I seem to upsetting those Lubavitchers who worry about Ahavas Yisroel. They say that the Rebbe would not have approved of the "misnaged-bashing" that goes on here, and maybe they're right, but may be not. I don't go after those that don't bother me, for the most part, just those who claim to defend Yiddishkeit from the dangers of Lubavitch. The way I see it is that those tree-hugging "Peace-Loving" people are in some ways responsible for the destruction of Lubavitch as we knew it. Now, before you jump out of your seats or smash your monitors, hear me out.
We all know that all troublemakers, even children, take advantage of superiors or adversaries being "nice". You being nice to them makes them feel like they have the upper hand and they'll take you for everything you got. Try it on your kids, you'll see I'm right. The same goes for all battles, be they religious or mundane, when you keep on being nice, you'll get pie in your face.
This is the rationale behind some of the "Misnaged-bashing" that I do. I live in Charedi society, and consider myself very much a part of it, but there's only so much hate a person can take. Be it a Shivah, or lehavdil a Chasunah or other Simchah, people never seem to miss a chance to bash Chabad and the Rebbe, and even when "forced" to compliment will do it with a side order of critique. Replace the Rebbe and Lubavitch with your local "Godol" or Yeshiva or Chassidic group and see how you feel.
Most Lubavitchers live cut off from the rest of the frum world, whether in CH, Kfar Chabad, or even when they live in cities like Montreal or Chicago they instinctively keep to themselves, thereby missing out on seeing what their neighbors think of them. Most of the time they don't care about their frum neighbors, for whatever reason, and people like that usually see no reason to provoke their neighbors. What they fail to realize is that them being cut off from the rest of the frum world yet, no where else, diminishes their value and sets them up for attacks.
The same goes for what goes on in the Rebbe's shul and elsewhere in the world of Lubavitch. As long as you insist on just having Ahavas Yisroel the rabble-rousers will take advantage of you, because they know you'll stand by and do nothing. Ahavas Yisroel must be practiced, but not at the expense of sanity.
37 comments:
as said before, it takes two to tango...replace all your sermon with the reverse how a chabadnik never missses an opportunity to bash a non lubavitcher...and even when forced to make a complement he will do with a critique etc. and you'll see that it is the very same...in the end of the day: is this mindset and infatuation the reason why the Alter REbbe founded Chabad? is that the motoo the the Rebbe instilled in us? and so on and on....
על דאטיפת אטיפוך, וסוף מטיפייך יטופון. come on hirshel it's a 2 way street.
kill the messenger!!!!!!
anonymous
If you don't choose a name I'll delete your comments.
There's a MAJOR difference here, and I've said it many times. Lubavitchers will poke fun at a faceless, nameless "Misnaged", and not in publications either, mostly at private functions. They will do it not to dub him an Apikores, but to instill a certain derech, a certain emes.
The Rosh Yeshiva at an Agudah convention or at the Siyum HaShas has no reason to attack Lubavitch.
Tzibaleh
read my above comments.
Lubavitch continues to cultivate hatred of misnagdim.They tell over stories 'the misnagdim put the Alter Rebbe in jail'(do they tell over that a Lubavitcher came to arrest the Rayatz?).'The misnagdim did this in Shanghai',etc., etc.Never mind that some of the 'facts' are questionable,that is another issue,but the way they tell it,they make it sound like they hold all misnagdim,then and ad sof kol hadoros guilty of such alleged crimes.Thats what is called collective guilt in English.It creates an atmosphere of hatred,let's not kid ourselves,that is passed down from dor to dor.Is that right?
no, snag, it's not right, because it's nameless and faceless. In the worst case it's resenting someone who did you wrong, with Misnagdim it's for no reason and it's very personal, directed at the Rebbe and Lubavith.
"There's a MAJOR difference here, and I've said it many times. Lubavitchers will poke fun at a faceless, nameless "Misnaged""
baloney...there are always names involved...
," and not in publications either,..."
what?? "kol hasforim meleeim mizeh" all periodicals have here and there...
"... mostly at private functions..."
like "Cricus tent" vakyotzeh...
"... They will do it not to dub him an Apikores, but to instill a certain derech..."
a derech of sinas yisroel!
", a certain emes..." how can you have "emess" filled with shkroim?
"The Rosh Yeshiva at an Agudah convention or at the Siyum HaShas has no reason to attack Lubavitch".
only the mashpia has the right to
instill a certain "Derech" but not the SH (which btw had no snub whatsoever at L).
What the apologists in their self-doubt fail to see is that naming an example here and there does not change the general fact. We are not speaking of an occassional poke at the legendary "Misnaged". The only comparison I can make is to invoke the Rebbe here. Did the Rebbe speak like that against names of people for no reason, whe there was no issue at hand?
chochom balalyloh,
we are not talking about the Rebbe; we are talking about the masses and their mentors. they are equipped with gallons of fuel of sinas chinom at all jews...they have names at public at private lemaaloh mimdidoh vehagboloh...
it is only good to remember that there unmuzzled behavious does not stop at the "snags" but the machloykess grows and nurtures inside...where there is great level of fights keyodua leyodey cheyn...
Pray tell, what are the fights in Lubavitch over, and what are the fights in the Charedi world over.
The fights in Lubavitch, are about דעות. From Williamsburg to Bnei Brak, the wars inevitably involve an empire valued in the tens of millions...
After reading this 'objective' post I think you can summarize it as follows:If 'we' do it it's ok, it's to teach a 'derech' blah,blah,blah...If they do it then it's 'hate'. Good to know.
About them not naming names, could not figure that one out, since this, blog has named many names,many stories heard from mashi'im at farbys.The last example was an unbelievably dumb post about R'Abramsky, trying to mock him for absoloutely nothing.
Keep up the kood work...
Nathan
u are so naive
But Tzig u make a great point
we do live so aprat from the rest of the frum worldwe
and mayby that swhy we have become what we are
we really do not care what they think of us, becuase if we do we would act diffrently, and thats the truth.
ah guten Shabos
snags will be snags - can't change em they get great examples on how to behave from their top men - do expect otherwise? look how much trouble they are causing in europe/and the former ussr for chabad - vile vile people.
You fail to reognize a fundamental diffrence in each side's criticisms. Lubavitch HAVE got a major, avoda-zoroh making problem, the Rebbe.
There is nothing earth-shatteringly wrong with the rest of the Chareidi world, other than the eternal problems of money, jealousy, loshon horo etc etc which afflict all mankind.
Another major problem with the Lubavitch is their Torah. Many Bochrim seem to have no working knowledge of Shulchon Aruch, only Tanya and I have never heard Lubavitch quote from a non-Lubavitch source except the Rambam.
I spoke to a Litvishe Rov who used to work in an eastern European country soon after the fall of Communism. As he put it, "I had to know Arba Chelkei Shulchan Aruch - with Lubavitch these "kids" come in and preach without even the basics!"
For one thing, its important to note that misnaged bashing is not the norm in Chabad. Tzig (with no criticism intended) happens to have left an environment that he did not like and is very emotional about this. Most chabad people are simply not concerned with misnagdim's feelings towards them. This appears to have been the Rebbe's attitude as well. Of course respect for misnagdim as fellow jews, and if they have serious halachic issues with us we respond, but no nitty gritty unnecessary wars to 'uphold our kavod'.
They would rather think about their task in this world- v'zeh kol ha'adam... lihyos Lo Yisbarach dirah bitachtonim. They certainly will act with ahavas yisoroel toward misnagdim- like the AR says in siman Beis of igerres hakodesh, and perek lamed beis (harachmanus mivateles hasina'ah umi'oreres hahavah...).
Its hard for a not lubavitcher to understand how geshmack it is to be a lubavitcher, how rich our culture is, how much our Rebbeim give us and teach us, how lubavitch really fills every single aspect our lives. They simply have no comprehension of what we have. (I know this might be an approach that cerain misnagdim would consider arrogant, but its not arrogance, its pride. Think about this- most lubavitcher bochrim probably never heard of R' Yecheskel Abramsky. (I happen to have been very close with his grandson, and met his son from bayit vegan several times.) Not becuase they have no respect for him or hsi Torah, ch"v, but b/c they are kol kulom oisek in what they have, which includes, of course a ribui atzum of chassidus and nigleh.
Therefore, in my opinion, it is not proper, worthwhile or counstructive to engage in these debates.
Ma'aravah, so is Tzig correct in bashing 'snags' because as you put it :'Tzig (with no criticism intended) happens to have left an environment that he did not like and is very emotional about this'
I don't get it, you seem to be saying that if you are very 'emotional about things you can go and tell bobeh maysehs about other yidden??
look at bpunbound message and see how much "hatred" there is and he calls it "derision" not "hatred".
it's all the same garbage: it's an weven "higher" hatred, an *arrogant* cold blooded *hatred* that since the other guy existence contradicts my metzius therefore it's simple that he does not exist, and if he does, he *really* does not (for only *i* exist) exist and this arrogant feeling itself is a higher level of hatred and results in conveying and dabbling lies and lies and lies...
Maybe something should be learned from Tzigs own admission about what other religous Jews think about Lubavitchers, he even admits that it includes other chasidic Jews.
The question is why?Is Tzig claiming that chas vesholom many of these yidden are simply bad.....Or do they maybe have a point.Did Lubavitch maybe be 'moitsee themselves min haklal'?
Does their behavior appear arrogant to other Jews?Does it help that a large percentage of Lubavitch is pushing a strange moshiach agenda where the Rebbe 'stars' as 'melech hamoshiach shlita'?
You cannot blame everything on 'hate' if you are a truthful person,if however you are a victim of brainwashing that's exactly what you''ll do!
Tzig, please get that massive chip off your shoulder, stop making us, the regular frum world the focus of your anger, when you should really try some introspection.
Bpunbound,
eactly the attitude (od the two way street) was there 40 50 60 70 years ago when mentors of both sides fed and inculcated their followers masses of hatred twaords the other...
Nice to see some good old fashioned friendly arguing going on here.
Repeating the same untruths here will not change the facts. We're speaking of hate and scorn by the "Gedolim", including the "Godol HaDor" with a non-stop diet of hate, Loshon Horah, and Motzie Shem Rah. Compare that to a mashpia by a farbrengen cracking jokes and you're an oblivious fool.
I appreciate all the quack psychologists making their amateur analyzations.
HT,
I see, you have colored glasses, when you write falsehood about them saying "rabbeyno chananel's pshat wrong..." or other similar falsehood it's only "cracking a joke" or teaching a "derech", the same when saying and teaching a whole generation that others who do not learn chassidus chabad are half-frum or don't really beleive in torah or in g-d....but when some of those guys have legitimate criticism about false meshichism or other ill of our group that is "hate".
You live in a fantsy world and i have pity that you have to live with a lie.
and beloshon chazal "אין אדם רואה נגעי עצמו..."
Hirshel, you are trying to blame Rav Shach for preaching hate instead of the message he tried desperately to impart to Lubavitch:You are crossing red lines that have been crossed by various Jewish offshoots, that have fallen off the Jewish map.
Unfortunately, he was right,Lubavitch with its meshichisten and the start of the newer 'boreinuniks' ala Ariel Sokolovsky is scary.The Jewish world can only try and warn you, help you open your eyes, but the only ones that can save the 'matsav' are Lubavitchers themselves.
A pity that the mesirus nefesh of Lubavitchers is used in the wrong direction, to continue not to 'chap hispayles' from the 'mal'igim'.
Why can't you discuss what if Lubavitch had been forewarned and thrown out dangerous folk like Wolpe and averted your version of the Taliban.The time is now, clean up YOUR ACT!After you do that we''ll discuss what they do or don't say in Lakewood or Boro Park or Willy or Bnei Brak
The emes is that Chassidim(of various types)preach,teach and make it sound as if hisnagdus is because of baseless hatred,jealousy, and maaseh _ _ _ _ _ - instead of admitting that the misnagdim have a different legitimate derech in avodas Hashem that goes back to before Chassidus started,which they want to preserve, instead of converting to Chassidism.
They teach that 'the misnagdim' put the AR in jail-I have seen it printed that way.Don't give me some bobbe maase that they don't say that.Maybe there are a few more refined ones that don't, but those are the exception.
Having gone thru chabad yeshivas I can say as fallows.
There was never any real misnaged bashing, the only people who got bashed were the ones who would dance around saying not nice while a video of the rebbe was playing, or go into the shul on richov rashi take sichos and burn them on the street.
We don't hate misnagdim, we bash those who fallow blindly in the path of a certain Jew who had a street named after him in bb, who spewed hate at us and our rebbe.
HT, I'm getting tired of these childish chosid / snag "debates" can we get some grown up issues to talk about?
unless what really counts for you is the # comments on a given post.
thanks for the vote of confidence, Tzib. :-(
Even Lubavitchers are getting fed up with your non stop diatribes.What are you trying to prove, that you the 'gevorener' has picked up the hate more that the 'geboireners'?
Lubavitch has lots of toichen, only a 'chitzon' could focus 24/7 on how negative others are.Grow up.
Hey hesh! You posted many a decent post in the past. all we ask for is to continue posting serious תוכן
sorry, Tzibaleh that is.
Ah, I can continue with toichen, but who'll fight the incessant attacks?!
you may do what you please.בימים ההם אין מלך בישראל איש הישר בעיניו יעשה I just gave my opinion.
"Ah, I can continue with toichen, but who'll fight the incessant attacks?!"
but you coveniently forget the מעט אור דוחה הרבה חשך
If the only way of making Lubavitch look better is by bashing Misnagdim, go ahead.
I thought that if one wants to be higher than another, one steps up, not push the other down.
Yisroel
by bashing I mean defensive bashing, defending what is dear to you from being defamed.
Let's clean our own house first and let everyone go according to his own hashkofo until Moshiach comes. Get rid of the freaks and the crooks and then the snags look like fools when they criticize us.
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