Sunday, June 19, 2011

When Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l, tried to save Crown Heights - at the behest of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, זצוקללה"ה נבג"מ זי"ע



On June 3, 1969 - Corresponding to 17 Sivan 5729, there was a gathering in Crown Heights, in the Chovevei Torah Shul on Eastern Parkway, which thankfully still operates as a shul and Yeshivah until today. By that time many, if not most of the frum population had fled Crown Heights, but there was still something that could be done to keep the last (non-Lubavitch) remnants from fleeing as well. I guess as a group Bobov comes to mind, although I don't think they were interested. Bobov did not attend, I should say the Bobover Roov didn't attend, maybe some Bobovers attended - despite the fact that the Gaon HaDor attended. The gathering that was recorded and is brought to you here featured speeches - pleas, rather, from the Gaon haRav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l, Harav Simcha Elberg, Rabbi Dovid Hollander, and, yblch"t, Rav Yosef Weinberg. (why I named each one differently I do not know. R' Hollander also deserved a "HaRav" before his name.) You might say that both Reb Moshe and R' Hollander practiced what he preached by staying in their respective LES and BB neighborhoods, just as the Rebbe stayed in CH. And judging from his speech here it would seem that he believed in the concept of Jews not running away from their neighborhoods.

{I realize the sound is distant, but there's a remedy for that as well. You can go the file location and download it to your computer. One you have it saved you need to open it with a media player that allows you to play with the audio settings; The VLC media player is recommended. Once you play the audio file put all knobs - which should be set to mid-level by default - down to the bottom, except for the middle one. B'kitzer, you need to fiddle with it a bit and then you should be able to hear it pretty clearly.}

105 comments:

Anonymous said...

I thought it was an ir hanidachas.

BelzFinAMool said...

I was present at speech, and I must tell you that as a non-Lubavitch non-Litvish kid in CH, RMF seemed like a very distant figure at the time.
BTW, in '69 Bobov was long gone.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what do you mean by "distant?"

who did you consider close?

Anonymous said...

I remember being there as an (almost) 13 year boy and the sifrei torah where laying on the bimah when Reb Moshe spoke.

Anonymous said...

there is a letter from Reb Moshe on that matter, printed in Hapardes

Volvie said...

Belzelfinamool
You are dating yourself.If true.
For some reason you come across as a bored chaider yingel.Which one is it?

dovy in jersey said...

I never heard of Rav Yosef Weinberg before. can someone tell us who he was please?

SHEA said...

People left CH because once the tide had tipped towards Lubavitch being the dominant kehilla there every non Lubavitcher needed out.
There is no kehilla in the world, to my knowledge at least that Lubavitch is "dominant".
I"ll clarify what I mean: Once Lubavitch becomes "dominant" it goes 100% Lubavitch. Regular frum Jews are unable to live with such an overbearing and power hungry mindset.
Small test: Go and check how many non Lubavitch shuls exist in CH? Kind of none, unless you include the Lubavitch controlled Sephardy one.

How many non Litvish shuls exist in Lakewood....

EDITED FOR SHEER STUPIDITY

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Rav Yosef Weinberg is a Talmid of the Lubavitcher Yeshivos in Poland. He was a fundraiser for the Lubavitcher Yeshivah in New York.

May he live and be well.

Der Shygetz said...

EDITED FOR SHEER STUPIDITY

Come on! We need the entertainment value. Don't edit the yukelschaft.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

too much fun isn't good either... trust me on this one.

Anonymous said...

Someone needs to transcribe the speeches and post them

Anonymous said...

Is it permissible for me to ask if the Rebbe came out to be mekabel ponim the posek hador Reb Moshe?If not,was there a reason given?I hope the Czenzur will allow this question to be published.

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Regular frum Jews are unable to live with such an overbearing and power hungry mindset."
How many Chasidic Shhtibels are in in Kiryath Sefer?
your hate turns you brain in to Jello,
People were leaving CH because of the Bnie Chom, a lot of Lubavichers wanted to leave too. The Rebbe fought against the tide, until he secured it for decades to come.

russian chusid said...

Hirshel,

In der alter heim Censors use to be usually mishimodim :)

Anonymous said...

Russian Chusid
in our days the Hamodia,Yated,Ami,Mishpacha and Lehavdil the New York Times,WSJ,NPR and even liberal Village Voice is censored.
The circus can not be a cesspool for every hater.

Anon3 said...

"People left CH because once the tide had tipped towards Lubavitch being the dominant kehilla there every non Lubavitcher needed out."
Pure unadulterated BS and the product of a bigoted and over productive imagination.
People began leaving CH after the well known, at the time ,assault and murder of a young woman on Montgomery St. (whose name I fail to remember)and the formation of the Maccabees vigilante organization after which the blockbusters had a field day.As a result the the exodus of OJ from CH began.This in turn led to the passage of anti-blockbuster laws that exist in NYS today.

Shea said...

To all the Lubavitchers who are up in arms about what I said earlier, take a chill pill....

Why not challenge me on facts:State one place where there is a dominant Lubavitcher community, where other, heimishe Jews, co exist.....
Let's see....Kfar Chabad? Uh oh, it's Heimish free.Nada, not one non Lubavitch controlled shul.
Crown Heights.Same story.Montreal in the Chabad area? Kind of the same.
Vechulu.....
Crown Height in the 60's went down hill,HOWEVER,once it was clear that only Chabad would rule, the rest of the oylem packed out in a hurry.
I guess other opinions=Sheer stupidity.
Oh, while I"m at it, what "newsite" chose to completely ignore the passing of Zkan Roshei hayeshivos???
THE "official" unofficial CHABAD news site COL.
The English site tarried with the news for two days until they "found" a Chabad "connection" ,Rav Koppelman at his eynikels wedding while a Chabad nigun was played in the backround, making him "kosher" enough to be zoicheh to a mention.

Kinda funny that you Lubavitchers are always crying how you are "hated" by everyone, then are up in arms when you are told that regular frum people do not want to live with "know-it-alls" and arrogant and pushy fools targeting other communities youth for brainwashing.
We don't hate you, we just think that you are ignorant, have very low standars of yiddishkait and have many crazy ala Meshichist elements.We'd rather not live around to many of you.
In fact you get a lot of funding from all those "haters"

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Although I wasn’t yet born in 1969, I did live in CH afterwards, in 1970. I wasn’t the only one. 1969 was still early in the exodus. As a child in the early 1980’s, I used to go to CH all the time. By then Lubavitch was 95% OF CH if not more. But there were literally dozens of none Chabad schuls hanging in. Among them; Viznets, Sufnits, Empire Shtebeel (still there but Chabad run) Agudah, Kollel Minyan etc. I seem to recall a Skver minyan which existed via guys driving in from BP to make a Minyan (or was that Belez?)

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Crown Height in the 60's went down hill,HOWEVER,once it was clear that only Chabad would rule, the rest of the oylem packed out in a hurry."
if chabad can exsist with other Jews is a issue for a other time, but you realy think the Bobover, Spinker,Skulener,Sadigurer, left CH, not because the scare of the crime, is sheer stupidity,
The white flight that was happening in all the 5 boroughs, is all the Lubavich fault?
Did Canarsie become Judenrien because of Lubavich?

BTW, who is in Willi today outside of Satmar? It is only Satmar or some Shuls that willingly took upon themselves their Yoke?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Oh, while I"m at it, what "newsite" chose to completely ignore the passing of Zkan Roshei hayeshivos???"
since you are at it,
What is so special about that old man?
Did you see from him a original (or non original)Peasak or Chidush?
Did the Yated Report the funeral of Rav Mentlik?

Anonymous said...

Shea
How many shuls does lubavich have in Yeruhaliem?
BTW< what means Hiemish?
That they dont buy Riesmans Kokosh cake and they buy only Shlomies Rugalech with Pearlmutters overnight Kugel?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"In fact you get a lot of funding from all those "haters"
what does that mean?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"We don't hate you, we just think that you are ignorant, have very low standars of yiddishkait"
who is the "WE" ? does that include me too? how about my Father? my 6 brothers?
they all eat overnight kugel? can you get them in your "WE" group?

Anonymous said...

Shea
I heard lately from a friend that eventualy even the african americand were leaving the hoouses on Kingston Avenue.They"do not want to live with "know-it-alls" and arrogant and pushy fools targeting other communities youth for brainwashing."

Anonymous said...

Shea
"HOWEVER,once it was clear that only Chabad would rule, the rest of the oylem packed out in a hurry."
there were hundreds of Jews not affiliated with no Kehila that had no politics on their mind, they saw the rise in crime, so they ran for their life.

BelzFinAMool said...

All I tried to say, that to me and my friends at the time, RMF wasn't exactly a Shem Dover in CH at that time, especially for non-Litvishe kids.
It was only a personal observation, possibly of my own parochialism, and I didn't expect to get Ba"Falen about it, but if I did, it should be a Kaporeh on all of Belzer Avoinois, ki Rabbim Haynuh. LOL, as the kids of today say.
BTW,I'm not dating myself,because, as of today, that is still against the law in NY state, though it might change very soon.
Also, if one can be a bored cheider yingel in their sixth decade, then I'm a bored cheider yingel , oif alle Yiddishe kinder azoi ge'zugt. Ein mool a chaider Yingel, eibig a chaider Yingel.
Actually I consider myself a 50-something-year-old youth at risk.
Peace Out

russian chusid said...

anon at 9.40
1/2 OF WILLY IS NOT SATMAR!!!!
(Do you leave on the moon?)

In Monroe there are 50 or 100 shtibelach all over.
Satmar fights only if you start up with them-otherwise they do not care (at least today's day and age).
They are not out to proselite anybody and they do not try to proove anything to anybody.

One of the reasons CHABAD is not liked and was not liked that Bal Hatanya was the ONLY one who understood the Maggid, they are the only ones who has chasidus out strait, etc.
It is almost 200 years-and they can't grow up!!!
Obviosly, like any other place, there are a lotof normal people there, but zei zenen shtil.

Anonymous said...

Anyone that was at the event please give more historical details. How may people were there? Who arranged it? Did it have an effect?

Anonymous said...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&rl=yes&v=rkB-myhls20


I was mechunach not to believe in him.
I still don't.
Vos zol ich obber zogn der yid
nemt shtark ois. Klorre Diburim mit an emesn Cheyn.
You see the pikchus and looks like a game changer.

Der Shygetz said...

Montreal in the Chabad area? Kind of the same.
--
One large MO shul that went under because the rav, who was known for selling gerus, was niftar. New rav may be Chabad but the shul, if it is viable, is still MO.

The largest Sefardi shul in Montreal is in the area.

One or two smaller Sefardi shuls on Van Horne; the one I know has a Chabad shaliach as its rav but it has no connection to Chabad and davens edot hamizrah.

One old veltish shul that may or may not have a Lubavitch rav keeping it alive anymore.

Shea said...

"What is so special about that old man?
Did you see from him a original (or non original)Peasak or Chidush?"
---------------
Afro lepumech!!!

Anon 9:43,

Is that what you were re-educated to say when you joined Lubavitch?Especially about a yid with mesires nefesh for five years in Russia during the War, a rebbbe who taught thousands of talmidim?A person who was universally respected by thousands of his talmidim,many of whom are serious talmidei chachomim from all kreizen?
A man for whom Harav Vozner shlit"a who nevers wastes a minute, took off hours of his day to travel to Yerusholayim and to be maspid.A man who was zocheh to live a hundred and 6 years betahara with all his faculties?
For shame!
Thats why we don't want anything to do with people like you

dlz said...

Anonymous:
You asked, "How many Chasidic Shhtibels are in in Kiryath Sefer?"
I live in Kirhat Sefer, and there actually are a few Chassidishe Shtibels (at least three in K.S. itself, and of course much more in Brachfeld).

azi said...

in which order are they speakers, which one is r moshe?

BelzFinAMool said...

to shed some retrospection on this:

It is a sign of RMF gadlus that he consented to this unrealistic task.
It was a futile effort, no tide was turned. He might as well have asked people to move back to E New York/Brownsville. The train already left the station.
Who put him up to this? No doubt Lubavitch. Did the Rebbe also appear, or give him any Kovod, personally? Not as far as anyone can see.
This intra-city and suburban diaspora has been a feature of Ortho life as part of overall urban migration/immigrant displacement. It isnt anyone's fault, in the same sense that economic cycles arent anyone's fault.
BTW, I was thinking of all Rebbes who ever lived in CH, and I came up with Skulen (seemed exotic, he came to NYC way after the war) Lubavitch, Bobov (headquarterd north of Eastern Pkwy, Novominsk (seemed like a small Rebbe w a small Shtibel), I'm probably missing many others. Who else? Was there some kind of Kerestirer Rebbe in Kerestirer Shtibel?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"What is so special about that old man?
Did you see from him a original (or non original)Peasak or Chidush?"
---------------
Afro lepumech!!!"
can you stop with your cursing and give a nice obituary on Rav Kopelman.
If you can not write anything positive on him. Then you are thinking the same as me.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"a rebbbe who taught thousands of talmidim?"
can you send me to 1 chidush? Does shlezinger quote chidushim from his Rebbe?
Is there a sefer printed from him?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"A man for whom Harav Vozner shlit"a who nevers wastes a minute, took off hours of his day to travel to Yerusholayim and to be maspid"
I saw him coming to a Belzer Bris too... hock Nisht a Chienik

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Thats why we don't want anything to do with people like you"
Who is the "WE"????
for which organization or Kehila are you the spokesman?
BTW,
Why did all the non lubavichers leave CH?
Why did all the JEWS leave the Lower east side, Cnarsie,Bronx????

Anonymous said...

Belz
"Who put him up to this? No doubt Lubavitch. Did the Rebbe also appear, or give him any Kovod, personally? Not as far as anyone can see."
The Rebbe did not want it should be a chabad or chasidic issue. He wanted that by Reb Moshe being there it should have the stamp of strict Halacha.

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Especially about a yid with mesires nefesh for five years in Russia during the War,"
that is news for me, thanks for informing me.
Which years was he in the war? was he in Siberia with other Galicianer Jews?
Did he have a yeshiva there?
What was the Mesiras nefesh for?
can you give more details?
When did he start his yeshiva in Swiss?

Anonymous said...

DLZ

Welcome to the Site,
What are names of there Shtiblech?
is it Klal Chasidi?
Does Kiryath Sefer have a vadath ichlus as Bieter?

snagville said...

Wow. I love how this whole discussion turned into why the others left as if they did something wrong. I think the question should be the other way. Why did Lubavitch stay? I was once driving through CH with a Godol in my car about 15 years ago late at night and he was incredulous about the amount of kids walking around "as if its Yerushalyim". He said since the Rebbe never took them out of CH they will never be able to leave (and he didn't think that was a good thing for them).

Anonymous said...

R Yd Shlesinger quets hi rebbe rav Koppelman almost in evrey shiur he gives

Shea said...

Anon:11:26
Don't accuse me of thinking like you.
In fact I listened to Rav Shlezingers hesped and he quoted many things.

Just for the record:There were many times the amount of people at the levaya than on gimmel tammuz.

You are a small and disgusting zera amulek

Shea said...

Kiryath Sefer has quite a few Nusach Sfard,Sefardi and Chadidishe Shtiebels.
Brachfeld has many.
Kfar Chabad and Crown Heights have nada.
Why???

Shea said...

"I saw him coming to a Belzer Bris too... hock Nisht a Chienik"

Rav Vozner wastes time.
Is that what you are implying.??
You know nothing.
Amulek

schneur said...

Interesting.
With all due respect to Reb Moshe as posek, as human, as lamdan, he was not a manhig Israel in the same manner the lubavitcher rebbe was.Nor did he pretend to be , he was basically a meshiv and a rosh yeshiva.
Rabbi Kaminetsky reports that this was due to his not attending Slobodka where the Alter trained manhigim like his own father Reb Yankev and others(Rav Shach for example)
Today's Lower East Side has very few Jews and not much of a Orthodox Infrastructure. Besides the Bialistoker Shul led by a talented RIETS trained rav, and the Young Israel all the other shuls are basically small minyonim.
The LES no longer has a seforim store and there are only a few kosher stores left.
The final blow was the removal of caps on the Coops ,(orchestrated by a few Charedi machers there) by that enabled the younger Jews to sell their places(to Yuppies and Chinese) for Kessef maleh and move to NJ or elsewhere where there are chavrusas, schools, shuls and I can not resist saying it - an Eruv.When Speaker Silver retires I suspect the LES will finally lose its Orthodox flavor for obvious reasons.
So Rav Moshe and his son have had- to be kind -very limited success in keeping their own shchuna Jewish.There si little there to attract any orthodox young peopel from any camp.
As far as Rabbi David Hollander goes , he was a multi dimensional man, rabbi, preacher writer, Soviet Jewry actviist, kanoi agisnt other streams in Judaism. But his rabbonus was in BB much later in life. His primary rabbonus until the early 1970's was in the Grand Concourse (Mt. Eden Jewish center where he hosted Rav J.L. levin from Moscow)in the Bronx and as we Litvishe Yiddn say "men hot em gehert in Trok' as far as jews emaining there in the Bronx. I don't evenr recall the good rabbi who was a friend of mine(I spoke to him on the phone weekly) even trying to stem the tide as he himself knew he lacked the spiritual and leadership clout to do anything. So his huge shul Mt. Eden Jewish Center closed and he moved to BB to become a rabbi of a shul on its way out revived a tad by a f few old Russian Jews.
In this area the only success was the lubavitcher Rebbe as he had the clout to make his followers s aty in CH. Other giants like Rav Breuer, rav Moshe etc etc tried but did not have the clout despite their being Torah giants to force peopel to stay in the Old Neighborhood".
Its certainly a shame to see old shuchnos go down , but lets be honest there are now new jewish areas with shuls, schools etc that gew on the back of these old neighborhoods places like Teaneck, Englewood, Passaic, the 5 Towns Monsey etc are all the results of this population shifts.Vayisu vayachanu...

Binyamin said...

Not leaving CH for Chabad was their biggest mistake.
They became much more marginalized than ever before.
Changing neighborhoods are a fact of life everywhere.
CH is still a high crime ghetto full of infighting.

Binyamin said...

Scneour,
I believe the Lower East Sides Orthodox population is stable.Tiferes Yerusholayim is probably the same size it was during R'Moshes tenure, together with a small kolel.
Actually the LES is a great place for young frum couples to live in, with the infracstructure one needs, yeshiva, bais yaakov and shuls.
The big difference between CH in the 60's and LES is that Chabad claimed that since the neighborhood is becoming very high crime, leaving would expose the elderly and the few who can't leave to pikuach nefesh from crime.The LES has much lower crime than ever.It's gentrifying,become more expensive and a very nice place to live in, even if there was no Orthodox community.The LES never had a mass exodus of the Orthodox anyway, it was never as big as CH in CH's good days.I"m talking post WW 50's here.

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Kiryath Sefer has quite a few Nusach Sfard,Sefardi and Chadidishe Shtiebels.
Brachfeld has many.
Kfar Chabad and Crown Heights have nada.
Why???"
Again'
I don't know why Hirshel has a Idiot like you on his blog?
are you still thinking that all Jewish migration from certain neighborhoods happened because of Lubavich?
can you answer?

I will answer you as your Kidergarten Moreh...
Kfar Chabad is a Kfar built for russian chabad chasidim why should a non chabadnik live there?
Crown Hieghts had all kind of Jews that were chased away by the crime in that area, they did not want to suffer, but chasidim did want to suffer thats why they are still there.
Now, I will give you a lolipop and take your afternoon nap on the cot..

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

all Chassidishe shuls etc are in Brachfeld. I think Karlin may be the only non-Litai institution in KS.

Lakewood has shtieblach על אפם ועל חמתם of BMG, in the beginning anyway. Now they decided that its better for business.

Shea is a liar.

בנציון said...

People

there's no need to lose perspective here

If Rav Kopelman would not have lived till 106 we would hear very little about him. As it is we only heard about him lately, the last 2-3 years, thanks to the Charedi websites who are bored and need to fill pages. Yes, he was a talmid of Reb Shimon Shkop, but so was my zeide, and he could learn alot better. His "crime" was that he died 30+ years ago...

all I know is that spoiled bochurim from BP who needed a Swiss boarding school went there. They starved to death there, so their mommies packed them cases of tuna fish and salami.

יהי זכרו ברןך

Anonymous said...

Binyamin
"Not leaving CH for Chabad was their biggest mistake."
If you are different then other people you are marginalized anyway,
Ger in BP have their 600 families, and nobody feels in BP they exist, even when the Rebbe is in town, it is BAU,they are not part of the BP chulent culture, and they don't mingle.
Even the Belzer in Yerushalien is Marginalized from the outside world.When you are in Jerusalem you don't feel Belz exist.

Shea said...

"Shea is a liar"

Where?
Jus' the facts ma'am.

Back up you case for this:
"Lakewood has shtieblach על אפם ועל חמתם of BMG, in the beginning anyway."

Wonder who the liar is.

You've never been to BMG or Kiryaat Sefer.
You would not know what they look life if they fell into your lap.

Shea said...

"As it is we only heard about him lately, the last 2-3 years, thanks to the Charedi websites who are bored and need to fill pages"


Liar!!!!
YOU never heard of him because YOU are ignorant.His thousands of TOP talmidim going back to 1946 on did.
He, btw, save R'Shimons writings.

You are probably a Lubavitcher who have never heard of anyone.

Shea said...

"As it is we only heard about him lately, the last 2-3 years, thanks to the Charedi websites who are bored and need to fill pages"


Liar!!!!
YOU never heard of him because YOU are ignorant.His thousands of TOP talmidim going back to 1946 on did.
He, btw, save R'Shimons writings.

You are probably a Lubavitcher who have never heard of anyone.

בנציון said...

who are the "thousands of TOP talmidim?"

Shea said...

You need names??
Check out many of the European rabbonim, especially chasidim.

He founded Sharei Yosher in New York, a yeshiva I"m sure you never heard of.I"M sure you never heard of Rav 'Rosenblum rosh yeshiva of shaarei yosher for many years an early talmid

בנציון said...

we know where he was, and all that...

I still need names.

oh. by the way, why did the Olam HaYeshivos not accept him? why were almost all of his talmidim Chassidim?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
"Lakewood has shtieblach על אפם ועל חמתם of BMG, in the beginning anyway."
thanks for bringing up Lakewood
I remember when the Roshie Yeshivahs tried to stop Rav Chici Borek to built the Gerer shtibel. It was reported in the Algemiener Journal, and Benny Fishoff called Malkiel, and they backed off.
Obviously nobody knows about it, since the world keeps records (90% false)on Chabad only.

Shea said...

Interesting to note....

Lets just say for arguments sake that BMG was against shtiebelach, why where thousands of chasidishe talmidim so insistent on learning in BMG ל אפם ועל חמתם AND not in Kahn Tzivo????????

JUS ANSWER....
--------------------------

The real answer is that talmidei chachomim don't come out of the modern day "chayolei beis dovid" institutions.They come out of Ponovizh,Mir,Brisk,BMG as a small example.
Ask R'Ezrah Schochat
Ever see a Lubavitcher that is a talmid chochom.I mean a REAL one.Checkout where he learned.Chances are it was not Lubavitch.Ask R'Forkosh for example.

Anonymous said...

Shea
"YOU never heard of him because YOU are ignorant.His thousands of TOP talmidim going back to 1946 on did.
He, btw, save R'Shimons writings."

can you stop hurling insults and give some pointers of unique gadlus for Rav Kopelman?
How old his Rav rosenbloom of Sharie Yosher?

Shea said...

"oh. by the way, why did the Olam HaYeshivos not accept him? why were almost all of his talmidim Chassidim"

NOT accept him??
What are you smokin'??
His yeshiva was IN Europe,was Yiddish speaking, and he was very comfortable with Chasidim and they loved him to.
There were many non chasidim too

Shea said...

"oh. by the way, why did the Olam HaYeshivos not accept him? why were almost all of his talmidim Chassidim"

NOT accept him??
What are you smokin'??
His yeshiva was IN Europe,was Yiddish speaking, and he was very comfortable with Chasidim and they loved him to.
There were many non chasidim too

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Lets just say for arguments sake that BMG was against shtiebelach, why where thousands of chasidishe talmidim so insistent on learning in BMG ל אפם ועל חמתם AND not in Kahn Tzivo????????"
because in Lubavich they learn every day a few hours chasidus and learning chasidus is not the norm in Klal Yisroel.But a liberal Yeshivah with no particular curriculum is open to everyone. Saying Kan Tzivoh was not needed for your question, it is just your foolish hype.

Shea said...

"I remember when the Roshie Yeshivahs tried to stop Rav Chici Borek to built the Gerer shtibel."


Uhuh.
I remember when R'Malkiel was there in the Gerer shtiebel!

btw, where is the Gerer,Viznitzer,skvere,nadverneh,skuler,satmareh etc tec shtiebelach in CH?????
aNSWER IS NOBODY WANTS TO LIVE THERE!!
For some reason.............Chasidim, who would naturally be attracted,kavyuchol, to Chabad want to live in a "terrible" place like Lakewood??
Go figure.
I"ll send to the anon villamsburger and his six brothers to "explain" to them how wrong they are.
LOL

Anonymous said...

Shea
"Ever see a Lubavitcher that is a talmid chochom.I mean a REAL one.Checkout where he learned.Chances are it was not Lubavitch.Ask R'Forkosh for example."
did you ever see the seforim of the Kalmanson brothers??
If Rav Shochet and Rav Forkosh are that big, why did they join the Amaratzim of CH?Why are they not siting in Lakewood by the shiurim of the Godal Hador Harav Malkiel of BMG?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"btw, where is the Gerer,Viznitzer,skvere,nadverneh,skuler,satmareh etc tec shtiebelach in CH?????
aNSWER IS NOBODY WANTS TO LIVE THERE!!"
did you see the answers in the above posts? or you will harp the same question forever?

Anonymous said...

Shea
"I remember when R'Malkiel was there in the Gerer shtiebel!"
you are correct they made a smart decision not to oppose and fight no chasidic expansion.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
I don't know if you realize that a guy like Shea just pulls down the level of your blog.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I do see that now

Shea said...

"I do see that now"

Is that your way of answering a challenge?
In Russia anyone questioning went to the nut house.
Just answer the question.
While you are at it, tell us why COL would not even mention the passing of Zkan Rosh Hayeshivos.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"Rabbi Kaminetsky reports that this was due to his not attending Slobodka where the Alter trained manhigim like his own father Reb Yankev and others"
I am not familiar with the status of Hanhoge of the 50's 60's 70's in the Us, But as far as I herad that Reb Aron Kotler and Reb Moshe were the powerhouse on every subject in USA charidie matters. He had no goons or media houses to enforce his hanhoge, he was immensely respected by the masses outside of Satmar and its affiliate. Reb Yankev was the Kluger Yid, but no manhig. I guess that by certain people if you did not ostracize a other group you are a spineless fickle minded Jew.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

challenge? is that what you call it?

COL is a site run by a private guy who knows very little of the outside world. So please.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
I guess that you have malfunctioning Delete button.

Anonymous said...

Binyamen
It is very tough to bring up a large yeshiveshe family in the high rises of LES, it is part of the ill famed NYC.
On the other hand Williamsburg with its public housing also has its problems, An outsider that walks the corridors can not digest how charadie familes can live next door from the "holy of the holiest".

Shea said...

COL is a site run by a private guy who knows very little of the outside world.

Answer?
Is that what you call it?

Fact is it is the number one Chabad newsite in Hebrew.We know that Rav Koppelmans passing was not newsworthy for Lubavitch.
Don't take people for fools

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Your site has no hope, if you need Shea for survival

schneur said...

BInyamin,
If the Orthodox population of the LES is stable , then there were few Orthodox Jews to begin with there evn in 1960.
Most MO and yeshiva people will not send their kids to the elementary school of MTJ . Except for a few doctors connected to Beth Israel few MO's will even consider the LES as a place to live and even less so to raise kids. There is 1 butcher shoppe there, 1 grocery 2 bakeries , and 1 pizza store etc. and a few eateries mostly patronized by tourists
If the area is stable where do people daven besides Bialistocker , and YI. Please don't tell me that all the other shusl together besides rabbi Horowitz's have a crowd fo more than 20 men maximum.So how many people are there on Shabbes in Boyan, Zemach Zedek, Chasam Sofer, Stanton Street etc ?
Attempts in the 1980's of attracting Chassidim from W. were not encouraged by local leaders for their own reasons.
I think many Orthodox Jews in the uS are what is called "over the line" that is confused by their own PR with reality.
Washington Hts has a low crime rate has a few shuls (10), 2 that even get large crowds a school etc and YU , but it would be a PR trick to claim that the area is a fine Jewish neighborhood with all the facilities.Its a neighborhood of the old (KAJ)and young singles and newly marrieds who all move to NJ after a few years. There are major issues here. And I think many can admit it and others are on a PR run.One can say the glass is half full or half empty.

The same is true of The Lower East Side, obviously there are some shuls etc left ,(and several nationaly important personalities like rabbi Feistein and Speaker Silver together with rabbi Romm of the Bialistocker shul) but there are few active shuls there , and nothing to attract young people. Actually if there was , young Orthodox professionals could buy apts there as many are available, yet few do for obvious reasons.ITs not even on the map for them and I really doubt any yeshivashe peopel move there over going to lakewood, passaic or Monsey.
In 1972 and even later the LES had dozens of kosher restaurants dairy and meat, had at least 15 seforim stores,(not even 1 is left) Laibel B had a city wide famous store , , Rabbi Oschry;s shul BMH was functioning etc etc.Today you can not even buy a Chumash and rashi on the LES. And please don't misconstrue my words, there is still a nice communtiy there,with fine people but the direction continues downhill.And I say the same about my own area WH.
CH-770 on the other hand is very much alive with shuls , stores,Seforim stores, yeshivas etc even if they are all Chabad.

Anonymous said...

Todays yeshiva people don't believe the big city is good for bringing up children, even conservative Christian families feel that the big city is not a place to bring up a wholesome family.Nobody is ready to explain for their children why our neighbor has 2 Mommies or 2 Fathers, that will become the norm in our great enlightened society.

schneur said...

In the 1950's -1970's the poskim for American Jewry were rav Moshe and Rav Henkin on an even basis.
The manhigim the "hoge deaos" were the follwoing 4 men : the Lubavitcher Rebbe Rabbi MM Schneersohn, the RAv Rabbi DR. Yosef Soloveitchik, Rabbi Aron Kotler
and the Satmarer rebbe who represented a tiny group of people in those days.The Rav and the Lubavitcher rebbe were highly regarded by the masses of American orthodox Jew in an era before there were many Bnai Torah peopel and Chassidim of the Hungarian stripe. Reb Moshe was a posek but not the hoge deos. Let me site an example , prayer in public school , that was a serious issue that American orthodoxy looked for guidance from the Rebbe and the Rav not from Rav Moshe or the satamrer rebbe ore even reb Aaron.On mechizos rav Moshe was the MAN becuase it was mostly a halachic issue not public policy.Yet Soviet Jewry was an issue the Rebbe and the Rav were sought out as it was a matter of public policy. Of course others made their psoitions clear too.In amny cases it ws the Rebbe who was the only one to take a clear stand and offer clear cut guidance to the American community. that is just a fact not my own version of lubavitcher propoganda.
You are probably too young to remember the attempt by Rav PM Teitz and Rav Yankev to start a new rabbinic group to take over from the Agudas Horabbonim whose president Reb Moshe was.because they felt that R. Moshe was being used by various forces for their own purposes and was de facto not a leader.The organization failed , but it shows that even in his own rabbinic and early yeshiva community Rav Moshe was regarded as a zaddik, gaon and posek achron , but not amnhig.

Free Speech said...

It seems to me that there is a concerted effort by one or two Lubavitcher bloggers to stifle any dissent on this blog by immediately labelling any anti-Lubavitch comment as being "unbecoming" to this blog. The fact is that the "Lubavitcher Issue" is what drives this blog and is why people visit the site. If anything needs to be done it is the elimination of ALL personal insults on this blog and all commenters should be required to stick to comments that are free of insults of a personal nature.The answer isn't censorship;it is setting down NO INSULT groundrules and enforcing them.

Binyamin said...

Schneur,
I"m not pr'ing the Lower East Side.Nachum Segal does a fine enough job.
It has all that a community needs, schools, shuls on a small and stable scale.

Btw, Gertels the bakery closed down a couple of years ago.But, anyway the eateries were not for the locals and with the frum store owners and clientele no longer around there was less need.The frum business owners did not live on the LES for the most part.

With Williamsburg booming on the other side of the bridge who needs seforim stores on the LES?

I don't live on the LES but I daresay it's frum population from the late 60's early 70's is not much changed.
Washington Heights has tons of frum singles as a affordable, stable Jewish neighborhood.

Anyway, the argument in Crown Heights was over the crime situation, leaving the remaining Jews in harms way, which was not an issue in the co-ops on the LES.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Was Reb Moshe not consulted on Aguda matters by Sherer, the Agudas Israel was the pulpit for the Yeshiva world.
Was Reb Moshe not involved in Chinuch Atzmai?
Who were the decisive voices on the roundtabe issue that got RJBS officially alienated from the yeshiva world? Reb Moshe took a very extreme stance on the reform conservative movements. His pesaks rings like a Hungarian peasak of Reb Chaim Sofer or the Mharam Schick?
Maybe I am wrong, I am ready to listen

Anonymous said...

Binyamen
"With Williamsburg booming on the other side of the bridge who needs seforim stores on the LES?"
I heard the ladies ritual bath in LES has frequent visitors from Willi, by women who don't do the triple zero haircuts.

Anonymous said...

If the Orthodox population of the LES is stable , then there were few Orthodox Jews to begin with there evn in 1960.
--
That is correct. By 1960 only older frum Jews, mostly forgotten, were left. Their frei children lived in the suburbs and came to visit until it was time to throw the old folks in nursing homes or send them to Florida.

Frum stores on the LES served visitors more than locals. I'd even say that about Noah's Ark restaurant today (if it is still there; I hope it is not as they agreed to the Tav haYosher nonsense.). By the 70's, most of the stores were run by people from Brooklyn anyway - like Reb Nosson Gurary AH and Reb Leibel Bistritzky zol gezunt zayn from CH, lots of Israelis, and some Willy and BP types.

Anonymous said...

Is the Perlmutter bakery still open?

yoshe kalb said...

Rav Koppelman zt''l had some connection with Reb Nissen zt'l back in Tashkent.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
I searched Shturem.net in Hebrew and COL IN Hebrew, both make no mention of the passing of Harav Koppelman, Zkan Roshei Hayeshiva.
Since this was headline news on ALL the other FRUM SITES SUCH AS Bechadrei Chareidim ,which had a live hook up.Additionally there were many thousands of people at the levaya.I will have to tell you with the deepest disgust, that by Lubavitch there is absoloutely no respect fo chshuveh rabbonim, and you "defending" this charade shows that A)yOU ARE A MISERABLE LIAR .b)YOU ARE SHAYTACH TO THE SITRA achra

Anonymous said...

What is it with this 'zkan rosh yeshivah" business?? I am sure Rav Koppelman was a lovely Rosh Yeshivah, but how was he any greater than any other Rosh Yeshivah outside of his advanced age? Does the new "zkan rosh hayeshivos" now automatically assume some sort of heightened stature simply because of his age, too? I think most non-Yeshivish types find this whole concept of gadlus, simply based on age or yeshivah enrollment laughable at best. Where is the lamdus and Gaonus a "Rosh Yeshivah" of enormous stature is supposed to produce? People here keep asking for something beyond his age and no one has anything to produce.

The bottom line is: not one major Lithuanian Rosh Yeshivah alive today can point to any chiddushim or s'forim that remotely resemble the output of the leading Gaonim of previous generations. I dare you. Name the sefer. Can the supporters of Rosh Yeshivas of Mir or BMG or Brisk or any other "top" Yeshivah refer me to something that would cause talmidim in 30 or 40 years to jump at their name???

PS - who is the new "Zkan Rosh Hayeshivos"? Where I can I sign up to his fan club??

Anon3 said...

Shea
"Just for the record:There were many times the amount of people at the levaya than on gimmel tammuz".So what?
Just for the record:There were many times the amount of people at the past popes levaye than any godol's levaye so what do numbers prove?Stop with the "my daddy is stronger then your daddy" shtick.You sound infantile.

Anonymous said...

Anon3: Most American educated Hassidim and haredim sound infantile and that includes Hassidim and "yeshivishe" types. That's because the Yeshivahs they attend are centers for propaganda and indoctrination.They do not foster individuality and critical thought.On the other hand,the better public schools and certainly most prep schools do foster the development of independent thought.You will also find that the graduates of secular or MO schools are far more advanced in interpersonal skills as well.A lot of the ad hominem attacks on this and other Haredi web sites prove my point. The fact is that most of these commenters are simply unable to form a sentence that is not a personal attack but is based on "arguing the facts."That's the state of affairs in the Haredi world today.Every time a frum spokesman goes on TV,we have to hide from "shande" esp. the Hassidic PR experts.I remember hearing a certain well known Hassidic spokesman tell a reporter on TV that a certain Hasidic personality accused of wrongdoing could not go to jail because"he had younger children who were not yet married." The reporter was extremely "impressed" by that line of reasoning.

Anonymous said...

Hate to be off topic, But, I wanted to know if you could confirm or deny this story He tells in this Lecture about the Schnerson family in Australia and what happened in the end In this shiur about 30 minutes in


http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Mordechai_Becher/2011-06-20/From_Cairo_to_Cambridge_Part_2_or_3_The_Life_of_Maimonides/Rabbi__Mordechai_Becher__From_Cairo_to_Cambridge_Part_2_of_3_The_Life_of_Maimonides__2011-06-20.wmv

pitputim said...

Rabbi Koppelman z"l said:

"And in truth their prime minister, (Begin) is no leader. Where did he learn? Where are his tefilin? He is really from the worst of the worst; He was educated among criminals and murderers (the terrorist movement in the time of the British mandate-Ed.) and it is unbelievable that religious Jews flatter him and are friendly to him. He is responsible for the thousands and tens of thousands of Jewish souls lost to Torah. Who is responsible if not the prime minister? Thus, he resembles the wicked Titus; he is worse than the wicked Haman, because Haman attempted only physical annihilation, whereas he has caused thousands and tens of thousands to forsake their religion."

Anonymous said...

Well Reb Tzig, can anyone elaborate on the reason Bobov left ??

Why did R'Shlomo get on so well with the Rayatz and Rashag but had nothing to do with Dor Shvii ?

It is not because of his opinion on Eretz Yisrael (as Satmar did) ???

Anon3 said...

Anonymous 9:30 PM
I understand and empathize with most of your above view.However we do have the dictum of "aseh lecho rav".In my humble opinion,without going into the etymology of the word "rav", the definition of the word is a true manhig Yisroel,not necessarily a Rosh Yeshiva of which we have a plethora.
A true manhig is one who is not parochial and myopic but is concerned with the welfare,both physical and spiritual,of every single Jew of no matter what flavor or background.There were such individuals in the recent past but, alas, no such being exists anymore.What we have are the self appointed "Gedolai Yisroel",the hucksters whose concern is perpetuating their own existence and don't or can't see beyond their own daled amos.And we,the blind mice,follow them because they represent the fairly new coined title,"Das Torah",a term that was never really part of the Jewish lexicon.
We are truly a dor yosom and umitzapim leyishuah,the sooner the better.

pitputim said...

Anon3 where in shulchan aruch does it say that Rav means Manhig in the context? I can't recall this as the meaning of Rav Hamuvhak in hilchos kvod talmidei chachomim. In point of fact for most people it is actually seforim these days!

Anonymous said...

surprised that no mention is even made here about the one that actually kept Chovevei Torah going all the years it was the indefatigable Rabbi Dr. Avrohom Yitzchok Wolf a"h a true tzadik that stuck it out!

Arthur said...

"Anon3 where in shulchan aruch does it say that Rav means Manhig in the context?"
I did say "in my humble opinion". I didn't intend it to be the definitive meaning of the word but in any case a manhig we're still lacking.

Anon3 said...

Whoops!I let the cat out of the bag by mistakenly using the name of my "alter ego".

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Well Reb Tzig, can anyone elaborate on the reason Bobov left ??"
Did you hear from your Tati that CH was a crime ridden Neighborhood and all the Jews left to other neighborhoods?
What exactly are you asking?

Anonymous said...

Arthur #3
You are wrong about Asie Lecho Rav, it means a local Rebbe with a local approach

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Why did R'Shlomo get on so well with the Rayatz and Rashag but had nothing to do with Dor Shvii ?"
Can you still ask the Bobover? please ask because I am losing sleep on it.
I assume that he held a Shtriemel makes a Rebbe, since that is the reason the he and his father and his son are Rebbes.
So how can u be a rebbe with a Kniech. He has a strong point, don"t you think so?

schneur said...

IT is important not to confuse wishful thinking, Publicity releases and hype with the real facts on the ground and I am speaking about the Lower East Side. Anyone who was even remotely familiar with Jewish life there in the 1960's knows the truth.And they know the direction things are going.
On the same subject I am reminded of smaller Orthodox communities advertising for new settlers. they state the comunity has a day school (actually located in an ajacent communtiy 20 miles away) ahigh school (located 50 miles away) it has kosher shopping (ditto , or a super market with a large selection of standard OU products Empire frozen meat packaged baked goods etc) a Torah enviorement (should read a small group of MO families) excellent rabbinic leadership (should read a YU rabbi who stays for 2 years and leaves at th end) an active Chabad house (should read that has services once a week)
I guess genaivas Daas is not important !