Monday, November 10, 2008

Breslov, Lubavitch and the Politics of Ownership


Rav Luzer Kenig of Tzfas

Word in the online forums is that the old guard of Breslov has called on its adherents not to participate in the Jerusalem municipal elections about to take place. The elections featuring Meir Porush running for mayor. Why, you ask? simple. They belong to the Kanoim faction that is part of the Edah HaCharedis and the Yishuv HaYoshon; that membership bars anyone from participating in any election in the State of Israel, even municipal ones. I'm not sure when it happened, but at some point the Breslover Manhigim like Reb Yankev Meir Schechter and others decided that Breslov and Kanoyus are one, and that they need to adhere to the laws of the Kano'im in Israel. I don't think Breslov has been organized in Israel as long as some other groups like Chabad, Slonim and Karlin have been, so it's difficult to put a time on that "transformation," if you will. You also don't have that tendency to zealousness like you do with the Hungarians and the Talmidei HaGro, so I don't know how they picked it up even after living in Meah Shearim for all those years.



Reb Yisroel Dov Odesser

Others like Rav Lazer Berland from the far-right Shuvu Bonim, whose HQ is deep in the so-called Muslim Quarter of Yerushalayim, have encouraged their ever-growing group of followers to vote, I believe, for Meir Porush. The point is that whom to vote for is irrelevant, the mere fact that they split with the old guard in Breslov says volumes about the current state of the famed Chassidus. The old-timers believe that for some reason they're the ones who know how Reb Nachman would dictate policy regarding the State, and that what they're doing follows in the footsteps of their Rebbe 200 years after his passing. The same goes for other issues; many in Breslov have decided that Kiruv is not their thing, that despite the great amounts of Baalei Tshuvah you see in Breslov that they'd like to stick to themselves just like other groups. We discussed this away back in 5766, back when the "Anti"in Anti-Tzemach still meant something. The other manhigim like Berland, Liebermansh, Kenig and Arush beg to differ, and claim to understand Reb Nachman just as much as Schechter does. Needless to say that they don't get along very well with the Old Guard...


In Lubavitch too there are young people that claim to understand what the Rebbe said just as much as the old Mashpi'im. Despite not having learned in Tomchei Tmimim they open the seforim and claim to understand just as well as the ones who've been studying the Rebbe's works for over close to 60 years. They claim that nobody is Baal HaBoss of Lubavitch but the Rebbe, and that they can just as well speak on behalf of Lubavitch as the old folks. Within both groups things have gotten totally out of hand, with splinters and offshoots ruining good names for the others, despite all the damage control efforts. Breslov proves to Lubavitch's adversaries that it's not the "Moshiach Issue" that drives the splinter groups, and Lubavitch can learn a lesson from Breslov as to how a group can both grow and fester all kinds of unwanted elements 200 years after the Rebbe's passing. Breslov has also shown how little they are able to do about all those weird groups that claim to represent Breslov; no matter how much you protest, once they put on the garb and learn the seforim and travel to Uman they're in. No amount of closing the barn door after the fact will keep the horse from running.

70 comments:

Dov said...

Breslov has no group that has problematic hashkafa ideas like they do in Lubavitch.
Say what ever you want but belief that The Rebbe as Moshiach today is problematic to say the least.
Breslov has Na nachs, but no Meshichisten or Boreinuniks.
Despite all the above, Breslov is a quite a crazy group.
Chabad unless they work out their problems are going to be a lot worse.

S said...

Hirshel,

A few heoros. (By the way, you know that the real pronounciation is "Braslev". There was a whole back and forth in the Algemeiner two years ago between Katz the Yiddishist and Dayan Leibish Landesman from Monsey. Of course the later wrote under a pseudonym. There is a city in Lita called Breslov, and that's how the mistake started.)

1. The kanoishe, extremist factions, while growing numerically, are becoming less and less important. R' Yakov Meir is posul by most Braslevers. Among ashkenazim, the overall atmosphere is more mainstream charedi.

2. Braslevers were never kanoim. The yerushalayimers created a myth that Braslev had what to do with kanoes. Lemayse, the peylishe Braslevers were 80 percent agudisten and 20 percent poalei agudisten. The Russians were apolitical, but their kids became mainstream charedi. Even many of the yerushalayimer braslevers were with Rav Kook and not with the kanoim.

3. At this point, Braslev is not a sociological group. You will find Satmarer Braslevers, Galitzianer Braslevers, Litvishe Braslevers, Sefardishe Braslevers, Teimener Braslevers, modern Orthodox Braslevers. Among the litvishe braslevers in Lakewood, for example, you have a group of guys that learn Likute Moharan beiyun (they opened up a special kollel for just that) but leig tefilin ashkenaz and daven ashkenaz. They have a tremendous emuna in Rebbe Nachman (and a hatred for the Litvishe shita), but are culturally litvaks.

Friendly Anonymous said...

What's so bad about offshoots? this way, everyone can find a derech in avodas Hashem that suits him.

Or is it the fact that they all call themselves "chabad" that bothers you? Are we going to have a recount of the Nesius election of1950? if so, Shneur can inform us (for the hundredth time) what "real chabad" is.

Anonymous said...

Very interesting comparison. There is one major difference though. The fringe groups in Breslov started 200 years after the Rebbe was niftar, so obviously the Rebbe has no part in it.

In Lubavitch these fringe groups started during his lifetime and soon after, so the Rebbe can't be absolved from this phenomena.

schneur said...

May I offer a number of other historical distinctions between Chabad and Braslov.
1. BY 1940 there were few if any geborene Breslever either in Palestine or Poland. Rav Kenig was a Peylishe, Rav Bender was a peylsihe and Rav Hurvitz was a chabad person. I doubt R. Shechter's father was a Braslover either. Thus most of even the so called Old Braslever are 1st generation Chassiidm.There ae hundres of Lubavitchers from classical Chabad families.
2. In the 19th centruy there were never more than a few hundred Braslover families in the Ukraine. later the Cahssiduth spread to Congress Poland and Israel.Chabad must have numbered tens of thousands of followers in the mid 19th century.
Next in Chabad after the petirah of the Zemach zedek there were difft rebbes of the Schneersohn line until 1924. Kopust, Reziza, Liadi, Nezhin, Lubavitch , Siratin etc.
All were legitimate. Its only the last 80 years that Chabad was united.
After all Chassidiuth itself was a fringwe group when it started...
Finally a question several years ago I wrote that Rabbi Yaakov Meir Schechter was besides the manhig of Breslov also a manhig of the Neture karta. I was corrected that there were 2 people with the same name in Jerusalem. is this correct or are they the same person ?

Anonymous said...

By the way, you know that the real pronounciation is "Braslev".

Actually, the "real" pronounciation sounds like "vr'SWAV" (Wrocław in Polish)

Mottel said...

Anon: Wrocław is in no way, shape or form the town of Braslev . . . Wrocław, located in Lower Silesia was known in Yiddish and German as Breslau. Of note known by its Polish name today, it pronounced Vrotz'wav.

Braslev, known in Polish as Bracław, is in Ukraine.

The two towns should not be confused.

Anonymous said...

SCHENUR: REV IAAKOV MEIR SHECHTER WAS REV DUVID SHECHETER ZTVKL ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENTS BRESLEVERS CHASIDIM OF IERUSHALAIM!!
SO, IF U DONT KNOW, DONT TALK!

S: ARE YOU NUTS OR WHAT? REV IAAKOV MEIR IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT BRESLEVERS RABBONIM!!!

PS: Breslev is the correct pronuntiation.

schneur said...

I remember as a youth talking to a mashpia about Braslov. Besides a different shita , he emphasized a major distinction - MIR HOBEN A REBBE-.
It seems odd to me that suddenly that distinction is not crucial and Lubavitch too can function without a rebbe.
You also fail to mention another reality that Braslov throughout its history has had its manhigim whose word was law to most of their followers. In our time Rabbis Schick, Kenig , and berland and others are basically more like an Admor than a mashpia. So even in Braslev there have been and are pseudo-rebbes.
Compare this to the matzav in lubavitch where i doubt there is 1 man whose word is accepted as final.
Perhaps Lubavitch can join democratic America and have some sort of forum discussing the need or no need for a new Rebbe/leader. I no longer claim to read the literature coming out of 770 or Isreal, but I doubt any such forum exists.
At one point in 1996 or so there was an internet site seeking to electa new lubavitcher rebbe (my candidate was Rabbi Dr. Abraham Twerski)
But seriously should not the voice of the chassidim on the ground be heard , should not the future of Lubavitch be decided by others than the people in whose interest it is not to have a new leader.
Perhaps 2 groups could function one without a leader and another without a leader.
Frankly leaderless Lubavitch is not doing that well , leaving PR aside .Lubavitch is more akin to Aish and other such Kiruv gropus than it is to Braslov or Ger.Lubavitch has morphed into a Outreach group like NCSY and other groups.

anti ignorant cliches said...

Dov said
"Breslov has no group that has problematic hashkafa ideas like they do in Lubavitch"
after hagason reb dov will quote us the mokor which disproves all the gedolei yisroel who have said that belief in Rebbe as Moshiach is not problematic acc to haskofas hatoyre, ( and if he will ask who are they, then its not even worth discussinng a question with the person who hasnt made the basic research . Boireniks were condemned in public letters by all rabonei chabad including the biggest meshichistn, so if you count them in you have to pasl every group because every group has its mehugoyim

baalbatish said...

Schneur's comment should be a post.
There should be a discussion of crowning a new Rebbe. Real Hasidim want one and need one.

Josh said...

I have been running a primary/putting out feelers for the eighth Rebbe for some time. I hope that people can add more suggestions so we can begin the slow process of healing Lubavitch and returning it to its historically important stature.

Observer said...

Baalbatish, the is no longer one Lubavitch. The factions would never agree on one person. I think the only solution is for "pseudo" Rebbes, with each faction choosing one. Kvar hoyo leoilomim that Chabad was split between many Rebbes.

Schemerel said...

>I have been running a primary/putting out feelers for the eighth Rebbe for some time. I hope that people can add more suggestions so we can begin the slow process of healing Lubavitch and returning it to its historically important stature.<

Can I nominate myself?

Hirshel Tzig said...

baalbatish

posts need to be a bit longer than that, but I see what you mean. Maybe you can add a paragraph to that and we'll combine the two.

If I may go out on a limb here and say this: much of what we see today as far as no new Rebbe was formulated after 3 Tammuz, meaning that if you'd ask a Chabad Chossid 20 years ago if there would be a new Rebbe if the Rebbe passed away he might say "we'll cross that bridge when we get there." Now that it happened nobody knows what to do so they say that there never will be one. For two reasons; 1) Whom do you nominate?
2)many said it would never happen. Taking a new Rebbe sort of makes them look bad.

I've said too much already...

Friendly Anonymous said...

>But seriously should not the voice of the chassidim on the ground be heard<

The silence on this and other uncensored blogs has been heard, and tells me that the masses don't want a new rebbe.

Bifrat, that when the Rebbe set forth his vision after 22 Teves, it included consulting with local Rabonim for any questions that arise, but was conspicuously silent on the matter of appointing a new Rebbe.

The only voice that I have ever heard clamoring for a new Rebbe have been non-Lubavitchers: aderaba, let them accept upon themselves a new Lubavitcher Rebbe :)

Friendly Anonymous said...

>they say that there never will be one. For two reasons; 1) Whom do you nominate? <

If true that despite 60 years of unparalleled growth, the movement has not produced anyone capable of leadership, what does this say about the actual success of the last 60 years?

schneur said...

Lo alman Israel. The criteria we are looking for : 1. a eynikel of the Baal Hatanya Mi-Geza Bais Rabainu 2. Lomdus 3. Some signs of leadership ability 4. Chassidiuth 5. Some knowledge of the larger world we live in.
If Dr. Abraham Twerski were a Chabad person, he would fit the bill more or less.
Remember the last rebbe was amazing chad bedora or chad bekamo doros. So its not a replica we are looking for , but a role model for the future generation and leader for our generation.
To sooth some , perhaps he should be called Mashpiah Rashi or Rosh Anash and if he succedds he will become rebbe later.

baalbatish said...

Observer,
Why should it be a pseudo-rebbe?
If the leader leads he is a Rebbe.
A Rebbe by any other name is still Rebbe. Is it that we are afraid to use the title Rebbe? Should the title Rebbe be retired like Mickey Mantle's number? Let's use a new title Neo-Rebbe.Mashpia, commander-in-Chief. Pseudo-rebbe doesn't really work. We don't want him or her (just kidding) to be fake.
I understand there is no one Lubavitch. A group of Chassidim can ask someone who they respect to be their Rebbe. The new group does not have to be called Lubavitch. It can be called Chabad-46th St., Chabad-Des Moines or Chabad-Darfur. An old name can be "resurrected". Kopust, anyone? Liozna, Liadi? It doesn't matter.
If this Rebbe is an upstanding citizen and goes in the Derech Chabad, this new group will attract sincere Chabad Chassidim that that are looking for the true derech of chassidus & to be mekasher to a living Rebbe. and other Chassidim that are looking for Chassidus
Satmar has been fossilized by their adherence to Reb Yoel. Even though they have "Rebbes" their real allegiance is to the founder.
People joined Lubavitch because they had a dynamic Rebbe. They were told that a Jew needs a Rebbe. Tzig, as you wrote this new philosophy is only 20 years old and it rings hollow. Especially to those who remember the Rebbe and his relationship to his Chassidim.
I am sure in Chabad you know who is fitting. If Chabad splinters into many groups, that's fine too. It will be like the bust up of Standard Oil. The group is too large anyways to have one Rebbe. Remember, Satmar?
"Taking a new Rebbe sort of makes them look bad". I cannot believe between the thousands of Chabad Chassidim you cannot find 10 people who don't care and have their priorities right. You may need to take an outsider with a more Chassidic bent to get Lubavitch back into the mainstream. You may not like to hear this but Lubavitch has drifted into the Modern-Orthodox camp albeit with kapotes and chumras. Chabad does stuff that is appalling even to the most liberal Hareidi, i.e. fraternization with women who are clueless that there is a concept of tznius etc.
Friendly anonymous says that the only ones clamoring for a new Rebbe have been non-Lubavitchers. If this statement is true then Chabad has gone beyond the pale and should not call themselves Chassidim. As Schneur says they are NCSY/Aish.
Like Schmerel, I throw my pointy hat into the ring.

schneur said...

Certainly I can see smaller Chabad rebbes mushrooming whose base is very narrow.
That too is good. But perhaps after a dialogue between various Chabad rabbis and roshe yeshiva etc some concensus can be reached as to the possibility of a new rebbe for a large segment of Chabad.This is a difficult task requiring real mesiras Nefesh and more so Bitul hayesh on the part of many.It will also require the right person to take up the task.
In my opinion the shlichus operation should be spun off with an independent board so that the knockers there don't get upset. That would make certain that a new rebbe could not harm these operations.The yeshiva too should be an independent corporation.. As the new rebbe gets more experience his men will SLOWLY take over these boards.
Lubavitch would become like Satmar with the baalbatim having a strong say in non religious matters.
The new rebbe can have a hoif , a kollel and a zal plus a serious Lubavitcher post high school school modeled after a Lithuanian yeshiva in terms of lernen and keep its Chabad sedorim as well.Controlling these mosdos it will take less than 20 years for him to take control.

Josh said...

I agree with Schneur. There does not need to be universal consensus but there does need to be a ממלא מקום at this point. Chabad has thrown its איכות overboard for numbers and money and will not survive the current economic downturn if they do not have some תוכן to return to. Franchises are great when the mall is in business but right now thats not happening and what is needed is a small cadre of dedicated חכמים to preserve what can be saved of this rich spiritual tapestry.

schneur said...

Chabad and Modern orthodoxy.
Well the problem is not that Lubavitch is not part of the contemporary Charedi world. that world is dominated by Hungarian orthodox concepts that Lubavitch and all of Lithuanian Jewry were never part of. that is the reason why many individual Yeshivishe graduates in the US and even a few Lithuanian yeshivas are really on the right wing on the MO world. Many graduates of such yeshivas live in Teaneck and are happy there.Lubavitch should be situated in the middle which it was for amny years.
The problem is that Lubavitch is racked with some of the worst manifestations of the low culture that marks a part of MO life.
Yet the MO communtiy has produced thousands of highly educated people in the secular world like teachers, doctors, finance people, CPA's dentists, etc. In recent years YU has produced dozens of massive lomdim and others who can handle a gemora with the best of them. The yeshiva world has produced hundreds of excellent talmidim chachomim. The other chassidic grooups have trained a whole cadre of poskim and dayanim who serve their communities and are resouces even for other comunities.But Lubavitch has produced none of these.Of course there are more than a few exceptions , but more likely than not a doctor in Lubavitch is a BT , a lamdan is a gevorener like Rabbi Heller.,

Friendly Anonymous said...

Shneur,

But what can we do when all our bochrim go into business at 21 - be it college, shlichus, or whatever- while young men in litvisher yeshivos are sitting and learning for at least 10 years more.

fakewood inc. said...

hirshel does such drivel amuse you or you have given up on these people

shmendrik said...

R' Michoel Halperin.

Rav of Givat Hatzorfati in Jerusalem.

The mere fact that an entire shchunah comprised of all walks of yiddishkeit took him as Rav despite his strong ties to Chabad speaks worlds about the man.

Big Lubavitcher Chossid.

From a long lineage of Lubavitcher chassidim.

Einikel of the Ba'al hatanya.

Massive Talmid Chacham, ba'al middos, ba'al eitzah, etc...

Was in the running to be Chief Rabbi of Israel after being pushed by many people.

Is held in high esteem and has credibility by both Litvishe Roshei Yeshiva and Chasidishe Rebbes

What more can Chabad, or any other kehilah for that matter, want in a manhig?

dor hashmini said...

שמענדריק

interesting choice, very intriguing, I never would have thought of him, but I can see why you did now that you mention it.

Has he written seforim?

Has he taught in yeshivos?

shmendrik said...

dor hashmini,

Yes, he has written Seforim.
He has a sefer of sheilos u'tshuvos.
I forget the name at the moment.
If he has more I don't know.

I would imagine that he taught in Yeshiva somewhere alng the way. But agian I'm not sure.

Either way, as far as I am concerned, it makes no difference wether or not he has written seforim or taught in Yeshiva.

The fact is that he is an adam gadol who people from all walks of life are very machshiv, they seek his advice, ask for his guidance and look up to him.

That coupled with the fact that he has very strong Lubavitch roots and is a big Chabadsker is a tremendous anomily.

dor hashmini said...

may I ask if you have any connection to him? have you spent time with him?

shmendrik said...

Forgot to mention that R' Avrohom Michoel Halperin is also a member of the Chabad Beis Din....

shmendrik said...

dor hashmini,

I have a very slight connection to him. Cusin of a cusin of a cusin type...

I have only met him three or four times, each time only for a few minutes.

But in those few minutes it did seem to me that he was a very special person.

He clearly seemed to have shas and poskim on his fingertips.

I have other relatives that are closer with him, and have met others who have encountered him.
The general consensus is that he is a very very special person.

SatmarTC said...

I Heard that many years ago, someone was pushing to become the new LUB Rebbe
who was?

Mosheleh said...

The Shemtovs and ilk will blow up 770, burn Kingston to the ground and attack any supporters with bats before anyone dares take the position.

Thats if the Tzfatim don't kill the candiddate first. It's just not going to happen. Ephraim Piekarski was fired from Oholie Torah just for suggesting it once at a Farbrengin.

fakewood inc. said...

thank god they fired the guy stop trying to bash the fastest growing group in the jewish world.

as for the rebbe position. there are housands of letters from the rebbe directing us how to behave and answers to all possible situations.

the bigger question you should worry about is a manhig for am israel and not worry about one group "why cant am israel chose one person to lead them".

OH Yeah there is someone who is still directing through his torah and shluchim the rebbe. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFE. and go back to ur "Gedolim" who go out of their way to create controvesy.

not that there arent real gedolim but the people you associate the real ones with make the real ones look bad.

dor hashmini said...

if we learned anyhting from Obama it's that people don't like old men telling them what to do. If the new rebbe is to succeed he needs to be young, at least not above 60. That would exclude Twerski and probably Halperin too.

I nominate Reb Chaim Sholom Deitsch. That way the new Rebbe would wear a shtreimel too...

fakewood inc. said...

hahahahaha

dor hashmini said...

what are you laughing about?

fakewood inc. said...

because what you said is funny

dor hashmini said...

the whole idea or just Deitsch? and why?

fakewood inc. said...

the whole idea that your looking for a rebbe. im actually dont know deitch so i cant say anything about him.

fakewood inc. said...

telll me where he is from

dor hashmini said...

are you old enough to have seen the Rebbe, zt"l? then maybe that's why you say that. the next generation needs one or all is lost.

fakewood inc. said...

im 22

fakewood inc. said...

i learn the rebbes chassidus and ask people i respect for advice there are enough good people out to learn from. you must actively seek them out. as pirkei avos and the rebbe says tahase lecha rav(find yourself a mashpia) ans those people dont want attention or want to lead. hence actively seek them.

dor hashmini said...

22? well you may have seen the Rebbe, but definitely not for long. Maybe that's good enough for you.

Reb Chaim Sholom is from yerushalayim, he's the Rosh Kolel of Tzemach Tzedek in the Old City and a very popular maggid shiur.

Here's his picture

fakewood inc. said...

is he the one that comes to the ohel. because that deitch looks over 60

fakewood inc. said...

he is really under 60 and yes he is a great speaker i know who he is i just thougth he is much older.

fakewood inc. said...

didnt see the link to the pic in the first post and i only saw the rebbe as a baby because we lived in south america.

Hirshel Tzig said...

click on the words "here's his picture" above...

fakewood inc. said...

no i meant when asked about the ohel i hadnt paid attention to the link when i saw the photo i realized who he is.

schneur said...

Halperin is a good candidate . I read about him over 30 years ago in Panim el panim when he was a young rav near Tel Aviv.

fakewood inc. said...

i think we should make charlie for rebbe.

satmarTC said...

I think that LUb stays like Breslov, until Moshiach times

fakewood inc. said...

lubavitch is nothing like beslov because the rebbe left us clear instructions. in his hundreds of letters as i said earlier.

yoshe kalb said...

Schneurke, keep on dreaming. I agree a 100% with Mosheleh's prognosis of what would happen to any serious candidate for the Rebbistve.Besides having to fight the Meshichists and being suicidal,he'd have to deal with the shluchim, AGUCH, Zeire Chabad, the principals of most moisdos etc, all of whom don't have ANY interest in a new Rebbe.Since 3 Tammuz they just can do whatever they want, without being accountable to anyone ( at least that's what many of them think ).If anyone has a chance then it has to be someone that is not afraid to build a new Chabad from scratch and leave Lubavitch Inc on the side.
Back to the original post:
There are some fundamental differences between Lubavitch and Breslov
a) Breslov was never a dynasty
b) Breslov has virtually - to the best of my knowledge - no minhogim of its own
c) Breslov doesn't follow a specific nussach - although most of the Ashkenasi Breslovers daven Nussach S'fard
Anyone studying Rebbe Nachmans works, practicing Hisbodedus, saying Tikkun HaKloli ( and maybe travelling to Uman ) can call himself a Breslover. I have noticed on the other hand - especially in recent years - that there are a lot of people from the whole spectre of Orthodox Judaism from Satmar to serious Hesder students that are really "kochen sich in Chassidus Chabad" without adopting the outer trappings of Lubavitch and without identifying themselves as Lubavitchers. I think in the long run there will be Chabad Chassidim and Lubavitcher Chassidim as two distinct groups.

SatmarTC said...

Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky seems to be the real candidate

Joe in Australia said...

I don't think there could be an eighth Lubavitcher Rebbe, for the reasons others discuss above. I don't think this is a bad thing: the idea that there is a single Chabad rebbe is an artificial thing caused by the tragic circumstances of early 1900s. Let anyone qualified to be a rebbe (and there obviously are such people) be one openly, and rejoice that we are following the Rebbe ZTz"L's direction to "aseh lecha rav". If there can be, or needs to be, or actually is a neshama klolis for our generation is something that can be left to the philosophers.

inBP said...

Shmendrik, quoting you.
"R' Michoel Halperin.

Rav of Givat Hatzorfati in Jerusalem.

The mere fact that an entire shchunah comprised of all walks of yiddishkeit took him as Rav despite his strong ties to Chabad speaks worlds about the man.

Big Lubavitcher Chossid.

From a long lineage of Lubavitcher chassidim."

Ok, just fyi. Rabbi Halperin is from his grandmother side a Chbdsker, his father Halperin was Ruzhin/Bian and if I'm not mistaken Rabbi Halperin learned in the Chevroner Yeshiva a shpitz Lutvishe place.I think he is related to Refoel Halperin, the "strongman" who's father was a Vienesse Jew aLSO a follower of "beis Ruzhin"
I'm happy I came to this discussion late, cuz I know the Goat would never have posted any of my posts.
I honestly cannot believe the Goats comments actually addressing the the fact that Lubob inc is rudderless and maybe the time has come to a)Accept the Rebbes passing and b)appoint a new leader.
Someone actually voiced (amazing that Goat actually allowed the comment thru!)the problem with the Rebbe after so many years of leadership not leaving anybody capable of taking on the rebbisteveh.What does that say???
I can't add anything cuz I know Goat won't post.
Gut shabbess all, Goat included.

who says so said...

"R' Michoel Halperin.

Rav of Givat Hatzorfati in Jerusalem.

The mere fact that an entire shchunah comprised of all walks of yiddishkeit took him as Rav despite his strong ties to Chabad speaks worlds about the man.

Big Lubavitcher Chossid.

From a long lineage of Lubavitcher chassidim.

Einikel of the Ba'al hatanya.

Massive Talmid Chacham, ba'al middos, ba'al eitzah, etc...

Was in the running to be Chief Rabbi of Israel after being pushed by many people.

Is held in high esteem and has credibility by both Litvishe Roshei Yeshiva and Chasidishe Rebbes

What more can Chabad, or any other kehilah for that matter, want in a manhig?"

Another way to describe him is as being an example of everything wrong with Chabad. He is pretentious, false, with exaggerated yerushalaimer duplicity. He is not the great scholar you make him out to be. His entire life is revolved around PR and advancing himself through people skills of a run of the mill, b aksheesh taking, poltitician.

who says so said...

the only qualified candidates for the next Rebbe have unfortunately left organized religion, though not Chabad thought.

Hirshel Tzig said...

oh? like whom?

don't tell me a "chulent" guy

who says so said...

Halperin is the most laughable choice and I am surprised you got away with it. How about another fake yerushalaimer chabdsker, the so called "Rav Hakotel", Rabinovitz, son of the Peres endorsing Rav Rabinovitz, his having gone against the Rebbe's explicit directives in the parsha of Shamir/peres in the early 90's.

They both have everything fake and external needed to succeed and lead in today's Chabad.

who says so said...

tzig,
no names, but do ask Yoiel Kahn next time you see him who has the best mind in Chabad, and who was the top choizer in the mid-late 80's early 90's, and who has imbibed the Rebbe's torah in Chabad better than anybody excluding himself. Ask him. Then get back to me

inBP said...

Who says so?
Who are you alluding to?
Not, R'Zalman Schachter I know.Though he would have been a great choice of Rebbe had he not left.
Looks like Lubab inc may be coming around to the idea of a live rebbe.
Healing takes time.Lubab inc has to accept the Rebbes passing and heal the rift with the rest of the heimishe oilem.It's starting to happen.S-L-O-W-L-Y...
Look, if a partisan hack like Goat, the Lubob version of partisan-attack dog Rahm Emmanuel has allowed the "thought" of new leader it means his handlers are getting the message.
Maybe even Lesches could be in the running?
(Darn!Now he has an excuse for not allowing the comment thru...I mentioned his ruv..)

friendly anonymous said...

who says:

are we talking computers or law?

that guy said...

who says so:
r' michoel halperin fake and external?! is that a joke?! you must be referring to somebdy else...

schneur said...

Lets face some reality , no human being is perfect, if you are looking for a perfect candidate that person does not exist. In fact with all honor to last rebbe as a candidate he too had some serious issues , but he showed that they were not important in the long run.
I will repeat what I once wrote -- something I saw in the Will of Reb Arele Roth in the name of the Noam Elemelech that where there is no leader , the Samach mem becomes the leader, layder how true !

Anonymous said...

schneur,
who was r arele roth?

Anonymous said...

schneur,
forget that, although you may answer if you wish... but i got the info

Anonymous said...

http://berlyomi.blogspot.com/2006/06/3-tammuz-can-there-be-another.html

bahaltener said...

"Breslov has no group that has problematic hashkafa ideas like they do in Lubavitch"

Shuvu Bonim (R' Berland) has problems that are akin to extremal meshichistn to some degree. I.e. problems with relation to the tzaddik. There are other problematic groups like Nanachs and R' Shick (though they are on different poles of problems i.e. anarchy v.s. totalitarizm).

Those who follow the mesoyro of Reb Avrohom Shternhartz (Reb Luzer Kenig and his chevraya) are not kanoim (and aren't boycotting elections).

The base for boycotting elections IMHO was borrowed from anarchists by kanoim. It is spelled out explicitly in Vayoel Moyshe, that voting will not affect anything (since frumers are a small minority), and therefore is senseless altogether. This idea is purely anarchistic (obviously Satmar Rebbe ztz"l was familiar enough with anarchistic approach). Some Breslovers are gravitated to anarchy and this might make them closer to kanoim in this aspect. While other Breslovers don't like it.