RYDK, the LS of Ger, and the current Gerrer Rebbe, Belgium, 1948. Photo
When discussing the passing of Rav Koppelman I mentioned something to the fact that I didn't think that he had spent 5 years in a Siberian Labor Camp like some of the papers had reported. So I said that his Talmdim were probably confusing Siberia with Samarkand, since to may of them it was the same thing. One reader, who says his computer blocks all comments and thus could not see what people were saying about the theory, responded via e-mail. Here is that exchange, or what he said, rather.
Nobody was in Siberia for 5 years. (at least not to my knowledge) There were various camps where Jews were sent and some were in Siberia. (I think it was called Podaibo - a gold mine was there among others.. My father a"h was sent to Krasnoyarsk from Vilna... Look at a map,it is north of Mongolia and there was a Russian anti ballistic missile site there... Also read "From Kletzk to Siberia" by Rabbi Alter Pekier, from Artscroll. The Polish Government in exile under Sikorski in 1942 or 1943 made a deal with Stalin to show they were allies after the Nazis attacked and all Polish Nationals were freed from these camps and then they migrated to warmer places like Buchara,Samarkand, Dzhamboul, Merke etc. in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan etc and tried to survive there. All the Polish Nationals were sent away because they refused to become Russian citizens. In fact,the Russians would not let wives and children of Polish nationals join their husbands to go to Siberia if they were Lithuanian which was then part of Russia. A chosheva rosh yeshiva in Brooklyn's wife and children died at the Nazis because they were Lithuanian citizens and the husband/father was Polish. The father got sent to Krasnoyarsk and survived, and they did not.There was a big Lotto during World War II going on;, which people don't realize. Upstairs was being decided who was going to live or die and the money meant nothing. My computer blocks the comments so I can only read the base story. My mother a"h got sent from Galicia to Kazan, which is on the upper Volga River, up North. As always, if you want to print any of this I am anonymous. There is no way that he got to Samarkand without being sent first to a labor camp.The details are vague but this is based upon that he was in Vilna in 1939-40.
Try to track down what happened to other talmidim of the Grodno Yeshiva in the same time frame. By the way, Rabbi Wenger zt"l from Canada's father, Rabbi Wenger zt"l was in that camp in Krasnoyarsk (From Kletzk to Siberia). Harav Aron Kotler zt"l came to his bar mitzvah in a shul on Pennsylvania Ave and Glenmore. (a housing project stands there now) Rabbi Wenger's father was niftar in the mid 1950's. I still don't think that Harav Koppelman went from Vilna to Samarkand right away. I met someone whose father A"H was in Podaibo near Irkutsk in Siberia in WW2. He was from Poland/Galicia. He said they were stuck there until 1945. This agreement with Sikorsk and Stalin which worked in Krasnoyarsk and other places somehow did not apply to that camp. So those there were not released in 1942-1943. I did not know this before.
The story of the destruction of Grodno
9 comments:
Comment I found here:
http://www.ivelt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14217&start=75
דער ראש ישיבה איז געווען פארשיקט אין סיביר נאכדעם וואס ער האט געלערנט מיט קינדער אין סאמארקאנד. ר' יצחק הכהן חר"ך (חתן ר' יוסף פלאהר ז"ל) ישלח דברו וירפאהו וואס האט געלערנט ביים ראש ישיבה דארט דערציילט אז דארט וואו זיי זענען געווען אין סאמארקאנד זענען געווען 3 מלמדים דער ראש ישיבה ז"ל און זיין טאטע ר' אהרן הכהן חר"ך וואס איז אויך געווען דער רב דארט און נאך איינער א חבד'סקער און ער האט דעמאלט'ס געלערנט ביים ראש ישיבה און ער האט אליינ'ס געזעהן איינמאל ווען די 3 מלמדים זענען געשטאנען אין גאס און האבן געשמועסט איז אנגעקמוען די אויטא פון די ק.ג.ב. און אראיינגעכאפט נאר דעם ראש ישיבה, און פון דעמאלט'ס האט מען איהם נישט געזעהן (קען זיין די מעשה איז נישט מדויק ווייל כ'האב עס נאר געהערט פון איינער וואס האט געהערט ווי ר' יצחק דערציילט עס פאר א דריט'ן אמאל ביי א שמחה און ס'קען זיין אז דער צווייטער האט נישט פונקטליך אויפגעכאפט אדער נאכדערציילט אבער עפעס אזא זאך איז געווען, דאכט זיך אין סאמארקאנד).
דער ראש ישיבה האט אמאל דערציילט פאר איינע פון די מגידי שיעור אין ישיבה אז פאר מ'האט איהם פארשיקט קיין סיביר האט מען איינגערעדט זיין מאמע (זעהט אויס זי איז אויך געווען אין סאמארקאנד) אז מ'שיקט אים צו גאר א הייסן פלאץ האט זי איהם אנגעגרייט גאר דינע און זומערדיגע קליידער, און מיט דעם איז ער דארכגעגאנגען די סיבירע קעלט.
Vichtig Tze'viss'en az
In Sovyetishe Aziya hut menn nish kein Honig Nisht Ge'Lekt.
I once heard poignantly from RYY Halberstam of 17th Ave.
"Menn hut gemeint az m'vet tzirik'kimm'en kein Polin in huben Ma'ases tzi Far'Tzeiel'n. A'Der'Vahl iz nisht ge'blib'en keinem tzi Far'tzeilen".
His own father, R Chaim Shia, refused Soviet citizenship, and was imprisoned, which greatly hastened his death. I believe that RYY was less than BM at the time.
I hope tzig and all the readers know that the email you posted is pure hogwash, every single detail of it. Nobody was in Siberia for more than 5 years? they were all sent to central Asia? what in the world is he talking about.
Then he writes that everyone in Samarkand had first gone through the gulags, the ridiculousness of that statement speaks for itself, I don't have to write anything.
12:13pm
we're talking those that were sent there during ww2, not Russian Jews who were sent there for anti-Revolutionary activities. Those Jews were there for much longer. I thought that was pretty clear.
From BEIS MOSHIACH -12 MarCheshvan 5767 #575 (English section, translation from Hebrew #573):
Sixty years have passed since the famous
exodus fromRussia and yet much is still
unknown. The following is an account of the
escape as heard from R’ Chaikel Chanin. *
Part 2
ARREST IN THE BUCHARIAN MARKET
My father [Chaikel Chanin] began researching how to get out of Russia. He tried to find a way to take his wealth out too. He began inquiring about different ways of traveling and who the smugglers were. In the meantime, something happened in Samarkand that put R’ Nissan into immediate danger, disturbed the serenity of the Chassidim even more, and strengthened the view of those who leaned towards immediate flight.
Rabbi Yitzchok Koppelman (later, the Litvishe rosh
yeshiva in Lucerne, Switzerland) arrived in Samarkand as a refugee. Like other G-d-fearing Jews, he remained there and became very friendly with the Lubavitcher Chassidim.
One day in 1946 as R’ Yitzchok walked in the
Bucharian marketplace, a car pulled up and four
plainclothes men got out and asked him to accompany them. Despite his resistance and it being a public place, they forcibly put him in the car and he was taken to the NKVD offices. They interrogated him for hours and ultimately released him on condition that he leave Samarkand immediately.
R’ Yitzchok didn’t want to endanger himself so he
immediately packed his bags and left for the train
station. Before he left he managed to meet with a Lubavitcher and he asked him to tell R’ Nissan to flee
immediately because at the NKVD offices he learned that they were after R’ Nissan and were about to
arrest him.
That very night R’ Nissan left the city for Tashkent. Aside from a few individuals nobody knew where he
had gone and where his hiding place was. My mother took it upon herself to visit him and bring him food each day as well as to report to him about what was going on and to ask his advice on behalf of Anash.
The conclusion of the incident was clear. If R’
Yitzchok, who wasn’t a Lubavitcher and wasn’t a
communal figure but a religious Jew who sat all day and learned, was treated that way by the NKVD, it was far more dangerous for the Chassidim to live in Soviet territory where Torah institutions, Jews and Judaism could not thrive. They had to leave as soon
as possible. ...
Ad Kan.
http://www.beismoshiach.org/_pdf/575.pdf
-- ZIY
rom BEIS MOSHIACH -12 MarCheshvan 5767 #575 (English section, translation from Hebrew #573):
Sixty years have passed since the famous
exodus fromRussia and yet much is still
unknown. The following is an account of the
escape as heard from R’ Chaikel Chanin. *
Part 2
ARREST IN THE BUCHARIAN MARKET
My father [Chaikel Chanin] began researching how to get out of Russia. He tried to find a way to take his wealth out too. He began inquiring about different ways of traveling and who the smugglers were. In the meantime, something happened in Samarkand that put R’ Nissan into immediate danger, disturbed the serenity of the Chassidim even more, and strengthened the view of those who leaned towards immediate flight.
Rabbi Yitzchok Koppelman (later, the Litvishe rosh
yeshiva in Lucerne, Switzerland) arrived in Samarkand as a refugee. Like other G-d-fearing Jews, he remained there and became very friendly with the Lubavitcher Chassidim.
One day in 1946 as R’ Yitzchok walked in the
Bucharian marketplace, a car pulled up and four
plainclothes men got out and asked him to accompany them. Despite his resistance and it being a public place, they forcibly put him in the car and he was taken to the NKVD offices. They interrogated him for hours and ultimately released him on condition that he leave Samarkand immediately.
R’ Yitzchok didn’t want to endanger himself so he
immediately packed his bags and left for the train
station. Before he left he managed to meet with a Lubavitcher and he asked him to tell R’ Nissan to flee
immediately because at the NKVD offices he learned that they were after R’ Nissan and were about to
arrest him.
That very night R’ Nissan left the city for Tashkent. Aside from a few individuals nobody knew where he
had gone and where his hiding place was. My mother took it upon herself to visit him and bring him food each day as well as to report to him about what was going on and to ask his advice on behalf of Anash.
The conclusion of the incident was clear. If R’
Yitzchok, who wasn’t a Lubavitcher and wasn’t a
communal figure but a religious Jew who sat all day and learned, was treated that way by the NKVD, it was far more dangerous for the Chassidim to live in Soviet territory where Torah institutions, Jews and Judaism could not thrive. They had to leave as soon
as possible. ...
Ad Kan.
-- ZIY
My mother was in Siberia for more than five years. She was originally from Kletzk, and in 1939, when the Germans y'zv and the Russians yz'v invaded on September 1, Kletzk was officially on the German side, though close to the Russian border. Because my grandfather a'h was considered "wealthy" (he owned a store with a goat, cow, chickens, selling their produce, as well as fabrics), the Russians came in the middle of the night and stole all of his goods; they took my grandfather and threw him into a slave labor camp and took my mother and her siblings along with my grandmother, and threw them into Siberia. No camps, just cattle cars that took them to a wasteland where they had to shackle up with locals and either survive or not. My mother, who was 14 at the time and the oldest of the family had the siyata dishmaya to be born with red hair and blue eyes and small nose: i.e. she did not look obviously Jewish. Therefore she took it upon herself to support the family. She went into the woods and chopped down trees in the Siberian forests, by joining a group of three men, as it took four "men" to man one saw and successfully cut down the tree. This was how they survived.
Tzig it is General Sikorsky , not Sikorsk. He was president of Poland in Exile at least that part of the govt not in alliance with the USSR. Sikorsky died in a plane crash over Spain during the War in mysterious circumstances. It is likely that Father Stalin wanted him dead as he was a popular figure who could perhaps unite the poles after the war and Joe haddifferent ideas for Poland.
U am surprised as to all the hype and absolute truths that were נישט געשטויגן און נישט געפלויגן
R' zalman chanin writes what he nheard from his father and that is true.
I will write my part of story.
I knew Rw Hoppelman when he lived un new york, U had ocassion to vusut him with my mother A"H in switzerland.
R' K' was freed from Suburia in about 1942 he heard that there was a big kibbutz if Jews livung like Jews un Kazakastan and Uzbekestan.
he chose Samarakand and when arrivwed local russians were afraid if him, they did not know him and suspected him Etc.
My grandmother who was polish and was a Macherke there was the first to open her home to him ( I remember my mother A"H talking to him on first name as he to her)
In the us he became a R"Y
His mother in law Mrs Yaroslowitch came every day to visit my grandmother who lived with us.
I understand that as he got older his life was very unhappy with Shalom Bayis problems??!!
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