Thursday, December 27, 2012

הגאון אדר"ת זצ"ל מדבר על מסירה לשלטונות בשנת תרנ"ו



The responsa we bring you here is telling in at least two ways. The first way tells us that hanky panky was going in a shtetl in the Old Country way back in 1896. It isn't necessarily "news," but it's disheartening, it's not something you want to hear. And then there's the question of "mesirah," which I'm sure will rile some of you up. For some reason when it comes to the issue of abuse we've decided that the first thing we need to do is go to the police. I'm not sure when it happened; but it seems like the inaction on the part of mosdos, etc. is what caused our people to lose all trust in Rabbonim and Botei Din. They also do not believe that even if said Rabbonim and Botei Din do something that it would be sufficient. After all, Beis Din can't sentence you to life in prison...But having said that, the Aderes was a Litvak, the shver of Rav Kook, not some Williamsburg Hasid. But do we throw out all tshuves pertaining to issues like these and just use the secular courts? Do we just say נשתנו העתים because this isn't Czarist Russia 1896? Please tell me based on what we've decided to do this. Is Rikers Island or some State Penitentiary any better when we're talking about violent crimes? I don't know. YOU learn the tshuveh and decide. Also maybe read up on what happens to people like NW who are convicted of violent crimes against minors, what happens to them in jail these days... And realize, this crime in the tshuveh was alot worse than abuse, but for some reason the Aderes saw Chilul Hashem as overriding. The second half of the tshuveh is about whether or not her BF needs to marry her or not, so it's not relevant to our discussion, but feel free to read/learn it, it'll give you a glimpse into what Rabbonim dealt with...
























בכלל the witch hunt that's going concerning skeptics (not to mention defenders of Nechemya) is a little alarming. I would not be surprised if I was next in line, since I'm perceived as not "strong enough" on this issue. They're talking about boycotting any and all Satmar-owned businesses (!) since they ultimately support Satmar and "Satmar" is defending NW, sent "problematic" kids to him all these years, and still harbors abusers. Ami magazine is the subject of a boycott because he's a skeptic - or a defender, as they see him - and interviewed NW's lawyer; and G-d knows who's next. I may be next for daring to publish this tshuveh. But realize that I too have kids, b"h, that I love and cherish and care about no less than a total stranger who say he's looking out for them. I've been getting all kinds of looks and messages from good friends for what they perceive as me defending NW... It looks like people stop practicing reading comprehension when it comes to this case.

Was the Aderes a mean old man for not allowing the מאנסים to be thrown into a Czarist Russian jail? I don't think many of you would say that, no matter how far you've strayed from the path, or how much of a victim's advocate you are. Most of you would say that the times have changed and we cannot pasken like that anymore, but that the course of punishment was befitting 1896. I don't know what made you decide that, but I'll accept that argument. I'm sure you'd agree that Aderes was having her best interest in mind by taking care of her physically as well as monetarily by having her marry her suitor and having the villains pay a huge sum. All that may be lacking here - in the Mir case -  is the punishment that many so desire. The "sharing a cell with some murderer who will have his way with them," That's what seems to be missing here. I guess Aderes didn't deem that suitable punishment, otherwise chilul hashem be da--ed, throw him to the dogs! So try and wrap your brains around the concept that the fact that some people either don't believe that he did it or don't want to see him thrown into jail may not be because they're monsters; it's not a "you're either with us or against" situation. People can have different ideas than the self-proclaimed advocates and still want abuse to stop! Enough with the witch hunt!

(Wikipedia Photo)

39 comments:

Tibi Lotzi said...

who will boycott? the OTD kids? that have no money and no families? They can not stick to a simple job.The majority of them are still nesting like vultures at thier parents homes. Since the Pros claim that you shouls show them still love and these dreck are taking advantage to the fullest.They only need drugs with a hashgocha.
If they are very hungry and they have a dollar in their pocket,they can use Wendys or Dominos

מטהר את השרץ said...

Thanks for posting - good Mareh Makom

CR said...

"For some reason when it comes to the issue of abuse we've decided that the first thing we need to do is go to the police. I'm not sure when it happened; but it seems like the inaction on the part of mosdos, etc. is what caused our people to lose all trust in Rabbonim and Botei Din. They also do not believe that even if said Rabbonim and Botei Din do something that it would be sufficient. After all, Beis Din can't sentence you to life in prison..."

Well, that's the rub, isn't it? B"D are incapable of sanctioning such heinous crimes as these. The only meaningful justice can be meted out by the State. That said, the silence of rabbinic leadership in the YK, YMW and NW cases has been deafening. The revelations of attempts to cover things up have served up a massive indictment of our entire community leadership. Was nobody willing to come out with a statement of Niduy, Seruv or Shamta in light of revelations? Why do "leaders" with known histories of perversion still manage to walk B'Koma Zakufa before Gedolim and get haskoma on their new s'forim on "tahara"(!)? Indeed, why were the only such sanctions brought on the individuals who first brought accusations of such behavior? The entire B"D system has been shown to be ineffective, feckless and more concerned with Kovod over Tzedek. This is not what the Torah envisions!

As for the violent monsters mentioned above they are as the individuals sent into the "kifa" as mentioned in Sanhedrin. They are now responsible for their own fate. G-d have mercy on them because we should not!

nrssjk said...

Tzig so what's the solution ??

you mention you have kids b"h and may god protect them but the minute your child is c"v ....your opinion will change

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

nrssjk:

You make a valid point! so I was thinking that too! Is that what has happened? That those who either were or know one that has.... only they're the ones crying out?

Z said...

I'm sorry tzig but the tzushtel here is very flawed. In that case it was an isolated incident and the question was what the punishment should be. If these hooligans were going around raping jewish girls every other night I'm pretty sure he would agree to have them reported to police.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Z:

that's a very valid point. And thanks for making that point cordially, sans personal attacks.

Tibi Lotzi said...

CR
nobody claims that the Rabonim should have there own prison system as it was the norm in European Kehilas before the emancipation, but the issue is that before you go to the cops, consult a Rav first, and I would do if it would be my son.
Just to clear the air, there are Rabonim that are ready to listen and to do the action thats needed. In Monsey there was the infamous Wiengarten case, and alot of Rabonim were sticking up for the victim eventough she was on verge of OTD. So there are Rabonim that are ready to work on this dire issues , so stop bringing the negative part, only that can besmirch the frum kehilas.This whole issue that rabonim stick up for their people, is not worse then a DA or a Judge, that will bot indict his friend or his brother, so you go to a other Judge, then go now to a other Rav lehavdil

Tibi Lotzi said...

Z
for arguments sake, NM was not running around to rape and molest, the issue is that he was molesting the girl under his care.
I do think that if The Zali Satmasr Rebbe would hear 2 to 4 parents with arguments against NM, he would be stopped as a consultant. And the world would never hear of him again....

select profile said...

What I think you're really trying to say without saying it is, that The Rebbe zg"z didn't hold of mesira in these cases, as you once wrote about in a quickly removed post.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm not really trying to say anything other than what I'm ACTUALLY saying.. and that was a GUEST post.

select profile said...

If a besdin would put a niduy they would get sued for defamation and then have to masser. Catch 22.

Me said...

Did Mr Tzig read the tshuva at all? The Aderes doesn't touch upon the issue of mesirah at all, and in fact it is clear that he had no concern with this issue.

All he writes (in passing) is that for a NUMBER of reasons he managed to calm down the hotheads who wanted to turn over the rapist to the police. It is clear that this was an isolated incident not only of this rapist, but of rape in general.

Furthermore, the Goyim would never have dreamt that such things are happening amongst frum Yidden, which is why the fear of chilul Hashem was so relevant.

You can make your points, and others can debate them, but in any case the Aderes's tshuva has no bearing on the NW story st all.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

does Mr. Me know what mesirah means?

Logic said...

I wonder why you all decided that those hooligans in the times of the Aderes where an isolated case. Who said so? Simple logic says that if they did it once they will do it and did it again!!!

Tibi Lotzi said...

Me
"All he writes (in passing) is that for a NUMBER of reasons he managed to calm down the hotheads who wanted to turn over the rapist to the police. It is clear that this was an isolated incident not only of this rapist, but of rape in general."
you have no idea how Jewish was before the ware, so please read some basics before you write. this was not a isolated case

folk said...

select profile said...
What I think you're really trying to say without saying it is, that The Rebbe zg"z didn't hold of mesira in these cases, as you once wrote about in a quickly removed post

That post with nobody behind it has zero validity and i don't think that's tzig's motive

Tibi Lotzi said...

CR
" Why do "leaders" with known histories of perversion still manage to walk B'Koma Zakufa before Gedolim and get haskoma on their new s'forim on "tahara"(!)?"
I guess you are really in the IN on this matters, you know stuff and facts that we little people are in the blind.Or you listen to N R who every chosid that does not greet him GM with a smile, is a definite molester

moshe moshel said...

there are "halachos v'ain morim kaiyn" that some would say apply to molesters to let them get killed in jail because they are a active danger to society and there is no other way to stop them. i am not advocating violence of any kind, just airing a thought.

CR said...

"there are Rabonim that are ready to listen and to do the action thats needed. In Monsey there was the infamous Wiengarten case..."

Harei zeh meshubach! Unfortunately, those voices were overpowered by some "holy rollers" that published a Kol Koreh calling YMW completely innocent of all accusations. They need to be far stronger in their denounciations in the face of some powerful and corrupt enablers.

"I guess you are really in the IN on this matters, you know stuff and facts that we little people are in the blind."

Yes, I get my information from secret sources like HT's blog! You never heard about the Monsey rabbi who was caught on video schtupping some broad he was allegedly being megayer? It was quite the talk in my community as several of us have had personal contact with this individual. Those of you who are "blind" are so by your own devices.

mark said...

he wanted her to marry the boy who lusted for her, not the rapist.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Mark
that's what we said

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“Do we just say נשתנו העתים because this isn't Czarist Russia 1896?”

The Aruch Hasulchan did! And the Titz Eliezer paskens like that! There is also the issue of a habitual offender, on which Mesira IS permissible!

“The second half of the tshuveh is about whether or not her BF needs to marry her or not, “

No, it is about whether he needs to wait three months to marry her (as like a divorced lady etc).

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"I wonder why you all decided that those hooligans in the times of the Aderes where an isolated case. Who said so? Simple logic says that if they did it once they will do it and did it again!!!"

If you would read the teshuva, you would see that the rape was set up so that the BF could marry the girl. NOT a habitual action of a bunch of rapists.

Anonymous said...

http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2012/12/thurrsday-night-session-recap-at-agudah.html

yankel said...

"They need to be far stronger in their denounciations in the face of some powerful and corrupt enablers."
You are precisely the point HT wants to make. You believe that they need to be stronger, fair enough. Maybe someone disagrees with your tactic. Maybe someone believes you cannot extinguish a fire with kerosene. That does not mean that they are insensitive to the victim's pain. It is a difference in tactics and we should allow ourselves to at least think about it. Not to disengage our brains when the issue of abuse comes up.

פאקשער said...

tzig: "Most of you would say that the times have changed and we cannot pasken like that anymore, but that the course of punishment was befitting 1896"

כתב ה"חתם סופר" זי"ע בצוואתו: ולא תאמרו נשתנו העתים, כי יש לנו אב זקן יתברך שמו, לא נשתנה, ולא ישתנה

abc said...

tibi lotzi: "the issue is that he was molesting the girl under his care"

This known menuval is spreding and projecting his menuval's on others, any proof of that other than 12 temaim? who wouldn't hold up at a beis din for a second.





לקט שכחה said...

במסכת ראש השנה: "וכי תעלה על דעתך שאדם הולך אצל הדיין שלא היה בימיו: הא אין לך לילך אלא אצל שופט שבימיך. ואומר -קהלת ז' אל תאמר מה היה, שהימים הראשנים היו טובים מאלה? ללמדך, שגם אם גדולי הדור נראים בעיניך נמוכים בשיעור קומתם מחכמי הדורות שעברו, עליך לקבל את מרות המנהיגות הרוחנית שבימיך אין לך אלא שופט שבימיך

-ילקוט שמעוני, פר´ שמיני
ואת החזיר, זו מלכות רביעית!, למה מושלה כחזיר, אלא מה חזיר בשעה שרובץ הוא פושט טלפיו כלומר ראוני שאני טהור!, כך אומה זו גוזלת וחומסת! ונראית כאילו מצעת בימה!!! -במדרש כאילו הן דיינין של אמת- מעשה בשלטון אחד בקסרין שהיה הורג המנאפים והגנבים והמכשפים, ואמרו סנקליטין(יועצים) שלו שעשה שלשתן בלילה אחד!. ע"כ

Mikhail said...

tzig: "They're talking about boycotting any and all Satmar-owned businesses (!)"

They tried that by the entaba episode, boycott meal-mart they called! and created rubashkin, btw, meal-mart is still in business. and rubashkin leider I would say a result of 'their' boycut, is not.. keep digging.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Mikhail

I can see from your comment that English is not your mother tongue. Keep learning. Maybe one day you will understand what I writ here, so far you do not.

Mikhail the Russian said...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...
"I can see from your comment that English is not your mother tongue"


Is that a Virtue or a Vice?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

neither virtue nor vice, it just gets in the way of you understanding what I'm saying...

pitputim said...

I don't get it. He's a Rodef, and times definitely have changed. The only consideration is if he gets sodomised while in prison (or is likely to). If so, then place him in a glatt daf yomi prison, but prison he goes.

Halacha Detector said...

Piputim
"I don't get it. He's a Rodef,"
did you learn in Rambam hilchos Rodef? touching a girl inappropriately under your care, does not make you a rodef? Also, not by-standing the incident, but hearing about it years later does not make you a rodef. try some other halachic terminology that is more analogous to this incident.
Learn the halochas before you spew your pitputim

moshe moshel said...

When the verdict first broke, Hirshel wrote that he was going to write a spirited defense until he heard some more details... What were they?

Also, based on the Ami interview with NW attorney, it was more the "hasid" on trial than the particular accused, so what gives?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

go back and read what I wrote then, Moshe

pitputim said...

Moshe,
The Rambam doesn't know what Weberman did. Do you? Is a Rodef someone who places people in psychological danger to themselves? Are you foolish enough to ignore the fact that people like Weberman don't just choose one victim? I'd suggest we've moved on. Don't lecture me about the Rambam. Our understanding of medicine and the dangers to people's minds and lives have moved on since then.
What I'm telling you is Halocho Psuko LeYomeynu. It's not my Psak. These sick people are dangers to society and if they can be rehabilitated, Ma Tov, but the research shows that it's not an easy road.

yankel said...

I have a story from the Chofetz Chaim, printed in the Kol Kisvei CC from R' Leib about this issue. See the Dugma midarkei ovi no. 5. Maybe you can post it. Hebrewbooks does not have it on their website.