Monday, August 14, 2006

Will it work?



(Stage 1)



(Stage 2)


3 stage Rambam campaign started in Frum communities in New York

Read more

To tell you the truth at first I was skeptical about this new "campaign", I thought it to be a waste of time, effort and money. After all why would non-Lubavitchers all of a sudden take up learning Rambam? Upon further review I began to see some hope. A mass new acceptance will of course not happen, but I believe amongst serious unbiased לומדים the idea may hit home after giving it some thought and seeing the benefits.

There will be those of course that will look לימוד הרמב"ם as a Lubavitcher idea and will automatically reject it, that'll be their loss. In reality Rambam is as Lubavitch as Daf Yomi is Agudah, although the latter would leave you to believe that it is. The idea of לימוד הרמב"ם was instituted to increase לימוד התורה and ידיעת התורה, as well as אחדות ישראל, and those who learn it properly, at whichever pace, will attest to that.

25 comments:

A Simple Jew said...

I tried to learn Rambam Yomi at one time (one perek a day) and lost steam after two years.

Hirshel Tzig said...

after 2 years? and you call that losing steam? you couldn't continue after that? sounds strange...

A Simple Jew said...

I got bogged down in the halachos of calculating the calendar and agricultural laws and struggled to maintain focus. Eventually, I lost focus :(

priceline said...

Tzig
Sorry that I will be harsh (and you probably won't post this either)but for the sake of some truth a rebuttal of this statement of yours is needed ''The idea of לימוד הרמב"ם was instituted to increase לימוד התורה and ידיעת התורה, as well as אחדות ישראל, and those who learn it properly, at whichever pace, will attest to that.''

I have been following your blog from the beginning,I can attest that you are a 'real' Lubab,I am quite sure that you are very careful about your daily study of Rambam.Unfortunately I can also attest that the three things you enumerated, namely learning torah,knowing torah and achdus yisroel are things that you have no shaychus to:You don't learn very much you are a pisteh am ho'oretz (so much for yedias hatoro..) and you are a real soneh yisroel.
(unless you are just bluffing us and in real life you are a nice guy however your blog is full of rishes and sinah)
Btw the real reason the Rebbe initiated the Rambam in my opinion was as a copycat of the brilliant and succesful idea of R'Meir Shapira's daf hayomi.The Rebbe wanted to leave a similar legacy of a person that had made a revolution in the Torah learning of Jews.Sadly, but for obvious reasons the Daf is a great idea and the Rambam is a dud.We see no real benefits of this mumbling of Rambam, the Lubavitcher by and large have remained the same grobeh am'aratsim and very few new works on Rambam have come out in this 25 year campaign.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Priceline
I don't see why a statement like that needs a rebuttal, does everything I say need one?

I find it quite interesting that all those who claim to be offended by statements I make retaliate by making harsher statements! is that supposed to level the playing field?

Ah, yes, from 70 years of Daf Yomi we've seen an abundance of Seforim and Talmidei Chachomim, right? puh-lease. Go crawl back into your "piste" hole.

priceline said...

'Ah, yes, from 70 years of Daf Yomi we've seen an abundance of Seforim and Talmidei Chachomim, right? puh-lease. Go crawl back into your "piste" hole'

-----------------------------------
Aren't you ashamed to show your absoloute ig norance of the Torah world with your above comment?!

priceline said...

In addition to the questionable premise of a daily 'mumbling' of Rambam, the Lubavitch Rambam 'campaign' is a sign on how Lubavitch is long on beards and short on substance: 'Lihyos boki bekol hatoroh kulo!' screams their campaign poster.Let's think now for a second:Let's even grant that there is something to be gained by 'saying' Rambam, BUT DOES ONE BECOME A BOKI BEKOL HATORA KULO if one realy knows Rambam????Is the Rambam 'kol hatoroh kulo? Maybe in the average Lubab library :Sichos Kaidesh and Rambam, little else.The dumbing down of yiddishkait and Torah learning :Read daily Rambam and 'know' kol hatoro kulo,right???.
Dumb and getting dumber.
(How's the censor doing today?)

Hirshel Tzig said...

Reb Priceline

I've quite aware of what goes in the "Torah World" so please peddle your foolishness elsewhere. The only thing Daf Yomi produced as far as Seforim is that publishing houses like Artscroll and עז והדר hired groups of Talmidei Chachomim to make Seforim to help Daf Yomi learners. Not much came from those that actually learned דף יומיexcept that they remember the cute אגדתות for a very short time.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I have yet to censor one of your pearls of wisdom.

The poster quotes the Rammbam in his הקדמה that his sefer is תורה שבע"פ כולה סדורה בפי הכל , is there something with that? do we take him to task for that too?

You're obviously too smart to realize that the idea is to get a knowledge of Kol HaTorah Kulo through learning the Yad, something not possible through Limud HaGemoroh.

priceline said...

I give you some crefit for not censoring posts today, probably since you want to raise the 'hits' and posts by incensed Lubab forced to think for once

Itzik_s said...

I heard that the Rebbe actually encouraged Daf Yomi. Any sources for or against? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Do you know who's Yartzeit it is today?

n said...

priceline said:

"The dumbing down of yiddishkait and Torah learning" related to learning Rambam.

How is it that the Rebbe directing yidden to learn Rambam dumbs down yiddishkeit? Learning only bolsters yiddishkeit. If there was a directive to burn gemoras and learn Rambam instead you would have a point, otherwise you don't.
And why in your mind is there a contest between rambam and daf yomi? These are two separate events, both positive.
Lastly, the average yossi today on many levels is a more sophisiticated yid halachically then yesteryear when most were relatively ignorant. The rabbonim today are lesser than yesteryear all over, but in lubavitch thats not because the rebbe told all roshei yeshivas, etc to burn shas and learn Rambam.

Sinah said...

Priceline it is clear that you never opened a Rambam in your life! hence your not under standing what it means kol hatorah kulo...
I wonder what priceline thinks about Limud Talmued Yerushalmi?

berl, crown heights said...

What do you people know? OK, it's true that the Rambam himself says in his hakdomoh to seifer hayad that this sefer was written so that "you shall need no other seifer”. But the Rambam was a frenk, after all. Who do you thinks knows better how the Rambam should be studied - some frenk or a litvishe rosh yeshiva?
As the famous joke says וואס פארשטייט א פרענק אין רמב"ם ?

Anonymous said...

Berl

איך שיק דיר א קוש אפ'ן שטערן

yosef 718 said...

First lemme make you happy my nephew a true satmare chusid started learning in addition to Daf Hayomi he now is joining the limud of Rambam yomi, when I asked him 'bist mishige gevoren?' He said he doesn't care he just thinks its a good thing so at least on one guy the campaign worked.

Yoy simply aren't aware of the massive-ness of the Daf Hayomi. I happen to be a 'chovev seforim' and follow the 'new seforim' scene closely. By now the 'Daf' is an industrial complex to itself. All authers of seforim on Shas plan their publishing around the seder ha'daf. There are literly 100's of shuls who have bugets to purchess seforim on the daf so an auther is guaranteed a minimum of sales if the sefer comes out right before a new mesichta. If you visit a seforim store before a change of mesichte you can see piles and piles of new meforshim old and new. So to deny the ongoing and contiuing revelution of the Daf is crazy.

As for the limud itself according to shuchan aruch and from my memory this also the psak of the בעל התניא
in his monumetal הלכות ת"ת I will try to find it

שולחן ערוך יורה דעה סימן רמו
חייב אדם לשלש למודו, שליש בתורה שבכתב, דהיינו הארבעה ועשרים; שליש במשנה, דהיינו תורה שבעל פה
הגה: ה וי"א שבתלמוד בבלי שהוא בלול במקרא, במשנה וגמרא, אדם יוצא ידי חובתו בשביל הכל. (טור בשם ר"ת וע"פ ע"ל סי' רמ"ה ס"ו). ואין לאדם ללמוד כי אם מקרא, משנה וגמרא והפוסקים הנמשכים אחריהם, ובזה יקנה העולם הזה והעולם הבא,
ש"ך שם
ויש אומרים שבש"ס כו' - כתב הדרישה יש בעלי בתים נוהגים ללמוד בכל יום גפ"ת ולא שאר פוסקים ומביאים ראיה מהא דאמרינן סוף (נדרים) [נדה] תנא דבי אליהו כל השונה הלכות בכל יום מובטח לו שהוא בן עולם הבא אבל ל"נ שיש ללמוד ספרי הפוסקים דיני התורה כמו הרי"ף ומרדכי והרא"ש ודומיהן דזהו שורש ועיקר לתורתנו ואינם יוצאים כלל בלימוד גמפ"ת דהא דתנא דבי אליהו כו' כבר כתב רש"י שם השונה הלכות פירוש הלכות פסוקות ומ"ש ר"ת כאן ש"ס בבלי בלול כו' קאי אמש"ר /אמש"כ/ לפני זה אלימוד ט' שעות ביום דכיון שיש לו פנאי גדול ילמוד בש"ס אבל הנך בעלי בתים שאינם לומדים רק ג' או ד' שעות לא ילמדו בש"ס לחוד כנ"ל ע"כ:

No metion here of Rambam.. and there no heter for those who have limited time to study Rambam which is to us שלא אליבא דהילכתא and according to this ש"ך you are not יוצא in the mitzvah if you don't study the actual halacha as is paskend. I realize that the same ciritizm could be levelded at those who study the Daf "alone".

However if one learns in the modern Gemorah of Mesivta or Sha's lublin they now have the final psak for every Daf.

But I do think the Rambam as a limud turned into a dud, and doesnt come even close to what the Daf has done for good and bad (and there is in opinion a bad aspect to the daf seder for stam yidden) still the facts on the ground show that it is massive and still growing. Just like there such a thing as the "Military Industrial Complex" so there is a "Daf Insdustrial Complex"

Anonymous said...

I just saw yesterday in kisvei remam of reb moshe midner, that the holy kovriner finished many times rambam

Unkeles said...

As I saw someone ask on another forum: How many of the Daf Yomi and rambam Yomi learners are maavir sidra 2 mikra and targum every week?

That - unlike these newer ideas - is actually a halacha mefureshes in Shulchan Aruch.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yosef

you miss my point. Of course the Seforim and mainly Shas industry is now totallky geared to the Daf, but how many Seforim have been authored by BaaleiBatim who learned the Daf, close to nothing. So please don't judge Limud HaRambam by the amount of seforim or by how many Lomdim it created.

Izzy said...

Unkeles...

Look, I'm just another Chabad am ho'oretz.

I only learn the parsha (twice) and targum, daily Tanya, daily tehillim, weekly tehillim, monthly tehillim, all of mishnayos only twice a year, daily Rambam (in three year cycle), daf yomi, about 15 minutes of other Chassidus a day, only two (half-hour) shiurim of shas-in-depth per week, and shulchan orech yearly.

I'm sorry, I'm just a ba'al habayis who doesn't have enough time to do more.

yosef 718 said...

correct up to a point... as the talmud itself observes אלף נכנסים לתלמוד ... I personally know a few people who undertook to know the Daf by heart and they are now lomdim muflogim. Let's not forget the mifal hashas. which is based on the Daf those who participate, and there are 100s, are becoming lomdim. of course 'stam people by studing the daf you forget what you learn...

But If you would have checked the issue in הלכות ת"ת של הרב you would've not made your statement about the Daf that people dont remember.

So let me bring a few short outakes from the holy words of the בעל התניא הלכות ת"ת פרק ב' סי' ט
אך אדם כזה מאחר שאינו יכול ללמוד ד"ת הרבה מאד צריך שיהיה כל לימודו בלימוד המביא לידי מעשה שהן הלכות הצריכות לכל אדם לידע אותן לקיים המצות כהלכתן וליזהר מליכשל באיסורים חס ושלום והם דברים שאי אפשר לישאל המורה שבעיר או שלא יהיה יודע לישאל ולהסתפק כלל אם לא אם לא ילמדם תחלה דהיינו רוב א"ח כמעט כולו ומיעוט יורה דיעה ומעט באה"ע וח"מ כל הלכה ברורה בטעמה מהתלמוד ומפרשיו כמו הרא"ש או הב"י לפחות ולחזור עליהן לעולם

שם סי' י

...ואף שישכח הכל הרי לעתיד לבוא יזכירוהו כל לימודו ששכח מחמת אנסו שאי אפשר לו לחזור כ"כ שלא ישכח לימוד זה שלומד רק שעה קטנה בכל יום כי שאר היום והלילה צריך לו לחזור על לימוד המביא לידי מעשה והשוכח מחמת אונס אינו עובר ...

What we see here is beforק the Daf or Rambam for that matter, one has to have basic knowledge how to be a jew... it is only when one has more and extra time that one should study other things that are not למעשה

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yosef

there are always excepions to the rule, but as a general rule there is almost no learning לאסוקי שמעתתא אליבא דהלכתא in Daf Yomi even if one publication has that on the bottom of the daf. In the typical shiur, either early morning or late at night, most people are lucky to be awke at the shiur.


The same goes for many,many, yeshivos, especially Litvishe, where VERY LITTLE, if any, attention is given to Halochoh.

yosef 718 said...

You are abselutly correct.

I would just add that accordint to the בעש"ט הק' and his talmidim in many many sources learing על מנת לעשות is the only way to larn לשמה. As the תניא explains that since הוא ורצונו אחד then one is required to find out 'רצונו' only when you spend must of the time learing how to fullill 'רצונו' which is the persuit of being מיגע to establish the final psak, in order to do the will of Hashem. Only then can you claim לשמה.

However when one spends time to acheive understanding of a הוי אמינא in תוספות then it is a persuit of שלא לשמה ultimatly, because its about "you" not a ביטול of self (בטל רצונך בפני רצונו) on contrary its learning to become a למדן

So it was kind of strange comming from the lub Rebbe to institute a limud that is not in that spirit. Allthough i'll admit that Rambam is closer to the ultimate 'רצונו ית than stam gemore.

Anonymous said...

on the issue of learning halocho in yeshivas, this really deserves a post.

let me just say that the situation in lubavitch yeshivas is not so hot (forget about making ourselves feel good because the litvaks learn less).

how many bochurim with smicha etc have a clue about hil shabbs, or any other field?

the last 3/4 of an hour of seder nigle for the day is treated as wind down time.

the yeshiva must enfore what halohchos are being learnt at any given time and there must be tests on material studied.