Growing up and attending Chasidishe Farbrengens I would hear about the "Misnaged" who always thinks he's right in how learns Pshat in what he's learning. Whether it's Rashi, Teysfes, the Rambam, or any other Rishonim or Achronim that he disagrees with, it's them that didn't see it correctly. It's cute to hear once or twice but, like anything else, things get tiring after a while. Add to that the fact that you didn't think things like that happened anymore, and you've got a real yawner.
A classic story heard by me many times is the one where HaRav Yechezkel Abramski comes to the Lubavitcher Yeshivah in Lod to deliver a shiur. In the middle he mentions a Rabbeinu Chananel that seemingly disagrees with what he's saying.The good Rabbi announces boldly: "מיינט איר דאך אז רבינו חננא-ל זאגט ניט ווי מיר, ניין! ער זאגט יא ווי איך זאג". He then proceeds to show the shiur that he's correct in his Svoroh. That was a classic, because it showed them what Limud HaTeyreh can look like if it's done as a Kardum Lachpeyr, or as a way to boost one's image and self-esteem, RYA's gadlus not withstanding.
From reading up on the subject of Yeshivas in pre-war Europe one can make an interesting conclusion, that Koved HaTeyre was observed very differently. The Koved was a self-serve version, you had Koved for your own Teyre. You were to dress the part of a Choshuver Bocher because YOU were a Ben Teyre, and you were to degrade the simple folk of the town because they were Ameratzim. It was OK to call a Bocher a "Puyer" or a "Yape" or a "Terk" or a "Poroh Adumoh" because he asked a Kashe that's not to your liking, and even if a Bocher was caught up in Haskalah he was still Yeshiva material if he had "Ahavas HaTeyre."
Now, some of these attitudes have changed, for different reasons, but the underlying theme is the same. A BaaleBos has no intrinsic value other than to be a Yeshiva funder. If he's a Machshiv Teyre and spends time learning himself then he does earn some value, but only minimal, (and only if he dishes out $100,000 for an eidem.) Recently though, the Lithuanian Yeshiva world has morphed into "Chassidim without Shtraymlech", and if I were once part of that world I wouldn't be happy either. Amohl, when a Bocher came to you with a Hamlotzoh from a Choshuve Rov, and you tested him, and he didn't pass the exam with flying colors, it was normal to call that Rov an AmHoretz. Today there is one opinion on all issues, issued by 1-2-3 Rabbonim, and all others must fall in line.
What Rabbi Kamenecki wants to do is to bring back the old attitudes of the Roshei Yeshiva and that of Yeshivaleit not needing to answer to one opinion of one Rabbinic body. Every lamden can have his opinion, both in Inyonei Hashkofoh and in learning, and anybody that differs with him can be an Amihoretz. Maybe that's what we need now in Charedi society, a shakeup of monumental proportions with a good earthshattering Machlaykes on the side.
40 comments:
P.S.
there is no intention to defame Reb Boruch Ber, The Rogatchover, The Chofetz Chaim or Reb Chaim Brisker.
אפשר קענסטו מאכען א ניגון דערפון
H. T. if you don’t want to defame lomdei torah then write about beis horav how THEY flirted with haskalah and boasted about themselves by claiming that don’t use toirah as kardom lachpor because they don’t learn , they only farbrang Idioit: you are exposing lubavitch by writing on the www what is being said on farbrangens
I didn't say I don't want to defame Lomdei Torah, Louie Finkelstein also was a Lomed Torah and wrote his chiddushim on shabbos. I said I don't want to defame the above-pictured Rabbonim.
As far as "exposing" what's spoken at Farbrengens, Halevai there would be more.
Little me must be a 'farbiseneh menaged' bacause for the life of me, I don't understand what is wrong with R'Chatzkel Abramsky saying that Rabeinu Chananel that appears to contradict his thinking is not so.Do you think R'Chatzkel 'made' up 'boich sevoros' without talmudic proof?
Do you think the R'YATZ took him to be rosh yeshiva in a Lubavitcher yeshiva in Russia because he was an ignoramus?
It's a pity that you are so unfamiliar with talmudic discourse, to realize that your example is very foolish
monkey:
I would ask you to stop passing judgement on my knowledge of discourse.
The point is that he makes sure he's right here, and how he goes about saying he's right. That seems to be a very important point. I know all Reb Chezkel (not Chatzkel as you say) and his short stay in Lubavitch, but that's way beside the point.
I don't get it.
A few posts before you wrote that "I choose not to believe the story, for the Kovod of the Brisker Rov." - but here you are ready to believe it. Why are you treating RYA worse than the BR ? It seems that you are and some others are ready to stereotype all Litvishe, en masse, with learning as "a Kardum Lachpeyr, or as a way to boost one's image and self-esteem". Granted there are some, maybe many like that, at least sometimes. But to jump from there to holding that all Litvishe learning is in that category ? Are you saying that no Lubavitchers ever learn as "a Kardum Lachpeyr, or as a way to boost one's image and self-esteem" ?
C
the story attributed to the BR is an embarrassment to him and his knowledge of Teyre. The story of RYA makes light of one aspect, not c"v his gadlus B'teyre uVeyiras Shomayim.
while you ramble plenty; this too is one where you are not coherent.
and the charge that you make here, seems to be inncurate today as it was probably not fully accurate 50 60 80 100 years ago.
Take a look at most publications of these talmidey chachomim and you will not see a fraction of the diatribe invented from the mentors at these farbengens who created a lot of sinas yisroel (though i agree that it takes two to tango):
turn the pages of these seforim and you will not find any of them saying "rashi...tossefos..." are wrong, NOT ONE! it's all figment of imagination of these dreamers to make other jews look bad....
there maybe many different charges as to some of their observance by some of those bochurim in the times of precommunism and thereafter; but by the same token many from chassidim and chabad chassidim diminished their ranks...look the claim is that there were 600,000 chassidim to the TT where are they? Lucky that the Rashab made TT (and it's interesting to really know if there were not "Dropouts" from that system).
In any event, there is no need to make false accuations and invent some pseudofictional claims to bring more divisiveness; after all by doing that you are doing the opposite of what the Rebbe asked of chassidim: to unite all Jews. But i forgot...that only applies to the JEws in 5th ave....
vml
you're writing anonymously now?
anonymous
we're relating actual stories here, attended by people still with us, who related these stories.
If you'd like you can say that these attitudes have changed somewhat, but don't deny that they exist. Of course you won't find them in the seforim, they're done b'peh.
I tell you that "hoemess eyd leatzmoy" you can look up for yourself and verify whether your claims are true. You can open up hundreds of seforim and periodicals from these people in the past hundred years and you'll not see more than 2.5 % saying that the pshat of a rishon is "wrong".
As for the "torah shebaasl peh": !0 things are taken out of context, 2) the people who aer still with us (and may be with us for 180 years) have a big axe to grind and they mananged to perpetuate a stupid enmity when it was not necessary (and as said there are many in the pther side who good companions to these fellows who also want to perpetuate the stupid fights...but there are others who would like to put that stupid past on a side where there are more burning issues, areas where there can be unity and so on....
Stop bringing more hatred stop educating the new generation to have contempt at other jews...
bpunbound
are we speaking of the "rusty nail" newspaper?
Is this story about R. Abramsky worse than misleading at least 2 generations of maaminim bnei maaminim that moshiach would DEFINITELY appear in their lifetime? At least two Lubavitcher Rebbes were 'guilty' of that.
All these stories trying to besmirch talmidei chachomim of a different persuasion are as petty and childish as 12 year olds arguing about their favourite baseball teams.
"A BaaleBos has no intrinsic value other than to be a Chabad House funder. If he's a Machshiv Shluchim and spends time on hafotza, then he does earn some value, but only minimal, (and only if he dishes out $100,000 for an eidem on shlichus.)"
Are we really that different?
Boruch
cute but totally untrue.
Maybe slightly exaggerated but quite true, from my experience. Our kids are given the impression that either you become a shaliach or a g'vir. Those in the middle of of no value.
it is true that shlichus is the priority, but not at the expense of the parents who need to support the "Tchatchke" who's learning.
You run into problems in any system when the "priority" is clearly unattainable by the majority. For Litvaks it's everyone learning full time, for us, it's everyone on shlichus.
Different priorities for sure, but both systems will suffer from similar problems.
Hirshel, this whole thing with RY"A is totally overblown & based on hearsay. Do you know EXACTLY what he said? is it on tape? Did he have a sense of humor, & that is why he he said what he said in stead of saying the expected he said "מיינט איר דאך אז רבינו חננא-ל זאגט ניט ווי מיר, ניין! ער זאגט יא ווי איך זאג".
to compare the Shlichus priority to perpetual Kolel priority is ludicrous. Every yungerman CAN go on shlichus, maybe not to the place of his liking, but he can do Shlichus work. Staying in Kolel forever is impossible for most people, and to force those who want a decent bocher who will learn for their daughter (because their daughter was taught in bais Yakkov to marry such a bocher) to fork 100,000 for this bocher'el is assinine. Especially since his genius Rosh Yeshiva told him so.
How many stay in kolel 'forever'?
Talk about sina'as chinom.This blog should get the 'marbeh sinoh beyisroel award'
of course they don't stay forever, because they can't. Then the Kolel/Mashgiach/Tutor has to marry off his daughter but he can't a boy who wants lets than $100,000! We're talking about a man who doesn't have $100!
Elkono
You should get the "comments without thinking" award.
Snag: You said "Is this story about R. Abramsky worse than misleading at least 2 generations of maaminim bnei maaminim that moshiach would DEFINITELY appear in their lifetime? At least two Lubavitcher Rebbes were 'guilty' of that."
If that's misleading then generations of snags are guilty of telling their adherents that Moshiach will be a Malach who'll materialize somehow from the sky, not Chas Vesholom a human being.
"then generations of snags are guilty of telling their adherents that Moshiach will be a Malach who'll materialize somehow from the sky, not Chas Vesholom a human being".
an example of not existent hyperbole and cause of stupid hatred between jews. Where in heaven have you heard that the "snags" have told their "adherents" that moshiach will be a "malach" that will materialize from the sky? It's all a figment of your and your colleagues imagination. They have for years had the same emunah pshutah as all yidden that moshaich will be a human being that will appear on the horizon and redeem us. an other example of unnecessary false accuations and educating the new generation on false hatred and contempt for other jews.
anonymous
continue dreaming. I grew up amongst them, so don't tell me.
i also grew up amogst them...and i also saw and heard a lot about them...i also know people from their presuaion *first hand* experience and the amonut of hyperbole and lh said about them similar to your is mindboggling (just as many LH said by them about us in some things..."it takes two to tango")
Anonymous
until the Rebbe "publicized" the Rambam in Hilchos Melochim people would say "zei zogen az a mentsh ken zein Moshiach!" then they started to argue that "how can you say on someone that went to college that he's Moshiach?" etc.
HT,
The Rambam in Hilchos Malochim also states that Mishiach must be from the living... So why is the Rambam still applicable?
I know that Krechts, I'm speaking of many years ago, when that Rambam was applicable.
With all due respect dear HT, this is again a defamation and loshon Horoh, despite that the one who usurped in it is a choshuver yid:
1) # 1 what they say was: how can you say with certainty on someone from this generation before it happens;
2) and you took a step further on this defamation saying that they said "vi ken a mentch" implying that they meant a malach; when they said "of a mentch fun undzer dor..." (whose meaning is #1) but to take from this to say that they meant that it is a "malach" is poshut sheker vechozov.
when in reality whenever they speak about it...it is and was like the plain and poshuter people with emunoh pshutoh unalduterated from the yiddishe neshomo: that MKoshiach "ben Dovid" a man will laiz us oyss!
anonymous
you speak untruths, it was not so, and I cannot stress it enough!
HT: The Oifen Hamiskabel at one stage of the Moshiach Campaign was "just" to educate the world that moshiach can be a man from this jeneration (somethig that evrey Puhsete yid believed in)but it served the rebbe well at that stage to say a lie about yiden ,to silence The Non-yet Miskablim That he is just educating the public about an unknown Rambam,and next stage was to point out Who that Man is, so went the brainwashig Proceses on each Indindividual or group, so the rebbe lied about yiden because it served his goal
anonymous
you're a liar and a coward, and that cannot be said enough. I was around, argued with tons of people, and "chapped Bushos" enough to know that you're lying to serve your purpose, but I'm used to people like you doing that.
HT,
just to inform:
i'm not the anonymous before this last message.
so why not choose a name?
HT: you Chaaped Bushos because you didn't listen to the Rebbe ,to float the next snipet of an idea Boifen Hamiskabel and then be ready to retract fast before you Chaped the Bushos,Sad someone who he is ready to give you Bushos will unlikly be a Mekabel from you, You were hurting the campaign ,it could be that you ruined me ,so your'e the cow..or the tzig
ANONYMOUS
I have no idea what you just said.
HT wrote:
until the Rebbe "publicized" the Rambam in Hilchos Melochim people would say "zei zogen az a mentsh ken zein Moshiach!
Anonymous said...
HT: The Oifen Hamiskabel at one stage of the Moshiach Campaign was "just" to educate the world that moshiach can be a man from this jeneration (somethig that evrey Puhsete yid believed in)but it served the rebbe well at that stage to say a lie about yiden ,to silence The Not-yet Miskablim that he is just educating the public about an unknown Rambam,and the next stage was to point out Who that Man is, so went the brainwashig Proceses on each Indindividual or group, so the rebbe lied about yiden NOT knowing a Pushete Rambam, because it served his goal
"HT wrote: you're a liar and a coward, and that cannot be said enough. I was around, argued with tons of people, and "chapped Bushos" enough to know that you're lying to serve your purpose, but I'm used to people like you doing that.
Anonymous said...
HT: you Chaaped Bushos because you didn't listen to the Rebbe ,to float the next snipet of an idea Boifen Hamiskabel and then be ready to retract fast before you Chaped the Bushos,Sad someone who he is ready to give you Bushos will unlikly be a Mekabel from you, You were hurting the campaign ,it could be that you ruined me ,so your'e the cow..or the tzig
Thanks for reposting what you wrote, now I can be baffled twice.
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