Sunday, October 26, 2008

Carried Away A Bit?




As a Lubavitcher it's tough not to smile at an outburst of emotion like that. Chabad has always been the antithesis of emotional displays like that, ever since the Mitteler Rebbe's times. There's also the fact that people today in general are VERY skeptical of any Rebbe today that tries to emulate what he thinks the Rebbes of old would do. If there's a certain nusach to follow, or a dance to do, or a waving of the hands to perform, people are understanding that the current Rebbe is only following in the ways of his ancestors, though he may not be on their level. Most Rebbes today have come to terms with that fact and have adjusted. No longer do they claim to have all the spirituals "powers" that their ancestors had, and most will say that themselves. Neither Satmar Rebbe would even attempt to copy the routine of the old Satmar Rov on Hoshana Rabboh.

I spoke to a chossid of the Kossover Rebbe (filmed here) and asked him pshat. He says the KR has been doing it ever since he was a kid. I'm not sure I get that. What's that supposed to mean? Resident heretic DovBear added that clip to his lengthy gloating period and called the man "crazy." That's one extreme. What else can you expect of somebody who thinks BHO is the reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln. What did bother me was that the KR fed this insane man's (Dovbear's) appetite for making light of ANYTHING and everything Jewish and serious. I also would've liked to poll the people present there what they thought about what the KR was doing. Most seemed indifferent - not suprised - as is this was normal for their Rebbe and will be done again the next day. If that's so then we've got a "Kan Tzorich Livkos" on hand here, where the so-called emotions displayed here are pre-meditated and possibly bluff.

The KR is knows to be a very laid-back kind of Rebbe, as Rebbes go these days. "Proof" of this may seem lame to some of you but these little things say alot about a person in today's culture. He shuns the trappings of other Rebbes, Gabboyim, fancy clothes etc., things others live for. He'll talk to you like a NORMAL person, without rolling his eyes or talking in Rebbe code. Having said that the fact that he does Nanuim like that seems to go against everything I've heard about him before. A psychology major told me that he attributes this behavior to Scrupulousity, which is mostly seen among - lehavdil - Catholics. OCD of another sort. I fail to see the "symptoms" here. It's not like he's checking his Lulav constantly to see if it split. Then he gave some other term for it, which I fail to remember now. In any case, what we have is a case of one perplexed blogger; maybe you fellows can respectfully help me solve this mystery.

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

the KR davens many years with תנועות משונות and davens sometimes with fire like a maniac.

the test of such a person is how he acts when alone does he daven the same (he does) and when he talks to people is he normal and are his expectations of others normal.

The KR is a down to earh person, well liked and respected by many kinds in the hareidi strata and especially by the so-called bums who flock to him because he talks their language.

He has no gabai he pushes money back to givers, almost always refuses toives and Runs from Kavod. But people are running after him, the rich try to give him the poor shlep and the nudnicks talk and talk and he never stops them or gives any inkling that they are פגעים.

In short the KR is all about mending broken hearts besides being a ת"ח מופלג ומתמיד

how does his wild davening hurt anybody?

BTW the Husatiner in Tel Aviv stood for hours making such noises during nanu'im. the Satmar rebbe dis similar things and cried rivers of tears during nanu'im how does all this matter to anybody?

SatmarTC said...

KR is a REbbe,a Tzaddik
he is not interested in playing games
Many Rebbeim do similar things

BTW, you know the meaning of this niggum?

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/mfile.php?id=1604

Hirshel Tzig said...

Nice song, don't know it. He's a nice story too. Litvak turned Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

His doin' crazy stuff with dem branches...

Fred said...

I saw nothing unusual. I have seen others doing the selbe zach.

Hirshel Tzig said...

where, FRED, have you seen this?!

Friendly Anonymous said...

And I'm thinking:"I've got a job to go to, when will he finish already"!!

Anonymous said...

there is a macholokes haposkim on כסכוס העלים
I remember seeing the Reb Yoel Satmar Rebbe he did the same thing however he did have a more beautiful nigun התעוררות for נענועים
In fact it is sung by many Satmar Chupah's.

I also found this
טעם הפשוט להסרת
הכריכות בהו"ר הוא לפי שהכריכות מעכבים את כסכוס עלי הלולב86, ובמילא, גם את השמחה הקשורה בלולב. ולפי שהו"ר הוא יום האחרון שבסוכות, ו"הכל הולך אחר החיתום"87, צריך להשתדל בריבוי הכסכוס כו' והשמחה, ומצד ריבוי השמחה (המביאה ריבוי האור) דהו"ר, תתבטל במילא היניקה

none other than Toras Menachem

http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/tm/21/10&search=%D7%9B%D7%A1%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A1+%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9F

Yosef 718

Abarbanel said...

שיר על משה מפחיד הקהילה
בנענו לולבו בבית התפילה
(עיין בספר המועדים, לוינסקי שיר מיוסף צרפתי

Toby said...

Wondering what drives our youth to become "at risk"?



They offer such examples as punishments for speaking English instead of Yiddish or for being seen outdoors without a hat or jacket as regulations that ultimately drove students away.



Here's the article:

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=1777

CE said...

HT, I dunno what bothers you about the KR's nanuim - really I don't - the man is one of the few folks out there today that's "for real." The man is a shining example of honesty & integrety, and he's as down to earth as they come. The simple fact about stuff like this is:
If it's for real, it's fine; if it's a show, it's a fraud. The Kosover is no fraud.

And Toby,
Rest assured that there are many reasons that "our youth become "at risk" (foremost among them is that darn bechira thing), but hat/jacket requirements isn't one, and neither is yiddish vs english...sheesh

clarify said...

Ce -

I don't think Toby's point was that hat and jacket rules cause youth to get turned off; it is the punishment for breaking such silly rules that turns them off.

Litvak said...

BTW -

Does anyone think that the strange crying in the Stitchiner (long-beach-guy-turned)Rebbe clip posted above by Satmartc can possibly be genuine? Is there anyone here who would not be absolutely self conscious under such circumstances? And wouldn't that self-counsciousness by definition not allow you to really be focused on Ruchniyus?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“Chabad has always been the antithesis of emotional displays like that, ever since the Mitteler Rebbe's times.” I think the operative word here is ‘has been’. As in past tense. Because it seems to me (a Snag) that of the late many Lubavitcher practices are heavily influenced by the worst of this stuff. Not in this form, but in ‘holy water’ and other emotionally based practices that were foreign to the old time Chabad, which as Schneur never tires of reminding us, were a variety of Litvak.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

HT writing this “Nice song, don't know it. He's a nice story too. Litvak turned Rebbe.” about the Stechiner Rebbe brought a smile to my lips. If you really think he is a Litvak turned Rebbe you are a fool. Although I didn’t know him personally, I knew his family and remember his conversion. Nobody who knew him at the time (including well after he became Rebbe) thought his conversion was motivated by anything other than $$$$ and kavod.

n said...

I'm not mocking anyone, but this 'davening' sounds dubbed in....there is final kvetch that sounds like an old kung fu karate movie....

Αλέξανδρος said...

The reason Mittler Rebbe was against public display of emotions is that it was incompatible with the pnimiyus achieved through derech Chabad. If, however, one doesn’t follow derech Chabad to achieve the pnimiyus (assuming he attempts to follow some other derech), there is nothing wrong with emotions.

And if one doesn’t have any pnimiyus to speak of at all and is a hitzoiniusdike type of individual, then he is no better off from not having public display of emotions — he is still a hitzon.

At least this Jew is experiencing G-ttlichkeit.

SatmarTC said...

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/mfile.php?id=2543&type=Video


here we have the Bobover Rebbe


and here the Klausenberger Rebbe in Hoshanah Rabbah


you can see that there is a special Ynian in special kavones by Hoshannes

Hirshel Tzig said...

Αλέξανδρος:

and you KNOW what he's experiencing?!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Satmar TC

the Kossover video is not from Hoshana Rabba. I also don't see the Bobover grunting like that.

SatmartTC said...

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/mfile.php?id=682&type=Video

Kalusenberger Rebbe

SatmarTC said...

tZIG
u cannot hear him, but u can imagine

SatmarTC said...

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/mfile.php?id=180&type=Video

skip to minute 16

this really looks superficial

Anonymous said...

Tzig said in original post "Neither Satmar Rebbe would even attempt to copy the routine of the old Satmar Rov on Hoshana Rabboh."

I beg to differ. You should have been at Hooper. You would have seen and heard.

Hirshel Tzig said...

satmarTC

superficial? maybe. Inspiring too.

SatmarTC said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-3Of_3U1m0&feature=related

I love this, no show

myhumbleopinion said...

To all those who would like to know the fact, here they are!

First, at the sake of full disclosure, I’m a Talmud of the “Yeshiva Arugas Habosem” where the KR was a Magid Shier, and I’m his Talmud, however I am not in anyway what one would call a Chasid of the KR, although I do make it my business to meet him and shake his hand at least once a year, just for the broche, and the personnel recognition I get from him, for once learning in his shir.

Now to the point, to begin before even touching the particular issue being discussed here:

I know from personal experience (it was kind of a sport in our class to test him) the KR is an out of this world tremendous Talmid Chacham, I’m talking in “rocket science” proportions! Not only in Shas, Shulchan Aruch, Etc. But almost every Tshuva Safer in the world is ABC by him, if any Sheila came up, should it only be talked about in any Tshuva Safer, he would immediately say without lengthy hesitation “just look it up there and there”. Furthermore he is a renowned Dayan and Posek in Yoreh De'ah - he has numerous Sheila’s on a constant basis - and Choshen Mishpat in a practical day to day level, sitting with people and straightening out the most complicated Choshen Mishpat questions, it is not at all exaggerating to say he is probably one of the biggest Talmidei Chacumim today, - at least in the United States - in both knowledge an In a practical matter.

So one needs to be very very careful, when judging a man of his standing.

Now about the way he Davens, its true that at first glance it does look a little weird, it can have only two explanations, or it’s all an act, or he goes into tremendous Devakus while Davening forgetting all that surrounds him.

I can with no hesitation say the later is true, given that I was in his presence for a couple of years,

we used to go to camp, and it wasn’t a rare site to pass the outskirts of the woods and find Reb Shrageh (how we used to call him in those days before his fathers passing and him becoming the Rabbi) standing there Davening or learning with the same Devakus as he does in this clip, with complete absent mindness and no knowledge whatsoever of his surrounding, this could be in the middle of the day, late at night, or early in the morning with the sun barely out.

It was a normal occurrence that news of Reb Shrageh disappearing for hours and hours spread in camp, and all we know was, we have to start looking in the woods to find him, and at the end we found him sitting in the woods on a rock with a big Gemorah or Shulchan Aruch in his hand looking in, and after calling his name a few times he used to jump up, like somebody just burst into a quiet room with a booming noise waking a sleeping man, and asking us “what’s the matter”? Not realizing he was away for a half day, and his wife and family are looking for him high and low.

And the biggest thing of all is, that in times in-between Davening and learning the KR is the most down to earth person you will find, never will hold back a joke always smiling and commenting jokingly on what’s happening, just like one of us, as he was not this great man he in fact is, always with a good word to whomever is should be from a child to an adult, from a Chasid to a litvak Ect. The man has not one ounce of self recognition in him, and is a true Tzadik all around.

Know him said...

I concur with Myhumbleopinion

I also know the KR since the Reb Shrageh days and can attest that he is an extremely friendly person and down to earth. When he davens he totally immerses himself and forgets himself. It is total deveykus!!!

Anonymous said...

We can see here that there is no way to fake a 'shem tov'. I wish the KR much hattlachah and brachah.

Anonymous said...

to Myhumbleopinion

How well said. You can and should be proud of yourself, for standing up for your (mesivta) rebbe. And in such a hartzige way too. Thank you, and de zchiss zol dir beishtein.

BTW to twistleton etc.

As one who is somewhat acquainted with the Stitchiner rebbe as well, I just want to know how many rebbes are there in admurland who literally live for the sake of tzibrochene neshumes, like him. His entire life is spent helping these people, and young bochurim especially, and all without any pirsum (and the koved or $$$) usually attached to such activities. I have been to his tishen and his hoshana rabba davening, and his crying is with such pashtuss and emmesdig that no one has any doubts about it whatsoever, as to being not genuine.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Anoymus of Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:26:00 AM

I guess it is true that a sucker is born every minute.

Anonymous said...

twistle etc.

I am so sorry for you. I really am.

Anonymous said...

I can’t believe that you call yourself a chusid and you have the audacity to post such a post, don’t you have any thing better to write about, and it just shows your naivety in understanding true avodes hashem or maybe there's a certain jealousy, that there are chasidim that aren't following exactly your derech and still are true ovdei hashem. I don"t know about others but you who apparently did learn in a yeshivha and to make litzanus of just plain old dveikus betfila or even reference somebody else's litzanus shows on something shaky in there, sorry for being so sharp but I’m just appalled

UD said...

KR is neshoma deatzilus; halevai that the people were worthy of him being the redeemer. As long as he's around, this generation isn't lost. But nobody expects you do understand it ...

Hirshel Tzig said...

Natchalnik, is that you?

Welcome back, Khaver!

UD said...

Me it is indeed, tovarisch Tzig.

The subject of this post doesn't "emulate" the Rebbes of old. Nor is he somehow "not on their level". He's the original, someone who will be (probably already is) emulated and will be looked up as one of those real Rebbes of old. Ask around those who really know him for years, and you'll realize that nobody has anything on him. To put it in your perspective, the man is no less then, say, Tzemach Tzedek - in every meaningful way.

So be careful with your smiles. And btw, the harebrained plagiarist DovBear has a particular agenda with him on a halachic shaala and thus a longstanding fibre of hate.

Hirshel Tzig said...

you mean Tzemach TZADDIK, right?

UD said...

No, I meant what I wrote. I said "your perspective", didn't I ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I was pulling your leg, Khaver. But why the comparison to the TT, why not go all the way and say that he's BeDargas HaBesht?!

Anonymous said...

the alter rebbe's place by davening was padded since he used to role around from so much hispaylus. The Frierdike rebbe used to daven and cry for hours. His weeping could be heard by the entire minyan. Reb Itche der Masmid used to daven in winter and his clothes would bewet with sweat. There are more examples... I wouldn;t say chabad didn;t have emotional displays during davening. I agree though that it was never encouraged.

UD said...

Because you have no perspective about Baal Shem.