Friday, August 11, 2006

Naivete' or Ignorance?



Vos Iz Naies: Ceasefire with Hamas?

"Israel - Rabbi Steinman and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, have given their blessing to a meeting with Hamas aimed at reaching a cease-fire that could save Jewish lives.

The plan approved by Yosef and Steinman calls for three rabbis representing Sephardi, Ashkenazi and religious Zionist Orthodoxy to meet with Hamas representatives.

The proposed cease-fire would be between Hamas and the Jewish people - not with the state of Israel - to circumvent Hamas's refusal to recognize the Zionist entity.
Rabbi Yosef, and Rabbi Steinman and other major rabbinic leaders take a pragmatic approach to the talks, they see it as a means of stopping, even if only temporarily, the barrage of Kassam rockets in the South, suicide bombings and roadside shootings.

Contemporary Issues in Jerusalem, said that religious leaders, both Jewish and Muslim, had much in common and could accomplish much more than politicians. "The Islamic world has deep concerns about the penetration of liberal, secular values and lifestyles into the Middle East. A major factor in the conflict between radical Islam and the Western world is Islam's opposition to secular lifestyle and ideology. "The Charedi community understands their sensitivities and mentality and feels threatened by the same phenomena.
The Charedi community could play a key role in dialogue between the West and Islam because we live in two worlds, one deeply religious and the other liberal and pluralistic. We understand that the secular mind is different from the religious mind.

"Today in the West the assumption in dealing with Muslim extremism is that moderation and tolerance are the keys. But what the West does not understand is that there is something threatening in that approach, both to the Charedi mind and to a deeply Islamic mind. Both Charedim and Muslims see multicultural society as an anathema."

[HT] "Am I the only one that realizes that these people are שטופי זימה and could care less about "Western Values"?"

Is that what we are now, like the religious Muslims, with the "same sensitivities" just with somewhat different customs?


Are we not the עם סגולה anymore?

22 comments:

A Simple Jew said...

It is a sad state of affairs

chabakuk elisha said...

From an Email that I wrote to a friend not long ago:

War. It's no simple matter at all... the loss of life... loss of limbs... the pain... the trauma... lives irrevocably changed... the destruction...

But the goal of war is to stop all those things. The ultimate sacrifice to save the future. However, if the leaders - political, military, religious, etc - are looking for a way out - if they aren't seeking complete victory - than all is for naught. Lives were lost, damaged, never to be the same - on both sides - and nothing changed. if so, why do it? Why abuse people to achieve nothing?

My perpetual fear is that there is no leadership. That the goals are to small to matter. That people are made to suffer for nothing... I hope and pray that I am wrong.

n said...

Perhaps these three are brave fighters/leaders and you got it all wrong. Imagine the meeting, the Hamas diplomats sitting across from these rabbonim when suddenly Rav yosef screams fire! and the other two whip out uzis and take out the hamas reps. Hmmm?

Camp Runamok said...

"Is that what we are now, like the religious Muslims, with the "same sensitivities" just with somewhat different customs?

Are we not the עם סגולה anymore?"

Well, with kosher phones, segregated buses, schools devoted to rote repetition rather than critical analysis and radical groups who regularly militate against the state there would seem to be much similarity between some of our brethren and Fundy Muzzies.

Hirshel Tzig said...

N

hmm, I never thought of it that way....

I think the Charedim are sick of being compared to Iran and the Rabbonim to the Ayatollahs להבדיל, so they say "why not see what they're about?!"

I guess they never thought of just being more pleasant when trying to get their points and ideas across....

Anonymous said...

Now let me see someone cursing the Nturah Kartah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itzik_s said...

The accuracy of the piece is in doubt. It is very surprising that R' Ovadia and R' Shteinman would work with or endorse Froman from Tekoa who is a daas yochid, to put it mildly. No other Israeli paper seems to carry this article; it may be a puff piece for Froman.

gg said...

I don't know why you say that 'frum' Muslims are 'shtufei zima' It is not true.If you ever visited Stamford Hill in London you'll see that the chasidim there get on well with those 'frum' Muslims, in fact the Satmar have a large shul, I think on Cazenove if I'm not mistaken opposite a Muslim elementary school.We as frum yidden have a lot in common with strict Muslims who are modest, crime free and family oriented.
Make no mistake that I have anything to do or even hold of Neturei Karta, I don't! My point is that it's unfortunate that we have a sworn enemy that actually shares many of our frum beliefs.

Anonymous said...

in the time of war ,for a group to seperate themselves and negotiate with the enemy is .....
isn't it ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

GG

it's not me that says it, it's the גמרא that does, and believe me, all is not what seems, Muslims in Stamford Hill not withstanding. The point is that if we believe that Muslims are equal because they lead strong family lives then we're in big trouble. I would venture to say that you haven't learned Chassidus where the idea of אשר בחר בנו מכל העמים is expounded upon.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Itzik

after seeing the source you're probably right in doubting the accuracy of this piece.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Anonymous

the difference is quite clear, the עוכרי ישראל of the so-called "Neturei Karta" love the Muslims and aren't looking to make peace with them. They want for Hamas or the PA to run Meah Shearim, Rav Steinman does not. They also have never met an enemy of Israel they don't love, Haffez Assad included.

GG said...

Please quote where the Gemorah says that 'frum' Muslims are 'shtufei zimah'.There were no Muslims in the time of the gemarah, obviously, since it was 'invented' hundreds of years after, the Gemara.

Dovid said...

Please tell me this is a sick joke?! Please?

Anonymous said...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525850163&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Anonymous said...

reb hershel

rav steinman is the msot original thinker we have today, and he really doesn't giev a d-m what anyone says about him- a liittle respect for a true leader-

Hirshel Tzig said...

Reb anonymous

I have much respect for rav Shteinman, I don't see where you see the lack thereof. I was just wondering if all this is some kind of PR move by whoever runs his office or something. I can't believe he decided this on his own.

Y.W. Editor said...

I never posted the story on my website since it's a FALSE report.
FACT.
Go check your facts, Tzig.
As usual......bad reporting.

Actually what can you expect from a Lubavitcher!

Yechi Hamelech!

YW Editor.

Hirshel Tzig said...

YW

I guess that Snag Ruach Hakodesh must've told you it wasn't true, I don't have any.

I'll check my facts with you next time, OK?

Y.W. Editor said...

Why is it that I (A SNAG) have to be reporting that a LUBAVITCHER girl dies tragiclly in a fire this morning, and YOU DON'T???!!!!

EAT IT BUDDY!!

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=2364

Itzik_s said...

Because this is not a news blog. We have Crownheights.info, Shmais, COL and Shturem for that.

reader said...

I think the report is true and that there is something to their approach.

Just like it bothers you when non-tzniusdik sights surround you and your kids, so it bothers people of other backgrounds who are concerned about such things too. When people in EY copy American garbage like non-tznius things it causes sinah from the frum muslims.