HIGHLIGHTS OF THE SHIUR
1) RAK of Kletzk-Lakewood was his father's "bosom buddy from Slabodka"
2) His father was planning to move to Israel in 1956 and retire there. Had he done that and not been convinced otherwise by a Gynecologist friend of his from Slabodka "he would've taken over the leadership of the Charedi sector of Orthodox Jewry."
3) Lithuanians never hid their humanity from the people. "The basic doctrine of of Lita was not to hurt anybody even if it meant to allow someone to say that the world is millions of years old.
4) Had he moved to Israel in '56 neither Slifkin's nor Kamenecki's books would've been banned.
5) Based on science and the moon landing the Rambam was wrong in Hilchos Kiddush Hachodesh. He took his opinions from Greek Scholars therefore if science proves otherwise today the Rambam was wrong!
6) If we believe that the world is 5766 years old then "we're in big trouble."
7) The Gedolim who banned his book are in essence saying that if we know the truth about the sages of the previous generations then we're making them smaller. I say that was their greatness, despite their humanity they became great!
8) R' Chaim Kanievsky said אין פורענית בא לעולם אלא בשביל ישרא-ל , I say that if so why couldn't G-d kill only 20, 000 Asians, why 200,000? why not kill Arabs or Germans who have it coming to them?, "there was Hashgochoh in the Tsunami but not like the gedolim say to warn the Jews. Bemechilas Kvod Torosom!"
9) ,דברי תורה עניים במקומם ועשירים במקום אחר Torah , which is poor in Bereishis, is not explained clearly in Bereishis, has become rich through Science. We can understand Torah by learning science....
Those nice boys at YU seemed a bit shocked at the concept of Goyim being punished just to warn the Jews. It doesn't go well with some of the secular studies they do, I guess.
48 comments:
Should I be worried if I agree with some of those???
From your punctuation it seems that I should be...
well, not all of it is troubling, some of it is just hallucinations. So, if you like you too can hallucinate.
My take on your highlights:
1. Don't care, but it would be no surprise - they were on the same page.
2. Whatever.
3. I'm choking on that one.
4. Well it couldn't have made it worse...
5. I might agree with him here.
6. I might agree with him here as well...
7. I definitely agree with that one.
8. He lost me altogether on that one.
9. I wouldn't agree with him totally, but I think I do partially...
CE
you're a wimp. If you agree just say you do.
Then you too will be ostracized, banned, excommunicated and just plain shunned by all.
HT,
I said what I meant.
When I was unclear it was because I don't necessarily agree with the exact statement (or your interpretation of it).
what good is coming out of your website? that is not a rhetorical question....friends are disrepectful to each other..loshen hora is promulgated...employers are ripped off because your site is being viewed on their time and list goes on...I bet that you'll ignore this question....
EMPLOYERS? I don't know anybody that works for a living.
חכמת התכונה came a long way from the times of the Rambam. in gemoro there is an example of הודו חכמי ישראל לחכמי האומות
Tzibaleh
Was there any "hodu chachmei yisroel" here?
can somebody clarify why it's ok to say that the world is millions of years old?
I'm sure there's been lots of conversation, especially regarding Slifkin, that dealt with it. I just missed it, or I wasn't interested then.
Does the Rebbe address this at all?
This seems a bit silly to me. Let me use Reb Yoel Kahn's statement to make my point:
When man landed on the moon there were certain Chassidic leaders that said that the moon landing is a fake since the possuk says "Hashomayim Shomayim L'Hashem, V'Haaretz nosan livnei Adam," and also since we say in kiddush levana, "kshem sheani roked kenegdeich v'eino yochol lingoa boch"... therefore it is impossible for man to land on the moon.
(The Rebbe clearly did not take that approach). I heard R' Yoel say that this approach is anti-chassidus - since the primary element of chassidus is truth... so, if the truth gets in the way of your "belief" than you have left the path of torah and chassidus. Truth will only confirm Torah, and the only possible explanation for a Torah-truth conflict is that the interpretation was incorrect.
Curious:
The answer to that question is a little complex, and I'm not a physics major but it comes down to relative time. See here:
Genesis and the Big Bang Theory : The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible
by Gerald Schroeder
Link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553354132/sr=1-1/qid=1138826701/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7253514-0728042?%5Fencoding=UTF8
CE
that's a lot of writing to say nothing, if you'll excuse me. Demagoguery at its best.
What does the moon landing have to do with the age of the world? why must we believe that the translation of the Posuk you mentioned is that man cannot land on the moon?
Believeing in the the age of the world is also voluntary?
Curious:
Only the second post of mine there was directed to your question directly.
However, the general rule of the moon landing is applicable to all cases, if you use your brain.
please explain how the rule is applicable to the earth's age.
As far as the age of the universe is concerned, I refer you the book above.
But to humor you I will apply the klal to the prat:
If it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (some doubt will always remain - thus, I specifiy reasonable doubt) that the earth is let's say a billion years old, then the klal above would be applied to say:
We have a scenario where Torah seems to conflict with the facts; it must be that our understanding of either 1. Torah or 2. the Facts are incorrect.
Now it happens that Schreoder, in his books, demonstrates how both science and Torah happen to be 100% correct in their literal interpretation (based on the law of relativity, which is too long a conversation to have right here).
So, the point being, that if someone holds that the earth is millions of years old (like the Tiferes Yisroel for example) that should not be considered herectical, and if it is considered so, we are in big trouble... for we have ceased to be seekers of truth - and we have become just another group of people controlled by the thought police.
stop with the comparisons to Thought police, please. Nobody's telling you what to think, they're telling you if your thoughts are OK with Torah thought.
Uh, hello? That's what all thought police claim to be saying (in their own way).
The puritan thought police said it was in the name of the Bible. The communist thought police said it was for the betterment of society or whatever. But all thought police claim a high moral ground.
But what I am saying is that if it's not actually contrary to Torah (all the cases I'm speaking about) then there is a problem - and the holy rollers are doing G-d and Torah a disservice.
The Torah is the thought police here, the question is are these opinions in line. Nobody's interrogating you or sending you to gulags.
Would anyone know please where the Maaseh with Mayer Refaels is printed (hebrew or english)? I really need it thanx!
try Kerem Chabad vol.4, IIRC.
yasher koach
is it anywhere online or can someone post pleae?
very important
Schorcha Harbe Meod
Curious,
You have missed my point consistantly throught.
Good luck to you.
Hirshel,
You have yet to comnment officially here (except yo call me a wimp :-). What is you poition on points 1-9?
soon enough, CE, soon enough.
CE
1) I think the context of who we're speaking of here makes "bosom buddy" an insult.
2) I think he's overestimating his father a wee bit. In Israel he would've been totally ignored. There guys like him are a dime a dozen. That he stayed in America was his best move ever.
3) I fully agree, at least till the mussar movement started.
4) With the little influece he would've had we can highly doubt that claim.
5) I got problems with people saying that the Rambam "was wrong". Maybe it's a Lubavitch thing.
6) I don't see the trouble in believing that, but maybe it's me.
7) Greatness is relative.
8) Vos veis Ich.
9) Puke!
HT,
That was a wimpy answer...
;-)
what about that was wimpy, BIG GUY?
Please correct me if I'm wrong -it seems we match up as follows:
1) I don't care - you find it an insult.
I don't think it's an insult, and although it's probably an exaggeration, who cares? I think they were both on the same page on most matters.
2) Doesn't really matter to me - you find it an exaggeration, and false.
Who knows? Since it didn't happen we'll never know, but I suspect you're right. Nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with a son thinking overly highly of his father - so it doesn't bother me.
3) I think it is an outrages claim, but you say you fully agree..at least till the mussar movement started.
You agree with him or me? This claim that the Litvishe were so supremely noble is both an insult to chassidim and revisionist history. Yes, the Livishe did not give their leaders the same elevated status as chassidim, but they were not more honest about themselves to the masses... please gimme a break.
4) We agree. But the claim bothers you more than it bothers me.
5) Was the Rambam right? Why do you think it is a slight to the Rambam if he based a statement on the science of time, which we have found to be faulty? It is not like we're saying the Rambam wasn't a Tzaddik or one of the greatest leaders of all time. There are many examples of examples of chochomin saying that previous chochomim were mistaken about a fact - so what? The Chasam Sofer writes this clearly, and it shouldn't be seen as an outrage - the Rambam didn't know how to use the internet either, big deal.
6) We surely agree on the age of the universe. Where we might disagree is that you might say it's kefira if one were to say the world is a million years old. There I agree with the Rabbi, and I think that if we are so unable to tolerate another view, than we ARE in big trouble.
7) I agree with him, but I don't know what you feel about it. I think that being honest about Chochomin does not make them smaller; it often makes them greater. They are not these one dimensional caricatures that they are portrayed to be, and I am very glad to know that -i wish that was more commonly realized.
8) I vehemently disagree, and you don't know. I am shocked that you find this as resonable logic. He lost me here.
9) I agree somewhat, you disagree. I think you are stuck on the man and not the message - It is a primary Chassidic tenet to find how the world displays the greatness of HKB"H and Torah. If we would understand more, we would understand G-d's greatness even more. That seems to me to be what the point here really is.
Your turn.
3) I agree with him. Once the Mussar movement started the Mashgiach started giving shmussen about Koved HaTeyreh and such so the Roshei Yeshives had new-found Daas Teyreh, they could do now wrong. A story is told about Reb Lazer Gordon of Telz who, after being complained to by his Talmidim about changes in the Yeshivah comparable to the Slabodka yeshiva said the following: Why are you comparing us to Slabodka? There they're all "kletzer" who have no mind of their own. If Reb Nota Hirsh Finkel would tell them to jump off a bridge they would all do it! Here in Telz every Bocher has his own opinion. At that time Telz had no Mussar.
6) The Rambam was not a believer in quack Science, I don't think he believed the world was flat. To say that he was fooled is somewhat sacrelige. Besides, don't we believe that he wrote his seforim with Ruach HaKeydish?
8) I specifically said "Vos Veis Ich", meaning that I do not know, and they probably do not either.
I guess we sorta agree on the rest.
As to these three...
3. We disagree. Let me turn it around this way:
Are Litvaks (pre-Mussar) more honest about themselves than anyone else? If yes, than you agree with him. In not, than you agree with me.
I don't think they were more immune to ego...
6. You call it quack-science, I call it the best conventional wisdom of the time, and not contradictory to Torah.
For example, when establishing the lunar cycles the Rambam clearly states that it is taken from secular science and the goal is to fulfill the Torah's kiddush ha-chodesh requirements. The point was not the details, the point was the end result. For our purposes the end-result works, so he was comfortable using it - I, however, am pretty confident that if he lived today we would probably accept Copernicus' system (http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Science/Copernicus.htm). And we are not required, nor should we believe that every word must always be divine inspiration. If you do think so, a thinking person will have many great unnecessary unanswerable questions. This is not kefira - and i refer you again to Reb Yoel's comments above.
Also interesting:
http://www.zootorah.com/essays/jumpingelephant.pdf
And finally
8) I don't you what you mean by vos veis ich here - My problem was with his logic. How can he say that it is illogical to "punish the Asians to send Jews a message." I think that is a foolish quote, and it shows a lack of understand that is frightening.
G-d is not so simple minded; He runs the word perfectly.
Now, when G-d punishes it is not like He gets upset and punishes indiscriminately. Rather, His middos ha-din judge and many elements are taken into consideration, none of which we are privy to. There is also a message to klal Yisroel in every act, although we may not grasp it all the time - nevertheless, if we accept that Yisroel is "reishis" and the purpose for all, it is completely logical that he sends us a message in every act. it His reasons for making that message in Asia, are based on elements known only to Him - and it is irrelevant that He didn't do it in Germany, France or Iran.
Re #3 - I agree with HT basically (that's not to say Litvishe velt was 100% perfect, maybe his word 'never' is too strong), however, I don't know that it's correct to blame it all, if at all, on mussar. We see now that mussar is shvach and yet that is going strong, after all. How about blaming it on Chassidization of some of the 'Litvishe' velt - or perhaps I should say 'Chagasization' or a combination of Chassidization and Chagasization ?
"2) I think he's overestimating his father a wee bit. In Israel he would've been totally ignored. There guys like him are a dime a dozen. That he stayed in America was his best move ever."
Totally ignored ? I don't think so. Maybe staying in America helped him have more talmidim, but I think he would have been a big-league star in EY too.
8) I think that davka people like that see G-d doing everything logically without needing to be reassured that "we don't understand it, but that's how it should be." For the holocaust they say that it was very clear punishment for the sins of Chilul Shabbos and lack of Taharas hamishpochoh. Others will say that it was for the sin of Zionism. When asked "what about the million children "shelo To'amu Taam Cheit"?" they will quote Midroshim that say that when he punishes G-d does so without making a distiction between good and evil. So why now is it so perplexing for them to understand it? Maybe it's old sins K'lapey Sh'mayo that these seemingly innocent Asians are being punished for, not to mention that many are idol-worshippers?
C
Big league star in EY if:
1) he lives to 95 which he did.
2) He remains active in politics.
Otherwise he'd be no different than, say, Reb Shmuel Rozowski or Reb Lazer Yudel, or Reb Zalmen Sorotzkin, who, although they were famous and well-respected, didn't have much of an impact on the mindset of Ch'redi society.
HT,
Do we still disagree on #8?
He said that we cannot asribe reasons to G-d, and it is illogical for us to assume their is a message in his actions.
I said that there is always a message, although we may not always know what it is.
And I think his logic is terrible when he says that it makes no sense for the Tzunami to be a mesasage since G-d should have had better targets, etc.
First you said you don't know, and now you say you do know, but I'm not sure which side you're on.
no, CE
at first I said "Vos Veis Ich", which basically means don't bother me. Then, once I got intestinal fortitude to express myself, I said what I feel. Capisce?
HT,
No poblem, but which side do you fall on?
CE
who's falling here?
Gevaldig! Some of you guys & some of your posts ממש took away my thunder. I was זוכה to מלאכתו נעשית ע"י אחרים
Ok HT,
Which side do you stand on?
And what about the other points?
Tzibaleh
which guys and which posts?
אלע מוזען דא ארבעטען
well i was away from the אינטרוועש for a while so it happened. אבער ח"ו איך זאג זיך ניט אף פון ארבייטען
Tzibaleh,
What was said that you wanted to say as well?
?ריינע אונטערוועש אדער ניט-ריינע
!! אוודאי ריינע people who frequent your תוכנדיגע website.....
CE
I agree wholeheartedly with you on # 8. I do believe that Kamenecki is way overboard and had he been a Lubavitcher he would've been excommunicated long ago. I guess his Yichus helped him somewhat.
So, HT, do we still disagree on any of those points? If yes, which ones?
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