Monday, January 11, 2010

you wish

Reb Avrohom Hirsh Kamai HyD with Yeshivah bachurim - Photo Source

You people out there seem to think that somehow Chabad has changed, deliberately so. That they've left the path of their ancestors and created a new Chabad. Which is why guys like "An Ailemisher" will announce that the fact that by two hours after Motzoei Shabbos there was no post about chof daled teves means that Chabad has no connection to Lubavitch of today. That the Alter Rebbe means nothing to Chabad. Not that it's the only "proof" you have. There also the fact that the AR says to daven shacharis for 1.5 hours daily, and no chabad minyan does that! I think that Rav Wolfson's minyan does carry on that tradition, if my memory serves me correctly. Then, of course, guys that comment here often will tell you that the focus deliberately shifted to outreach, and that no longer is emphasis placed on matters of the heart, meaning avodah and such. And the so-called list goes on. I'm not here to argue the facts, but I will you tell this much; look inward, my friends and then point fingers. Just as you righteous dudes always tell me to do.

The fact is that today's yiddishkeit is merely a shell of what it once was. Nobody would readily admit to that for obvious reasons, but a little scratching of the surface will easily attest to that fact. The fact that American Jewry is seen as a group of Novol B'reshus HaToyreh'nikkes is opgeredt, but even Europeans and Israelis are no better. Most Jews, however, have an easier time covering it up, thought, and very often that's all it takes - trappings. A young chossid who dresses just like they did in Galicia, complete with the heavy tallis under the Rezhvulke on July Shabbos mornings in New York or Bnei Beraq, is all set - he's good to go. A yungerman who lets his sidelocks grow wild is an immediate Brisker - just like the Brisker Rov, even if he never cracked a sefer. When it comes to the Lubavitcher the probing is much deeper. No longer is it good enough to look like his zeide, and even that they doubt and question, but he needs to be on his zeide's level too, both in learning and in Avodah. And he needs to do things as the "Ailimisher" guy sees fit!

I'll never forget how one evening in Boro Park there was a conversation on 18th Avenue that I was part of that still rattles me when I think about it. We had just finished davening maariv and somehow the conversation got to Chabad and the Rebbe. This man was somewhat of a hybrid; he was a talmid of Lakewood before Reb Schneur took over, was/is a chossid of a smaller Boro Park Rebbe, yet all his kids are chasidish/ch'nyokish. So this genius was going on about Chabad, and how today's Chabad was only concerned about "giving out dollars to women," but his Rebbe (RAK) knew what the "old" Chabad was all about, and that's why he opposed it so. נישטא ווער ס'זאל לאכען. The point is this: Today's oylem HaYeshivos is but a shadow, a shell, of what it once was 90% of bachurim in yeshivos would never be accepted into the Litvishe Yeshivos 70 years ago, and the ones that are accepted have lots to learn when it comes to Havonoh, Hasmodoh and so on They have no idea what it means to lose yourself in a sugyah, and to sit in the Beis Medrash from Thursday to Sunday non-stop and just learn. The same goes for the non-Chabad chassidim; don't pat yourselves on the back because of the shell, because you have the look down pat. It only goes so far, and not far enough.


SDR said...


HOCKER said...

I just dont get it why do you love to put down litvishe bochurim that you know nothing about? i scaned all so called snag websites looking for chabad bashing i did not see anything at all so why the ax to grind? cant you move on?

HOCKER said...

i loved the mishpacha interveiew of krinsky it showed that reb schach and reb aaron kotler were wrong about the lubavicher rebbe

the satmar rebbe was right just by the fact that the lubavicher spent so much time by the grave yard

need i say more ? vhamaven yovin!!!!!

chaim said...

Silly post.
Btw what is the following copied from your post: "Novol B'shaas HaToyreh'nikkes " What is a novol "bshaas hatoyreh"?>

Your premise about how oylem hayeshivos today is very different from amool is not true.You yourself have admitted to never being in BMG and akshened ayn, even when corrected about the correct pronunciation of the address of Brisk,Rechov PRESS ,leads me to surmise that you have never been there either.
Bkitser you are talking meoylom hatachton.
The new face of Chabad we've all seen.In light of the posting on the celebrations on fast days on youtube by YOUR ARCH ENEMY Vosizneias, Shomrei Shabbos in Boro Park was the scene of many a discussion about where and when Chabad lost their marbles.
Who do you think you can continue to fop by claiming that it's a poor meshiguem?True that breaking fasts with a feast and kidush is not a common prtactice, but the Meshichisten are not far behind.
So continue to try and convince yourself

Anonymous said...

It was nice seeing you back on 18 Avenue today! Welcome back with Brocho V'hatzlocho!

Anonymous said...

did you mean novol birshus hateyreh?


p.s. nice post

Joe in Australia said...

There are far more people in the yeshivas than there were "back in the day". Of course the average level will be lower.

Anonymous said...

I accept your argument of lubavitch being as crazy as they are today even before the 6th rebbe.

orthodoxjew said...

reb boruch ber exposed chabad back than so i agree lubavitch has not changed they have always been like that

orthodoxjew said...

i guess hoker means the 7th rebbe was a lon bbais hakevoros

AH said...

You are so off that i don't know where to start. I'll just touch on a few yishma chchom vyosef...

The main difference between today's chabad and all other chasiddus (satmar, belz, ger, skver, bobov, sanz etc.) is all about "Lifestyle". The typical chabad couple lives a complete "american" lifestyle complete with secular entertainment (TV, movies, sports) social interaction between men/women, boys/girls etc. and last but not least is Tznios/Levush.

All other chasiddus live a complete yidishe lifestyle.

The heart and soul is missing by ALL, at least "firt men zich oif vi a yid nisht vi a goy"

Friendly Anonymous said...

The neshomos of today's generation are on a lower level than the neshomos of previos generations (hence the term "ikvesa" in relation to where our neshomos stand in Odom Horishon's neshomo).

schneur said...

Of course you are correct. Everything changes even Charedi Judaism, although they do not admit it as my yeshiva principal's constant refrain (he was a Lubavitcher) Judaism never changes ! I bet .
But there is change and there is change.
Was there a time when Chabad had no rebbe as an institutional doctrine (No not the period between Mahrash and The Rashab)..
That Reb Tzig is a change of major proportions .
It's like the Lakewood yeshiva decalring that from here on in they would no longer have any toshe yeshiva and the yungeleit could stay home and be eidemer af kest in Flatbush and the 5 Towns.
Next of course Lubavitch had a Messianic component , but in all honesty a good part of present day Lubavitch thinking and behavior is predicated on the assuption that the last rebbe is mashiach ad sof kol hadeyres. Now thats a change ! Imagine lakewood eclaring that Reb Aron Kotler is the Mashiach ad sof kol hadeyres ? and that developing into a major part of lakewood doctrine.

Outreach , meyfsim chitzonius etc those one can explain as legitimate change (does not mean that it makes many comfortable, but its normal change)

gizt said...

This post and the comments are a perfect example of you doing the exact opposite of your objective - "provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing ".
The comments are way way more convincing than your post.
Do you really think that the changes in klal yisroel in general even come close to the changes in chabad?
The changes in klal yisroel are changes due to the yeridas hadoros. The changes in chabad (that bother people) are changes due to major changes in hashkafa.
And the probing by lubavitch does not need to be any deeper than by anybody else: Lubavitchers of yesteryear did not wear smashed hats. They did not, for the most part, have wild and beastly looking beards (Which is why making fun of RODs peyos made no sense to me at all! His peyos look no stranger than the beards of most lubavitchers!). They were much more about the penimiyus, the CHABA"D, not the big posters and wild hoopla.
Don't be so paranoid and think that chabad is more probed. Chabad has changed alot more than anybody ever immagined.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


you and the other commenters are what proves my point over and over again. How people that are supposedly totally immersed in hashem's chochmah have none. They cannot see past the surface.

Friendly Anonymous said...

>Was there a time when Chabad had no rebbe as an institutional doctrine (No not the period between Mahrash and The Rashab)<

You should have asked the Rebbe by dollars why he wasn't grooming anyone to take over. It's a bit late to ask him now (I think).

Anonymous said...

I am not getting it with all this Chabad detractors, when the Rebbe was alive you and your friends claimed that Chabad is too much Rebbe centered,and they always argued that original chabad according to the AR letters is not a mofsim factory since he isnt a Novi as Shmuel Hanovi, so now when there no rebbe and just a theology its still no good? Why????You probably know that the only place the AR and the Miteller Rebbe discuss hiskashrus on a big scale is on Rebbes that were not alive as Reb Mendel Horodoker, and the Mamorie Histatchus. The Chabad Rebbiem left enough Torah for generations and generations to study, and let Rabonim and Mashpim take care on the flock. And for a nice Bekiche with a Capelye of fiddles you can always go to 15th ave cor 48 in Brooklyn.

Anonymous said...

" the satmar rebbe was right just by "
what exactly did the Satmar Rov say? and when?

An Ailmesher said...


It's 27 Teves and I still don't see anything about the Alter Rebbe's yahrtzeit.

Lubavitch today is more removed from the Alter Rebbe than any other frum group. The AR stressed deveikus in Hashem Yisborach, אין עוד מלבדו. Lubavitchers today think of the Rebbe all day instead. I'm sure that the average Lakewood talmid thinks more of Hashem than a Lubab. Everyone worries about chillul shem hashem. Lubabs worry about chillul shem ha'rebbe and chillul shem Lubavitch.

Hirshel, you are wrong about Litvaks also. The average Litvak today is much better off than the average litvak before the war. The yeshivas have become the place for everyone instead of a select few, as they once were. It's similar to when R. Gamliel was removed from his nesius and they let everyone into the beis hamedrash. And in BMG elites exist today also. There are a number of world class geonim learning their full time in BMG. Of course there's no R. Baruch Ber, etc today.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you wanna hear something? crack a sefer. Open a Tanya or a Torah Or.

schneur said...

Anonymous. I do not need to argue that "its still no good" to use your phrase ,the facts on the ground bekame eyfanim verify that.
I never criticized Chabad for being Rebbe centered after all that is what Chassidus is. Meyfsim are another thing.
But the issue is not the critics or myself , why must critics always attack in a personal way without talking about the issues ? the issue is whats going on in many dimensions meta physical and physical.
Finally Neither I or many other people give eyzoth to the Belzer, Zviller, or Gerer Chassidim , as these grooups and other such groups "mishen zich nit in yenems eysakim", but since Chabad gets involved in jewish issues of all sorts and claims to be a Klala Israel group, then outsiders have a right to their opinon.Ot is it only a one way street. If you guys can tell a shul in Yehupatz what Nusach to daven and what name to use and who to make "chief rabbi"then we can give advise to you too.

gizt said...

"you and the other commenters are what proves my point over and over again. How people that are supposedly totally immersed in hashem's chochmah have none. They cannot see past the surface."
I know you tried to insult me there, but you insult yourself worse. Lets avoid the petty name calling and stick to the topic.
(Agav, I am not supposedly immersed in hashems chochmah.)
Anyhow, please, stick to the point. Answer the questions. Or do you just not have an answer?
Are ROD's peyos really more unsightly than a lubavitcher in torn jeans, t-shirt and caveman beard?
Was the Rebbe the last in Chabad who had reshus to trim his growth?
Can you really compare bachurim in litfish yeshivos not being on the same darga as 70 years ago to most Chabdniks not knowing what chabad is about at all in the first place?
Do you honestly believe that an am ho'orets with a shtreimel and a beck is as shocking as one of the most intelectual chassidusin becoming all about billboards,flags and street signs?