Monday, May 12, 2008

Death Of Ashkenaz


הרב ר' יונתן שטייף זצ"ל

Viener Kehillah In Williamsburg Changes Nusach To Sefard!

After 67 years of Ashkenaz in the Hungarian/Oberlander style the Viener Kehillah has ceased to exist as we know it. The reason given is that the clientèle has changed now, and nobody there save for a few old men davens Ashkenaz anymore. ( I just wonder what the reaction would've been if this was a Lubavitcher Rov who came into an old Ashkenaz shul, brought in new people, and then changed the Nusach because the people there daven Nusach Ari....)

Ashkenazishe Yid writes:

Death Of Ashkenaz ???

Nope, just the death of Viener Ashkenaz in one part of Brooklyn (other Viener branches elsewhere are still davening Ashkenaz at this time). In a way it serves them right, they took a Chassidishe Rav, what do you expect, you think he would fight for nusach Ashkenaz ? This is not something that happened overnight, they have been building up to it for years, by kowtowing to and consorting and flirting with Chassidic elements. If they would have stood for what Vien used to stand for, it would be a big change, but the Oberlanders there have long been outnumbered there by Unterlanders. It's still a disgrace and they should be censured, but it's not the big earthquake you are making it out to be.Let them change their name to something else, maybe Viener Chassidus, but they don't deserve the name Khal Adas Yereim nor a claim of being the successor of the Schiffschul in Vienna anymore.

קהל חסידי וויען ד'וויליאמסבורג is the new kid on the block, goodbye קהל עדת יראים ד'וויליאמסבורג.

77 comments:

Anonymous said...

We still have Hamburger of the Chipas Tallis,

Ashkenazishe Yid said...

Death Of Ashkenaz ???

Nope, just the death of Viener Ashkenaz in one part of Brooklyn (other Viener branches elsewhere are still davening Ashkenaz at this time).

In a way it serves them right, they took a Chassidishe Rav, what do you expect, you think he would fight for nusach Ashkenaz ? This is not something that happened overnight, they have been building up to it for years, by kowtowing to and consorting and flirting with Chassidic elements.

If they would have stood for what Vien used to stand for, it would be a big change, but the Oberlanders there have long been outnumbered there by Unterlanders.

It's still a disgrace and they should be censured, but it's not the big earthquake you are making it out to be.

Let them change their name to something else, maybe Viener Chassidus, but they don't deserve the name Khal Adas Yireim nor a claim of being the successor of the Schiffscul in Vienna anymore.

קהל חסידי וויען ד'וויליאמסבורג is the new kid on the block, goodbye קהל עדת יראים ד'וויליאמסבורג.

Ashkenazishe Yid said...

Moral of the story - If you are not Chassidish, don't hire a Chassidishe Rav.

The Chassidishe Rav reportedly justified the change by saying that it is what the people wanted. Is that how he leads his kehillah? Does he take a poll before paskening?

Who is leading who?

פּני הדור כּפּני הכּלב

Anonymous said...

"We still have Hamburger of the Chipas Tallis,"

R' Hamburger is promoting Ashkenaz (German), קהל עדת יראים is Polish / Austrian / Hungarian.

Two different set of Minhogim.

Yehuda said...

"Nope, just the death of Viener Ashkenaz in one part of Brooklyn (other Viener branches elsewhere are still davening Ashkenaz at this time)." From what I hear even in BP they are slowly changing Minhogim.

"In a way it serves them right, they took a Chassidishe Rav, what do you expect, you think he would fight for nusach Ashkenaz ?" Did R' Katz himself Daven Ashkinaz?
"This is not something that happened overnight, they have been building up to it for years, by kowtowing to and consorting and flirting with Chassidic elements." Many Hungarian and Oberlander Rabonim flirted with Chassidic elements, The previous Vienner Rov R' Lebowitz tried hard to promote Minhogei Ashkenaz.

"If they would have stood for what Vien used to stand for, it would be a big change, but the Oberlanders there have long been outnumbered there by Unterlanders."

"It's still a disgrace and they should be censured, but it's not the big earthquake you are making it out to be." I think it's very historical, it's probably (one of) the last remaining Oerlender Kehillos. Half of today's Hungarian Chassidim come from Oberlander heritage, but I doubt many have any idea what it is/was.

"Let them change their name to something else, maybe Viener Chassidus,"
Szombotheli Chassidus?
"but they don't deserve the name Khal Adas Yireim nor a claim of being the successor of the Schiffscul in Vienna anymore."
They don't want the name KAY anymore nor do they know anything about the Schiffscul, all they whant is the name Vein and the realestate.

קהל חסידי וויען ד'וויליאמסבורג is the new kid on the block, goodbye קהל עדת יראים ד'וויליאמסבורג.

Zvi said...

It's a tragedy that a nusach hatefilla used by all our Ashkenazic Rishoinim and gedoiley hachroinim is forgotten.Rash'i, Baaley Hatoisfos and Rabbeinu Haram'o forgotten a tousand years of mesoiroh forgotten?
S'iz takkeh pnei hador kipnei hakelev!
In the Ramo's shul in Krakow nobody dared change the nusach despite the fact that most people had changed to nusach sefard and it was the seat of many migdoiley hoadmoirim

CHNYOCK said...

well at least in the old shuls in"kan tzivo..." the still keep the minhogim.

Anonymous said...

Didn't ALL original Chassidim change from Ashkenaz to Sfard? Hey - we still have the Shnitzel.

Anonymous said...

It is mindboggling that this Rav actually affirmed at his inaugural Drosho, in front of a thousand people,"That he will never change the Nusach" yet it is he who masterminded and pushed this change. This Drosho is actually published in his sefer "Shemen Roish" and therein he also inserted the promise not to cahnge any Nusach.
It creates doubts if this Rav is actually honest.

yehupitz said...

Oy. Stop nagging. A shul's minhogim will always ultimately reflect the people who attend the shul. There comes a tipping point in every shul when you look around and realize that nobody is following the minhag. You then adjust.

It happened to the Glen Avenue shul in Baltimore whose Lubavitcher Rov, a chossid of the FR, was adamant about its keeping the Yekkishe Minhogim. That's one of the reasons they retired him and converted to 'standard' Litvish ashkenaz with a smattering of German minhagim for old times' sake.

That's why most shuls all over the USA dropped Yotzros and Krovetz's etc years ago: They noticed that nobody was saying them anymore.

snag said...

If the Rav broke a public pledge as claimed above, he should be removed from his position.

Re "R' Hamburger is promoting Ashkenaz (German), קהל עדת יראים is Polish / Austrian / Hungarian.

Two different set of Minhogim."

Oberland minhogim are fairly similar to Yekkishe minhogim. See the recently published (last few years) sefer, 'Minhogei Hakehillos'. They are closer to each other than Litvish and Yekkish ones are I believe.

I heard a Hungarian of Oberlander descent, a fellow by name of Yedidye, say a while ago that Oberlanders are 'Hungarian Yekkes'. I think that is a good illustration of the similarities between the two groups. It was not an accident that a number of successors of Rav Hirsch in the Frankfurt KAJ kehillah Rabbonus came from Oberlander background.

Re the decline of Oberlander Ashkenaz bichlal, there was a fine article in the Algemeiner Journal some years ago, part of a series on different frum communities, that described how many of them joined the Chassidishe world, while others joined the Litvishe velt, leaving a much diminished group in the old Oberlander way.

Anonymous said...

I am a Yekke & all I have to say to the Viener Kehilloh is Nebisch! I wouldn't have the guts to start up with the Ohr Zorua & all of his followers. Furthermore, someone should remind the Rabbi (whis stands for Ra Beinei Hashem) that what he is doing is saying that all of the original members of the Shul & it's Rabbonim were ignorant fools. It takes one to do something like that!

evanstonjew said...

Wow...much appreciated and informative. I have always had a hard time placing Oberlander even at the time the Viener Kehila got started. The Matasdorfer was the rav in a shul where the nusach was sefard, but he darshened and spoke this 18th century Deutsch-Yiddish, the same sort of phonology you find in R. Yaakov Emden’s seforim. I was in Erloy in Katamon not so long ago and it was this curious mixture, Ashkenaz but rebbish.

Could someone explain to me besides the 5 kehilot in Austria what other geographic areas or yichus are sufficient for someone to count as an Oberlander?

Anonymous said...

'That's why most shuls all over the USA dropped Yotzros and Krovetz's etc years ago: They noticed that nobody was saying them anymore.'

I don't know if there ever was a time that most shuls said them, and, actually in your standard chasidishe Hungarian shul Yoitsres are still said, i.e most shuls in Williamsburg and Boro Park

Anonymous said...

I once heard that the Satmar Rav said after the war, that there will still be chasidishe yidden, litvishe yidden, sfardishe yidden, etc. But the amohlige ehriche Ashkenezishe Yid will be lost forever.

Unfortunately it is true.

Anonymous said...

"CHNYOCK said...
well at least in the old shuls in"kan tzivo..." the still keep the minhogim."
I just heard someone say that the Chaim Berlin Kollel Ashkinaz Minyan that used to be on President Street and then moved to a basement on Kingston corner? when they were going to close down R' Stock (the one who passed away recently) said The Rebbe would not want the Minyan to close down so he hosted the Minyan in his dinning room. No one there Davened Nusach Ashkenaz (R' Trenk etc.) but whoever davened for the Umud Davened Ashkenaz.

snag said...

"The Matasdorfer was the rav in a shul where the nusach was sefard, but he darshened and spoke this 18th century Deutsch-Yiddish, the same sort of phonology you find in R. Yaakov Emden’s seforim."

Yeshiva Chasan Sofer (Mattesdorf) in Brooklyn davens sfard now. Years ago when I stepped in there, I was quite surprised to see that. I asked someone from there to explain it. He said that after the war, most of the people (around the Mattesdorfer Rav I guess) were sfard so they davened sfard. I don't know how accurate that is though. Maybe the merger with the Chassidish Yeshiva R. Shlomo Kluger had an effect too. I think (assume/hope?) that the Rav still davens Ashkenaz privately though, as I have heard is the case with R. Shmuel Wosner.

"Could someone explain to me besides the 5 kehilot in Austria what other geographic areas or yichus are sufficient for someone to count as an Oberlander?"

It was sheva kehillos not five, of the region 'Burgenland'.

I believe they were Mattesdorf, Lakenbach,Tzelem, Frauenkirchen, Kobersdorf, Eisenstadt, Kitze, based on what I have heard, and on a look at the sefer Minhogei Hakehillos.

See http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~shtetlmaster~BURGENLAND_f22~ZZ~MILES~~~~~SE~~

(Deutschkreutz = Tzehlem)

Anonymous said...

"Didn't ALL original Chassidim change from Ashkenaz to Sfard?"
But most started their own Congregation. They did not take over an established Kehilla.

yoshe kalb said...

Snag, it's Kittsee (not Kitze). To the best of my knowledge,as Oberlaender all descendants of Slovak and Hungarian Yidden that follow in the footsteps of the Chassam Soifer qualify.The original Oberlaender have a distinct pronounciation ( Shevuees, Boruch yomerue etc ) making use of the "Umlaut", which any other Yidden are unable to pronounce. Unfortunately, like the Yekkes they are a vanishing species. The reason IMHO might be, that both groups could flourish only in their natural habitat. I think it was impossible to create German-style communities ( including the use of German ) in countries that were at war with the countries of their origin.

Anonymous said...

People from outside Willi don't have the faintest idea how deteriorated the Kehila was in the last years of Rav Lebovitz. It was 70% empty with no youth in there, he was assisting families to get apartments in the projects on Wilson St. with the condition of davening atleast 1 Tefilo every shabbos, and it didnt help much.
Rav katz got a lot of life in the kehila with new blood and 97%
nusach sefard

If you look into the Seforim of Reb Yonasan you realize that he was a big Chosid of the Munkatcher when he was the Ravad of Budapest,

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

My bris was in Chaim Berlin Kollel Ashkinaz Minyan. In those days there were many akenaze daveners. In the years that I went (the 1980s) there were few other than Rabbi Marcus. They still said Behab in those days.

The mattersdorfer Rov keeps all Askenaze minhagim, including tepillin om Chol Hamoed, much to the distress of his children. In E'Y' most Oberlander became Litvish, in USA most became Chassidish. So you have a intresting situation where the EY cousian are spitz litvaks and the amreican cousians are spitz chassidim.

browser said...

if over 90% of the mispalelim in a shul daven nusach sfard,it absolutely does not make sense in davening nusach ashkenaz,and in my opinion al pi halacha you have to daven sfard

chaim

snag said...

אל תטוש תורת אמך is not something to be trifled with. You don't take your mother's stuff and dump it in the garbage, even if it's old and not particularly in style at the moment.

Of course, if it's not your mother, but just someone else's, the feeling is different. This Rav is a stranger, so it's easy for him to discard the heilige mesorah here.

לא תוכל לתת עליך איש נכרי.....

Styles come and go, fashions change, but you don't dump your mother when she is old, even if she doesn't look as nice on the surface as the young veiblach nearby.

The heilige Maharil warned against even changing a nusach, the traditional melody to a part of tefilah, and felt that tragedy had come upon him because he once did so. And that was just a small change.

Let the new blood go back to where they came from and let the Oberlanders keep their minhogim. If someone needs a blood transfusion they need to get blood that is compatible with their own, not otherwise.

Anonymous said...

to ztigele

recently you have taken upon youself to be g-d's bookeeper like g-d would hv chosen you to decide what is right or wrong in this world suce as squerer chasidos and the winer shull that you critisize while you inore all everything thats going on in your crown hights back yard

such as the depresing pictures of
chasidim,nebech who were standing in the long lines in yom tov passing by the table of the rebee with cup of wine in their hand and saying lechayim to the rebees table and empty chair, and the brain of these depressed boys are so screwed up nebech to say lechayim to pieces of furniture "a table and a chair

and this is a symptom of a deep seated disorder in chasidos chabad r"l

now going back to yr critic of the squerer hatzole

i will not judge this time if they are wrong or right

however its strange that you feel
so overconfident to critisize the squerer chasidid while there is a lot to critisize chabad who are on the orher side of the pole

for example:
i remember in the previous years
ל"ג בעומר there was a parade in front of 770

there was marching bands of all kinds and also the us militar bands

aldo i dont understand what parades and military bands has a שייכות with rebee shimon ztzal or with chasidos

however it was even more disappointing seeing in front of the rebbe passing the ladies military band and the rebee was salouting the ladys band with his hand.. , i am sure this is in total סתירה TO תורת החסידות....

now if you crisize the squerer
for bieng overly frum, it is far much better to be uber frum or whatever you have complains abt to the veiner then the rebee salouting pictue i hv seen
at the lag bomer parade

(the salouting of the rebee to the ladys band was also printed in the algeminer jurnal wich shows that lack of understanding אז עס פאסט נישט פאר חסידים אין די רבי צי סאלאטירען נשים!!

Hirshel Tzig said...

רבי איד

וואס באדערט אייך?

Anonymous said...

rebee tzig

what bothers you whats hapaning with the squerer or wiener while you have so mush problems in chabad crown hgts

its


חרב איש ברעהו
...

its also a good idea newsworthy to explain the rubaskin debacle in iowa...

all nat. newspapers feel its fit to print..

Hirshel Tzig said...

You seem to be new to the blog, so I'll say this again: I'm a partisan who looks out for the good of my party. My party is Chabad-Lubavitch through the generations, so I don't focus on the negative of Chabad. I leave that for all the others. Please try and understand that, OK?

As far as Rubashkin goes; all I can say is that it seems to be an immigration issue, with disgruntled former employees going to the authorities and telling on them.

The Rubashkin family are Tzaddikim, as any of you who frequent the store and restaurant in Boro Park know, so there's no need for me to defend them. Most of the "dirt" on them comes from jealous competitors and morons such as Yudel Shain.

Anonymous said...

dear tzig

i appreciate yr openess

be matzliach..

Hirshel Tzig said...

Anonymous

ביי אונז זאגט מען "ביי אונז איז אלעס אפען", זיי מצליח און קום נאכאמאל

Leiby said...

I hate partisans.
It is such an unjewish trait.Jews love emmes and partisan automatically=sheker, since a partisan never rebukes his own and always looks to farentfer his own avlos.
Since you are a partisan why are you criticizing others?Hanishmo cazois?Toil koiro mibein eynecho!


Stam modneh to me that a guy who recently joined a party should be broish hamedabrim of that party?!

Leiby said...

'As far as Rubashkin goes; all I can say is that it seems to be an immigration issue, with disgruntled former employees going to the authorities and telling on them. '

What is your chidush? That it 'seems' to be an immigration issue??It is, the question is if the people running the show don't have enough daas not to do such a moronic thing how trutworthy are they when it comes to Kashrus??

'Yidel Shain a moron'
Biz der vail, he has been right about most things and since you have admitted that you are a partisan, you must've been dictated that response from the real morons employing your services at the Lubab p.r and brainwashing department .

I''ll understand if you don't post this since partisans only post things that make them look good.

yirmiyahu said...

I have just come across this site and I have to say that I am sickened and saddened by what I am reading. The comments here are from "religious" people who are pouring out the worst negativity and lashon hara about our rebbaim and their fellow Jews. I am used to this here in Israel amongst secular politicians, but to do it under the guise of self-righteousness in the Torah is a true Hillul HaShem. Destroy this site. It is facilitating divisiveness in our people.

Mottel said...

I find it interesting that despite the fact that many "litvaks" shtam from poilen, ungvaren and the like -where sfard was davvened by their heilige mammas and tatehs, yet now daven ashkenaz with out a problem, the change now bothers them.

schneur said...

Rubashkin family - zaddikim .
What about dina demalchusa dina !?? What about chilul hashem ?? Are these inyonnim mentioned ins Sefer haminhogim or Hayom YOM ??
Waht about drug manufacturing in their daled ames ?
What about Guns on site ?
And alst but not least in this case creating anti Semitism in Postville with various extra curricular activities of their Jewish employees.
And lets not forget the world famous second cut and the fact that these zaddikim (is it a higher rank than chasid?) sell their Glatt kosher plant to Goyim on Shabbes. O sure its halachically sanctioned, but what did the Divre Chaim think of this sort of game in Galicia ? Did rabbi Ber Manischewitz sell his plant on Shabbes , did Reb Israel Rokeach sell his plant on Shabbes ?
You know what if this is what Zaddikim are like let me spend my time with pashute Yidden.

Hirshel Tzig said...

schneur

your hate to Dor Hasvi'i Chabad clouds your otherwise clear judgment. You assume they knew what the Mexicans were doing there in their quarters, and you assume that all allegations are true.

schneur said...

Permit me to tell you a story about the Chofetz Chaim . A shochet was acused of doing something terrible. He ran to the Chofetz Chaim screaming rebbe men zogt az ich tu dos und dos ,dos iz nit an emes. the Chofetz Chaim replied dos darf noch zayn an emes!!!Es is genung as men zogt !
Pray tell me why similiar charges are not filed against Empire, Meal Mart Hebrew National etc. Why not against Wise Poultry or David Elliot ?
You can tell me that Rubashkin did not know that two thirds plus of his work force was not legal ?? In that case we can extrapulate that Rubashkin knows nothing about the kosher qualities of the meat killed there too. Same logic.
So this is not a chilul hashem ? If you beleive that US govt laws are not to be obeyed , then you ought to come out and say that openly on your site as a way of thanks for the country that took your parents etc and other jews into the US. Thank you Uncle Sam . your laws are not to be obeyed making more profit is more important for us Jews.
Your claims are exactly what is wrong with discussions in the frum world. each person stands by his political party right or wrong. Have you ever criticized any Lubavitcher for any of his behavior ? Can a Lubavitcher make a mistake. Highly doubtful.
The Rubashkins are not only innocent but Zaddikim as well. I guess the Spinker blood still flows there...
Chabad "mont a bissele emes" a bisele ...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"I find it interesting that despite the fact that many "litvaks" shtam from poilen, ungvaren and the like -where sfard was davvened by their heilige mammas and tatehs, yet now daven ashkenaz with out a problem, the change now bothers them."

Of course, the parents of those "heilige mammas and tatehs" davened Askenaze, unless your a separdi in Poland. Not likely. So they are returning to their roots

Anonymous said...

Lieby
Walmart had a immigration problem years ago and they run a very efficent business,If 1 of the Herzogs will run a red light then Kedem will become Yain Nesech, You fool

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Hold your horses, there is a teshuva of Rabbi Weissmandel in Oir Yisroel(Monsey) on that subject and if you have halachic Hasoges you are welcome to answer but don"t have your deep chabad hatred make you in to a fool.

Anonymous said...

Being so partisan as to be blind to one's own group's shortcomings is nothing to be proud of and is the root of many evils.

Hirshel Tzig said...

WRONG!!!

being partisan is to have respect for what you believe in. Realizing that your party has shortcomings, but not publicizing them. Working from within to try and correct the problems.

Hirshel Tzig said...

comparing a shlacht hoyz to a Matzo factory is asinine. Not that I know all that goes in Iowa, but I know that much of what is said about Rubashkin is said by Sonei Lubavitch and jealous competitors, both owners and Rabbonim Machshirim, many of whom have a hard time knowing how to kasher a chicken, let alone give a hechsher.

Anonymous said...

The northwestern counties of Hungary were generally called Oberland.

Anonymous said...

dont try to make this into a klall yisroel vs. chabad hatred

chabad isolated themself!!! with their outlandish believes and dios kefira r"l!!!

1) beliveing that the rebee is alive ���� �� god like r"l!!!!
and the rebee is ���� �"�

this is quit similar to the believes of the notzrim r"l,
you only have to look at theire
crazy yarmikals inscribed as above �� ���� ���� �� that the rebee lives forever like god r"l


2)that the rebee is elected as mosiach

elected by whom? oh i forgot the rebee elected himself!! as mosiach while he was alive

and the whole think about the funeral and the buriel in queens is a hocus-pokus , and in fact you can see in the chabad newspaper pictures of the hudreds of crazed lubacs stand in long line to give lechayim to the REBEE'S EMPTY TABLE were the rebee suposedly seat's


aldo nobody see"s the rebee on his seat , well he is superman

not only is the 770 of today full with dios kefira,its also outight
crazy

so you rest assured that nobody hates or mekanhe the lubabs

they are simply ashamed that such a big eidu of yiden convertted to believe and a new kult at wich yiden and goyim
are wondering how tousands of chasidim got suddenly crazed r"l
and envolved into a jim jones like kult r"l of wich rabbi? springer is a big facilatator r"l

and not one of the lubavs elders have the guts to scream that the lubavs are getting crazier day by day and they are going down the drain!!!!

Hirshel Tzig said...

stop hakking a chynik. nobody was talking about chabad anything. this is about the death of Oberlandishe/Ashkenezishe Judentum as we know it. Either say something about that or wait for the next Chabad vs. World conversation. It'll surely happen very soon.

Anonymous said...

dear tzig

perhaps you are right

its more important and convinient to discuss the situation in wien or the squerer,and that theire defenders are hating the lubavs for no reason then dissussing the emunu danger in lubav

Leib said...

The Minhogim of קהל עדת יראים are (almost) identical to those in Sefer Haminhagim of Rabbi Eisik Tirna. Rabbi Tirna compiled his Sefer Haminhagim, in about the year 1400, based on the Minhogin in Austria at the time. When the Jews moved further east to Hungary, Poland and the surrounding countries these Austrian Minhogim became their standard. The Sefer Haminhagim was very popular and printed over 100 times; it was also printed in the back of many Siddurim and Machzorim. This Sefer is the basis for the Mapa (Ramoh) on the Shulchan Aruch.
[See in introduction to Sefer Haminhagim published by Machon Yerushalayim]

Viener said...

"nobody there save for a few old men davens Ashkenaz anymore"

There are a number (although admittedly, not very many) of Yingerleit that still Daven Ashkenaz at Vien in Willi. They all feel very hurt and saddened. But some say it’s a necessary step.

shimmy said...

Why is what nusach you daven such a big deal???
All European nuscho'os are basically the same

Milhouse said...

I just spent a Shabbos in FFDM, and expecting at least a me'ein of the FFDM of old I prepared by listening to clips from this site. I have to report that the davening at the Westend-Synagogue was pure Polish-Litvish in every respect. Not even a zecher to the Yekkishe nusach and minhogim of old.

And that was Friday night and Shabbos morning, which were at least Nusach Ashkenaz. Shabbos Mincha/Maariv are in the shtibel rather than the main shul (they're in the same building), and therefore Nusach Sfard.

Then again, before the War the Westend-Synagogue was not Orthodox (there's a non-functional organ in the building), so one can argue that it never had that nusach and minhag in the first place, and there's no reason why its current mispalelim should adopt them.

yoshe kalb said...

Milhouse,
maybe you should first explain that FFDM means Frankfurt on the Main. Like almost all communities established in Western Germany after WW II, Frankfurt has no connection whatsoever with the Pre 1945 kehilloh, not the general one and not the Hirschian "Austrittsgemeinde". These communities were founded by East European survivors and DPs who introduced their nussach, mainly Sefard. If you look for some authentic "Yekke" shuls you have to go to Breuer's in NY, munk's in London or the IRG shul in Zurich.

Milhouse said...

Yoshe, you forgot Basel, and of course Yerusholayim. But I was expecting something in the "mother city" of Yekkedom, and it was disappointing to find it all so familiar!

Milhouse said...

PS: I takeh had considered going to Basel for Shabbos instead, but I had to fly out of Frankfurt early Sunday morning.

Josh said...

I think there is a yekkishe shul in Munchen if you want yekkim in germany. In the Lauder yeshiva in berlin there is Artscroll and maybe one or two rodelheims on the shelf.

snag said...

" shimmy said...
Why is what nusach you daven such a big deal???
All European nuscho'os are basically the same"

So why did the Viener change then?

Guravitzer said...

Yirmiyahu, so if we close our eyes and mumble it will go away?

Anonymous said...

anon. May 13, 5:55!

It all boils down to the honesty of the current Rav, Rav Asher Anshel Katz, who took the position of Rav in an Ashkenaz Kehillah, promised publically in front of thousands of people, not to change the Nusach, yet decided to change his mind, (or rather, this was his wish and mind from the begining) and this is deceit and total lack of honesty on the Ravs part.
It is a shameful situation.

Anonymous said...

Yoshe, you forgot Basel

No, IRG in Basel is a hybrid right from its very founding some 80 years ago - mixing a lot of Eastern European (yes, even Chassidic) practices into its nusach, because many of the original members and founders were of that background. Thus it is a mixture of FaM AND Nusach Sefarad.

Anonymous said...

Anon
It all boils down, can the 15 pure ashkenazi yidelech pay the Electric bill for the big shul? So eventualy it would have close down and sold to Satmar Visnitz etc.. so imagine it happened now and there will still some remnants of the old Kehila left, In matter of fact all the previous Rabonim were ideological Chasidim but they didnt change the Minhogim.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"this is about the death of Oberlandishe/Ashkenezishe Judentum as we know it. Either say something about that or wait for the next Chabad vs. World conversation. It'll surely happen very soon."

Funny

Anonymous said...

Schneurs slander on Rubashkin is ridiculous, non of the Agriprocsesors officials were questioned by the ruthless agents and here comes a Jew claiming all kind of blood libels as true, Mendel Beilis should thank God that you weren't alive in his time, with self hating Jews (especially lubavitchers) like you every pogrom in Ukraine would be justified,
the all establishment from the priests down in Iowa is outraged on the white supremacist agents, and Schneur is hollering Chilul Hashem

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:58
Firstly, are you so sure there are only 15 pure ashkenazi yidelech.
Secondly, why not sell the Shul
(acourding to http://cinematreasures.org/theater/16060/ it has a capacity of 966-1,000) and build a smaller one and with the proceedes they will be able to maintain the shul and pay the electric bills etc.

Anonymous said...

Anon

For all Ashkenazi preservation groups
Marovis on Yom Tom evenings will still be said at the Viener shul plus the Kidush on friday nites

Updates will come in a few days

Anonymous said...

anon may 19, 6:15pm...

"Marovis will be said....."

Until the dishonest Rav will again decide otherwise.
Why do you think this promise is any more honest then his original promise in front of thousands of people.

Anonymous said...

he is not dishonest he is a realist

Ashkenazishe Yid said...

There are various rooms there in the building. Besides the main Shul, there are rooms where people learn during the week. Why can't there be an Ashkenaz minyan in one of those rooms ? Just like until now there were both Sfard and Ashkenaz minyonim, why can't there be an Ashkenaz minyan now too ?

Or there could be an early Ashkenaz minyan bihashkomo, since the Chassidim daven later.

If there is no Ashkenaz minyan, no self-respecting Ashkenazishe Yid should daven there. There are other Ashkenaz minyonim in Williamsburg where they could daven, even if they would have to walk further to them, לפום צערא אגרא. They would get additional שכר הליכה / שכר פּסיעות. Maybe some older people would be hard pressed to walk, but anyone that could, should.

Ashkenazishe Yid said...

It's called salami tactics.

They introduce hodu and kigavna, claiming they are just adding a kapitel tehillim and shtickel zohar, then they start making sfard minyonim, still leaving some Ashkenaz, then they change the whole nusach.

We have to be on guard from such people who want to (chas vesholom) consign the holy mesoira and minhogim of Ashkenaz to the dustbin or perhaps to museums.

Hirshel Tzig said...

wasn't his father an Ashkenazishe Rav? And his Zeide the DunaSerdeheler Rav? didn't they daven Ashkenaz?

Ashkenazishe Yid said...

"he is not dishonest he is a realist"

אין דבר עומד בפני הרצון

Let's be honest here. His heart isn't in the derech of Ashkenaz.

Anonymous said...

His Zeide was not the DunaSerdeheler Rav. He was the Rov in a Shul there - Kehel Adas Yisroel. I think it was a more Chasidish shul than the main shul.

Hirshel Tzig said...

now that you mention it, I now seem to remember that the MaHarYaTz of Margareten's grandson was Rov there, Weinberger.

Anonymous said...

What Ashkenazi Minyanim are still ieft in Williamsburg? Nitra?

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Shmuel Levi Weinberger was Rav in DunaSerdeheler 1906-1925 His son Hillel was Rav from 1925-1944.

The former Rav was a nephew of the MaHarYaTz of Margareten.

Anonymous said...

To Anon

"He (the Viener Rav)is not dishonest, he is a realist."

Is this an excuse for being deceitful.
Is this an excuse for lying in public.
It is quite shameful for any and all of you, to use any excuse for deceit and dishonesty.
How can one get up in public and teach Mussar and Ethics when he finds an excuse for his shortcomings.

avrumik said...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

In E'Y' most Oberlander became Litvish, in USA most became Chassidish. So you have a intresting situation where the EY cousian are spitz litvaks and the amreican cousians are spitz chassidim.

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:30:00 PM

In America they became Kalte Litvakkes as well. Look at Lakewood. It's full of Schwartzes and Weisses and other "colors". All Hungarians!

snag said...

FYI, this week's Yoseid has a few letters related to this topic, some of which give information about other Ashkenaz minyonim in Williamsburg.

Ashkenaz lives on and continues to light up the Yiddishe velt with the heilige mesorah of Ashkenaz.

לא ימושו מפיך ומפי זרעך ומפי זרע זרעך אמר ה' מעתה ועד עולם !

Ay, you might ask, there are some traitors and defectors ? There were the same in the past, but the mesorah goes on. They jump ship and throw their heritage in the garbage. Hey, there are fools all over. Just because someone is 'frum' doesn't guarantee that he is not a shoiteh.

snag said...

I am also reminded of the old moshol, משלו המושלים, דגים מתים נתפסים בזרם, דגים חיים עומדים בזרם. Those that leave their mesorah, to go with the current מאדע, למה הם דומים.....