine beauty are not people whose 'hate' I would pay much heed to.

Nor do Lubavitchers 'hate' Hungarians; the more appropriate word would be 'find distasteful'. In the Lubavitcher outlook, Hungarians were a tribe who on an organizational level probably did far more מעשי חסד than anyone else; that said, the coarseness that characterizes them (ברובם), again shown most starkly by language, more importantly the tone used above, makes these people distasteful all the same. The ablility on the part of the Ungarishe to routinely and institutionally go and beat up people from another kreiz was not something that anybody ever doubted; when it actually happened (and continues to happen, albeit now it directed at their own), it was not viewed by anyone as a 'one-time thing'. This should be kept in mind when analyzing the 'Lubavitcher' reaction.

Before speaking about Ahavas Yisroel, which is a middah that many can for the time being only aspire to, people would do well to contemplate accepting some more 'down-to-earth' practices, such as the most rudimentary level of שומר פיו ולשונו.

jew said...

That was more nasty than intended. כתיבה וחתימה טובה to all!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Unkeles

the money Nussenzweig gave is to support a man who gives his soul to make Businesspeople like himself feel at home and save them from the ג' עבירות חמורות that they were עובר before Chabad arrived on the scene.

Kantor traveled 36 hours on Chanukah, lighting Menorah on the plane to be Menachem Ovel Mr. N. that's devotion, no?

If these holy travelers "check the Yiras Shomayim" of these Shluchim then good for them, they'll find it better than they have at home. They support Chabad in these places because they need them, and most Chabadniks are shleppers who never step foot on the Far East and have thousands of other shluchim to support, not just one guy in China.

Do I wanna be in a מחנה like yours? let me think about it.

Anonymous said...

To Unkeles
why is the Lubavich shechita in Bankok,Bejing,Shanghai.... good for the Lepkas and the yakobs because the are far of the spotlight of the brooklyn yidish media that spews hate on a weekly basis, and that is the answer that he gives the money to the shaliach because he is participating in the unvarnished pure soul to soul approach,
I dont think that not eating a hashgacha of a rabbinate that was part of the attempted murder scheme is politics, it is in pure halachic terms losing cheskas kashrus I understand that rabbi Hilel weinberg has a much wider brim on his hat(and other wide..) then Shvie and Ozdoba but they still have to follow simple halachic guidelines, and all your rantings will not change anything

yoshe kalb said...

The ban on Hisachdus will soon be a thing of the past anyway,because I heard that Rubashkin is going to shecht for Kiryas Yoel.What I don't know is,if Aron Teitelbaum is in control of the Hisachdus (CRC).

shpitz said...

Nah, NEVER.
REAL Lubavitchers will rather eat Hebrew National than anything that has any shaychus with Satmar kashrus.

Unkeles said...

I am REALLY trying to understand the defenders of the Lubavitch shtus to ban the kosher food produced by erlich Jews and under the supervision of Choshuv Rabbonim - whose psak is acceptable to all communities.

Let me repeat a few of my original points– and to which in response all I got was abuse and hatred.

Did anyone here explain the reason of : “…Lubavitch 'predigers' of Ahavas Yisroel who spew hatred of Satmar and in fact all Hungarians for something that occurred nearly 2 generations ago!!…

For how many more generations (or indeed centuries) will you so-called champions of Ahavas Yisroel continue this nonsense??
Maybe forever? Like those Christians who cannot forget or forgive our ancestors of 2000 years ago - for killing their Yoshkeh???

Seems to be absolutely no difference at all.

And to publish such sinas yisroel in a handbook for your cheder, a place where you should be nurturing the neshamos of holy Yiddishe kinderlech.

Shame on you and shame on your leadership. These are your priorities despite the multitude of problems in your community with hundreds of children going off derech and many more who may keep the basics - are so far away from being Chasidim - that your own Rav (Rabbi Heller) felt it important to state in a drasha – published on a Chabad website, that “One cannot be chassidish if one is not frum..”

The chachomim leading your community are more concerned that a child may bring a drink or candy with the hashgocho of the Hisachdus Horabonim..

What a way to bring up their children!! This is REALLY gonna bring Moshiach, right??..”

Let me again ask you the obvious question: Every single poshei Yisroel, no matter how terrible and disgusting his past (and often present) is, is persona grata in all Chabad communities. All for the sake of Ahavas Yisroel.
Lubavitchers are prepared to be mochel all their aveiros and be melamed zechus on every negative anti-Torah action that these people have ever undertaken, EVEN the chazer fressen and chilul Shabbos that took place only YESTERDAY!!

But no such consideration for Satmarers/Hungarians/Williamsburger etc etc!!!
After all, 40 years ago a few of their shventzelech did something nasty to our grandparents and THIS we cannot ever forgive…

Tou lovers of all Jews – generations later are still taking revenge on their grandchildren and great-grandchildren and their kashrus will never be ‘kosher’ or reliable enough for us Lubavitch tzadikim - to allow our kids to eat their cookies or drink the soda.

EVERY SINGLE person who was involved in that parsha (even then it was a meeute demeeuteh of the huge Satmar and Williamsburg community) is long gone from this world, but these fine Crown Heights “Chasidim” carry on the battle and the hatred – passing it down to generation sof children!

Yep, even those Lubavitchers who they, their parents and grandparents were eating neveilos utreifos and being oyver on kol haTorah kulo – have, as part of their return to the true faith, undertaken a personal ban of Hisachdus kashrus!

This is normal?? This is chassidus? This will bring moshiach?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT!!!!!


Also, to publish such divrei machlokes in a handbook for yiddishe kinder, so they can ask who is this terrible Hisachdus Horabbonim whose products are banned, you can shtop their poor little keppelech them with rechiklus, loshon hora, sheker etc etc to ensur ethat they too will be full of hate to a huge tzibbur of shomrei Torah umitzvos!

Dos iz chassidus?????


To this Tzig replies:
A mouthful of lies, untruths, and exxaggerations at best. Not to mention a great stab in the back. How typical.

Unkeles said….
Can you PLEASE tell us where I lied or exaggerated?? Please!
And WHO did I stab in the back (No doubt that it is easier to write such ridiculous accusations than face the truth.)


jew said...
Nor do Lubavitchers 'hate' Hungarians; the more appropriate word would be 'find distasteful'.

Unkeles replies:

Sadly many do. But afilu leshitos’cho how come they find Yidden shomrei torah umitzvos ‘distasteful’ - but at the same time the biggest and grobbest baalei aveireh are not?? This is the result of Chabad chinuch?


jew said... In the Lubavitcher outlook, Hungarians were a tribe who on an organizational level probably did far more מעשי חסד than anyone else; that said,

Unkeles replies: “that said” ??? As if this just some tiny hiddur - which one may or may not undertake!

As EVERY true chasidishe Yid knows it is chesed that will bring the geuleh. It is chesed that the RBSO expects from us all.

And, BTW, talking of Satmar chesed, Lubavitcher Chasidim and their families who need hospitalisation, do they too refuse the warm meals brought to them daily by the ‘distasteful’ tribe of Satmar Chasidim and chasidestes? Sure..

I suppose they would, if the Ahavas yisroeldige Lubavitchers would have some Hungarian chesed feelings inside them and would bring them a meal or 2 every now and then. But of course they would nebech expire from hunger waiting for that..

And can you tell us if the rabbonim who write the handbooks for Oholei Torah also asser Chabadniks in hospital to consume Satmar and Hisachdus food?? Interesting shaalah, no?

jew said... the coarseness that characterizes them (ברובם), again shown most starkly by language, more importantly the tone used above, makes these people distasteful all the same.

Unkeles said:
First of all, I am not a Satmar chosid and they are certainly not responsible for anything I write. But if my tone sounds a bit rough, that is because I am VERY angry. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read what tzig had written about that handbook.
Sorry, but that a disgusting show of sinas ysiroel from those who promote themselves as the lovers of all Jews REALLY upset me.


jew said... The ablility on the part of the Ungarishe to routinely and institutionally go and beat up people from another kreiz was not something that anybody ever doubted; when it actually happened (and continues to happen, albeit now it directed at their own), it was not viewed by anyone as a 'one-time thing'. This should be kept in mind when analyzing the 'Lubavitcher' reaction.


Unkeles said:

Far from me to defend any person who beats up others. But to categorize an entire community of tens of thousands of fine and decent Jews – because of the behaviour of a few (maximum 1 or 2 % - if that of their tzibbur) is another disgusting show of Chabad sinas Yisroel. Your own fighting and bashing (including members of the rebbe’s own family) in Lubavitch shows that your tribe isn’t that far behind in the beating-up stakes. Mum sheboch al tomar lechavroch, say Chazal.



Hirshel Tzig said...
the money Nussenzweig gave is to support a man who gives his soul to make Businesspeople like himself feel at home and save them from the ג' עבירות חמורות that they were עובר before Chabad arrived on the scene.

Unkeles said:

What a load of garbage! You are accusing and being ‘motzi shem ra’ on a fine erlich yid, an extraordinary baal tzedaka. He is one of those horrible, nasty and distasteful Satmarers who gives a Chabadnik a million dollars to help him in his kiruv work (yes, 99% of those in the Bangkok Chabad house are irreligious Jews).

Megst dich sheimen and before Yom Kippur call up Nussenzweig to apologise and ask his forgiveness.


Hirshel Tzig said...
Kantor traveled 36 hours on Chanukah, lighting Menorah on the plane to be Menachem Ovel Mr. N. that's devotion, no?

Unkeles said…
With the greatest respect to R’ Kantor, who wouldn’t travel 36 hours to their one and only million dollar donor!?

Hirshel Tzig said...
Do I wanna be in a מחנה like yours? let me think about it.

Unkeles said…
Do we want such ‘kefuyei tova’ and motzi’ei shem ra and sonei Yisroel in our Machneh? I don’t have to think about it.

Anonymous said...
To Unkeles
why is the Lubavich shechita in Bankok,Bejing,Shanghai.... good for the Lepkas and the yakobs

Unkeles said…
You are making a BIG mistake. Satmar did not ban Lubavitch shechiteh. It’s the other way around. Satmar and other erlich Jews WILL eat from ERLICH Chabad shochtim – if and where they exist.


Anonymous said...
because the are far of the spotlight of the brooklyn yidish media that spews hate on a weekly basis,

Unkeles said…
More garbage. I read their newspapers very often and rarely see Chabad even get a mention. But as with all the above, if you have no honest and sensible reply, you just spew hatred and garbage.

So again, please read what I have written and think about it before shooting off your collective mouths. Maybe then you will be a modeh al ho’emes and realise that something is rotten in the state of Lubavitch.

berl, crown heights said...

Everything written by "unkelos" is a gross misrepresentation of reality. The reality as I know it (from speaking to many people here in CH on this topic over the many years) is that Lubavitchers have a genuine admiration for Satmar chesed and communal organization. True, Lubavitchers (as other Jews) will make jokes about other groups but, that’s all in good cheer - there is no hate for Satmars here (though perhaps this is not so when it comes to 'snags').

As to the hechsher: Rav Dworkin z"l wanted the Hisahdus HoRabonim to make a public mochooh against the perpetrators in the summer of 1983 (when the attacks against Rabbis Korf and Vechter happened). This was not too much to ask, was it? But still the Hisahdus refused to do so, and that’s when Rav Sworkin issued his issur. Rav Dworkin is no longer alive, and I seriously doubt anyone will remove his issur without said machooh. And guess what? It's not too late to issue such a machoooh even today! On the other hand if, say, the followers of Reb Aharon establish a new rabbinic body (or perhaps they have already done so?), there is not reason to think that the issur would apply to that body as well.

As to the reliability of 'heimishe' purveyors of foodstuffs, perhaps this is not the most opportune time to bring this subject up - what with the recently kashered keilim in Monsey not yet dry an' all?

Anonymous said...

to Unkeles
1) noting is old 40 years and most guys havent died yet, let everybody live to 120.

2) the cheskas kashrus issue was never solved, a rabbinate that participated in that scandal is not considered a beis din this is simple shulchan oruch, (more obvious then the gimel shvouth that the satmer religoun is based on)maybe the lubavitch rabonim should reconsider it is their decison to make, rav osdoba is a talmud chochom mivhak he is capable to mevarer the dilemma.

3) dont tell me about the jihadi terror of tietelbaum of Nirbater against rubashkin and lubavitch shochtim, he wrote everybody,and thank god that satmar is in the split and his brother is in a fight with him he couldnt use the teitelbaum method to wipe out wohever is in their way by all means, he got his way that most caterers will not take Weissmandel, he needs a few good satmar mosrim to take care on him,since he use a mafia handbook,
dont tell a williamsburger who a tietelbaum his, I am fully aware exactly what is under the wide brim facade.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, your love for a fellow Jew is to be admired!

BTW no one sems to reply to Unkeles's points. The one that upsets me teh most is is justified taanoh that we are educating our children to hate or at least dislike and denigrate other Jews.
And not because we say that these Jews are bad peopel - but because their grandfathers did something wrong.
Maybe we should ask about this-- AD MOSAY????

Anonymous said...

the question was answered many times, as if according to chasidic philosophy there is no Choshen Mishpot, and no Cheskas Kashrus problem, stop bringing up that nonsense conatantly, in matter of fact according to Tanya 32 there is rather a mitzva of tochocho for a frum jew since he would listen vs. a non frum person that wont listen, you have to pull him with strings of love

Moshiach Now said...

Re Berl CH, I'll comment in the newest post.

Anonymous said...

לכל הפחות הרבי שהוא תלמיד חכם נודע רואה שגם בחורי חב"ד שיצאו לשליחות מדברים בלימוד