the man has been 'there'. kein gehenom vet er shoyn nisht gein... he did not share the same political and religious views with the readers of this blog. his pintele yid no one can deny him...
IMO this is stretching the definition of TS to the point of absurdity.
This category presumes a certain mental laziness, i.e. most people are not, nor does the Halakha expect them to be, students/scholars of secular religion. A TS is what he/she is becuase they never gave Torah-Yiddishkeik a second thought.
But can we really issue a free pass to a man who made a career of fighting and undermining Charedi interests? Didn't he study, at least in a cursory way, the lifstyles and values of his opponenents? Would he really have dedicated himself so whole heartedly to demonizing and marginalizing them if he hadn't made an informed, bechira-driven decision that Torah was (khas v'kholila)"all wrong"??
To illustate do you think that gay rights activists would give Jerry Falwell a posthumous pass becuase, "nebikh, no one was ever mekhanekh him in the absurdity of TMS nor in the many studies "proving" that gayness is a genetic predisposition."
I do not see any absurdity in applying this definition to Lapid. According to Rambam, one who was not taught Torah and observance of mitzvies as a child - even if they learned everything when the reached adulthood - retain the tinnok shenishba status (hilcheis mamrim, as I recall).
As to Lapid's "fighting ighting and undermining Chareidi interest"... Well, it will serve you well to remember that it is sometimes very hard to defend the position the chareidi society takes vis-a-vis the secular segment in Israel (I tried many times, it is not easy to defend, and, yes, I also know all the same arguments and I used them). It appears (note I said "appears") to the average Israeli when they watch the dirty machinations in the Knesset, that the chareidi in Israel have only one unshakable principle - "money". That can only elicit a response of anger and disgust among the secular. Yes, I know that many large families end up unfairly bearing the brunt of this anger and disgust, and I also know that the chareidi political leaders and "gedolim" don't feel the consequences of their harlot-like demeanor... So, without defending Lapid's positions, one has to put them and his upbringing in context of the above mentioned realities.
(for morons: don't bother reading my comment. Just assume that "berl attacked the chareidi Jews". It's easier this way...)
הלכות ממרים פרק ג הלכה ג אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו--הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה; ולא ימהר אדם להורגן.
; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס
Having heard of them or even seeing them practice their religion is a far stretch from studying the whys and wherefors of that religion and making a conscious decision to battle against it.
ולא ימהר אדם להורגן
Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I'm mesupik if the Rambam would have the patience of the average shliakh or Aish Kiruv proffesional even for a textbook TS, NOT a hater like Lapid.
Suffice it to say that I am utterly unconvinced by your prooftext Rambam.
Yes, my recollection was fuzzy regarding someone that actually studied later - Rambam did not explicitly say he is included here. But my main point stands without a doubt - Lapid would certainly fit the person described by Rambam as a tinnok shenishba, for Lapid was no more than merely a ראה היהודיים ודתם - he certainly did not study or know "the whys and wherefores" of Torah... and he certainly was one of those בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו
As to "no rush to kill" statement - it's a merely reference to seif alef where Rambam talks about an obligation of killing a min. And, btw, calling someone a tinnok shenishba is not an endorsement, just an acknowledgment of a sad reality.
Regarding whom Rambam would "have patience for" - suffice it to say I do not have the foggiest idea how one would go about projecting this, but you might want to read Iggers Hashmad, just to feel his burning love for Jews, even those that couldn't withstand the terrible nissoyon and converted to christianity under duress...
Actually, you misread the Rambam here. The line you quoted is about a reals tinneikeis shenishbu - the ones raised by goyim, but the critical line where Rambam describes Jewish children raised by Jewish irreligious parents is this: כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו
That means that unconditionally (Rambam gives no conditions), i.e even if they are informed now of what the Torah demands of them and are nevertheless אוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם , still they are begeder tiniekeis shenishbu according to Rambam here. (Note the usage of the word אוחזים – it denotes at the very least a stubborn stance of the one refusing to change).
So I hereby retract my earlier partial retraction - my original recollection was indeed correct.
23 comments:
He's not dead, he's only in hiding.
is boruch sheptorani the correct brocho in this case?
probaly.
Remember he went through the holocaust and falls in the category of 'Tinok shenishbah' not to be judged too quickly....
the man has been 'there'. kein gehenom vet er shoyn nisht gein...
he did not share the same political and religious views with the readers of this blog. his pintele yid no one can deny him...
Hirshel Tzig=Yone
shame...
Ve'yosef aynenu
As some Breslovers might say..."Toit?!? adderabbah, nokh besser!"
and falls in the category of 'Tinok shenishbah'
IMO this is stretching the definition of TS to the point of absurdity.
This category presumes a certain mental laziness, i.e. most people are not, nor does the Halakha expect them to be, students/scholars of secular religion. A TS is what he/she is becuase they never gave Torah-Yiddishkeik a second thought.
But can we really issue a free pass to a man who made a career of fighting and undermining Charedi interests? Didn't he study, at least in a cursory way, the lifstyles and values of his opponenents? Would he really have dedicated himself so whole heartedly to demonizing and marginalizing them if he hadn't made an informed, bechira-driven decision that Torah was (khas v'kholila)"all wrong"??
To illustate do you think that gay rights activists would give Jerry Falwell a posthumous pass becuase, "nebikh, no one was ever mekhanekh him in the absurdity of TMS nor in the many studies "proving" that gayness is a genetic predisposition."
is boruch sheptorani the correct brocho in this case?
The answer is no.
Asher Yotzar fits him much better.
the bray of fundie,
I do not see any absurdity in applying this definition to Lapid. According to Rambam, one who was not taught Torah and observance of mitzvies as a child - even if they learned everything when the reached adulthood - retain the tinnok shenishba status (hilcheis mamrim, as I recall).
As to Lapid's "fighting ighting and undermining Chareidi interest"... Well, it will serve you well to remember that it is sometimes very hard to defend the position the chareidi society takes vis-a-vis the secular segment in Israel (I tried many times, it is not easy to defend, and, yes, I also know all the same arguments and I used them). It appears (note I said "appears") to the average Israeli when they watch the dirty machinations in the Knesset, that the chareidi in Israel have only one unshakable principle - "money". That can only elicit a response of anger and disgust among the secular. Yes, I know that many large families end up unfairly bearing the brunt of this anger and disgust, and I also know that the chareidi political leaders and "gedolim" don't feel the consequences of their harlot-like demeanor... So, without defending Lapid's positions, one has to put them and his upbringing in context of the above mentioned realities.
(for morons: don't bother reading my comment. Just assume that "berl attacked the chareidi Jews". It's easier this way...)
even if they learned everything when the reached adulthood
Really? Please provide a precise mareh makom. This is fascinating.
Are you sure that this is a lashon of the Rambam or perhaps your remebering one of the meforshim?
-
Channel 2 Radio has reported that Tommy Lapid specifically requested that his son Yair say Kaddish for his memory, daily, in shul
הלכות ממרים פרק ג הלכה ג
אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו--הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה; ולא ימהר אדם להורגן.
Mega respect for Tommy Lapid for outsmarting and shutting up the Khnyokes by having an orthodox funeral.
B'npol oivecha al tismach...
; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס
Having heard of them or even seeing them practice their religion is a far stretch from studying the whys and wherefors of that religion and making a conscious decision to battle against it.
ולא ימהר אדם להורגן
Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I'm mesupik if the Rambam would have the patience of the average shliakh or Aish Kiruv proffesional even for a textbook TS, NOT a hater like Lapid.
Suffice it to say that I am utterly unconvinced by your prooftext Rambam.
Yes, my recollection was fuzzy regarding someone that actually studied later - Rambam did not explicitly say he is included here. But my main point stands without a doubt - Lapid would certainly fit the person described by Rambam as a tinnok shenishba, for Lapid was no more than merely a ראה היהודיים ודתם - he certainly did not study or know "the whys and wherefores" of Torah... and he certainly was one of those בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו
As to "no rush to kill" statement - it's a merely reference to seif alef where Rambam talks about an obligation of killing a min. And, btw, calling someone a tinnok shenishba is not an endorsement, just an acknowledgment of a sad reality.
Regarding whom Rambam would "have patience for" - suffice it to say I do not have the foggiest idea how one would go about projecting this, but you might want to read Iggers Hashmad, just to feel his burning love for Jews, even those that couldn't withstand the terrible nissoyon and converted to christianity under duress...
bray,
Actually, you misread the Rambam here. The line you quoted is about a reals tinneikeis shenishbu - the ones raised by goyim, but the critical line where Rambam describes Jewish children raised by Jewish irreligious parents is this: כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו
That means that unconditionally (Rambam gives no conditions), i.e even if they are informed now of what the Torah demands of them and are nevertheless אוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם , still they are begeder tiniekeis shenishbu according to Rambam here. (Note the usage of the word אוחזים – it denotes at the very least a stubborn stance of the one refusing to change).
So I hereby retract my earlier partial retraction - my original recollection was indeed correct.
Berl, the Igros Shmad was for converts to Islam, not christianity.
mottel, wrong, read it again.
oops, mottel, my bad - you're right
איפה יסלה עכשיו?
Berl, you are correctin your assesment of the public and political posture of the Charedi community in Israel.
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