in the good old glory days of belz, a small tiny hut village with muddy swampy dirt roads, they did not need to be comunist style control, the chasiddim out of love for their rebbi. in belz of today its not as much as the rebbi controls, but he has extreme people who control the mind set how things should be done.
in skver, how does the rebbi get his information? he's surrounded by 7 8 people who give over to the rebbi, the give bu leave out, they give but add, they give but are one sided, and even when the rebbi will question him, he'll still work with agenda, the skver rebbi himself changed a lot, the skver rebbi of 2010 is noy at all the same skver rebbi of 1980, and fault for this is the people around him. ever thought into it why avigdor estreicher is not being listen to? shaya unger is there to explain thing to the rebbi.
b"h in bobov this is so far, the bobov rebbi never had to give out takunes, he was (and is not) a contol freak. may all learn from the nicest chassidus of bobov how to be a manhig.
If they could demonstrate a greater success rate with the youth than other Kreizn - hecherashti. But close to 100 kids otd over a 2 year period in a community of 7000 is abysmal. Its an insular community there's no excuse This going kop in vant will never end. The lunacy of revering a Takono that doesn't work but must be obeyed since Der Tuhtte/Hrhk's rootzn was such is all they know. Rabbi Twerski should end the secrecy come out of his room. Learn and Daven with the Oylom be approachable in BaisMedresh. The problem is he can't lead that way. He's too small a man. Once you take away the mistique there's nothing left. Observing his holoch yelech won't inspire anyone. And to start having to put on a show and Mentshlzach ois is too hard at age 70. He's had it great for almost 4 decades living it up behind the window shades. His father was approachable in many ways. Rebitzin Tranna knew her son could only make if access to the Peasantry was controlled. All interaction had to be limited. His appearances all staged. This stifling atmosphere is confused by the Skverer Oylom with Avirre DKedushe. But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney.
They believe that this rebbe is greater than the Balsht"v ZL Byomov If the rank and file think that this rebbe passes for what's considered an Ish Kodosh imagine what their conception of the Balsht"v must be. Der grester misnaged bishaytoy volt zach dos nisht getroyt !
Rabbi Twerski should end the secrecy come out of his room. Learn and Daven with the Oylom be approachable in BaisMedresh. The problem is he can't lead that way. He's too small a man. Once you take away the mistique there's nothing left. Observing his holoch yelech won't inspire anyone. And to start having to put on a show and Mentshlzach ois is too hard at age 70. He's had it great for almost 4 decades living it up behind the window shades.
Bobov (means beans in Russian, by the way). You are right-BZ Bobov is not a control freak-he is just a freak.
These takunes are a regular Communist control stuff. If somebody does not like it, he should not live there. If you were born there-...well i guess tough luck :(
Did anyone else notice the contradiction? Shalom and Mashma'as. You can have either of them but not both."
Not so. If there's mashmaas there's sholom. If there's no mashmaas the sholom is disrupted. You will need to be immolated to restore sholom to the holy Shikun. I can hear Al Sharpton chanting "No mashmaas No Peace!"
Anon "But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney." there are 100's of people that came to skver and became full fledge chasidim from his Hioyrirus. You make a point that maybe the OTD is connected to the stringent way of life of that village.But where is the Rebbe in to the picture.Most of the takunas are not rebbe related, he his the attorney general to enforce it. So would you recommend that he should loosen up, stop the 1 gender sidewalks? 82 day mikva?
Anon "This going kop in vant will never end" His fathers claim to fame is his irrational stubbornness, eventualy he was successful, he built up the impossible, Delivered a Russian chasidus to Hungarians, 99% of them never knew that Skver exist and now their are 3rd generation Chernobler chasidim, that don't know that Galanta, Serdeyheli existed.. He brought life to a dead breed.
"But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney." there are 100's of people that came to skver and became full fledge chasidim from his Hioyrirus. "
I guess you're right. Evidently true Hisoyrerus can come from baloney..
avigdor estreicher is not being listen to? shaya unger is there to explain thing to the rebbi.
Inedible cookies versus Shop Rite mayonnaise repackaged with the Skvere hechsher or is this a different Unger? I know Avigdor Ostreicher is indeed the baker.
anon 5.06 Most of the takunas are not rebbe related, he his the attorney general to enforce it.
BUDDY, OIB S'SHTINKT, SHTINKED FIN DER KOP
In Stalins time, when every Russian was in jail, everybody said it is not his fault either.. You can not enforce your minhogim or chasidus on anybody-period.This is really crazy!!!!
Hirshel I realize that you are in to giving a platform for idiots that want to dump their vomit on the Lubavicher Rebbe, Guys like state of mind are given free reign to insult with no basis. I don't think any charidie site would pass such a piece.
Russian Chusid Are you talking as a frum Jew? or as a westernized secular liberal person? If you are frum the you should realize that Yiddishkiet needs to be enfoced for the masses.
Anon "Learn and Daven with the Oylom be approachable in BaisMedresh. " He is quiet approachable by kvitlech. There is no Rebbe that spent so many hours listening to yiddishe kinder, showing them empathy, he gives them the feeling that he feels your pain.You could say that he is baloney,I can not argue with that, since Elokim Yireh Lelievov. Why does he have to be approachable on your terms?
"But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney." there are 100's of people that came to skver and became full fledged chasidim from his Hioyrirus"
I see you're a sincere Skverer. You need to learn your tfise in yiddishkeit is warped Its not your fault its your leaders Becoming a 'full fledged" chosid is not 'real Hisoyrerus'. That's joining a party. The koyach hasheker can do that. To be Meoyrer to Davnen Lernen Yiras Chet that's where Emmes is crucial. Hoodwinking existing ehrliche yidden to believe in him is possible. To be meoyrer the local kids to yiras shomayim is not. I remember in the dormitory in yeshiva a Skverer Bocher reading the Post with his gartl on. The Deyzher Ruv ZL desription of Riminev or the Kol Aryeh's toldos chayim where his Kesher with Tzanz is desribed should be more than enough to cure any yelidey Ungarn of this Skverer stupidity. You can see what the Hungarian Gedolim were looking for in Chasidus. Not this junk of protecting the rebbes 'holy' body so he will be Mashpia Gezint Parnuse in Naches. Your encouraged not to be oysek in growing but to remain a worker drone in service of the noblility. I can only imagine mi yegalle offor meyeynecho Shinyever Ruv ZL !
Hirshel If you are still a chosid of the Lubavicher Rebbe, and you plan to visit his Ohel, then do a little Cheshbon haNefesh, If you would run a site that is smearing your fathers name on a daily basis... Plz think for a second,
Anon "To be Meoyrer to Davnen Lernen Yiras Chet that's where Emmes is crucial. " their is no question in my mind that the Skverer Rebbe is meoyrer hundreds of bucherim to Teshuva and to Hasmode Betorah, I believe that by his saying Kiel Mistater and his Yetzave is bringing hundreds of yidden to teshuva. If you think different theen you dont know skver. Again I can not vouch if the rebbe is genuine, since Elokim Yireh Lelievov. I heard from many people that visited for shabosim in Skver say, that they felt elated for the holy atmosphere of a simple shabos. I am no Skverer Chusid in no shape or form , but I believe your extreme absolute hatred of a place like Skver is overboard.
showing them empathy, he gives them the feeling that he feels your pain.You could say that he is baloney,I can not argue with that, since Elokim Yireh Lelievov. Why does he have to be approachable on your terms?"
This is considered gor a hoyche madrego in the Sifrey Hachsidus. His Hisnahagus up until his coronation did not show promise of such hasogos. The Rambam is already mvarrer the concept of Muchzik Bachsidus. So its nire le'inayim. Shoyn eynmol ! A gornisht mit nisht. Btw hasmodo was a big item in skver. This guy was known kol yomov to go leydig.
How does takone alef square (excuse the pun) with the mishne in pirkei ovois, v'al tehi don yechidi she'ein don yechidi elo echod? While other chasidus impose a similar rule in practice, spelling it out like this is breathtaking arrogance and explains why they are in the rut they're in.
It is also at odds with what the rebbe's lawyer said that he lacks the power to compel anyone to follow his rules. See here
Why does he have to be approachable on your terms?"
Just to humanize him. (umensh vos er iz..) I don't believe interaction with him will add one iota of Yiras HaShem. But by removing all the practices that are intended to deify him one hopes the youth will turn their attention to the Real Thing !
Anon "This guy was known kol yomov to go leydig." if you believe his father was a semi somebody, Why do you think he did not pass him on for his BIL. The last year he was next to him by the kvitlech.... Reb Moshe Unger of New Square write in his Reshimos, that RYY said in three points the world has a mistake in their assumption of my son. that he is a much bigger yiras shomaim then they assume, That he is much bigger masmid then they assume, that he is a much bigger pikech then they assume. Obviously Reb Moshe is lying, since you have too many eyewitness to the contrary.
Hirshel I am happy at least that you know right from wrong, So the question is bigger, why have a platform to smear your former Rebbe(I cant believe that you still are a chabad chosid)and other gedolim too?
Anon "The Rambam is already mvarrer the concept of Muchzik Bachsidus" please give me the Marie Mokem in the sefer haYad, I will check if he is up to par with the rambams guidelines.
Disclaimer,I am no Skverer Chusid in no shape or form , but I believe your extreme absolute hatred of a place like Skver is overboard.
Anon "I don't believe interaction with him will add one iota of Yiras HaShem." Forget about Yiras shomaim, is giving a listening ear for a jew is not a gemach? is that mitzva chopped liver?
Hirshel I realize that you have a censor button when the essence of your blog is questioned Al Kvodi lo Muchisem (on the Rebbe and other Guteh Yidden their is no censor) but Al Kvod Hablogmiester Muchisem(then there is a strong censor)
Many are concerned for the kuvod of the Rebbe. They should be concerned about the rights of the the followers. Same in Belz, people are living in terror. Free Belz, Free Skvere. Bobov is dead. Any similarities with Reb Shlome's regime is coincidental. It's hard to gauge which regime is worse.
Jingle Belz "They should be concerned about the rights of the the followers." Yiddishkiet is no democracy, their are no rights in yidiskiet, Torah or no Torah
Disclaimer,I am no Skverer Chusid in no shape or form , but I believe your extreme absolute hatred of a place like Skver is overboard."
You are a Skverer. That you have to disguise yourself should give you pause. Your Rebbe caused the greatest Chilul Hashem ever Al admas America. He was goyrem ver veys vifl sinas yisrol. This affects all of us. Especially frumer yidden. If we want to identify and look for eitzes to minimize this even negef's effect on us. We are not haters. We don't have to tolerate a murderous baal geyeh who puts all erliche yidden at risk. You may have been taught to take abuse from him. I wasn't. He has a din rodef if he continues his derech resha. The "place" Skver is full of eydelle yidden. Its Rabbi Twersky who's the issue. You people always try to associate him with the piety and generosity of the Toyshvim. In other places the its Chasidim who bask in the rebbe's Gadless...
Even though the majority of Yidden are not under the control of Rokeach and Twersky, they are stll fine erliche yidden. If freedom is not allowed and the oilam has to be coerced into being Hareidi to prevent them from becoming MO, that means the system has no value. Not Torah, the artificial system that has arisen over the last 250 years. As time marches on these groups will disappear because people want be free. Free Belz - Free Skvere.
r is no question in my mind that the Skverer Rebbe is meoyrer hundreds of bucherim to Teshuva and to Hasmode Betorah, I believe that by his saying Kiel Mistater and his Yetzave is bringing hundreds of yidden to teshuva"
To take an erliche bochur and red him ayn your the source of his inspiration is so pachim ktanim The Minchas Eluzor ZL didn't let Kvartin finish singing Tiyher. Er fargint eym nisht zahne treyrn. If your rebbe can kvitshe and be Meoyrer an existing ehrliche bochur means er halt chotsh vu kvartin hot gehaltn. We are talking the korrev to 100 avkgefallene nebach in 2 years who grew up choysim Btsiloy. Their Chinuch and every detail scrutinized by him They had his Yetzaveh playing in their heads. Redst azoy narish!
I'm reminded The imrei chaim MVizhnitz ZL after the war was told Vienna is a city of Ovrim VShuvim. He said ovrim zey ich shuvim zey ich nisht..
To the lubavitcher whiners. Here's my understanding. Every argument has its answer. Hirshl expects you guys to pummel the opposition Not stifle the debate. I see how easy some of these guys can be desroyed. I won't do it since I'm one of them not you. But look at the Skverer. They should be hanging their heads in shame And they keep on slugging. Its you that are letting Hirshl down not the reverse
Re:Deleting my comment by the newly arrived Czenzur in Petterburg I am more than willing to answer any of your criticisms on a factual basis as long as it doesn't contain the words "vomit" or "idiot." How can you allow all these comments on Twerskis,Rokeachs,and Halberstams,and somehow immunize yourself against any criticism of Lubavitch?If those are the groundrules,why should anyone with a minimum of intelligence take anything you say seriously?Who was "matir" the blood of the greatest Hassidishe Rebbes with thousands of followers?You print stuff about the Belzer Rebbes "weight problem?" That's OK for a chassidishe yungerman to print?Only Lubavitch has something to offer the world-not Skver,Belz,or Bobov? And Lubavitch never did anything wrong? Really?It's ok to write "ongefressener Tzureh"[anon.5:24] about the Belzer Rov but if I mention the name "Schneerson" you call in the Czenzur?Hayitochein?
כ' המחבר ביו"ד סי' רמ"ג ס"ג דתלמיד חכם המזלזל במצוות ואין בו יראת שמים הרי הוא כקל שבציבור. והסביר הברכ"י בשיורי ברכה שם דהיינו "שיש בידו עון חילול ה' שהוא חמור מאוד, ועוד שההמון למדין ממנו דילפינן מקלקלתא והוא חוטא ומחטיא ונשא הצעי"ר עליו את כל עונותיהם". עוד הביא הברכ"י שם בשם הרב זקן אהרן סי' ל"ב דכל תלמיד חכם שיש בידו חילול ה' אסור לשמוע דברי תורה מפיו ולסמוך על הוראתו ע"כ.
I duuno much about Belz... or Bubov... or Lubavitch.
But, as a former Skvere "Askin" who left the fold over a dozen years ago because of all the corruption, deceit, arrogance and mind control I can say from PERSONAL experience that the Skvere has not one iota of Yiras Shomayim. I'm surprised that he lasted as long as he did.
I did NOT live in the "heilege shtetel", but the expectation was still exactly the same as stated in the Takonos: The Rebbi's will is the ONLY thing that counted. Askanim were expected to do anything and exverything that enhanced the agenda. Legality, Halacha, Chinuch and Haskafa were totally irrelevant.
When I dared to say "lets go ask a Rov" I was blacklisted and terrorized.
But here's the kicker that few people know about Skver: In my case and maby others WE WERE FORCED TO STAY!
That's right, as long as you were needed you HAD to stay. My begging that I wanted to leave didn't let it happen.
you are correct, Sir. Those will go as well. The only thing I am guilty of here is not paying close enough attention, especially Yiddish with English letters.
Iwasonce If you bring this as a source against the skverer, Where did you see a Zilzul Bemitzvas by the Skeverer, besides davening after Zman Tefila? If you are getting halachic technical, then get me a source on the issur of chilul hashem? According to the Rambam, it means a sin in front of 10 Jews. I the little nobody is searching for halachic source, that bad PR in front of the goyish world, has the halchic term of Chilul Hashem, maybe you will find some mussar seforim as the Kav Hayosher etc..but please find halacha.Obviously I agree,it is no kidush hashem.
Getting back to the Rottenberg Saga, I don't see where the deeds of a boy Spitzer gets related to the Skverer Rebbe, why ? because he is enforcing a Tekona of his village? Vechi Yovad Heolom Mipnie Hashotim. Is Rav Elye Ber Vachtfogel responsible for the big chilul hashem of his former Right hand Libel Trooper. Who used the power of rightwing halacha to trap a Eishes Ish? This whole organization and its tactic was founded by rav Wachtfogel to fight RCA and Druckman. I am not accusing Rav Wachtfogel here, but it is a important analogy, that by that case the world did not put Wachtfogel to dry.
Iwasonce thanks for being honest about being a former Skverer, You have issues with Skver,Maybe you were corrupted and you were caught redhanded, I never met a Machloke that is one sided. Every Kehila has people that deserted them for askunas issue, I hope you learned your lesson and you are no askan for a Rebbe or Kehila.Even the Edeler Yid Reb Shloma Bobover had to get rid of 1 his biggest Askonim and Fund raiser. That guy cursed him and his rebetzin on every street corner in BP. Yesterday in the morning someone was picked up by police in 5 towns. The Eish Kodesh Kehila is accusing their treasurer with stealing funds. There is no question in my mind that he is now a enemy of Rav Wienberg, he and his family probably have a long list of Wienberg abuses. It is interesting that it was not brought 1st to a bies din.
Iwasonce "In my case and maby others WE WERE FORCED TO STAY!" if you did not live in his village how can he force? He sends black helicopters and UFO's to terrorize you in Brooklyn?
I don't know of 100 boys that fell out, and I'm a Skverer I'm wondering where this number comes from it has no ground at all, you can check it yourself.
Anon wrote: "If you are getting halachic technical, then get me a source on the issur of chilul hashem? According to the Rambam, it means a sin in front of 10 Jews. I the little nobody is searching for halachic source, that bad PR in front of the goyish world, has the halchic term of Chilul Hashem, maybe you will find some mussar seforim as the Kav Hayosher etc..but please find halacha.Obviously I agree,it is no kidush hashem."
Actually, the Rambam in פרק ה' הלכה יג of הלכות יסודי התורה writes:
ויש דברים אחרים שהן בכלל חילול השם. והוא שיעשה אותם אדם גדול בתורה ומפורסם בחסידות דברים שהבריות מרננים אחריו בשבילם. ואע''פ שאינן עבירות הרי זה חילל את השם כגון
Is the Rambam some "mussar sefer"?
We live in such unbelievable times! Things that any half sensible person would be repulsed by are taken in stride.
Do you know that OVER 50 newspapers reported the Rottenberg story?
Iwasonce "In my case and maby others WE WERE FORCED TO STAY!" if you did not live in his village how can he force? He sends black helicopters and UFO's to terrorize you in Brooklyn?
Good question.
I was made to understand in no uncertain terms that if I leave my Askunis I would be ostracized by all. Leaving the job meant leaving the whole support system that a person has, Shul, friends, etc.
I did it anyway, and it took years to rebuild.
They know the power of "Chevra" and use it to the fullest advantage.
In their brainwashed minds... leaving meant a serious פגם in Emunas Tzidikim. Sharing any info about what went on made me a Rodef... Not simple..
Anon writes: "You have issues with Skver,Maybe you were corrupted and you were caught redhanded, I never met a Machloke that is one sided."
Typical Skvere brainwashing..
Maybe I WASN'T corrupted... and maybe I personally went to the heilega Rebbe and told him about the corruption again and again, until Shia Gabba pulled me away and warned me, and then "mysteriously" my tires were slashed...
We all know that Skver never does such things... and we know that the College Program scandal was just a bunch of anti-semites out to get all Yiden...
" I don't see where the deeds of a boy Spitzer gets related to the Skverer Rebbe"
You don't see it, because you don't WANT to see it.
כל שיש בידו למחות ואינו מוחה נתפס על אותו עון.
The Spitzer boy could have been harassed and expelled from Yeshiva in a blink of an eye if the Heilige Rebbe just said one word, just like numerous Yingeleit were harassed for the "aveira" of not making a Shulem Zucher at the heilege tisch...
על כבודי לא מחיתם ועל כבוד בשר ודם מחיתם.
Where is the Rebbe when it comes to be Moche on חילול ה'????
Iwasonce I am not saying that Skverer Rebbe is against enforcing that he is one and only supreme leader of New Square, It is the offical dogma of that village as you see in the paper that Tzig posted. But that does not make him a accomplice in the fire on Rottenberg, and not in the Chilul Hashem that it caused.
Iwasonce "Where is the Rebbe when it comes to be Moche on חילול ה'????" didnt he say something? you should off send him a transcript of your style Mechoye
Iwasonce "Sure, there are two sides to any story. So you're saying that in every case both sides are a little right and a little wrong?" yes, I believe that in most cases there are some gray areas,
Reb Moshe Unger of New Square write in his Reshimos, that RYY said in three points the world has a mistake in their assumption of my son. that he is a much bigger yiras shomaim then they assume, That he is much bigger masmid then they assume, that he is a much bigger pikech then they assume. Obviously Reb Moshe is lying, since you have too many eyewitness to the contrary."
Klum av meyid al bnoy applies to Moyshe Rabbeynu as well. If you have a tzadik mfursom ( r arele belzer for exmpl) and you quote his father -mheche teyse. But to build yesh meayin? Bifrat to build up a man that's a gvar alimnik vos yidden laydn fun em yorn lang. The biggest tzadik is also a bosor vodom. This is once again an example of Skverer mutant emunas tzadikim. The Shach himself said by a din toyra he saw the issue a certain way due to a negiye. Infallability is believed by millions of notzrim not lehavdil yidden.
I'll tell you a sod fun cheder. The Brisker Rov wrote a Niflediker Haskomo for R leizer Shach ZL. Mamash Hafloges. The BR s children had chiluke deyos with R leizer re bchiros tziyonus etc. So they said yeder mench muz doch mach chotsh ein toyus in lebn. Der haskomo iz geven dem tatns toyus!
Iwasonce "Typical Skvere brainwashing.." Oi bin ich a skverer, Oi bin ich a Skverer... I am no Skverer, never was, never will be one, since I am not sure that Skverer Rebbe or for the same reason all other Tzadikie hadoir are for real. But at the same token I am not sure that he is the Oicher Yisroel. So why invest my 5 dollar pidyon nefesh in something that I am not definite. Obviously you were gullible and were absolute sure that the Skverer is the real McCoy so you got affiliated to the tune of becoming a askan. Liten to my advice and you will not get burned, take everything with a grain of salt, a little cynicism and skepticism is good in life, and don't forget to put in your will for you kids and generations to come, Never ever be a askun for these tribes, they are in it for them self, even when they are real Tzadikim.It is never a bigger mitzva then Tekias Shofar, that you can be a innocent bystander and just listen.
Anon "The Shach himself said by a din toyra he saw the issue a certain way due to a negiye." I saw that Reb Mottel Zilber quoting a sefer that by chasidim we believe there were no yeridas hadorois, so could be that the holy Rebbe RYY was above and beyond Negias Ishis. I can not vouch anything, but you have to respect others that take that route.
Anon "Der haskomo iz geven dem tatns toyus!" did the sons say it ? or the einikel AJ? It is very hard to believe it,since if the BR made 1 mistake then maybe I can add on 2 or 3 mistakes more...but if you say you heard it from them....then I am forced to believe you
Anon "Infallability is believed by millions of notzrim not lehavdil yidden." ask a ungarischer yid, if the CS was infallible?????? Ask a Satmarer chusid (Bnie Yoel) if the Satmar Ruv was infallible?
Ask a Klausenburger/Bobiover if the Sanzer Ruv was infallible?
in my yiddiskiet where I reside and hangout every 2nd Tzadik is infallible? Did you see in one Artscroll biography some minor negative aspect of their total lifetime? Nada Zilch
the einikel AJ? It is very hard to believe it,since if the BR made 1 mistake then maybe I can add on 2 or 3 "
What's this AJ? He's more talmmid chochom lamdn baal svore Erlicher Yid marbitz Toyre than you have hasogos in. From the Yechidey hador that are mkayem loy soguru mipney ish and the Gvirim limiyneyhem.
Annon wrote: "I am not saying that Skverer Rebbe is against enforcing that he is one and only supreme leader of New Square, It is the offical dogma of that village as you see in the paper that Tzig posted."
I believe that THIS is the real (and rarely mentioned) crux of the problem. "Official dogma that runs counter to Torah is בטל ומבוטל.
Here are two tidbits from the Shaarei Teshuva Shar Gimal, that would seem to say that Skver style dogma is a very, very serious NoNo:
ס. ובאחיכם בני ישראל איש באחיו לא תרדה בו בפרך (ויקרא כה). לא ישתעבד אדם בחביריו. ואם אימתו עליהם או שהם בושים להחל דברו. לא יצוה אותם לעשות קטנה או גדולה. אלא לרצונם ותועלתם. ואפילו להחם צפחת מים או לצאת בשליחות אל רחוב העיר לקנות עד ככר לחם. אבל אדם שאינו נוהג כשורה מותר לצוותו לכל אשר יחפוץ:
And a second one:
ס. ובאחיכם בני ישראל איש באחיו לא תרדה בו בפרך (ויקרא כה). לא ישתעבד אדם בחביריו. ואם אימתו עליהם או שהם בושים להחל דברו. לא יצוה אותם לעשות קטנה או גדולה. אלא לרצונם ותועלתם. ואפילו להחם צפחת מים או לצאת בשליחות אל רחוב העיר לקנות עד ככר לחם. אבל אדם שאינו נוהג כשורה מותר לצוותו לכל אשר יחפוץ:
קסב. וכת הנותנים חתיתם בארץ החיים דבר עליהם יחזקאל עליו השלום (יחזקאל לב), אשר נתנו חתיתם בארץ החיים וגו' ותהי עונותם על עצמותם.למדנו מזה כי לא יכפר עליהם המות. אכן עד עולם עונותם על עצמותם. ואמרו רבותינו זכרונם לברכה המינין והאפיקורסין, ושכפרו בתחיית המתים, שפירשו מדרכי צבור, ושנתנו חתיתם בארץ החיים כגון הפרנסים המטילים אימה יתירה על הצבור שלא לשם שמים, ושחטאו ושהחטיאו את הרבים כגון ירבעם בן נבט וחביריו - יורדין לגיהנם ונידונין בה לדורי דורות. שנאמר (ישעיה סו) ויצאו וראו בפגרי האנשים הפושעים בי כי תולעתם לא תמות וגו':
קסג. ועונש הנותנים חתיתם בארץ חיים מחמשה הפנים. השנים מצד עצמו והשלשה מצד העם:
השניים שהם מצד עצמו
האחד - כי האנוש רמה ותולעה, וכן נקרא גם עוד בחיים חיותו. ולא דיו שלא ישח ולא ישפל. כי ישתרר גם השתרר שלא לשם שמים. וגם במחשבת הגאוה מבלי השתרר נפסד האדם. שנאמר (משליטו) תועבת ה' כל גבה לב:
קסד. והשני - כי האדם חייב להכין מערכי לב בכל עת. להשכין בלבו אימה ויראה מעל פני הש"י. ועל הרשעים נאמר (ירמיה ח) ולא אמרו בלבבם נירא נא את ה' אלהינו. והאיש הנותן חתיתו בארץ חיים שלא לשם שמים. אין בלבו אימה מלפני השם, ורוצה להטיל אימתו על בריותיו. ותחת שיש לו לערוך מחשבות להשכין אימת השם בלבו. הוא עורך אותם להטיל אימת עצמו על העם השי"ת. ונאמר (ש"ב כג) מושל באדם צדיק מושל יראת אלהים. פירוש ראוי להיות מושל באדם צדיק שהוא מושל יראת אלהים. כי אחר שהוא ירא את הש"י ראוי לעמו שייראו מלפניו:
והשלשה פנים שהם מצד העם
קסה. האחד - כי הוא מצער הציבור בהטלת אימתו. ונאמר (ויקרא כה) לא תונו איש את עמיתו. והוא על ענין הצער בדברים כאשר ביארנו כבר:
קסו. והשני כי כמה מכשולים באים בסיבת הטלת אימה, כמו שאמרו רבותינו זכרונם לברכה לעולם אל יטיל אדם באימה יתירה בתוך ביתו שהרי פילגש בגבעה הטיל עליה בעלה אימה יתירה והפילה כמה רבבות מישראל:
קסז. והשלישי כי עם הקדוש שהם עובדי השם יתברך, אין להם להכנע לבשר ודם, ואינו מן הראוי להיות מורא בשר ודם עליהם אלא לש"ש. שנאמר (שם) כי לי בני ישראל עבדים, עבדי הם ולא עבדים לעבדים. ונאמר (שמות יט) ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש. לשון כהנים אדונים ושרים. וכמוהו (ש"ב ח) ובני דוד כהנים היו. וכל העם נקראו ממלכה. מלשון (מ"א יח) אם יש גוי וממלכה. (ישעיה ס) כי הגוי והממלכה. פירושו - אתם תהיו לי ממלכה שכולה שרים שלא יהיה עליכם עול בשר ודם. ונאמר (שם נא) מי את ותיראי מאנוש ימות. ונאמר (שם) אל תיראו חרפת אנוש.
ואמרו רבותינו זכרונם לברכה משרבו האומרים לרע טוב ולטוב רע פרקו מעליהם עול שמים והושלך עליהם עול בשר ודם. ואמר דוד המלך עליו השלום (תהלים ט) קומה ה' אל יעוז אנוש ישפטו גוים על פניך. שיתה ה' מורה להם ידעו גוים אנוש המה סלה. למדנו מזה כי עת אשר יעוז אנוש אינו מכיר שהוא אנוש. כי אין שררה ראויה לאנוש זולתי לשם שמים.
"Where is the Rebbe when it comes to be Moche on חילול ה'????" didnt he say something? you should off send him a transcript of your style Mechoye"
Actually, he needs NO transcript. לא המדרש עיקר אלא המעשה.
I am continuously amazed at the disconnect of the brainwashed. The poor helpless Rebbe can only muster words of discouragement when it comes to Spitzer and very efficient actions when it comes to his כבוד המדומה.
I've still get plenty of friends in Skver and you know what they're busy with RIGHT NOW? Not talking Loshon Horah is the "in" thing... And my friends (who are waiting to throw off the עבודת פרך (and where btw among the first תושבים in Skver - are afraid to even whisper. They now that informants are snooping...
""Sure, there are two sides to any story. So you're saying that in every case both sides are a little right and a little wrong?" yes, I believe that in most cases there are some gray areas,"
Ah the luxury of ignorance!
And in some cases when people offer to give testimony in Bais Din they ar threatened with losing their jobs....
Annon says: "Obviously you were gullible and were absolute sure that the Skverer is the real McCoy so you got affiliated to the tune of becoming a askan."
That is true. I was taken. And thousands are being fooled right now. TIt hurts to think how many people will give away the bulk of their lives to such foolishness. And it hurts even more when well meaning people call it Loshon Horah to try to save the ignorant..............
As far as what RYY though of his son, there I three explanations על פי שלחון ערוך:
1( He was blinded by Negious. This is mentioned in Chazal often, even in Shulchan Aruch יו"ד ס' רמ"ב ס' ל"ו רמ"א states that a Talmud Chochim isnt trusted to Pasken on issues where he has a נגיעות without reasoning that can be validated.
2) The son was a "good boy" and afterwards הקדיח תבשילו.
3) RYY never said anything of the sort, the מקורבים added, embellished or just made up. Yeah, when you're an askan you actually get to see that such things happen. When I was "Kosher" they said good things about me that weren't true, and when I became a Koifer Be'Eminas tzadikim they made up bad things....
Definitely. But Only to do what Hashem wants. Not to magically turn the Rebbe's rotzon into Hashem's ratzon, regardless of any Mekoros in Chazal. And surely not to enforce the Rebbe's ratzon by brute force, regardless of any Mekoros in Chazal.
When a Rebbe asks people to follow him blindly AND he insinuates that they do against the Torah... he stops being a Rebbe and becomes an AVODO ZOROH...
th rema refers to anything... The mekor is a gemara in Yevomos regarding עמוני ולא עמונית, in other words who can convert. The Gemara In Kidushin uses it in reference to not being able to call a certain kind of person a Mamzer...
Why is it that if you see a person (physically) drowning we won't hesitate to save him from drowning and be מקיים לא תעמוד על דם רעך, but when so many people are drowning spiritually we are supposed to "get over it"?
Could it be that we don't care about spiritual well being as much as physical? Is it any wonder that so many of our youth smell the cynicism and leave the fold (or don't have their heart in Yiddeshkeit)?
I hate to say this. But if this is what Ukrayner Chsidus was about. Let's remember the Tkufa of puste Rebbishe kinder was well on its way the Kiever Maskilim must have had a field day. If even Chsidisher Yidden had veered from the Derech HaToyre. I'm not Machnis Royshi beyn etc but the Divrey Chaim hot gehat vaistoys a shtikl point.
If the yesod hachsidus is preserving the holiness of the rebbes body so that its Mashpia gezint parnuse in naches farn gantzn dor. During the photographed powow when the rebbe Posed for pictures with hillary both grinning ear to ear and yucking it up with her and Bill having a grand ole time was the Dow adversly affected in any way?
The reshimos of R' Moshe Neishlos don't prove anything.so he is a bigger masmid and yoras shomayim than the world assumes,what does it prove? What's the point? Are you aware what the world assumes ? So he is MORE than that.gevaldig!
Iwasonce said "but when so many people are drowning spiritually we are supposed to "get over it"?" Obviously I and all the people don't feel that in New Square there is massive conversion to Christianity.Your personal matter tends to overblow the total situation with the hanhoga. As I told you before your situation is repeated in every Kehila and Chasidus, It is sad but it is a fact. Just a couple of years ago,there was a situation with th with Rosenfeld the founder of the Belzer Bies Malka schools in Isreal.He was a star in Belz, the Ruvs buddy, He raised the funds, he borrowed, he got donations,he built up a network of schools. The economy tanked like now, and he couldnt repay some loans, it got from bad to worse, he was thrown to the dogs, he was disowned by the Belzer Establishment . The Ruv forgot his name veshem Imoi, he used to write mamorim in the Hamachne, all his talent was out of the window. He left to the USA and fried out, leaving behind a big family in Eretz Hakdoshe. He was interviewed by the Mariv, the Ruv comes across very low and vulgar. The bottom line, get on with your life and forget about it, and don't try to save Skver.
Iwasonce "When a Rebbe asks people to follow him blindly AND he insinuates that they do against the Torah..." Following blindly is the problem? or do against the torah? What will you answer to the chazal, Afilu al Yemin Semoil etc..?
anon says" "Obviously I and all the people don't feel that in New Square there is massive conversion to Christianity.Your personal matter tends to overblow the total situation with the hanhoga. "
Obviously, you - and many others - are missing the point. My own story is a footnote that's irrelevant:
1) The benchmark that Chassidus should be judged by is not "massive conversion to Christianity". Chassidus wasnt establishes as a means of keeping kids from going OTD. It's purpose is rather to help adherents live lives that lead them to constantly grow and שעפ חיות from עבודת ה'. Chassidus has become such big business that words like אהבת ה' are basically cliche. Look in NS and you'll see lots of miserable, conflicted people. Not all, but lots. The experiment has failed insofar as serving the purpose of being "authentic".
2) You write that "your situation is repeated in every Kehila and Chasidus". Here again you miss the point. Forget about "my" story, and just look at what's going on. No other chissidus today messes with the chassidim's minds like NS, and nobody asks such total adherence from the נאנטע. Sure, a big crowd doesnt believe anymore and they skip tisch - but even in their own minds they consider themselves "less chasidish".
The dilemma is clear:Follow everything and Plotz, or don't follow and accept that youre inferior.
To all Skver haters, since I am no Skver chosid, and no paid spokesman from the Skverer regime, guys like Kadaffi pay for lobyists to improve their image. So far I did not see a check in the pipeline for me, So, zietz alle gezunt and go on with venting your anti skver rage.
Iwasonce "It's purpose is rather to help adherents live lives that lead them to constantly grow and שעפ חיות from עבודת ה'. " did you find the ideal place on our planet? where only avdus hashem matters,it looks like you keep it as a secret.
Anon says: "What will you answer to the chazal, Afilu al Yemin Semoil etc..?"
Another fabrication from the mind control gang..
1) The Sifri only applies to Beis Din. No single Rav has such a koyach al pi din. מקורות: דרך פקודיך מל"ת טז, אגרא דכלה פ' קרח בד"ה ויקח קרח, יעב"ץ בספר מגדול עוז עלית היראה וכו'
2) The Sifri contradicts the Yerushalmi in Horias 2:. The Yerushalmi says to listen על ימין שהוא ימין ועל שמאל שהיא שמאל.
Many maforshim therefore differentiate between a definite mistake and what seems to be a mistake. others differentiate between wether the dissenting opinion was examined and discarded (then listen), or simply discarded (don't listen).
Anon says: "did you find the ideal place on our planet? where only avdus hashem matters,it looks like you keep it as a secret. "
Not at all. What many strivers have found is that we have to keep slugging alone. But what a place like Skver has done is basically removed the Bechira, because they grow up being taught NOT to use their שכל, since the Rebbe has AL the answers. So they stay קורח מכאן וקורח מכאן.
Contrast that to Satmar, where they believe that anyway בטלה תורת הבעש"ט, so those that strive know that it'll take their own hard work.
to anon who says: "So, zietz alle gezunt and go on with venting your anti skver rage."
I'm sorry that you have such a hard time debating things rationally and you have to fall back on name calling. I'm actually quite composed. It's just a Mitzvah like any other that we're doing, not unlike לא תעמד על דם רעך or השבת אבידה לפי"ד המנ"ח.
It would be of great interest to us out here in Peoria to have more details of the ongoings in NS. Many people have this nostalgic warm notion of the shtetl. If you would provide details of the machinations of the inner circle, it would be a great favor for those incarcerated in Skverantanamo Bay. Out here it's hard to understand the math. One is greater than seven thousand.
Peoria: The "one" who is greater than 7000 or in some cases 70,000 is the one who provides the mystical experiences and gives the special advice and blessings gleaned through arcane practices that only he can perform.. So the bottom line is that the masses who need these extra-terrestrial spiritual experiences that give them an amazing "high" by the tish or by the reading of the kvittel need their"holy man" who in return for offering said services insists on total obedience.I don't see Rabbis Kotler,Finkel,Povarsky,or Elyashiv demanding anything remotely similar. However the trade off is that the brand of haredi judaism they offer is rather dry and unemotional.You want the "rebbe" option then be prepared to pay the price.And it's not just Skver.
I am dissapointed that the Moifes Choytech re the Petira of the Telzer Roshive ZL was not "processed" here vi svolt gipast far aza Mokoim. The Mashmois elsewhere is that such evidence to Offener Ruach HaKoidesh was not seen Miymois HBlsht"v Zya. Btw R S Shapiro N"Y is a voyler yid a Tmimusdiker Talmid Chochom Kvoidoi bimkoimoi munach. But Der Emmes Muz Endlach Arois ! Once and for all.
I would recommend reading the new LeOvdcho Bi'emmes. A bio on the Machnivker Rebbe ZL. Just to get a feel for what Skver once was. ( Only for objective readers I don't want to be Machshil the gullible -those of you that live off of rebbishe memres and remarks. The author treats the NS rebbe very well but a bar daas can see past it) When your done reading it try and imagine the MR (evidently a true embodiment of what a scion of the Skverer dynasty was supposed to be all about ) doing such a photo shoot with Bill amd Hill.
Somehow, I still feel that a clear-minded reading of Chzal with Rishonim is still the best bulwark against getting caught up in the web of fantasies that places like NS have built up.
To a large extent, what convinces otherwise ehrliche people to allow themselves to be mislead from such charlatans, is the fear or awe of their ability to prave mofsim.
The following Ramban clearly states that even if someone has the ability to see into the future, it proves nothing about his authenticity:
(דברים יג ב): "כי יקום בקרבך נביא או חלם חלום" - יקראנו הכתוב "נביא" על פי עצמו, שיאמר הוא "השם דיבר עמי בהקיץ ואני נביאו שלוח לכם שתעשו כן".
וייתכן שירמוז הכתוב למה שהוא אמת, כי בנפשות בקצת האנשים כח נבואיי ידעו בו עתידות, לא ידע האיש מאין יבא בו, אבל יתבודד ותבא בו רוח לאמר "ככה יהיה לעתיד לבא בדבר פלוני". ויקראו לו הפילוסופים "כהין", ולא ידעו סיבת הענין, אך הדבר נתאמת לעיני רואים. אולי הנפש, בהתבודדה, תדבק בשכל הנבדל ותתכוין בו. והאיש הזה יקרא "נביא" כי מתנבא הוא, ועל כן יבוא האות והמופת אשר יאמר אליך.
The Ramban has no relevance to the case at hand. He's talking about a bonafide yoydea asidois we're talking about bubbe maysess. But in principle you are correct. Yedias HaToyre does prevent such nonsense from being accepted. I posted here that R Yeedele ZL- a great Chasidic Talmid Chochom - remarked regarding the Mofsim attributed to his grandfather Hrh"k R Srulche of Vizhniz ZL in the bio written by N E roth that he could write many more volumes on the mofsim that didn't succeed. That doesn't diminish the VR stature since that was not what defined him.
The very premise is absurd. Hgr Chaim Stein Zl was oysek batoyro for close to 9 decades wouldn't merit receiving HaShem Yisborach's Brocho of Oyrech Yomim Biymino but an off the cuff comment by Rabbi Twersky was needed to do the trick
Anon says: "The Ramban has no relevance to the case at hand. He's talking about a bonafide yoydea asidois we're talking about bubbe maysess. "
Of course, and I totally agree with you. My point is אפילו לשיטתם, where they are fed a constant menu of moyfsim that is meant to make them accept that the Rebbe is כאליהו בהר הכרמל, the Ramban can make them (perhaps) think twice.
I harbor to illusion that the brainwashed will suddenly wake up because of the Ramban I quoted. But I think that in the current Matzav there are some serious people who are confused because of (what they are sold as) Mofsim + things like אפילו אומרים לך על ימין שהוא שמאל, which someone mentioned before.
The Ramban can dispel the "worry" of going against a Bal Moyfes. The Mekoros I brought earlier can dispel the notion the Rebbe's can say על ימין שהוא שמאל.
Besides, anyone can see that in יו"ד ס' רמ"ב ס' כ"ב there is an obligation of being מוכח תלמיד לרב, so we obviously can't say he has free reign to say anything he wants.
The ppl that are into a place like NS because of the social value won't change. Those doing it because of מנהג אבותיהם בידיהם won't either. Those that were brainwashed into being דוחה מחשבת מינות, an not get into debates (the truly brainwashed) won't, either...
Who will / might? The real מבקש that thinks he's doing the best for himself and his children.
One mayse in above mentioned LeOvdecho I must share. One of his Chsidim upon seeing him finally in Eretz Yisroel expressed his Agmas Nefesh over the 3 days Bitul Toyre Machmas Tiltul HaDerech. The Machnivker Rebbe ( a giant in Ahavas HaToyre) told him curtly "nee-gey zetz dich shoyn lernen!" I don't think it was the MR's Yetzave the motivated his Chsidim. Er iz BEmmes GIVEHN un gezehn(hot gikent zehn)az di Chsidim zayne zoln oych ZAYN
"Nope. He's only number 3 after Rubashkin and Dwek."
Absolutely no comparison. From the perspective of the "reasonable" not especially anti-semitic Non-Jew, Rubashkin and Dwek are simply the "rotten apples" that every community has.
To their mind, the Rebbe - and the wall of silence and indifference that followed the horrible attack, is a sign for a totally crooked and ugly interpretation of religion.
As the Rambam wrote, איש מפורסם בחסידות doing ugly things magnifies everything.
You can be sure that thousands of Goyim are now thinking "this is what the best of the Jews look like"?
Rabosi! The yismach moshe z”l writes in his time rov minion from klal yisrueal are yereim, what happen to klal yisrual that today 90%+ are not even shomrei shabos! (I’m sure you will not blame skver! for that!) the answer according to the greatest visionary of our time is zionisim and its predessocer haskaloh! the SR z”l writes that if you will take all averios of klal yisruael and put it on one side of the scale and zionisim on the other than zionisim will out weigh it! The cilul hashem and the yeriduh of klal yisruel are not this or that chasideus or litvishe derech (both are more or less falsified) but zionisim and what it encompasses! Rabosi! wake up! a quote from the gemorah or from the rambam or from anywhere else will not help you! Seeing the core of it will! For starters read the v’yoel moshe in perspective (leave your opinion or your rebbes opinion out of it) you may start to understand something!
Assuming that the world was created and continues to exist in the merit of the small percent of people being Moser Nefesh for Shmiras Hatorah, I think it's fair to say that OUR bigger problem is unmasking and removing the false נביאים and מנהיגים amongst us.
This is not my opinion, but Chazal themselves say:
תניא רבי יוסי בן אלישע אומר אם ראית דור שצרות רבות באות עליו צא ובדוק בדייני ישראל שכל פורענות שבאה לעולם לא באה אלא בשביל דייני ישראל שנאמר וכו' לפיכך מביא הקב"ה עליהן ג' פורעניות כנגד ג' עבירות שבידם שנאמר וכו' ואין הקב"ה משרה שכינתו על ישראל עד שיכלו שופטים ושוטרים רעים מישראל שנאמר וכו'
IWasOnce said... Sorry to keep on quoting gemorah and Rambam.....
I would say you’re misquoting, applying selectively quotes not pertaining to the current events, and choosing to ignore it where it applies is heresy maybe.
Time to do a little research and find out why people were affected by Haskala and Zionism.
So easy to blame Zionism for all our ills, allows us not to reflect on our own sins and pass the blame unto others.
RJT "deserves" credit for concocting a theory that has misled hundreds of thousands of Jews and at the same time given them a superiority complex that endangers all of us.
With this he professed his love for klal yisroel while spewing his hate filled diatribe.
Anon says: "I would say you’re misquoting, applying selectively quotes not pertaining to the current events, and choosing to ignore it where it applies is …"
Let's see... Misquoting? I actually copied and pasted everything..
Applying selectively.... Ignoring where it applies to... Please do offer examples... And stick around for the rebuttals, instead of scurrying off when you run out of excuses.
FYI, The Satmarer Rebbe ZTZ"L often quoted the same Gemora in Shabbos that I just did, and while I don't know much about Satmar, I'm old enough to remember that he wasn't ONLY busy with Tzionim.. He fought against ANYTHING he thought was wrong.
Whatever you hold about Tzionim should be irrelevent, just as what you ate for breakfest is irreleven to whether you should buy a new dining room set. Problems need to be dealt with, and not excused away forever.
The Tzionim thing is (like it or lump it) a Machlokis Gedolim. Not that any "Heimishe" Gedolim CH"V condone an anti-religious govt., but rather what the definition of condoning is, etc.
On the other hand, the moral bankruptcy of places like NS coupled with the Mafia tactics of enforcement that are ingrained there
Please remember that I had a front row seat to know that what goes on in NS is not just sanctioned and encouraged, but basically forced from the "big fish". And the "plausible denial" excuse that the Rebbe has used so long, is finally sounding hollow to lots of regular people that bought his stories in the past.
yourquote about false nevium … sorry that does not apply here, there is no nevium
Your quote about false manhigim… you don’t like the rebbe of NS many don’t like the LR and think worse of him and his kehila shtik..than you think of NS You write: that he (SR) wasn't ONLY busy with Tzionim.. He fought against ANYTHING he thought was wrong… of course he did and he build one of the best kehila life in america as a prototype that many copy, just look on the picture hirshel put up of Telshe, 1936 reb chaim stein.. although all good yiden but without any yiddishe tzira (in todays america even the litvishe have a yidishe tzirah..) said that, I’ll also tell you that NS does not have to be ashamed of any kehila in america with their 1000’s of yereim v’shlimum graduated from there!, Those who do not have any kehila life like most ltvishe in america fall away from yidshkeit way way.. more than in the erliche kehilos (with all their faults) the hafkerous there is sky high!!! You just choose not to see it even when you know it!!! BMG of lakewood and the likes who have the liberty to choose whom ‘they see fit’ and the rest they leave behind in the dumbs that not an option by chasidum ! No one will defend NS or BMG, CH, or rabbi kasin or dwek or satmar their atrocites shtik that is and has to be condemed!, but don’t pick and choose and apply your little moral equilancycey pisgumim like it apllies to one sect of yidden and not to others (who you cant aplly it to, because of the hafkereis there has no central office, i.e fltbush, five towns, whasington heights, los angeles, MB, israel etc..) Final but not last, individually and kehlishe atrocites transgrationes by yiden always happened and will happen unfortunately till moshiach will come, and justice will be done! But to compare it to the collective chillul hashem and the gross transgression that is being done in the name of klal yisruel “by the tzionim” the frumme more so than the frei ones, with no protest from the so called yideshe manhigim or klal leaders! THAT WAS NEVER DONE NOT EVEN IN THE TIME OF THE Y’EVUNIM! That’s not a satmer shita! I’ll quote you on that literraly 1000’s of mamurah chazal! … if needed. There is no machlokis h’agodolim on that! ‘TILL KORAH MEBEIN ANEICU’
My quote about false Neviim was on target. As i mentioned earlier, the Ramban explains that a Nuvi can refer to any "miracle worker", and false navi refers to anyone insuniating that Chasidim should be עובר על דברי תורה. Please see my earlier reference to the Ramban.
The NS Rebbe most definitely knew of ongoing, frequent עבירות that he could have easily put a stop to and he chose not to.
anon said: "you don’t like the rebbe of NS many don’t like the LR and think worse of him and his kehila shtik..than you think of NS"
I really shouldn't justify such silliness with an answer....
Being a Manhig isn't a popularity contest. It has nothing to do with how many people love or hate him. It has to do with has actions, and how clearly right or wrong they are.
We unfortunately live in times when Chilul Hashem is rampant, but the Skvere Rebbe stands out for the wide disconnect between the product he "sells" - the heiligsta of the heilgsta, all ahavas yisroel and chumras and being dan lekaf zchus - to his reality.
THAT makes him so dangerous... The unsuspecting Five Towns crowd falls for it.
all chasidum from the time of the rebbe reb ber z"l where saying their rebbe is 'a miracle worker' reb maendel from vtepsk, the aveni nezer and many others adress this false notion! if you was naive to think like that of the current SR, well I'm glad you woke up and smelled the coffee! but in no way it makes him a false nuvi !!
"Those who do not have any kehila life like most ltvishe in america fall away from yidshkeit way way"
I'm sure you've thoroughly researched that slanderous statement of yours.
I'll tell you (as a "Heimshe") what's wrong with the world view you espouse...
Once upon a time Tzadikim added Minhagim and Chumras as a bulwark against bad השפעה, and they stressed the importance of those minhagim and their value in protecting the עיקר.
We are now unfortunately witnessing a wholesale רפיון in the עיקרים, where people still get that fuzzy warm feeling because they're doing the minhagim...
"don’t pick and choose and apply your little moral equilancycey pisgumim"
Again and again you miss the point and you threw into one bucket shaalos about dina demalchiso along with rotten individuals on the one-side and moral bankruptcy and mafia tactics of their enforcement by a person that multitudes come to for a "direct connection" to Hashem...
" kehlishe atrocites transgrationes by yiden always happened"
Skver has no Kehilla. It ONLY has a Rebbe. As the Takonos clearly state, and as any insider knows. Nobody does ANYTHING without the Rebbe. There were never any Kehilla elections.
And of couse there were always kehilishe atrocities... And so there were murders and Chilul Shabbos... So will you next Rebbe be a Mechalil Shabbos?
"THAT WAS NEVER DONE NOT EVEN IN THE TIME OF THE Y’EVUNIM!"
Typical of someone who can't win an argument... Just scream louder.
The Satmarer can brew up as many stories as they want... The fact remains that טשיבענע רב, חזון איש, סטייפלער did believe in going to בחירות. They had a different definition of התבדלות מרשעים than the Satmarer Rebbe Ztza"l.
They were all Kedoshim, as was the LR. Too bad. The skvere shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath. He's a fraud an an actor.
I feel your pain you got duped in believing in something that is not! ha ha that happened to many chasidum for the last 100+ years in many circumstances with dire consequences.. and thats why great manhigim warned chasidum not to thing that their rebbe is above the torah!(although square didnt listen..) maybe the current SR is not fit to be a rebbe! but most skevere self imposed their imprisonment! and they do have a choice.. (like u) said that u know as well as I that there is a lot of torah and yirah in square which will prevail the current ho hah! with or without their leader if u dont like it get out of there, when you find a better way join it! but dont give up!
IWasOnce said... .. So will you next Rebbe be a Mechalil Shabbos?
again a naive question, learn 'heichel habrucha' from the hileger kemarner.. he warned 100 years ago that indeed will have rebbes mechalal shabos c"v among other averios! my advise choose your rebbe very carefully! and dont force "your" chosen rebbes children on "your" children!(they way skver and others do)
IWasOnce said... Typical of someone who can't win an argument... Just scream louder You haven’t open your eyes yet (u just got out of skver,remember?) none of this gedolim you mentioned belived otherwise than I stated, the machloka was how to address this issue of ‘frum zionisim’ some belived in fighting them from in and some from out! But no one supported even an inch of zionisim! By the way besides going to the ‘bechirous’ do you know anything more of these gedolims shita! Did they write it somewhere I can read/learn it! Or are you just name dropping, am I discussing you as an grown-up or yinkele who needs to learn a little?
Those who disagreed with the SR did not say that the chillul HaShem of the zionists should be met with apathy. We have a responsobility to announce to the world and ourselves that Zionism is not Judaism and a jew is defined by the Torah. Going to bechiros to try and save what we can from the thugs who appropriated the name Yisroel for themselves and steal our money and religion is not, in any way, condoning their existence or actions. All Hungarian Rabbonim joined the government - sponsored congress in 1862(? I may have that wrong, correct me) to save Judaism from the Neologs, even though they had to sit together with them.
According to the influential French philosopher Louis Althusser, organizations operate (and keep its members in line) by a combination of what he calls the Repressive State Apparatus, which is the use of force, e.g. police, army, etc., and the Ideological State Apparatus, which is the method by which ideology is propagated, e.g. religion, media, family, education, etc. (Education is highest on the ISA ladder.) Hasidism utilizes both these apparatuses efficiently. Although they do not have an official police force beating people who step out of line, the mission of the RSA is to scare people into behaving, and Hasidism has built in several powerful factors to effectively do this job.
Chief among these is the emphasis on shidduchim. Marriage, or bayis ne’eman b’yisroel, the building of a Jewish home, is a crucial objective in Orthodox Judaism. Hasidism—a social movement at its base— simply adds a social status part to it, creating, in effect, the enormous dual pressure of firstly, finding a marriage partner for each child in order to accomplish the bayis ne’eman b’yisroel objective, and secondly, achieving a place in society by doing a “quality” shidduch. The behaviors of father, mother, children and even extended family are observed and noted for years by an organic panopticon-style community, and each eccentricity or out-of-the-box act by anyone in the family has the potential to destroy the family’s future shidduch chances. It may be difficult for an outsider to grasp the efficacy of the “shidduch RSA” to keep people in line, but anyone in a Hasidic community understands it innately. (The shidduch RSA is not unique to Hasidism; many Muslim and Hindu communities abide by a similar code.)
Also part of the Hasidic RSA are its schools’ student selection policies. This is actually a more recent innovation, apparently responding to a slight decrease in the shidduch RSA’s effectiveness. Basically, institutions refuse to accept students whose parents don’t dress or act in the manner approved by their Board. And since Hasidim are limited to specific schools, they may—if they do not behave properly—find themselves without a school for their children. כרםצ hasidismandlit.blogspot
What remains is the paradox. If Rabbi Twersky is as great as they believe how can such Chiluley Shem Shomayim and Retzicha result from such a leader. Mgalgelin Zchus A"YZakay Mgalglin Choyv A"Y Chayov. The Chilul HaShem with FBI involvement is not new to Rabbi Twersky. I don't get this digression into the zionism issue. We're discussing a poser a Letz. Not an Ernster Mentch. It has nothing to do with Shitos. He's not capable of any emunos vdeyos. According to his believers he's a masmid an erlicherr nor " zeyer baholtn". So he's greater than his father ZL who was not as successful in hiding his greatness...
Grand Rabbi Twersky is not a Novi Sheker. He doesn't even try. I know a sincere Yungerman who left YU as a Bochur a Mvakesh. He told me he went to the Grand Rabbi since he's a rebbe and has Ruh"k. He asked which yeshiva to attend. I forgot- he didn't know money has to change hands. The GR smiled and shrugged him off " adunno"( in english) he said "but you're the Rebbe". The GR smiled and ended the audience. Any decent person with a gefil for a Yid would ask this obviously confused kid something about himself and try to guid him. Bfrat a man who devotes his life to Yidden. But I guess the "piercing blue eyes"( that Rabbi Frand was smitten by) were looking at the the sign-in list at the names of the well heeled waiting outside. ("Hey kid can't you see I'm working here"). The GR has a constantly updated list of those waiting. You sign in and he invaryably calls in the wealthy ahead of everyone else. If you go there to watch you'll be astounded. Many don't realize he calls all the shots and fight with the Gabboim who remain dutifuly mum. Take a look at the eldery people who shlep in by bus waiting for hours. If all publicity is good publicity he has one accomplishment. -after AP picked up the "fiery dispute"(press never got tired of corny pun)story. Having more global media coverage than Lubavit ch
I'll add a little "something" from personal experience. After personally witnessing unbelievable indifference to Halacha AND secular law, I alerted the Rebbe many times. At first, he seemed genuinely concerned.... but months passed and nothing changed.
So I came back several more times... and his comments were something to the effect that everybody complains about everybody and he "hears nothing".
Then suddenly, when I tried coming again, guess who was "tailing" me? Shia the gabbie was following after me and warning me in no uncertain terms "not to ay anything".
Question: Shia never heard anything from me - how did he know what i was talking about?
Another Question: Wouldn't anybody with one iota of Yiras Shomayim WANT to know what's wrong, so that he could correct it? (In the end, many of those guys ended up sitting in jail!!)
Draw your own conclusions.
Nice footnote: I told Shia, something like "If you would only know what's going on and what they're doing to me for talking about it...."
Shia answered... And what do you think they're doing to me?"
Stay far, far away... They're rotten all the way through! So I came back again, demanding the right to resign.
Reminds me of a story of some Rabbi in the Bronx who was rumored to have Ruach Hakodesh.
Then they find out that he had installed a hidden mike at his Gabbie's station, so he knew everything the supplicant told the Gabbie. Some Ruach Hakodesh!
I do however in all seriousness feel anyone with an axe to grind against Belz should take great care not to provide self-identifyng info. Its impossible to tell how far he's personally lept in his Great Leap Forward plan.(The great Mao of the Oilom haChasidus). As some of you know the Belzer used to share a Chotzer with a leading Marbitz Toire. When waiting for a Motze Shabbos Shiur I walked across to check out his set up. In Belz they were all by Shalshds in Agripas. The place was empty and unlocked. I walked into his room and remember seeing brass-colored 'coins' with some type of Belzer oriented inscriptions and images on them. I then noticed a cabinet that looked odd. I opened it. It was a sink. Sitting there was a bar of perfumed palm soap! I would make Shvua Dorayse if it were permitted. This was BMoy eynay. VDay Lmeyvin.
129 comments:
in the good old glory days of belz, a small tiny hut village with muddy swampy dirt roads, they did not need to be comunist style control, the chasiddim out of love for their rebbi. in belz of today its not as much as the rebbi controls, but he has extreme people who control the mind set how things should be done.
in skver, how does the rebbi get his information? he's surrounded by 7 8 people who give over to the rebbi, the give bu leave out, they give but add, they give but are one sided, and even when the rebbi will question him, he'll still work with agenda, the skver rebbi himself changed a lot, the skver rebbi of 2010 is noy at all the same skver rebbi of 1980, and fault for this is the people around him. ever thought into it why avigdor estreicher is not being listen to? shaya unger is there to explain thing to the rebbi.
b"h in bobov this is so far, the bobov rebbi never had to give out takunes, he was (and is not) a contol freak. may all learn from the nicest chassidus of bobov how to be a manhig.
If they could demonstrate a greater
success rate with the youth than other Kreizn - hecherashti.
But close to 100 kids otd over a 2 year period
in a community of 7000 is abysmal. Its an insular community there's no excuse
This going kop in vant will never end. The lunacy of revering a
Takono that doesn't work but must be obeyed since
Der Tuhtte/Hrhk's rootzn was such is all they know.
Rabbi Twerski should end the secrecy come out of his room.
Learn and Daven with the Oylom be approachable in BaisMedresh.
The problem is he can't lead that way. He's too small a man.
Once you take away the mistique there's nothing left.
Observing his holoch yelech won't inspire anyone.
And to start having to put on a show and
Mentshlzach ois is too hard at age 70.
He's had it great for almost 4 decades living it up behind the window shades.
His father was approachable in many ways. Rebitzin
Tranna knew her son could only make if access to the
Peasantry was controlled. All interaction had to be limited.
His appearances all staged. This stifling atmosphere is confused by the Skverer Oylom with Avirre DKedushe.
But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney.
They believe that this rebbe is greater than the Balsht"v ZL Byomov
If the rank and file think that this rebbe passes for what's considered an
Ish Kodosh imagine what their conception of the Balsht"v must be.
Der grester misnaged bishaytoy volt zach dos nisht getroyt !
Rabbi Twerski should end the secrecy come out of his room.
Learn and Daven with the Oylom be approachable in BaisMedresh.
The problem is he can't lead that way. He's too small a man.
Once you take away the mistique there's nothing left.
Observing his holoch yelech won't inspire anyone.
And to start having to put on a show and
Mentshlzach ois is too hard at age 70.
He's had it great for almost 4 decades living it up behind the window shades.
You can switch Twerski to Rokeach
Did anyone else notice the contradiction? Shalom and Mashma'as. You can have either of them but not both.
Bobov (means beans in Russian, by the way).
You are right-BZ Bobov is not a control freak-he is just a freak.
These takunes are a regular Communist control stuff. If somebody does not like it, he should not live there. If you were born there-...well i guess tough luck :(
Did anyone else notice the contradiction? Shalom and Mashma'as. You can have either of them but not both."
Not so. If there's mashmaas there's sholom.
If there's no mashmaas the sholom is disrupted.
You will need to be immolated to restore sholom to the holy
Shikun. I can hear Al Sharpton chanting "No mashmaas No Peace!"
Anon
"But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney."
there are 100's of people that came to skver and became full fledge chasidim from his Hioyrirus. You make a point that maybe the OTD is connected to the stringent way of life of that village.But where is the Rebbe in to the picture.Most of the takunas are not rebbe related, he his the attorney general to enforce it.
So would you recommend that he should loosen up, stop the 1 gender sidewalks? 82 day mikva?
Russian Chusid
Yidishkiet for the masses in charidie circles can only be enforced thru some kind of ironclad hanhuge, if not we will end up MO
Anon
"This going kop in vant will never end"
His fathers claim to fame is his irrational stubbornness, eventualy he was successful, he built up the impossible, Delivered a Russian chasidus to Hungarians, 99% of them never knew that Skver exist and now their are 3rd generation Chernobler chasidim, that don't know that Galanta, Serdeyheli existed..
He brought life to a dead breed.
"But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney."
there are 100's of people that came to skver and became full fledge chasidim from his Hioyrirus. "
I guess you're right. Evidently true Hisoyrerus can come from baloney..
avigdor estreicher is not being listen to? shaya unger is there to explain thing to the rebbi.
Inedible cookies versus Shop Rite mayonnaise repackaged with the Skvere hechsher or is this a different Unger? I know Avigdor Ostreicher is indeed the baker.
not even under the worst communist government was there control over people like this.
this is revolting and a threat to American sovereignty. Twersky should be arrested for treason.
Anon
"I guess you're right. Evidently true Hisoyrerus can come from baloney.."
Elokim Yireh Lelievov
anon 5.06
Most of the takunas are not rebbe related, he his the attorney general to enforce it.
BUDDY, OIB S'SHTINKT, SHTINKED FIN DER KOP
In Stalins time, when every Russian was in jail, everybody said it is not his fault either..
You can not enforce your minhogim or chasidus on anybody-period.This is really crazy!!!!
Hirshel
I realize that you are in to giving a platform for idiots that want to dump their vomit on the Lubavicher Rebbe, Guys like state of mind are given free reign to insult with no basis. I don't think any charidie site would pass such a piece.
Russian Chusid
Are you talking as a frum Jew? or as a westernized secular liberal person?
If you are frum the you should realize that Yiddishkiet needs to be enfoced for the masses.
Anon
"Learn and Daven with the Oylom be approachable in BaisMedresh. "
He is quiet approachable by kvitlech. There is no Rebbe that spent so many hours listening to yiddishe kinder, showing them empathy, he gives them the feeling that he feels your pain.You could say that he is baloney,I can not argue with that, since Elokim Yireh Lelievov. Why does he have to be approachable on your terms?
"But real Hisoyrirus can only come from emmes not from baloney."
there are 100's of people that came to skver and became full fledged chasidim from his Hioyrirus"
I see you're a sincere Skverer.
You need to learn your tfise in yiddishkeit is warped
Its not your fault its your leaders
Becoming a 'full fledged" chosid is not 'real Hisoyrerus'.
That's joining a party. The koyach hasheker can do that.
To be Meoyrer to Davnen Lernen Yiras Chet that's where Emmes is crucial.
Hoodwinking existing ehrliche yidden to believe in him is possible.
To be meoyrer the local kids to yiras shomayim is not.
I remember in the dormitory in yeshiva a Skverer Bocher reading the Post with his gartl on.
The Deyzher Ruv ZL desription of Riminev or the Kol Aryeh's toldos chayim where his Kesher with Tzanz is desribed should be more than enough to cure any yelidey Ungarn of this
Skverer stupidity. You can see what the Hungarian
Gedolim were looking for in Chasidus.
Not this junk of protecting the rebbes 'holy' body so he will be
Mashpia Gezint Parnuse in Naches.
Your encouraged not to be oysek in growing but to remain a worker drone in service of the noblility.
I can only imagine mi yegalle offor meyeynecho Shinyever Ruv ZL !
Hirshel
If you are still a chosid of the Lubavicher Rebbe, and you plan to visit his Ohel, then do a little Cheshbon haNefesh,
If you would run a site that is smearing your fathers name on a daily basis...
Plz think for a second,
Anon
"To be Meoyrer to Davnen Lernen Yiras Chet that's where Emmes is crucial. "
their is no question in my mind that the Skverer Rebbe is meoyrer hundreds of bucherim to Teshuva and to Hasmode Betorah,
I believe that by his saying Kiel Mistater and his Yetzave is bringing hundreds of yidden to teshuva. If you think different theen you dont know skver.
Again I can not vouch if the rebbe is genuine, since Elokim Yireh Lelievov. I heard from many people that visited for shabosim in Skver say, that they felt elated for the holy atmosphere of a simple shabos.
I am no Skverer Chusid in no shape or form , but I believe your extreme absolute hatred of a place like Skver is overboard.
showing them empathy, he gives them the feeling that he feels your pain.You could say that he is baloney,I can not argue with that, since Elokim Yireh Lelievov. Why does he have to be approachable on your terms?"
This is considered gor a hoyche madrego in the Sifrey Hachsidus.
His Hisnahagus up until his coronation
did not show promise of such hasogos.
The Rambam is already mvarrer the concept of
Muchzik Bachsidus. So its nire le'inayim. Shoyn eynmol !
A gornisht mit nisht. Btw hasmodo was a big item in skver.
This guy was known kol yomov to go leydig.
How does takone alef square (excuse the pun) with the mishne in pirkei ovois, v'al tehi don yechidi she'ein don yechidi elo echod? While other chasidus impose a similar rule in practice, spelling it out like this is breathtaking arrogance and explains why they are in the rut they're in.
It is also at odds with what the rebbe's lawyer said that he lacks the power to compel anyone to follow his rules. See here
Why does he have to be approachable on your terms?"
Just to humanize him. (umensh vos er iz..)
I don't believe interaction with him will add one iota of Yiras HaShem.
But by removing all the practices that are intended to deify him one hopes the youth will turn their attention to the Real Thing !
ANON 6:23
The attacks on other Gutteh Yidden are pretty disgusting too...
Anon
"This guy was known kol yomov to go leydig."
if you believe his father was a semi somebody, Why do you think he did not pass him on for his BIL.
The last year he was next to him by the kvitlech....
Reb Moshe Unger of New Square write in his Reshimos, that RYY said in three points the world has a mistake in their assumption of my son.
that he is a much bigger yiras shomaim then they assume,
That he is much bigger masmid then they assume,
that he is a much bigger pikech then they assume.
Obviously Reb Moshe is lying, since you have too many eyewitness to the contrary.
Hirshel
I am happy at least that you know right from wrong, So the question is bigger, why have a platform to smear your former Rebbe(I cant believe that you still are a chabad chosid)and other gedolim too?
Anon
"The Rambam is already mvarrer the concept of
Muchzik Bachsidus"
please give me the Marie Mokem in the sefer haYad, I will check if he is up to par with the rambams guidelines.
Disclaimer,I am no Skverer Chusid in no shape or form , but I believe your extreme absolute hatred of a place like Skver is overboard.
Anon
"I don't believe interaction with him will add one iota of Yiras HaShem."
Forget about Yiras shomaim, is giving a listening ear for a jew is not a gemach? is that mitzva chopped liver?
Hirshel
I realize that you have a censor button when the essence of your blog is questioned
Al Kvodi lo Muchisem (on the Rebbe and other Guteh Yidden their is no censor) but Al Kvod Hablogmiester Muchisem(then there is a strong censor)
Many are concerned for the kuvod of the Rebbe. They should be concerned about the rights of the the followers. Same in Belz, people are living in terror. Free Belz, Free Skvere. Bobov is dead. Any similarities with Reb Shlome's regime is coincidental. It's hard to gauge which regime is worse.
Jingle Belz
"They should be concerned about the rights of the the followers."
Yiddishkiet is no democracy, their are no rights in yidiskiet, Torah or no Torah
Disclaimer,I am no Skverer Chusid in no shape or form , but I believe your extreme absolute hatred of a place like Skver is overboard."
You are a Skverer. That you have to disguise yourself should give you pause.
Your Rebbe caused the greatest Chilul Hashem ever Al admas America. He was goyrem ver veys vifl sinas yisrol. This affects all of us.
Especially frumer yidden. If we want to identify and look for eitzes to minimize this even negef's effect on us. We are not haters.
We don't have to tolerate a murderous baal geyeh who puts all erliche yidden at risk.
You may have been taught to take abuse from him.
I wasn't. He has a din rodef if he continues his derech resha.
The "place" Skver is full of eydelle yidden.
Its Rabbi Twersky who's the issue. You people always try to associate him with the piety and generosity of the Toyshvim.
In other places the its Chasidim who bask in the rebbe's Gadless...
Even though the majority of Yidden are not under the control of Rokeach and Twersky, they are stll fine erliche yidden. If freedom is not allowed and the oilam has to be coerced into being Hareidi to prevent them from becoming MO, that means the system has no value. Not Torah, the artificial system that has arisen over the last 250 years. As time marches on these groups will disappear because people want be free. Free Belz - Free Skvere.
r is no question in my mind that the Skverer Rebbe is meoyrer hundreds of bucherim to Teshuva and to Hasmode Betorah,
I believe that by his saying Kiel Mistater and his Yetzave is bringing hundreds of yidden to teshuva"
To take an erliche bochur and red him ayn your the source of his inspiration is so pachim ktanim
The Minchas Eluzor ZL didn't let Kvartin finish singing Tiyher. Er fargint eym nisht zahne treyrn.
If your rebbe can kvitshe and be Meoyrer an existing ehrliche bochur means er halt chotsh vu kvartin hot gehaltn.
We are talking the korrev to 100 avkgefallene nebach in 2 years who grew up choysim Btsiloy.
Their Chinuch and every detail scrutinized by him
They had his Yetzaveh playing in their heads. Redst azoy narish!
I'm reminded The imrei chaim MVizhnitz ZL after the war was told Vienna is a city of
Ovrim VShuvim. He said ovrim zey ich shuvim zey ich nisht..
To the lubavitcher whiners. Here's my understanding.
Every argument has its answer. Hirshl expects you guys to pummel the opposition
Not stifle the debate. I see how easy some of these guys can be desroyed.
I won't do it since I'm one of them not you. But look at the
Skverer. They should be hanging their heads in shame
And they keep on slugging. Its you that are letting Hirshl down not the reverse
Re:Deleting my comment by the newly arrived Czenzur in Petterburg
I am more than willing to answer any of your criticisms on a factual basis as long as it doesn't contain the words "vomit" or "idiot." How can you allow all these comments on Twerskis,Rokeachs,and Halberstams,and somehow immunize yourself against any criticism of Lubavitch?If those are the groundrules,why should anyone with a minimum of intelligence take anything you say seriously?Who was "matir" the blood of the greatest Hassidishe Rebbes with thousands of followers?You print stuff about the Belzer Rebbes "weight problem?" That's OK for a chassidishe yungerman to print?Only Lubavitch has something to offer the world-not Skver,Belz,or Bobov? And Lubavitch never did anything wrong? Really?It's ok to write "ongefressener Tzureh"[anon.5:24] about the Belzer Rov but if I mention the name "Schneerson" you call in the Czenzur?Hayitochein?
כ' המחבר ביו"ד סי' רמ"ג ס"ג דתלמיד חכם המזלזל במצוות ואין בו יראת שמים הרי הוא כקל שבציבור. והסביר הברכ"י בשיורי ברכה שם דהיינו "שיש בידו עון חילול ה' שהוא חמור מאוד, ועוד שההמון למדין ממנו דילפינן מקלקלתא והוא חוטא ומחטיא ונשא הצעי"ר עליו את כל עונותיהם". עוד הביא הברכ"י שם בשם הרב זקן אהרן סי' ל"ב דכל תלמיד חכם שיש בידו חילול ה' אסור לשמוע דברי תורה מפיו ולסמוך על הוראתו ע"כ.
Anon
"Its you that are letting Hirshl down not the reverse"
Whom are you accusing exactly? I am not getting it.
I duuno much about Belz... or Bubov... or Lubavitch.
But, as a former Skvere "Askin" who left the fold over a dozen years ago because of all the corruption, deceit, arrogance and mind control I can say from PERSONAL experience that the Skvere has not one iota of Yiras Shomayim. I'm surprised that he lasted as long as he did.
I did NOT live in the "heilege shtetel", but the expectation was still exactly the same as stated in the Takonos: The Rebbi's will is the ONLY thing that counted. Askanim were expected to do anything and exverything that enhanced the agenda. Legality, Halacha, Chinuch and Haskafa were totally irrelevant.
When I dared to say "lets go ask a Rov" I was blacklisted and terrorized.
But here's the kicker that few people know about Skver: In my case and maby others WE WERE FORCED TO STAY!
That's right, as long as you were needed you HAD to stay. My begging that I wanted to leave didn't let it happen.
770 SOM:
you are correct, Sir. Those will go as well. The only thing I am guilty of here is not paying close enough attention, especially Yiddish with English letters.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention
Iwasonce
If you bring this as a source against the skverer,
Where did you see a Zilzul Bemitzvas by the Skeverer, besides davening after Zman Tefila?
If you are getting halachic technical, then get me a source on the issur of chilul hashem? According to the Rambam, it means a sin in front of 10 Jews. I the little nobody is searching for halachic source, that bad PR in front of the goyish world, has the halchic term of Chilul Hashem, maybe you will find some mussar seforim as the Kav Hayosher etc..but please find halacha.Obviously I agree,it is no kidush hashem.
Getting back to the Rottenberg Saga, I don't see where the deeds of a boy Spitzer gets related to the Skverer Rebbe, why ? because he is enforcing a Tekona of his village? Vechi Yovad Heolom Mipnie Hashotim. Is Rav Elye Ber Vachtfogel responsible for the big chilul hashem of his former Right hand Libel Trooper. Who used the power of rightwing halacha to trap a Eishes Ish? This whole organization and its tactic was founded by rav Wachtfogel to fight RCA and Druckman.
I am not accusing Rav Wachtfogel here, but it is a important analogy, that by that case the world did not put Wachtfogel to dry.
Iwasonce
thanks for being honest about being a former Skverer,
You have issues with Skver,Maybe you were corrupted and you were caught redhanded, I never met a Machloke that is one sided.
Every Kehila has people that deserted them for askunas issue, I hope you learned your lesson and you are no askan for a Rebbe or Kehila.Even the Edeler Yid Reb Shloma Bobover had to get rid of 1 his biggest Askonim and Fund raiser. That guy cursed him and his rebetzin on every street corner in BP.
Yesterday in the morning someone was picked up by police in 5 towns. The Eish Kodesh Kehila is accusing their treasurer with stealing funds.
There is no question in my mind that he is now a enemy of Rav Wienberg, he and his family probably have a long list of Wienberg abuses.
It is interesting that it was not brought 1st to a bies din.
Iwasonce
"In my case and maby others WE WERE FORCED TO STAY!"
if you did not live in his village how can he force?
He sends black helicopters and UFO's to terrorize you in Brooklyn?
Hirshel
I am very happy that you are adding to your editorial board a "delete"
button.
Stateofmind
Do you belong to a org, that fights for world equality "
nobody should dare feel superior to others, Gevaldig Gevaldig
I don't know of 100 boys that fell out, and I'm a Skverer I'm wondering where this number comes from it has no ground at all, you can check it yourself.
Anon wrote:
"If you are getting halachic technical, then get me a source on the issur of chilul hashem? According to the Rambam, it means a sin in front of 10 Jews. I the little nobody is searching for halachic source, that bad PR in front of the goyish world, has the halchic term of Chilul Hashem, maybe you will find some mussar seforim as the Kav Hayosher etc..but please find halacha.Obviously I agree,it is no kidush hashem."
Actually, the Rambam in פרק ה' הלכה יג of הלכות יסודי התורה writes:
ויש דברים אחרים שהן בכלל חילול השם. והוא שיעשה אותם אדם גדול בתורה ומפורסם בחסידות דברים שהבריות מרננים אחריו בשבילם. ואע''פ שאינן עבירות הרי זה חילל את השם כגון
Is the Rambam some "mussar sefer"?
We live in such unbelievable times! Things that any half sensible person would be repulsed by are taken in stride.
Do you know that OVER 50 newspapers reported the Rottenberg story?
Iwasonce
"In my case and maby others WE WERE FORCED TO STAY!"
if you did not live in his village how can he force?
He sends black helicopters and UFO's to terrorize you in Brooklyn?
Good question.
I was made to understand in no uncertain terms that if I leave my Askunis I would be ostracized by all. Leaving the job meant leaving the whole support system that a person has, Shul, friends, etc.
I did it anyway, and it took years to rebuild.
They know the power of "Chevra" and use it to the fullest advantage.
In their brainwashed minds... leaving meant a serious פגם in Emunas Tzidikim. Sharing any info about what went on made me a Rodef... Not simple..
Anon writes:
"You have issues with Skver,Maybe you were corrupted and you were caught redhanded, I never met a Machloke that is one sided."
Typical Skvere brainwashing..
Maybe I WASN'T corrupted... and maybe I personally went to the heilega Rebbe and told him about the corruption again and again, until Shia Gabba pulled me away and warned me, and then "mysteriously" my tires were slashed...
We all know that Skver never does such things... and we know that the College Program scandal was just a bunch of anti-semites out to get all Yiden...
Where do you get THAT Koolaid?
anon says:
"I never met a Machloke that is one sided."
Sure, there are two sides to any story. So you're saying that in every case both sides are a little right and a little wrong?
anon says:
" I don't see where the deeds of a boy Spitzer gets related to the Skverer Rebbe"
You don't see it, because you don't WANT to see it.
כל שיש בידו למחות ואינו מוחה נתפס על אותו עון.
The Spitzer boy could have been harassed and expelled from Yeshiva in a blink of an eye if the Heilige Rebbe just said one word, just like numerous Yingeleit were harassed for the "aveira" of not making a Shulem Zucher at the heilege tisch...
על כבודי לא מחיתם ועל כבוד בשר ודם מחיתם.
Where is the Rebbe when it comes to be Moche on חילול ה'????
Iwasonce
I am not saying that Skverer Rebbe is against enforcing that he is one and only supreme leader of New Square, It is the offical dogma of that village as you see in the paper that Tzig posted.
But that does not make him a accomplice in the fire on Rottenberg, and not in the Chilul Hashem that it caused.
Iwasonce
"Where is the Rebbe when it comes to be Moche on חילול ה'????"
didnt he say something?
you should off send him a transcript of your style Mechoye
Iwasonce
"Sure, there are two sides to any story. So you're saying that in every case both sides are a little right and a little wrong?"
yes, I believe that in most cases there are some gray areas,
Reb Moshe Unger of New Square write in his Reshimos, that RYY said in three points the world has a mistake in their assumption of my son.
that he is a much bigger yiras shomaim then they assume,
That he is much bigger masmid then they assume,
that he is a much bigger pikech then they assume.
Obviously Reb Moshe is lying, since you have too many eyewitness to the contrary."
Klum av meyid al bnoy applies to Moyshe Rabbeynu as well.
If you have a tzadik mfursom ( r arele belzer for exmpl) and you quote his father -mheche teyse.
But to build yesh meayin? Bifrat to build up a man that's a gvar alimnik vos yidden laydn fun em yorn lang. The biggest tzadik is also a bosor vodom.
This is once again an example of Skverer mutant emunas tzadikim.
The Shach himself said by a din toyra he saw the issue a certain way due to a negiye.
Infallability is believed by millions of notzrim not lehavdil yidden.
I'll tell you a sod fun cheder. The Brisker Rov wrote a Niflediker Haskomo for R leizer Shach ZL.
Mamash Hafloges. The BR s children had chiluke deyos with R leizer re bchiros tziyonus etc. So they said yeder mench muz doch mach chotsh ein toyus in lebn. Der haskomo iz geven dem tatns toyus!
Iwasonce
"Typical Skvere brainwashing.."
Oi bin ich a skverer, Oi bin ich a Skverer...
I am no Skverer, never was, never will be one, since I am not sure that Skverer Rebbe or for the same reason all other Tzadikie hadoir are for real.
But at the same token I am not sure that he is the Oicher Yisroel.
So why invest my 5 dollar pidyon nefesh in something that I am not definite.
Obviously you were gullible and were absolute sure that the Skverer is the real McCoy so you got affiliated to the tune of becoming a askan.
Liten to my advice and you will not get burned, take everything with a grain of salt, a little cynicism and skepticism is good in life, and don't forget to put in your will for you kids and generations to come,
Never ever be a askun for these tribes, they are in it for them self, even when they are real Tzadikim.It is never a bigger mitzva then Tekias Shofar, that you can be a innocent bystander and just listen.
Anon
"The Shach himself said by a din toyra he saw the issue a certain way due to a negiye."
I saw that Reb Mottel Zilber quoting a sefer that by chasidim we believe there were no yeridas hadorois, so could be that the holy Rebbe RYY was above and beyond Negias Ishis. I can not vouch anything, but you have to respect others that take that route.
Anon
"Der haskomo iz geven dem tatns toyus!"
did the sons say it ? or the einikel AJ?
It is very hard to believe it,since if the BR made 1 mistake then maybe I can add on 2 or 3 mistakes more...but if you say you heard it from them....then I am forced to believe you
Anon
"Infallability is believed by millions of notzrim not lehavdil yidden."
ask a ungarischer yid, if the CS was infallible??????
Ask a Satmarer chusid (Bnie Yoel) if the Satmar Ruv was infallible?
Ask a Klausenburger/Bobiover if the Sanzer Ruv was infallible?
in my yiddiskiet where I reside and hangout every 2nd Tzadik is infallible?
Did you see in one Artscroll biography some minor negative aspect of their total lifetime?
Nada Zilch
so could be that the holy Rebbe RYY was above and beyond Negias Ishis. I can not vouch anything, but you have to respect others that take that route."
So now its legit to believe R YY ZY"a was greater than the Shach?!!!
Hirshel
After getting this Takunos, work on the mother of all Takunas, of Chatzar Hakodesh Ger
the einikel AJ?
It is very hard to believe it,since if the BR made 1 mistake then maybe I can add on 2 or 3 "
What's this AJ? He's more talmmid chochom lamdn baal svore Erlicher Yid marbitz Toyre than you have hasogos in.
From the Yechidey hador that are mkayem loy soguru mipney ish and the Gvirim limiyneyhem.
Annon wrote:
"I am not saying that Skverer Rebbe is against enforcing that he is one and only supreme leader of New Square, It is the offical dogma of that village as you see in the paper that Tzig posted."
I believe that THIS is the real (and rarely mentioned) crux of the problem. "Official dogma that runs counter to Torah is בטל ומבוטל.
Here are two tidbits from the Shaarei Teshuva Shar Gimal, that would seem to say that Skver style dogma is a very, very serious NoNo:
ס. ובאחיכם בני ישראל איש באחיו לא תרדה בו בפרך (ויקרא כה). לא ישתעבד אדם בחביריו. ואם אימתו עליהם או שהם בושים להחל דברו. לא יצוה אותם לעשות קטנה או גדולה. אלא לרצונם ותועלתם. ואפילו להחם צפחת מים או לצאת בשליחות אל רחוב העיר לקנות עד ככר לחם. אבל אדם שאינו נוהג כשורה מותר לצוותו לכל אשר יחפוץ:
And a second one:
ס. ובאחיכם בני ישראל איש באחיו לא תרדה בו בפרך (ויקרא כה). לא ישתעבד אדם בחביריו. ואם אימתו עליהם או שהם בושים להחל דברו. לא יצוה אותם לעשות קטנה או גדולה. אלא לרצונם ותועלתם. ואפילו להחם צפחת מים או לצאת בשליחות אל רחוב העיר לקנות עד ככר לחם. אבל אדם שאינו נוהג כשורה מותר לצוותו לכל אשר יחפוץ:
קסב. וכת הנותנים חתיתם בארץ החיים
דבר עליהם יחזקאל עליו השלום (יחזקאל לב), אשר נתנו חתיתם בארץ החיים וגו' ותהי עונותם על עצמותם.למדנו מזה כי לא יכפר עליהם המות. אכן עד עולם עונותם על עצמותם. ואמרו רבותינו זכרונם לברכה המינין והאפיקורסין, ושכפרו בתחיית המתים, שפירשו מדרכי צבור, ושנתנו חתיתם בארץ החיים כגון הפרנסים המטילים אימה יתירה על הצבור שלא לשם שמים, ושחטאו ושהחטיאו את הרבים כגון ירבעם בן נבט וחביריו - יורדין לגיהנם ונידונין בה לדורי דורות. שנאמר (ישעיה סו) ויצאו וראו בפגרי האנשים הפושעים בי כי תולעתם לא תמות וגו':
קסג. ועונש הנותנים חתיתם בארץ חיים מחמשה הפנים. השנים מצד עצמו והשלשה מצד העם:
השניים שהם מצד עצמו
האחד - כי האנוש רמה ותולעה, וכן נקרא גם עוד בחיים חיותו. ולא דיו שלא ישח ולא ישפל. כי ישתרר גם השתרר שלא לשם שמים. וגם במחשבת הגאוה מבלי השתרר נפסד האדם. שנאמר (משליטו) תועבת ה' כל גבה לב:
קסד. והשני - כי האדם חייב להכין מערכי לב בכל עת. להשכין בלבו אימה ויראה מעל פני הש"י. ועל הרשעים נאמר (ירמיה ח) ולא אמרו בלבבם נירא נא את ה' אלהינו. והאיש הנותן חתיתו בארץ חיים שלא לשם שמים. אין בלבו אימה מלפני השם, ורוצה להטיל אימתו על בריותיו. ותחת שיש לו לערוך מחשבות להשכין אימת השם בלבו. הוא עורך אותם להטיל אימת עצמו על העם השי"ת. ונאמר (ש"ב כג) מושל באדם צדיק מושל יראת אלהים. פירוש ראוי להיות מושל באדם צדיק שהוא מושל יראת אלהים. כי אחר שהוא ירא את הש"י ראוי לעמו שייראו מלפניו:
והשלשה פנים שהם מצד העם
קסה. האחד - כי הוא מצער הציבור בהטלת אימתו. ונאמר (ויקרא כה) לא תונו איש את עמיתו. והוא על ענין הצער בדברים כאשר ביארנו כבר:
קסו. והשני כי כמה מכשולים באים בסיבת הטלת אימה, כמו שאמרו רבותינו זכרונם לברכה לעולם אל יטיל אדם באימה יתירה בתוך ביתו שהרי פילגש בגבעה הטיל עליה בעלה אימה יתירה והפילה כמה רבבות מישראל:
קסז. והשלישי כי עם הקדוש שהם עובדי השם יתברך, אין להם להכנע לבשר ודם, ואינו מן הראוי להיות מורא בשר ודם עליהם אלא לש"ש. שנאמר (שם) כי לי בני ישראל עבדים, עבדי הם ולא עבדים לעבדים. ונאמר (שמות יט) ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש. לשון כהנים אדונים ושרים. וכמוהו (ש"ב ח) ובני דוד כהנים היו. וכל העם נקראו ממלכה. מלשון (מ"א יח) אם יש גוי וממלכה. (ישעיה ס) כי הגוי והממלכה. פירושו - אתם תהיו לי ממלכה שכולה שרים שלא יהיה עליכם עול בשר ודם. ונאמר (שם נא) מי את ותיראי מאנוש ימות. ונאמר (שם) אל תיראו חרפת אנוש.
ואמרו רבותינו זכרונם לברכה משרבו האומרים לרע טוב ולטוב רע פרקו מעליהם עול שמים והושלך עליהם עול בשר ודם. ואמר דוד המלך עליו השלום (תהלים ט) קומה ה' אל יעוז אנוש ישפטו גוים על פניך. שיתה ה' מורה להם ידעו גוים אנוש המה סלה. למדנו מזה כי עת אשר יעוז אנוש אינו מכיר שהוא אנוש. כי אין שררה ראויה לאנוש זולתי לשם שמים.
Annon said:
"Where is the Rebbe when it comes to be Moche on חילול ה'????"
didnt he say something?
you should off send him a transcript of your style Mechoye"
Actually, he needs NO transcript. לא המדרש עיקר אלא המעשה.
I am continuously amazed at the disconnect of the brainwashed. The poor helpless Rebbe can only muster words of discouragement when it comes to Spitzer and very efficient actions when it comes to his כבוד המדומה.
I've still get plenty of friends in Skver and you know what they're busy with RIGHT NOW? Not talking Loshon Horah is the "in" thing... And my friends (who are waiting to throw off the עבודת פרך (and where btw among the first תושבים in Skver - are afraid to even whisper. They now that informants are snooping...
Annon says:
""Sure, there are two sides to any story. So you're saying that in every case both sides are a little right and a little wrong?"
yes, I believe that in most cases there are some gray areas,"
Ah the luxury of ignorance!
And in some cases when people offer to give testimony in Bais Din they ar threatened with losing their jobs....
Calling Skver a mafia ruled town isn't hyperbole. It's the sad fact.
And as Chazal say:
ושנתנו חתיתם בארץ החיים... יורדין לגיהנם ונידונין בה לדורי דורות.
Annon says:
"Obviously you were gullible and were absolute sure that the Skverer is the real McCoy so you got affiliated to the tune of becoming a askan."
That is true. I was taken. And thousands are being fooled right now. TIt hurts to think how many people will give away the bulk of their lives to such foolishness. And it hurts even more when well meaning people call it Loshon Horah to try to save the ignorant..............
As far as what RYY though of his son, there I three explanations על פי שלחון ערוך:
1( He was blinded by Negious. This is mentioned in Chazal often, even in Shulchan Aruch יו"ד ס' רמ"ב ס' ל"ו רמ"א states that a Talmud Chochim isnt trusted to Pasken on issues where he has a נגיעות without reasoning that can be validated.
2) The son was a "good boy" and afterwards הקדיח תבשילו.
3) RYY never said anything of the sort, the מקורבים added, embellished or just made up. Yeah, when you're an askan you actually get to see that such things happen. When I was "Kosher" they said good things about me that weren't true, and when I became a Koifer Be'Eminas tzadikim they made up bad things....
Iwasonce
There is a chazal
Zeroik Moreh Betalmidim
Iwasonce
is the Rema talking on finamcial issues, or praising your son?
Iwasonce
Listen to me and get over it, Just dont forget my advice on the Will for your children.
Definitely. But Only to do what Hashem wants. Not to magically turn the Rebbe's rotzon into Hashem's ratzon, regardless of any Mekoros in Chazal.
And surely not to enforce the Rebbe's ratzon by brute force, regardless of any Mekoros in Chazal.
When a Rebbe asks people to follow him blindly AND he insinuates that they do against the Torah... he stops being a Rebbe and becomes an AVODO ZOROH...
th rema refers to anything... The mekor is a gemara in Yevomos regarding עמוני ולא עמונית, in other words who can convert.
The Gemara In Kidushin uses it in reference to not being able to call a certain kind of person a Mamzer...
Anon writes "get over it"
Why is it that if you see a person (physically) drowning we won't hesitate to save him from drowning and be מקיים לא תעמוד על דם רעך, but when so many people are drowning spiritually we are supposed to "get over it"?
Could it be that we don't care about spiritual well being as much as physical? Is it any wonder that so many of our youth smell the cynicism and leave the fold (or don't have their heart in Yiddeshkeit)?
I hate to say this. But if this is what Ukrayner Chsidus was about.
Let's remember the Tkufa of puste Rebbishe kinder was well on its way the Kiever Maskilim must have had a field day.
If even Chsidisher Yidden had veered from the Derech HaToyre.
I'm not Machnis Royshi beyn etc but the Divrey Chaim hot gehat vaistoys a shtikl point.
If the yesod hachsidus is preserving the holiness of the rebbes body so that its
Mashpia gezint parnuse in naches farn gantzn dor.
During the photographed powow when the rebbe
Posed for pictures with hillary both grinning ear to ear and yucking it up with her and Bill having a grand ole time was the Dow adversly affected in any way?
Anon,
The reshimos of R' Moshe Neishlos don't prove anything.so he is a bigger masmid and yoras shomayim than the world assumes,what does it prove? What's the point? Are you aware what the world assumes ? So he is MORE than that.gevaldig!
Iwasonce said
"but when so many people are drowning spiritually we are supposed to "get over it"?"
Obviously I and all the people don't feel that in New Square there is massive conversion to Christianity.Your personal matter tends to overblow the total situation with the hanhoga. As I told you before your situation is repeated in every Kehila and Chasidus, It is sad but it is a fact. Just a couple of years ago,there was a situation with th with Rosenfeld the founder of the Belzer Bies Malka schools in Isreal.He was a star in Belz, the Ruvs buddy, He raised the funds, he borrowed, he got donations,he built up a network of schools. The economy tanked like now, and he couldnt repay some loans, it got from bad to worse, he was thrown to the dogs, he was disowned by the Belzer Establishment . The Ruv forgot his name veshem Imoi, he used to write mamorim in the Hamachne, all his talent was out of the window.
He left to the USA and fried out, leaving behind a big family in Eretz Hakdoshe. He was interviewed by the Mariv, the Ruv comes across very low and vulgar.
The bottom line,
get on with your life and forget about it, and don't try to save Skver.
Iwasonce
"When a Rebbe asks people to follow him blindly AND he insinuates that they do against the Torah..."
Following blindly is the problem? or do against the torah?
What will you answer to the chazal, Afilu al Yemin Semoil etc..?
anon says"
"Obviously I and all the people don't feel that in New Square there is massive conversion to Christianity.Your personal matter tends to overblow the total situation with the hanhoga. "
Obviously, you - and many others - are missing the point. My own story is a footnote that's irrelevant:
1) The benchmark that Chassidus should be judged by is not "massive conversion to Christianity". Chassidus wasnt establishes as a means of keeping kids from going OTD. It's purpose is rather to help adherents live lives that lead them to constantly grow and שעפ חיות from עבודת ה'. Chassidus has become such big business that words like אהבת ה' are basically cliche. Look in NS and you'll see lots of miserable, conflicted people. Not all, but lots. The experiment has failed insofar as serving the purpose of being "authentic".
2) You write that "your situation is repeated in every Kehila and Chasidus". Here again you miss the point. Forget about "my" story, and just look at what's going on. No other chissidus today messes with the chassidim's minds like NS, and nobody asks such total adherence from the נאנטע. Sure, a big crowd doesnt believe anymore and they skip tisch - but even in their own minds they consider themselves "less chasidish".
The dilemma is clear:Follow everything and Plotz, or don't follow and accept that youre inferior.
To all Skver haters,
since I am no Skver chosid, and no paid spokesman from the Skverer regime, guys like Kadaffi pay for lobyists to improve their image. So far I did not see a check in the pipeline for me,
So, zietz alle gezunt and go on with venting your anti skver rage.
Iwasonce
"It's purpose is rather to help adherents live lives that lead them to constantly grow and שעפ חיות from עבודת ה'. "
did you find the ideal place on our planet? where only avdus hashem matters,it looks like you keep it as a secret.
Anon says:
"What will you answer to the chazal, Afilu al Yemin Semoil etc..?"
Another fabrication from the mind control gang..
1) The Sifri only applies to Beis Din. No single Rav has such a koyach al pi din.
מקורות: דרך פקודיך מל"ת טז, אגרא דכלה פ' קרח בד"ה ויקח קרח, יעב"ץ בספר מגדול עוז עלית היראה וכו'
2) The Sifri contradicts the Yerushalmi in Horias 2:. The Yerushalmi says to listen על ימין שהוא ימין ועל שמאל שהיא שמאל.
Many maforshim therefore differentiate between a definite mistake and what seems to be a mistake.
others differentiate between wether the dissenting opinion was examined and discarded (then listen), or simply discarded (don't listen).
Anon says:
"did you find the ideal place on our planet? where only avdus hashem matters,it looks like you keep it as a secret.
"
Not at all. What many strivers have found is that we have to keep slugging alone.
But what a place like Skver has done is basically removed the Bechira, because they grow up being taught NOT to use their שכל, since the Rebbe has AL the answers. So they stay קורח מכאן וקורח מכאן.
Contrast that to Satmar, where they believe that anyway בטלה תורת הבעש"ט, so those that strive know that it'll take their own hard work.
to anon who says:
"So, zietz alle gezunt and go on with venting your anti skver rage."
I'm sorry that you have such a hard time debating things rationally and you have to fall back on name calling. I'm actually quite composed. It's just a Mitzvah like any other that we're doing, not unlike לא תעמד על דם רעך or השבת אבידה לפי"ד המנ"ח.
It would be of great interest to us out here in Peoria to have more details of the ongoings in NS. Many people have this nostalgic warm notion of the shtetl. If you would provide details of the machinations of the inner circle, it would be a great favor for those incarcerated in Skverantanamo Bay.
Out here it's hard to understand the math. One is greater than seven thousand.
Peoria: The "one" who is greater than 7000 or in some cases 70,000 is the one who provides the mystical experiences and gives the special advice and blessings gleaned through arcane practices that only he can perform.. So the bottom line is that the masses who need these extra-terrestrial spiritual experiences that give them an amazing "high" by the tish or by the reading of the kvittel need their"holy man" who in return for offering said services insists on total obedience.I don't see Rabbis Kotler,Finkel,Povarsky,or Elyashiv demanding anything remotely similar. However the trade off is that the brand of haredi judaism they offer is rather dry and unemotional.You want the "rebbe" option then be prepared to pay the price.And it's not just Skver.
I am dissapointed that the Moifes Choytech re the Petira of the Telzer Roshive ZL
was not "processed" here vi svolt gipast far aza Mokoim.
The Mashmois elsewhere is that such evidence to Offener Ruach HaKoidesh was not seen Miymois HBlsht"v Zya.
Btw R S Shapiro N"Y is a voyler yid a Tmimusdiker
Talmid Chochom Kvoidoi bimkoimoi munach. But
Der Emmes Muz Endlach Arois ! Once and for all.
I would recommend reading the new LeOvdcho Bi'emmes. A bio on the Machnivker Rebbe ZL. Just to get a feel for what Skver once was. ( Only for objective readers I don't want to be Machshil the gullible -those of you that live off of rebbishe memres and remarks. The author treats the NS rebbe very well but a bar daas can see past it)
When your done reading it try and imagine the MR (evidently a true embodiment of what a scion of the Skverer dynasty was supposed to be all about ) doing such a photo shoot with Bill amd Hill.
Somehow, I still feel that a clear-minded reading of Chzal with Rishonim is still the best bulwark against getting caught up in the web of fantasies that places like NS have built up.
To a large extent, what convinces otherwise ehrliche people to allow themselves to be mislead from such charlatans, is the fear or awe of their ability to prave mofsim.
The following Ramban clearly states that even if someone has the ability to see into the future, it proves nothing about his authenticity:
(דברים יג ב): "כי יקום בקרבך נביא או חלם חלום" - יקראנו הכתוב "נביא" על פי עצמו, שיאמר הוא "השם דיבר עמי בהקיץ ואני נביאו שלוח לכם שתעשו כן".
וייתכן שירמוז הכתוב למה שהוא אמת, כי בנפשות בקצת האנשים כח נבואיי ידעו בו עתידות, לא ידע האיש מאין יבא בו, אבל יתבודד ותבא בו רוח לאמר "ככה יהיה לעתיד לבא בדבר פלוני". ויקראו לו הפילוסופים "כהין", ולא ידעו סיבת הענין, אך הדבר נתאמת לעיני רואים. אולי הנפש, בהתבודדה, תדבק בשכל הנבדל ותתכוין בו. והאיש הזה יקרא "נביא" כי מתנבא הוא, ועל כן יבוא האות והמופת אשר יאמר אליך.
Iwasonce
The Ramban has no relevance to the case at hand.
He's talking about a bonafide yoydea asidois we're talking about bubbe maysess.
But in principle you are correct. Yedias HaToyre does prevent such nonsense from being accepted.
I posted here that R Yeedele ZL- a great Chasidic Talmid Chochom - remarked regarding the Mofsim attributed to his grandfather Hrh"k R Srulche of Vizhniz ZL in the bio written by N E roth that he could write many more volumes on the mofsim that didn't succeed. That doesn't diminish the VR stature since that was not what defined him.
The very premise is absurd. Hgr Chaim Stein Zl was oysek batoyro for close to 9 decades wouldn't merit receiving HaShem Yisborach's Brocho of Oyrech Yomim Biymino but an off the cuff comment by Rabbi Twersky was needed to do the trick
Anon says:
"The Ramban has no relevance to the case at hand.
He's talking about a bonafide yoydea asidois we're talking about bubbe maysess. "
Of course, and I totally agree with you. My point is אפילו לשיטתם, where they are fed a constant menu of moyfsim that is meant to make them accept that the Rebbe is כאליהו בהר הכרמל, the Ramban can make them (perhaps) think twice.
Iwas- good luck with that
it seems the Tzemach Tzedek ZL bishaytoi was very umtzufriden from the Mofsim business. Bshaas ven velt iz noch given velt
"Iwas- good luck with that"
I harbor to illusion that the brainwashed will suddenly wake up because of the Ramban I quoted. But I think that in the current Matzav there are some serious people who are confused because of (what they are sold as) Mofsim + things like אפילו אומרים לך על ימין שהוא שמאל, which someone mentioned before.
The Ramban can dispel the "worry" of going against a Bal Moyfes. The Mekoros I brought earlier can dispel the notion the Rebbe's can say על ימין שהוא שמאל.
Besides, anyone can see that in יו"ד ס' רמ"ב ס' כ"ב there is an obligation of being מוכח תלמיד לרב, so we obviously can't say he has free reign to say anything he wants.
The ppl that are into a place like NS because of the social value won't change. Those doing it because of מנהג אבותיהם בידיהם won't either. Those that were brainwashed into being דוחה מחשבת מינות, an not get into debates (the truly brainwashed) won't, either...
Who will / might? The real מבקש that thinks he's doing the best for himself and his children.
T
HaRav iwasonce
If you are who I suspect you are its an honor.
One mayse in above mentioned LeOvdecho I must share.
One of his Chsidim upon seeing him finally in Eretz Yisroel expressed his Agmas Nefesh over the 3 days Bitul Toyre Machmas Tiltul HaDerech. The Machnivker Rebbe ( a giant in Ahavas HaToyre) told him curtly "nee-gey zetz dich shoyn lernen!"
I don't think it was the MR's Yetzave the motivated his Chsidim. Er iz BEmmes GIVEHN un gezehn(hot gikent zehn)az di Chsidim zayne zoln oych ZAYN
anon said:
"If you are who I suspect you are its an honor."
I dunno who you think I am, and I probably won't be able to confirm or deny any suspicion you have.... but I'm honored that you're honored....
Your Rebbe caused the greatest Chilul Hashem ever Al admas America. He was goyrem ver veys vifl sinas yisrol.
Nope. He's only number 3 after Rubashkin and Dwek.
"Nope. He's only number 3 after Rubashkin and Dwek."
Absolutely no comparison. From the perspective of the "reasonable" not especially anti-semitic Non-Jew, Rubashkin and Dwek are simply the "rotten apples" that every community has.
To their mind, the Rebbe - and the wall of silence and indifference that followed the horrible attack, is a sign for a totally crooked and ugly interpretation of religion.
As the Rambam wrote, איש מפורסם בחסידות doing ugly things magnifies everything.
You can be sure that thousands of Goyim are now thinking "this is what the best of the Jews look like"?
Rabosi! The yismach moshe z”l writes in his time rov minion from klal yisrueal are yereim, what happen to klal yisrual that today 90%+ are not even shomrei shabos! (I’m sure you will not blame skver! for that!) the answer according to the greatest visionary of our time is zionisim and its predessocer haskaloh! the SR z”l writes that if you will take all averios of klal yisruael and put it on one side of the scale and zionisim on the other than zionisim will out weigh it! The cilul hashem and the yeriduh of klal yisruel are not this or that chasideus or litvishe derech (both are more or less falsified) but zionisim and what it encompasses! Rabosi! wake up! a quote from the gemorah or from the rambam or from anywhere else will not help you! Seeing the core of it will! For starters read the v’yoel moshe in perspective (leave your opinion or your rebbes opinion out of it) you may start to understand something!
Assuming that the world was created and continues to exist in the merit of the small percent of people being Moser Nefesh for Shmiras Hatorah, I think it's fair to say that OUR bigger problem is unmasking and removing the false נביאים and מנהיגים amongst us.
This is not my opinion, but Chazal themselves say:
תניא רבי יוסי בן אלישע אומר אם ראית דור שצרות רבות באות עליו צא ובדוק בדייני ישראל שכל פורענות שבאה לעולם לא באה אלא בשביל דייני ישראל שנאמר וכו' לפיכך מביא הקב"ה עליהן ג' פורעניות כנגד ג' עבירות שבידם שנאמר וכו' ואין הקב"ה משרה שכינתו על ישראל עד שיכלו שופטים ושוטרים רעים מישראל שנאמר וכו'
Sorry to keep on quoting gemorah and Rambam.....
IWasOnce said...
Sorry to keep on quoting gemorah and Rambam.....
I would say you’re misquoting, applying selectively quotes not pertaining to the current events, and choosing to ignore it where it applies is heresy maybe.
Time to do a little research and find out why people were affected by Haskala and Zionism.
So easy to blame Zionism for all our ills, allows us not to reflect on our own sins and pass the blame unto others.
RJT "deserves" credit for concocting a theory that has misled hundreds of thousands of Jews and at the same time given them a superiority complex that endangers all of us.
With this he professed his love for klal yisroel while spewing his hate filled diatribe.
IWasOnce said...
Sorry to keep on quoting gemorah and Rambam.....
I would say you’re misquoting, applying selectively quotes not pertaining to the current events, and choosing to ignore it where it applies is …
Anon says:
"I would say you’re misquoting, applying selectively quotes not pertaining to the current events, and choosing to ignore it where it applies is …"
Let's see... Misquoting? I actually copied and pasted everything..
Applying selectively.... Ignoring where it applies to... Please do offer examples... And stick around for the rebuttals, instead of scurrying off when you run out of excuses.
FYI, The Satmarer Rebbe ZTZ"L often quoted the same Gemora in Shabbos that I just did, and while I don't know much about Satmar, I'm old enough to remember that he wasn't ONLY busy with Tzionim.. He fought against ANYTHING he thought was wrong.
Whatever you hold about Tzionim should be irrelevent, just as what you ate for breakfest is irreleven to whether you should buy a new dining room set. Problems need to be dealt with, and not excused away forever.
The Tzionim thing is (like it or lump it) a Machlokis Gedolim. Not that any "Heimishe" Gedolim CH"V condone an anti-religious govt., but rather what the definition of condoning is, etc.
On the other hand, the moral bankruptcy of places like NS coupled with the Mafia tactics of enforcement that are ingrained there
Please remember that I had a front row seat to know that what goes on in NS is not just sanctioned and encouraged, but basically forced from the "big fish". And the "plausible denial" excuse that the Rebbe has used so long, is finally sounding hollow to lots of regular people that bought his stories in the past.
IWasOnce said... etc.
yourquote about false nevium … sorry that does not apply here, there is no nevium
Your quote about false manhigim… you don’t like the rebbe of NS many don’t like the LR and think worse of him and his kehila shtik..than you think of NS
You write: that he (SR) wasn't ONLY busy with Tzionim.. He fought against ANYTHING he thought was wrong… of course he did and he build one of the best kehila life in america as a prototype that many copy, just look on the picture hirshel put up of Telshe, 1936 reb chaim stein.. although all good yiden but without any yiddishe tzira (in todays america even the litvishe have a yidishe tzirah..) said that, I’ll also tell you that NS does not have to be ashamed of any kehila in america with their 1000’s of yereim v’shlimum graduated from there!, Those who do not have any kehila life like most ltvishe in america fall away from yidshkeit way way.. more than in the erliche kehilos (with all their faults) the hafkerous there is sky high!!! You just choose not to see it even when you know it!!! BMG of lakewood and the likes who have the liberty to choose whom ‘they see fit’ and the rest they leave behind in the dumbs that not an option by chasidum !
No one will defend NS or BMG, CH, or rabbi kasin or dwek or satmar their atrocites shtik that is and has to be condemed!, but don’t pick and choose and apply your little moral equilancycey pisgumim like it apllies to one sect of yidden and not to others (who you cant aplly it to, because of the hafkereis there has no central office, i.e fltbush, five towns, whasington heights, los angeles, MB, israel etc..)
Final but not last, individually and kehlishe atrocites transgrationes by yiden always happened and will happen unfortunately till moshiach will come, and justice will be done! But to compare it to the collective chillul hashem and the gross transgression that is being done in the name of klal yisruel “by the tzionim” the frumme more so than the frei ones, with no protest from the so called yideshe manhigim or klal leaders! THAT WAS NEVER DONE NOT EVEN IN THE TIME OF THE Y’EVUNIM! That’s not a satmer shita! I’ll quote you on that literraly 1000’s of mamurah chazal! … if needed. There is no machlokis h’agodolim on that! ‘TILL KORAH MEBEIN ANEICU’
My quote about false Neviim was on target. As i mentioned earlier, the Ramban explains that a Nuvi can refer to any "miracle worker", and false navi refers to anyone insuniating that Chasidim should be עובר על דברי תורה. Please see my earlier reference to the Ramban.
The NS Rebbe most definitely knew of ongoing, frequent עבירות that he could have easily put a stop to and he chose not to.
How do I know he knew? Well, I often told him...
anon said:
"you don’t like the rebbe of NS many don’t like the LR and think worse of him and his kehila shtik..than you think of NS"
I really shouldn't justify such silliness with an answer....
Being a Manhig isn't a popularity contest. It has nothing to do with how many people love or hate him. It has to do with has actions, and how clearly right or wrong they are.
We unfortunately live in times when Chilul Hashem is rampant, but the Skvere Rebbe stands out for the wide disconnect between the product he "sells" - the heiligsta of the heilgsta, all ahavas yisroel and chumras and being dan lekaf zchus - to his reality.
THAT makes him so dangerous... The unsuspecting Five Towns crowd falls for it.
IWasOnce said...
I would say 'UWasOnce' and you still are 'naive'
all chasidum from the time of the rebbe reb ber z"l where saying their rebbe is 'a miracle worker' reb maendel from vtepsk, the aveni nezer and many others adress this false notion! if you was naive to think like that of the current SR, well I'm glad you woke up and smelled the coffee! but in no way it makes him a false nuvi !!
"Those who do not have any kehila life like most ltvishe in america fall away from yidshkeit way way"
I'm sure you've thoroughly researched that slanderous statement of yours.
I'll tell you (as a "Heimshe") what's wrong with the world view you espouse...
Once upon a time Tzadikim added Minhagim and Chumras as a bulwark against bad השפעה, and they stressed the importance of those minhagim and their value in protecting the עיקר.
We are now unfortunately witnessing a wholesale רפיון in the עיקרים, where people still get that fuzzy warm feeling because they're doing the minhagim...
"don’t pick and choose and apply your little moral equilancycey pisgumim"
Again and again you miss the point and you threw into one bucket shaalos about dina demalchiso along with rotten individuals on the one-side and moral bankruptcy and mafia tactics of their enforcement by a person that multitudes come to for a "direct connection" to Hashem...
Pleeze...
" kehlishe atrocites transgrationes by yiden always happened"
Skver has no Kehilla. It ONLY has a Rebbe. As the Takonos clearly state, and as any insider knows. Nobody does ANYTHING without the Rebbe. There were never any Kehilla elections.
And of couse there were always kehilishe atrocities... And so there were murders and Chilul Shabbos... So will you next Rebbe be a Mechalil Shabbos?
"THAT WAS NEVER DONE NOT EVEN IN THE TIME OF THE Y’EVUNIM!"
Typical of someone who can't win an argument... Just scream louder.
The Satmarer can brew up as many stories as they want... The fact remains that טשיבענע רב, חזון איש, סטייפלער did believe in going to בחירות. They had a different definition of התבדלות מרשעים than the Satmarer Rebbe Ztza"l.
They were all Kedoshim, as was the LR. Too bad. The skvere shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath. He's a fraud an an actor.
Anything else you wanted to say?
"all chasidum from the time of the rebbe reb ber z"l where saying their rebbe is 'a miracle worker'"
It would be nice if youa actually read the ramban before commenting.
I'll try again. Many Tzadikim WERE and ARE miracle workers.
צדיק גוזר והקבה מקיים.
A נביא שקר is one that uses his purported miracle working powers to cause people to be עובר על דברי תורה.
That is what the skvere olam is trained to do.
IWasOnce said... whatever.
I feel your pain you got duped in believing in something that is not! ha ha that happened to many chasidum for the last 100+ years in many circumstances with dire consequences.. and thats why great manhigim warned chasidum not to thing that their rebbe is above the torah!(although square didnt listen..) maybe the current SR is not fit to be a rebbe! but most skevere self imposed their imprisonment! and they do have a choice.. (like u) said that u know as well as I that there is a lot of torah and yirah in square which will prevail the current ho hah! with or without their leader if u dont like it get out of there, when you find a better way join it! but dont give up!
IWasOnce said...
.. So will you next Rebbe be a Mechalil Shabbos?
again a naive question, learn 'heichel habrucha' from the hileger kemarner.. he warned 100 years ago that indeed will have rebbes mechalal shabos c"v among other averios! my advise choose your rebbe very carefully! and dont force "your" chosen rebbes children on "your" children!(they way skver and others do)
IWasOnce said...
Typical of someone who can't win an argument... Just scream louder
You haven’t open your eyes yet (u just got out of skver,remember?) none of this gedolim you mentioned belived otherwise than I stated, the machloka was how to address this issue of ‘frum zionisim’ some belived in fighting them from in and some from out! But no one supported even an inch of zionisim! By the way besides going to the ‘bechirous’ do you know anything more of these gedolims shita! Did they write it somewhere I can read/learn it! Or are you just name dropping, am I discussing you as an grown-up or yinkele who needs to learn a little?
Those who disagreed with the SR did not say that the chillul HaShem of the zionists should be met with apathy. We have a responsobility to announce to the world and ourselves that Zionism is not Judaism and a jew is defined by the Torah. Going to bechiros to try and save what we can from the thugs who appropriated the name Yisroel for themselves and steal our money and religion is not, in any way, condoning their existence or actions. All Hungarian Rabbonim joined the government - sponsored congress in 1862(? I may have that wrong, correct me) to save Judaism from the Neologs, even though they had to sit together with them.
According to the influential French philosopher Louis Althusser, organizations operate (and keep its members in line) by a combination of what he calls the Repressive State Apparatus, which is the use of force, e.g. police, army, etc., and the Ideological State Apparatus, which is the method by which ideology is propagated, e.g. religion, media, family, education, etc. (Education is highest on the ISA ladder.) Hasidism utilizes both these apparatuses efficiently. Although they do not have an official police force beating people who step out of line, the mission of the RSA is to scare people into behaving, and Hasidism has built in several powerful factors to effectively do this job.
Chief among these is the emphasis on shidduchim. Marriage, or bayis ne’eman b’yisroel, the building of a Jewish home, is a crucial objective in Orthodox Judaism. Hasidism—a social movement at its base— simply adds a social status part to it, creating, in effect, the enormous dual pressure of firstly, finding a marriage partner for each child in order to accomplish the bayis ne’eman b’yisroel objective, and secondly, achieving a place in society by doing a “quality” shidduch. The behaviors of father, mother, children and even extended family are observed and noted for years by an organic panopticon-style community, and each eccentricity or out-of-the-box act by anyone in the family has the potential to destroy the family’s future shidduch chances. It may be difficult for an outsider to grasp the efficacy of the “shidduch RSA” to keep people in line, but anyone in a Hasidic community understands it innately. (The shidduch RSA is not unique to Hasidism; many Muslim and Hindu communities abide by a similar code.)
Also part of the Hasidic RSA are its schools’ student selection policies. This is actually a more recent innovation, apparently responding to a slight decrease in the shidduch RSA’s effectiveness. Basically, institutions refuse to accept students whose parents don’t dress or act in the manner approved by their Board. And since Hasidim are limited to specific schools, they may—if they do not behave properly—find themselves without a school for their children.
כרםצ hasidismandlit.blogspot
What remains is the paradox. If Rabbi Twersky is as great as they believe how can such Chiluley Shem Shomayim and Retzicha result from such a leader. Mgalgelin Zchus A"YZakay Mgalglin Choyv A"Y Chayov. The Chilul HaShem with FBI involvement is not new to Rabbi Twersky.
I don't get this digression into the zionism issue. We're discussing a poser a Letz. Not an Ernster Mentch. It has nothing to do with Shitos. He's not capable of any emunos vdeyos. According to his believers he's a masmid an erlicherr nor " zeyer baholtn". So he's greater than his father ZL who was not as successful in hiding his greatness...
Grand Rabbi Twersky is not a Novi Sheker. He doesn't even try. I know a sincere Yungerman who left YU as a Bochur a Mvakesh. He told me he went to the Grand Rabbi since he's a rebbe and has Ruh"k. He asked which yeshiva to attend. I forgot- he didn't know money has to change hands. The GR smiled and shrugged him off " adunno"( in english) he said "but you're the Rebbe". The GR smiled and ended the audience. Any decent person with a gefil for a Yid would ask this obviously confused kid something about himself and try to guid him. Bfrat a man who devotes his life to Yidden. But I guess the "piercing blue eyes"( that Rabbi Frand was smitten by) were looking at the the sign-in list at the names of the well heeled waiting outside. ("Hey kid can't you see I'm working here"). The GR has a constantly updated list of those waiting. You sign in and he invaryably calls in the wealthy ahead of everyone else. If you go there to watch you'll be astounded. Many don't realize he calls all the shots and fight with the Gabboim who remain dutifuly mum. Take a look at the eldery people who shlep in by bus waiting for hours. If all publicity is good publicity he has one accomplishment. -after AP picked up the "fiery dispute"(press never got tired of corny pun)story. Having more global media coverage than Lubavit
ch
I'll add a little "something" from personal experience. After personally witnessing unbelievable indifference to Halacha AND secular law, I alerted the Rebbe many times. At first, he seemed genuinely concerned.... but months passed and nothing changed.
So I came back several more times... and his comments were something to the effect that everybody complains about everybody and he "hears nothing".
Then suddenly, when I tried coming again, guess who was "tailing" me? Shia the gabbie was following after me and warning me in no uncertain terms "not to ay anything".
Question: Shia never heard anything from me - how did he know what i was talking about?
Another Question: Wouldn't anybody with one iota of Yiras Shomayim WANT to know what's wrong, so that he could correct it? (In the end, many of those guys ended up sitting in jail!!)
Draw your own conclusions.
Nice footnote: I told Shia, something like "If you would only know what's going on and what they're doing to me for talking about it...."
Shia answered... And what do you think they're doing to me?"
Stay far, far away... They're rotten all the way through!
So I came back again, demanding the right to resign.
It's really sad that such people are our leaders.
Reminds me of a story of some Rabbi in the Bronx who was rumored to have Ruach Hakodesh.
Then they find out that he had installed a hidden mike at his Gabbie's station, so he knew everything the supplicant told the Gabbie. Some Ruach Hakodesh!
I do however in all seriousness feel anyone with an axe to grind against Belz should take great care not to provide self-identifyng info. Its impossible to tell how far he's personally lept in his Great Leap Forward plan.(The great Mao of the Oilom haChasidus). As some of you know the Belzer used to share a Chotzer with a leading Marbitz Toire. When waiting for a Motze Shabbos Shiur I walked across to check out his set up. In Belz they were all by Shalshds in Agripas. The place was empty and unlocked. I walked into his room and remember seeing brass-colored 'coins' with some type of Belzer oriented inscriptions and images on them. I then noticed a cabinet that looked odd. I opened it. It was a sink. Sitting there was a bar of perfumed palm soap! I would make Shvua Dorayse if it were permitted. This was BMoy eynay. VDay Lmeyvin.
Anonymous, we know who you are.
Oy vey! Soap?! What has become of you Belz?!
Post a Comment