Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Aiming to please whom?


(Rabbi Avi Weiss of Riverdale)

I referred to Rabbi Hertzfeld as a Mah Yofis Rabbi. I realize that it may be more of a shem haMush'al than a real term to describe him and his agenda, but that was the best I could come up with at the time. What I meant was that he seems to be more concerned with the supposed terrible plight of these illegals than with the fact that he knows none of the facts. All he's doing is believing the radicals agendas of the mob-infested labor unions and the radical agenda of PETA, the most unscrupulous organization known to man. An organization that has no qualms about lying and cheating to get their agenda pushed onto others. The fact that a Rabbi of a supposed Orthodox shul, who surely has benefited from the fact that Rubashkin is the sole supplier of kosher meat in thousands of venues across the country would go and make a statement like that without ever being asked for his two cents is shocking and embarrassing. In Israel today "Mah Yofis" would refer to a man who always sees fault in the ways and actions of his frum brethren. Thus, the good Rabbi here fits the bill, in my opinion anyway.

Reader "Bray of Fundie" disagrees. He writes:

"Without commenting on your case or Rabbi I'd quibble with your terminology, Tzig. I think it's impossible for an MO to be a Mah Yufis. The archetypical "Mah Yufis" was utterly contemptuous of the Grahf/puritz even while dancing for him. In our long golus informed by physical and, mostly, political impotence our approach towards those by whom we were nigleh (exiled), in whom we saw a mortal enemy, and whom k'mayim punim ehl punim we feared and loathed was to achieve a modus vivendi by maintaining a low profile and earning our livelihoods however they let us. We routinely khanfed, bribed, outsmarted and manipulated them whenever posssible.This approach is still the primary one for most Charedim, although we are richer and, in the west, physically and politically more empowered than our forbears ever were.

However the ideology of Modern Orthodoxy engages and embraces non-Jews in general and Western Civilization in particular. Science, medicine, the arts and High-Tech are not there merely for us to exploit and enrich ourselves with, but to pursue careers in and help build. MOs do not share the visceral hatred of goyim that we feel. They do not incessantly repeat halakha b'yodua sheh'Eisov sonei l'yaakov like some kind of a mantra. Hence IMO by definition they cannot be mah yufis'ls. The mah yufis khanfes he before whom he dances. The difference between khanifa and a compliment is sincerity. The MO sincerlry admires many planks of secularism, higher education and non-Jewish culture and mores. Despite pronouncing a shelo asani goy every morning the words probably stick in this Rabbis craw as, no doubt, the words shelo asani isha do.

I'd be surprised if he did not feel greater empathy and even identity with the "oppressed" yet Catholic uncurcumcised labor force at the plant than with the Charedi, Jewish "oppressors." MO has liberated it's adherents from the constraints of Jewish particularism. They are free to tsk tsk "Chilul HaShem" at every tiny perceived and/or real infranction of their co-religionists and don't feel beholden to the concept of "my people....right or wrong.""

41 comments:

baalbatish said...

http://www.workerscompinsider.com/archives/000876.html

May 19, 2008

Meatpacking in Iowa: Not Exactly Kosher?

Postville Iowa is a one traffic light town with a population of 2,300 people. Last Monday, as we read in the Washington Post, 17 percent of the town's residents were arrested in a raid coordinated by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). All were employees of AgriProcessors, the nation's largest producer of kosher meats.

The unusual story goes back to 1987, when Aaron Rubashkin and other members of a Lubavitch Hasidic sect moved from Brooklyn to (mostly Lutheran) Postville. That would have been a culture shock (on both sides) worth observing. In the years since, AgriProcessors has established itself as the town's main employer. The company has also become notable for dubious workplace practices: routine violations of fair employment laws, hiring underaged workers, falsifying documents on workers, wastewater pollution problems and inhumane slaughtering of animals.

So once again (remember New Bedford?) we have one of those highly ambiguous situations: the feds raid an employer who is exploiting undocumented labor. Federal actions have a veneer of concern for the workers, but these quickly evaporate in the context of ICE's primary function: arresting and deporting illegal workers. Some of these undocumented workers have been with the company from the beginning. As Eduardo Santos, 27, a worker who lost two fingers in the plant put it: "The raid was fair...but it's bad for everybody. There's no work."

Eduardo, if you will forgive the pun, has put his finger on the crux of the matter. These are jobs few are willing to take. The working conditions are abominable. The company owners may invoke a "higher law" in attempting to follow kosher rules, but they are demonstrably deficient in their application of the more mundane laws which govern the way we work.

Big Fish, Little Fish
There is a sense in all of this that the workers may not be the primary target of the raid.(See an excellent summary by Debra Nussbaum Cohen in the Jewish Weekly.) To be sure, the workers face very difficult times, leading inevitably to deportation for most. The feds, however, have positioned themselves to go after AgriProcessors's owners. Rabbi Sholom Rubashkin, the plant operator, finds himself accountable to rather formidable authorities of the conventional sort.

There are no clear winners here. The workers have been freed from jobs which they willingly embraced; they are about to be thrown out of their adopted community. Jewish consumers have lost their primary source of kosher meats. The town of Postville has lost its primary employer and will soon see the evisceration of its tax base.

The Postville saga is indicative of the overall undocumented worker dilemma: workers of last resort tolerate intolerable conditions because they are not supposed to be here in the first place. They take jobs no one else will take. Their pay and conditions fail to meet our basic standards, but are still far superior to what is generally available in Guatamala and Mexico, where most of these particular workers came from.

The ICE raids put a temporary halt to unacceptable working conditions in one small town. A handful of undocumented workers will be sent home. Some managers might end up in jail. It's not even a drop in the proverbial bucket. It's a drop in the ocean. Nonetheless, if members of Congress pay attention to the single drop hitting the water, they might remember it. They might actually try to do something about it.

schneur said...

AS far as social action goes, why not once in a while put down the Sifre Dach and read and think about the Neviim and their message.Its a message of social justice , caring and harsh criticism of the "sheine Yidden" of that time. Believe me they were not talking to the Rubashkins and other grvirim in Jerusalem in a posative tone.
When one hears Chabad on television programs and other propoganda the impression is clear that Chabad is concerned about all of humanity not just Jews. One hears famous Goyische actors talking about the dance of life .. Thats the impression in the Messianic ads in the newspapers and other calls for GOOD Deeds and being Nice to people. I never see the emphasis on doing good deeds to Jews only. What about the Mivzeh of the Sheva Mitzvoth ?If in fact thats the case then again lets have transparency.
As I said in my last comment all many people are asking is a bit of objectivity in this matter.
And don't you think its enough about Rabbi Herzfeld unless there is a hidden agenda here.

snag said...

I believe R. Herzfeld is a musmach of YCT, the Yeshive of R. Avi Weiss shown in your photo.

R. Avi Weiss is from Bobover opshtam, he is the son of R. Moshe Weiss. Also, YCT features prominently R. Ysoscher Katz, a Satmar product, on the faculty. Also, especially noteworthy for you, it features Lubavitcher R. Chaim Rapoport as an instructor, albeit not full time, as he lives in the UK, for one thing.

So vos vilst du fun R. Shmuel Herzfeld, he went to a Chassidishe Yeshive, un yetzt du host taynes ayf em ??? He is not the stereotypical MO guy that has no shaychus to Chassidus, he went to a Yeshive with a strong Chassidishe imprint on it ! Er iz a Chassidishe talmid !

schneur said...

Snag ! And another visiting professor there Dr. Marc Shapiro is desc . from Bobroisk from Chabad people too. The Satmarer yunger mann iz "eych nit abi ver", he is an eynikel of the rav of Shichun Satmar in Bnai Brak - the late Riskever rav ZT"L.

arbiter said...

A little Google research wouldn't kill you guys. He is a Musmach of YU.

http://www.rabbishmuel.com/biography.cgi

He received rabbinic ordination from the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary,an affiliate of Yeshiva University, and a Masters in Jewish History from Bernard Revel Graduate School of Yeshiva University.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Has no one anything to say about the ideological distinctions I've made between Charedi and MO and the difference between chanifa and praise?

Anonymous said...

נו, נשים

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Katz is not a Einikel of the Riskever , he is maybe a nephew.
According to the 7 mitzvohs of Benai noach you have to help a Mexican that needs a job. Maybe the Navi would be very pleased with people that help a poor Mexican get some cash, to send home to his family.
Where is immigration mentioned as an Issur? why are they sub-human just because they live in a diffent country? maybe the Navi does not like racism himself... maybe he would stand up for immigrant rights?

Hirshel Tzig said...

let me get this straight: if I live in New York and my rent is 1800 a month, and I earn 12 dollars is that as bad as paying an illegal 7 dollars an hour to live in an apartment that he pays 350 a month for?

so can I tell all those bosses that pay 12 bucks to their yungeleit that they're evil and should be shut down?

Anonymous said...

This guy is no different than you! You tance mah yofis with Shmuell Buttman

shloime miller said...

Yes, the article neglected to mention the one big winner in this whole story - Shmuel Herzfeld.
You see, it's 'major' stories like this that provide the raison d'etre for social activists masquerading as Rabbi's like Herzfeld. A quick glance at his shul's website is sufficient to show that his program has nothing to do with torah/mitzvos, rather, it's a cover for a socially conscious publicity hound. Since MLK-day only comes once a year, and he may not really enjoy black gospel music anymore, Herzfeld had to find a new agenda. Unfortunately for him, his silly statements about this whole parsha only serve to highlight his shocking ignorance of yoreh-deah, in addition to his flagrant flouting of even-hoezer.
Piece of advice for you, Shmuel. Go back to college and keep your social activism where it belongs - far away from Torah. Oh, and please drop the 'Rabbi' title - you're a shocking disgrace.

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

R' Shmuel Herzfeld didn't go to YCT.

I actually think your description of the MO~Hhareidi divide is very accurate, Bray.
I'm definitely MO — i never even heard of this "mah yofis" business until today.

berl, crown heights said...

"paying an illegal 7 dollars an hour"

Tzig,

You are dreaming, go to the corner of McDonald & Church on any morning and try hiring an illegal worker for less than $10-$12 an hour! They are not stupid, they make cheshbeines and if Rubashkin was paying them less than they could get elsewhere, they would not work for him, not a one of them, never mind hundreds! For those of of you that had no experience in hiring these types of workers, you need to understand, they are here in the US of A to earn as much as possible, spend as little as possible and send the rest home to Mexico or Guatemala. If, combined with living expenses Rubashkin covered, they would be sending home less than from another job in another city, they'd be gone in a flash! Therefore, by definition, it is impossible "to take advantage" of them.

Now, is working in a meat-packing plant an ideal upwardly-mobile career? Definitely not. But does that mean that it should be called abuse? Not if you have an objective bone in your body! If this is abuse, then the whole society has to revise its views on work and market realities, not just one Agri...

As to all the allegations of OSHA and safety violations and reports of "workers without fingers", why don't you people find out what Agri's "experience modification" rating is for Workmen's Comp Insurance? That will tell you if their facility has a higher than average occurrence of of work-related injuries. I somehow doubt if any of the "defenders of the workers" bothered to do so. Also, please tell me if you know anyone that was ever inspected by OSHA and was found with zero violations! It is virtually impossible! If you as much as missing one safety poster of the right size posted in the right place, you face fines!

Elo mai? They hired illegals and broke "dina demalchusa"? Cry me a river, morons! What about the other 11,999,630 illegals that were not arrested two weeks ago? Yes, the ones hired by everyone else, the ones that make everything you stuff your pasty-white faces with, the ones that build every house you mefunokim put your fat asses to sleep in, the ones that clean after you lazy useless bitches-wives that only know how to shop? Hiring those and living off their toil is not against "dina demalchusa"?

And the worst shfichas domim of all – מה עניין שמיטה אצל הר סיני ? – what's it all got to do with "kashrus concerns" you lowlifes keep bringing up again and again? You have an issue with kashrus? Why don't you worry about the kashrus of the shit you eat on your fancy vacations when no one is looking? And, most importantly, why don't you address the "kashrus concerns" with those that are responsible for kashrus - the certifying authorities. I will tell you why you don't - you care about real kashrus like I care about a faryoriker shnei.

(I am absolutely not sure why I bothered to write this - I am very sure these people will not change their opinion).

berl, crown heights said...

Having said that, I do agree that the current situation with 12 million illegal workers is untenable. W was right to want to legalize them (McCain too). The right wing republicans are WAY OFF on this one! They are bashing McCain for this and will G-d forbid get Obama instead! Then amnesty for illegals will be the least of their problem!

Shimon said...

''I am absolutely not sure why I bothered to write this - I am very sure these people will not change their opinion).''

My opinion you have not changed.On the Agri scandal I mean.About you:After reading the coarse language and curses?Lower than I expected and my expectations were low to begin with, having followed the blog long enough.
What a yeridas hadoiros:Now you can be a big 'mekushar' and speak like a fishmonger.Once Chabad 'monned' emmes, now they don't even 'mon' clean language!

The Bray of Fundie said...

Thanks Steg. I'd really appreciate it if the discussion shifted from personal invective and ad hominem attacks and adressed the larger ideological issues dividing the Charedi and MO camp.

To qoute a former first Lady (who, to the best of my knowledege, never studied sifrei Chofetz Chaim

"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
-Eleanor Roosevelt )

Most importantly do the two camps have anything positive to offer one another?

To put a finer point on it do the attitudes towards Goyim and secular studies formed in the crucible of European anti-Semitism really apply 100% to the modern day, 2008, American Jewish experience? And, in their rush to engage modernity have the MOs lost their sense of solidarity with their fellow Yidden?

berl, crown heights said...

shimon,
You're spilling blood and are offended that I said "shit"? No words...

James Dean said...

Is MO the new "center"? There used to be a place for the "heimeshe" yidden in this world, It appears to me to have been absorbed by the Chareidi movement.

"Heimeshe Yidden" were allowed not to hate all goyim, were allowed to utizilize technology and "gasp" where allowed to go to college and have a career while wearing their black hat.

There were definite distinctions between this category of person and the MO who was believed to be a bit more maikel about certain things....

What happened?

The Bray of Fundie said...

that was haimish. never confuse haimish with heimish.

today heimish means Chasidish "light" i.e more or less Orthoprax.

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

bray:

i think the issue here isn't that the MOs attacking Agriprocessors (among whom are friends of mine and leaders i highly respect) aren't doing so because they "lost their sense of solidarity with their fellow Yidden" — it hurts them that their fellow Yidden are doing wrong, and giving Orthodoxy and Jews in general (and of course the Name of God that goes along with it) a bad name, so they want to fix the problem. If it was someone else getting all the bad press, they wouldn't care quite so personally about it.

snag said...

I stand corrected re R. Herzfeld's Yeshive (thanks Steg).

However, I am not totally wrong, limayseh he is still someone who was mishameish and worked closely with R. Avi Weiss, the Bobover descended head of AMCHA and YCT, for a long time, so he is still a shtickel Chassidishe talmid.

It is a mistake to think that the Chassidic and MO world are far apart. They are not from different planets. If you dig a little, it won't be long before you find a connection.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Sorry Steg but for the Charedi ahavas Yisrael trumps all.

ever hear of
וְעַל כָּל-פְּשָׁעִים, תְּכַסֶּה אַהֲבָה. =

"but love covereth all transgressions." and אהבה מקלקלת את השורה Or, for our Momma Lushin, "Love is blind". It is this very lack of blindness, this rush to point out and be humiliated by the foibles of their Jewish bretheren that the Charedi mindset so resents about MOs. NOT their increased activism and Weltschmerz.

This is why.. it hurts them that their fellow Yidden are doing wrong, and giving Orthodoxy and Jews in general (and of course the Name of God that goes along with it) a bad name, doesn't wash and why so they want to fix the problem. is often more percieved as "they want to distance and dissasociate themselves from "those types"."

If it was someone else getting all the bad press, they wouldn't care quite so personally about it. Of course not. But is that out of selflessness or selfishness?

Question: As Rabbi Avi Weiss is kind of an Orthodox Al Sharpton why hasn't he concived of a million Yid March to protest the miscarriages of justice going on in Crown Heights? Or is he waiting until a whole minyan of CH residenst get assaulted and killed? kholila!

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Snag:

The Modern Orthodox world is generally pretty heavy on Rambamist (or semi-Rambamist) Rationalism, but there are some (particularly a few people connected to YCT) who think that it would be healthier if it got more connected to the Hhasidic approaches to philosophy and spirituality. At least certain parts of it.

Isaac Balbin said...

What are people's reaction to the allegations in
http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/
He has posted a letter from the Agudas HaRabonim
and seems to have knowledge of the kashrus scene.

I have no idea who he is, but I'd hope that he isn't simply dismissed as a "snag with an agenda".

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Bray:

You sound like you're saying that ahavat Yisrael means that no one should ever give any other Jew תוכחה. The problem with public institutions like companies is that they don't respond to private תוכחה, so you have to speak a little "louder".

I don't know why the Crown Heights situation isn't a bigger deal.

chaim said...

Isaac Balbin,
Rest assured that any criticism will be dismissed as 'snag with an agenda'

Uri said...

These are typical of comments made to the people who see something wrong in Iowa and think that the Rubashkins caused their own downfall.

Do we 'hate' the Rubashkins because they are sucessful? No - we do not like people who put themselves in front of the Olam and say I am doing this for Klal Yisroel - I am hiring illegal workers, underage workers, I have bad working conditions and dangerous conditions on my plant, I pollute the water, I have such a bad shechita that the goyim are complaining. I do all this but Hey! it's OK because I am a baal chesed and give money to tzedaka.

Whose money are you giving? When you pay $5 an hour to a worker when the minimum wage in $6.50, then you just stole %1.50 from him. multiply this times 8 hours, you get $12.00 a day. Multiply this times 100 workers you get @1200 that you stole. By the week - now you are up to $6,000. In one year - you just stole $300,000. Who do you think is jealous? This is the true bizayon - on the company for doing it and for you apologists for rationalizing it and allowing it to happen.

We (I) did not make this into a Litvak VS Lubavitch contest. You did. We did not make this into a Chabad VS Chasidus contest. You did. We did not make this into a sinas chinum contest. You did. The above 3 bloggers that I pulled down accused the rest of the world of being hateful because Rubashkin is successful, of being self rightous, of having sinas chinum AS ALWAYS IN THE LITVESHE WORLD (his words, not mine).
I do NOT see this written about the Weinstock families (ALLE PROCESSING) or the Chaimowitz Families (International Glatt). I suppose that we just are not jealous of them. Or maybe - they don't embaress Klal Yisroel like the Rubashkins do.

Get off you high horse. If I give my shiksa a few dollars under the table to clean my house - I do not put her in harms way because my house is dangerous. If I pay my babysitter a few bucks to watch my children - I am not taking advantage of her. If I give a bochur a few bucks to shovel my walk after a snow - this is more than the Rubashkins gave to his workers, but it is not illegal. Don't even think of comparing this to outright fraud and genavah.

Until you admit that you are wrong, you are just as guilty as the Rubashkins are.

Hirshel Tzig said...

typical "muckracker" garbage.

There was epes a report of him paying workers $5 an hour, and now all of a sudden that's what he paid everybody!

Ya gotta love guys in chinos and crocs writing about "unsafe" working conditions in far away Postville. They feel all "McClure" magazine in the 1900s!

way to go you guys, you found yourselves a new cause!

Anonymous said...

Goat,
Why don't you shut your silly mouth?
You make your Rebbe look silly for having a first class moron like yourself taking on his p.r.
A bissel kuved far enker rebben, 'ch beyt dech berachamim!!(
(this is on your blog bichlal, but specially about your re'butt'al above.What asinine gibberish you spew)

Hirshel Tzig said...

I didn't realize Rubashkin was my Rebbe...

Anonymous said...

Goat,
Don't 'kid' anybody that your 'defense' of Rubashkin has anything to do with your seeking of the truth.It has everything to do with Rubashkin being a Lubavitcher and your supposed job in your bored life as 'defender of anything Lubob'
You seriously need to look into getting a life!

Milhouse said...

Huh? If someone agrees to work for $5 an hour, and some bureaucrat writes a regulation that he's not allowed to work for less than $6.50, this means I'm stealing? How does that work? I agreed to pay him $5, he agreed to work for $5, I'm not willing to pay $6.50 because he's not worth that much (if he were then someone else would be offering it, and he'd go to work for them), so how exactly am I stealing?

And that's typical of Uri's foolishness. If you're so worried about the law, then it makes no difference whatsoever whether the illegal alien you hire is boning meat or cleaning your house, you're just as much a criminal, and you're taking just as much "advantage". Now I don't care about that, but apparently you do. Or is it only other people who have to obey this holy "law"?

As for the conditions at the plant, you don't think the workers know the conditions and take them into account when they shlep all the way to Iowa to work there?

Isaac, Yudel Shein is not just a snag with an agenda, he's a maniac with an agenda. He's a rat bag who slings mud at everyone hoping some will eventually stick. Then when some does he claims to be an expert. The point is to get people to hire him for his super-special hashgocha expertise, or at least to pay him lo-yechratz gelt. If you accuse everyone of kashrus fraud, then like a stopped clock you'll be right once in a while. Nothing to see there. I refuse to even look at what allegations he's making this time, or at whom they're directed, because nothing he says is of interest to me.

Steg, even if all plausible allegations against Agri were true calling for a boycott against a yid's business over such kleinikeiten is 100 times worse than any of the allegations themselves. This is not תוכחה, it's רשעות, and if the people engaged in this are your friends then you need to find a better class of friend. If they're people you respect then you need to re-evaluate, because this does you no credit.

chaim said...

Millhouse,
You are so against boycotts,right?
So why has Lubavitch boycotted for the last 30 a very well known and considerd by many to be one of the best heimishe supervisions?
Sounds like you guys talk the talk but don't walk the walk

Anonymous said...

I am a little hazy on Halacha (do we still care about such trifles or has it all become about struggle between communities?), so could somebody clarify to me: is violating dina d'malchusa assur or not? Is doing an assur in public a Chillul Hashem or not? Is not safeguarding against a situation, in which Jews, Orthodox Jews, Torah, the Rebbe will be viewed in a negative light (even by morons) not a Chillul Hashem?

Rubashkin is first of all a businessman? I thought he was first of all a Chossid of the Rebbe? When somebody jokingly asked the Rebbe once, "You buy bread in this store?" he stopped buying bread there. What would the Rebbe say in this situation, granted the truth of all what was written about misnagdim, MO, reform Jews, unions, etc., etc.

Am I being too idealistic here?

berl, crown heights said...

chaim,

Get your facts straight - there is no similarity between these two cases! Zero!

All Lubavitch (specifically Rav Z.S. Dworkin z"l) asked for in that case was that Hisachdus Rabbonim make a macho'oh against the brutal beatings of Rabbis Korf & Wechter (in the summer of 5743). Rav Dworkin got a message that the Rabbonim in question were afraid to speak up against the hoodlums in their community. To that he responded that Rabbonim who, out of fear, hesitate to speak up in such a case, might also hesitate to speak their mind in other important situations, and we should, therefore, refrain from relying on them in matters of kashrus. The moment they would have made a macho'oh, the ban would have been lifted. No one set out to destroy any business or declare anyone irreparably posul and untrustworthy as you are doing in the case with the Rubashkin family (even if for the argument's sake I will agree they did wrong - an assessment I do not share).

chaim said...

Berl
Starting from the end of your comment:You apparently believe that the Rubashkins have done no wrong.Interesting.Causing massive chilul Hashem is 'nothing wrong'? C'mon, now.Even if we would somehow come up with a 'heter' not to follow 'minor details' such as 'dina demalchusa',however,if breaking the law would cause a chilul Hashem there is no place for any misguided heterim.
Since I see you cannot even agree about the minor detail that Agri has to clean its act up, the rest of the comment is not addressed to you since we share no common ground, there has to be an ability to discuss issues with someone whose logic has not been totally blinded by his partisan loyalties.

About the boycott of the Satmar hechsher by Lubavitch:I think he got his dates wrong IIRC the boycott was started in '77 or '78 after the tahalucho incident in Willy, whatever the correct date the issues here are similar:The Rubashkins to save a couple of $ are prepared to break the law and cause massive chilul Hashem, who says that to save a couple of $ the would not be very lenient with the kashrus?This is a pattern not a one time thing.

The above was just for the arguments sake.Everybody knew at the time that the Satmar boycott had zero to do with kashrus and was all about political fighting, with this mecho'o business used as an excuse.The problem with cloaking personal animus in halachik excuses means that official Lubavitch is stuck with this silly boycott with a so called halachik basis for generations to come while in reality your average Lubavitcher and certainly your average Satmar have long buried the hatchet

anonymouse said...

Why is ok to insinuate that Satmar rabbis are unreliable based on a story from years ago, while screaming bloody murder whenever anybody challenges some of the many Lubab infractions such as the meshichists or Rubashkin??
Hypocrisy is what it's called.
(I'm not going to even go to the Crown Heights bais din with all the silly infighting of which Lubob blogs deal with where they claim that a bunch of gangsters are running amok and forcing people to keep quiet.I guess if they are Lubob 'tis ok)

Anonymous said...

Interesting to note that Satmar money is very kosher.The Lubob have lately discover this new 'revenue' source.Just like by the one-sided Lubavitch boycott the money is also one-sided Satmar to Lubavitch.I have never ever heard of any Lubavitcher giving money to a Satmar institution (actually you rarely hear of Lubavitcher giving to anyone not even their own,if you check out all the big givers to Lubavitch you''ll see that they are not dyed-in-the-wool Lubavitcher.Leviev, who is a shaven
Sephardy type, the Modern Orthodox guy who is donating millions to them, whatever his name is,the guy who runs a hedge fund in Russia and lives on the Upper East etc.Once they grow the big beard they won't give anything.And don't think for a sec that Lubavitch does not have gevirim.They do, just like by everyone else, though they plead poverty and hide)

Anonymous said...

This all Mo anti Rubashkin is ludicrous,
They are the last zionists on earth in there schools Yom Hatzmath is a strong holiday, now Yelimdinu Rabeni how on earth can they stand behind a mega enterprise as that secular country that is everyday mechalal hashem from a toradig viewpoint and ethical viewpoint (ask Lerner of Tikun ) Ou and his rabbis should be on all the rooftops condemning Israel 3 times a day.

berl, crown heights said...

anon moron,
learn how to read before you comment - no one said anything against Satmar here. I merely explained how Rav Dworkin's ban in 1983 was different then the current redifeis against Rubashkins. No body was talking about today's Satmar, jerk.

Anonymous said...

Anon
The last time I checked kosher money was a major Satmar issue not a Lubavitch issue, in chabad the subject of koach haopoel .. is a deep concept in chassidus and not diluted into a political statement