שאלה תמימה מקורא א': למה ביקש הרה"צ ר' לוי יצחק ש"ס אביו של כ"ק אדמו"ר שיעשו זכר ל"מצוה טאנץ" אצלו אם לפי"ד זקינו כ"ק הצ"צ נ"ע זה קרוב לג"ע
31 comments:
Shroshei Minhogai Chabad
said...
there is no question its a old Minhag in Klal Yisroel as the Rebbe answered for a Rav who inquired on this old Minhag, with the Chazal on Buma, it was loved by the Ovas (Avrohom Yitzchak and so on) but it is shunned for the kids, the same with Mitzva Tantz, it was good then but now it is.... The Rebbes father did not know every minhag or letter that was in the Bies, Harav, as he did many minhogim different from the Bies Harav
yesh loimar, he did it to cheer up Rebbitzen Chana whose oldest son was getting married that night in Poland. in reality, he never saw the Rebbe after that, and she did 18 yrs later.
I "love" reading the shallow lubob comments, koching in silly minutae with boich sevurehs.
A)The Goat has not presented any source for Tzemach Tzedekcalling mitva tantz "kurev ligiluy aroyos" (quite a forceful accusation of many ehrliche Jews, don't ya think)
the goat only published such an accusation.Uh huh Ok, most chasidics do mitva tantz and calling it kurev ligiluy aroyos is a horrible accusation. But it's ok for lubobs.As long as you don't accuse them.They are perfection
Whichever idiot said he never saw the rebbe again go back to school the reason the rebbe didnt leave europe with the fr was because he went to gonspend succos with his parents
Sorry got mixed up he went to spend succos at home after the fr left russia that elul, the rebbe went home for succos this was right before the rebbe got married
Volvy "Ok, most chasidics do mitva tantz and calling it kurev ligiluy aroyos is a horrible accusation. But it's ok for lubobs.As long as you don't accuse them.They are perfection" I don't know the source, but if its true, you think the Tzemach was not enough bar Samcha to differ with any rebbe in his era, in Nigleh or Nister... Was he the only rebbe that offered a statement other Rebbes, check out sanz vs. Sadiger, Ropshitz vs, Kotzk. Shpole vs, Breslov etc.... eventough it was a vort said for his own people...
Moshe "Based on what is the claim made that the Rebbes father didn't "know" all minhogei Chabad?" there are many, But I will give you 3 He said Akdomus on shavous(which the rebbe is saying too) He said Shir Hashirim by the Seder I think his Talith was different then the Chabad talith, not by the Tzitzes, but other customs...
why are the stripes on a chabad tallis broad and distinct, unlike all other talleisim? I can always tell a chabad tallis from a mile away. why those specific stripe patterns?
this thread is going all over the place. 1. in likutei shichos #34 pg 291 they printed 3 answers from the Rebbe about MT, and he doesn't mention the Tzemach Tzedek. IMHO answer #2 is the operative one "I didn't hear about it,however seeing in reality what it has descended into at many weddings sees the reason" (this is my poor translation of the Rebbe's answer)
2. The Rebbe's father was a city rov. for example, in his shul he said the yehi rotzon before kiddush hachoidesh from the bima. when leibel groner made sefer haminhagim, he asked the Rebbe about printing the Rebbe's minhagim vs. the way it's been brought down in sichas from the previous Rebbe's. The Rebbe told him to print whatever has a source in the Chabad seforim and not necessarily the Rebbe's minhag. He told me this regarding the Rebbe's "oiseh sholom" which was different from the printed one. According to him, many of the Rebbe's minhagim were from his father.
About akdomus, it's printed in the siddur, and no one has given a good reason why we don't say it. the Rebbe was seen saying it during kriah bein gavra l'gavra. The Rebbe rolled his tallis inwardly and hid the stripes, but AFAIK never gave the reason or connected it to his father's white tallis.
Cherkaser It is nowhere written about that, there was some talk on the anti Mamorim stance of Chernobel vs.Chabad. There is also possible that the other Rebbes of Chernobil were not so stubborn on their Minhogim as the RYY of New Square who made this Minhogim as the pillar of Yiddishkiet, to terrorize the minhogim dissenters to death. Its very possible that a deal was made before the wedding not to do the MT. Or plain and simple the Chabad Rebiem walked out and left them dancing till the morning.
Mendel from the shaar hakolel you conclude, that he is not sure if it was in the original siddur. it is not sourced in Chazal and Arizal, so it was optional in Chabad Shulls, but the sefer haminhogim made it into a de facto minhag, it was probably the will of the FR, since from the Rebbe side he was related to the shaar Haolel too, he was a Ziede, and his own father said it too.
Cherkasser the vort of the Tzemach tzedek is when he heard that the Rebbe of Chernobel used a gartel by the dancing, which was a no no by a lot of Rebbes as the shinever ruv too...
Interesting how the Lubob can supposedly quote the Mitva Tantz as korov ligiluy aroyos, and nobody takes this Cult (capital c..) on this terrible and bizarre accusation. But Lubobs get away with a lot worse. They are full of "havas yisruel",beclompish, and even fuller of "ahavas atsmom" And a ferd like this mindless Tzig is their "spokesman" Ukdai bizoyon....
Srul "But Lubobs get away with a lot worse. They are full of "havas yisruel",beclompish, and even fuller of "ahavas atsmom" Explain, how is it worse, I dont get it
Maybe the Lubavitcher Rebbes gave in to their mechutanim mipnei darkei shalom. The only option you consider is that they somehow won. Didon Notzach started long after chabad stopped being meshadech with chernobyl.
31 comments:
there is no question its a old Minhag in Klal Yisroel as the Rebbe answered for a Rav who inquired on this old Minhag, with the Chazal on Buma, it was loved by the Ovas (Avrohom Yitzchak and so on) but it is shunned for the kids, the same with Mitzva Tantz, it was good then but now it is....
The Rebbes father did not know every minhag or letter that was in the Bies, Harav, as he did many minhogim different from the Bies Harav
In addition to what Shroshei wrote, it could possibly be R. LY had kabbala sources pro-MT which outweighed (in his perspective) the cons..
Based on what is the claim made that the Rebbes father didn't "know" all minhogei Chabad?
Also, any documented source that the Tzemach Tzedeck said its karov ligilui arayos r"l?
yesh loimar, he did it to cheer up Rebbitzen Chana whose oldest son was getting married that night in Poland.
in reality, he never saw the Rebbe after that, and she did 18 yrs later.
You expect us to believe he would do something forbidden just to cheer someone up?
I "love" reading the shallow lubob comments, koching in silly minutae with boich sevurehs.
A)The Goat has not presented any source for Tzemach Tzedekcalling mitva tantz "kurev ligiluy aroyos" (quite a forceful accusation of many ehrliche Jews, don't ya think)
the Goat never made that statement, it was a commenter, Volvy, so beat it.
the goat only published such an accusation.Uh huh
Ok, most chasidics do mitva tantz and calling it kurev ligiluy aroyos is a horrible accusation.
But it's ok for lubobs.As long as you don't accuse them.They are perfection
Whichever idiot said he never saw the rebbe again go back to school the reason the rebbe didnt leave europe with the fr was because he went to gonspend succos with his parents
which Sukkos did he spend with his parents, exactly?
A couple days after the fr left europe forgot exactly which year but i think it was 5700
sorry, it's baloney
his father were already farshikt to Kazakhstan by then
Sorry got mixed up he went to spend succos at home after the fr left russia that elul, the rebbe went home for succos this was right before the rebbe got married
Volvy
"Ok, most chasidics do mitva tantz and calling it kurev ligiluy aroyos is a horrible accusation.
But it's ok for lubobs.As long as you don't accuse them.They are perfection"
I don't know the source, but if its true, you think the Tzemach was not enough bar Samcha to differ with any rebbe in his era, in Nigleh or Nister...
Was he the only rebbe that offered a statement other Rebbes, check out sanz vs. Sadiger, Ropshitz vs, Kotzk. Shpole vs, Breslov etc.... eventough it was a vort said for his own people...
Moshe
"Based on what is the claim made that the Rebbes father didn't "know" all minhogei Chabad?"
there are many,
But I will give you 3
He said Akdomus on shavous(which the rebbe is saying too)
He said Shir Hashirim by the Seder
I think his Talith was different then the Chabad talith, not by the Tzitzes, but other customs...
Shroshei
the Rebbes fathers tallis was different in that it was all white (al pi kabalah) unlike the chabad minhag which has black stripes
in the early years the Rebbe would roll/fold over his tallis so it looked like it was all white like his fathers tallis
a reason is given (dont know if it is correct) that some of the difference in minhagim is because he was rav in a ashkinazic shul
that being said it does not mean that the Rebbes father did not know minhagei chabad but rather had his reasons for doing different
Some apologetics, some roundabout reasoning, but no hard information about the Mitzva Tantz.
why are the stripes on a chabad tallis broad and distinct, unlike all other talleisim? I can always tell a chabad tallis from a mile away. why those specific stripe patterns?
this thread is going all over the place.
1. in likutei shichos #34 pg 291 they printed 3 answers from the Rebbe about MT, and he doesn't mention the Tzemach Tzedek. IMHO answer #2 is the operative one "I didn't hear about it,however seeing in reality what it has descended into at many weddings sees the reason" (this is my poor translation of the Rebbe's answer)
2. The Rebbe's father was a city rov. for example, in his shul he said the yehi rotzon before kiddush hachoidesh from the bima. when leibel groner made sefer haminhagim, he asked the Rebbe about printing the Rebbe's minhagim vs. the way it's been brought down in sichas from the previous Rebbe's. The Rebbe told him to print whatever has a source in the Chabad seforim and not necessarily the Rebbe's minhag. He told me this regarding the Rebbe's "oiseh sholom" which was different from the printed one. According to him, many of the Rebbe's minhagim were from his father.
About akdomus, it's printed in the siddur, and no one has given a good reason why we don't say it.
the Rebbe was seen saying it during kriah bein gavra l'gavra.
The Rebbe rolled his tallis inwardly and hid the stripes, but AFAIK never gave the reason or connected it to his father's white tallis.
Chabad was mishadech with Chernobel several times, it can't be that there wasn't a mitzva tantz at those weddings!
וועגן אקדמות זע שער הכולל אז צוליב די מאריכים בתפילה האט מען דאס אויפגעהערט זאגן.
מענדל
Cherkaser
It is nowhere written about that, there was some talk on the anti Mamorim stance of Chernobel vs.Chabad. There is also possible that the other Rebbes of Chernobil were not so stubborn on their Minhogim as the RYY of New Square who made this Minhogim as the pillar of Yiddishkiet, to terrorize the minhogim dissenters to death. Its very possible that a deal was made before the wedding not to do the MT. Or plain and simple the Chabad Rebiem walked out and left them dancing till the morning.
Mendel
from the shaar hakolel you conclude,
that he is not sure if it was in the original siddur.
it is not sourced in Chazal and Arizal, so it was optional in Chabad Shulls, but the sefer haminhogim made it into a de facto minhag, it was probably the will of the FR, since from the Rebbe side he was related to the shaar Haolel too, he was a Ziede, and his own father said it too.
Cherkasser
the vort of the Tzemach tzedek is when he heard that the Rebbe of Chernobel used a gartel by the dancing, which was a no no by a lot of Rebbes as the shinever ruv too...
They usually danced holding hands with daughters and granddaughters.
Interesting how the Lubob can supposedly quote the Mitva Tantz as korov ligiluy aroyos, and nobody takes this Cult (capital c..) on this terrible and bizarre accusation.
But Lubobs get away with a lot worse.
They are full of "havas yisruel",beclompish, and even fuller of "ahavas atsmom"
And a ferd like this mindless Tzig is their "spokesman"
Ukdai bizoyon....
shineve
who are they??
Srul
"And a ferd like this mindless Tzig"
or a tzig, or a ferd
make up your mind, I see the Cult (capital C)is overflowing your brain,
Srul
"But Lubobs get away with a lot worse.
They are full of "havas yisruel",beclompish, and even fuller of "ahavas atsmom"
Explain, how is it worse, I dont get it
Maybe the Lubavitcher Rebbes gave in to their mechutanim mipnei darkei shalom. The only option you consider is that they somehow won. Didon Notzach started long after chabad stopped being meshadech with chernobyl.
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