Monday, March 14, 2011

BOOK REVIEW - "THE REBBE" (part I)


Review : The Rebbe by Rabbi Dovid Meisels , Lakewood ; Israel Book Shop, 2010.

Reviewed by Schneur. Welcome Back, Schneur. We hope to hear lots more from you.


This book represents another first in Orthodox publications in the U.S. An English language biography of the Satmarer Rebbe, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who died in 1979 (I will refer to him as RJT ). Although the late Yosef Weisshaus published a book called "The Rebbe" in English about the Satmarer Rebbe in 2008, it was more of a compilation of Minhagim and hashkafos of the Rebbe , rather than an attempt at a full scale biography of the Rebbe. There have also been several academic articles about the Rebbe in English, including an important one by Rabbi Alan Nadler in Judaism Magazine. What makes an English language biography of RJT unusual is the fact that he was a vocal opponent of the use of the English language by his followers and insisted that they speak Yiddish, thus one is left with the impression that this book is not aimed at the Satmarer community nor at those Hungarian kehilloth in orbit around Satmar like Kashau, Pupa or Krasna. They too have adopted a hard line against the use of the English language. Hence the biography is aimed at those sectors of the Orthodox community who use English and are capable of reading a long English book, most likely the book is aimed at the so-called "Yeshivishe" community, which in recent years has a shown a new sympathy to the Satmarer Rebbe's position on Zionism and Israel, (probably based on the sympathy the Brisker school has to anti-Zionism) although they continue to reject his positions on Yiddish, Derech Halimmud (Talmudic methodology) and issues of Tzeniuth, (Modesty) as these would necessitate life style changes and a different course of religious studies. which obviously they are not interested in doing.

The author Rabbi Meisels has published any number of pamphlets in English about various Jewish holidays and customs which have in general been ignored by the Orthodox Jewish community. His grandfather was the alte Vaitzener Rov of Chicago who was a cousin of the Satmar Rebbe. The title pages informs us that the book was not actually written by the author in English but was translated by Reb Yirmiyahu Cohen who has been identified as an American Neturei Karta ("Natruna," actually - HT) activist. As most historically important personalities RJT was a complex character. This volume emphasizes his war against Zionism and the State of Israel and his role in creating a powerful and strong Chasidic community in the US. The volume also depicts his early life and family background as well as his life in Rumania (Satmar changed political designations in the 20th century going between Hungary and Rumania) prior to World War 2. The most interesting part of the book is the depiction of the efforts of RJT in building the Satmar community in the US after his arrival here in 1947. With a fair amount of detail the author depicts the Satmar schools, summer camps, kashruth organization, Yeshivoth, girls schools and the community of Kiryath Joel, all created by RJT We are introduced to the problems the Rebbe faced such as the loss of religious behavior by many of the Concentration Camp survivors even those from Hungary. Rabbi Meisels does not refrain from mentioning that the Rebbe, whose motto was the refrain of the Chasam Sopher "Chodosh Assur Min haTorah," (New innovations are forbidden by the Torah) actually himself introduced significant modifications in the communal structure. thus he introduced secular studies in the Satmar elementary schools and later even in high schools. More importantly he created schools for girls , something that not only did not exist in greater Hungary prior to 1944, but was fought by the Rebbe and other Chasidic gedolim like the Belzer Rav in Galicia. Yet the Rebbe was adept enough to sense that America was different than Rumania or Hungary and secular studies were required here an dwomen needed some form of formal Jewish education.

Of course he faced opposition here , but his personality was so dominant that he overwhelmed men like the the Krasner Rav, Rabbi Hillel Lichtenstein, and other kanoim who opposed anything new except for modern technology. The author also introduces us to the Rebbe's key assistants, men like R. Lippa Friedman , Sender Deutsch (I i wish he discussed his role in more detail) Mr. Hertz Frankel, and R. Yudel Rosenberg, who ran the Satmar summer camps and Matzo bakeries. R. Meisels also details the Rebbe's opposition to Zionism and to the state of Israel in detail. By now we all know about RJT's attitude agaisnt Zionism and Israel, so there is little new here. While Meisels stresses the role the Gimmel Shevuoth played in forming the Rebbe's ideological basis for this policy, he does not really detail the theoretical aspects of this thinking. Nor does he present an even handed depiction of a very lively debate concerning the halachic status of the Gimmel Shevuoth with gedolim taking various positions. He seems to be unaware that the chozer Rav Yoel Kahan wrote a refuation of the position of RJT. What is clear though is that the position of the Satmarer Rebbe and his Hungarain Rabbinic associates was not the universally accepted position at any time and certainly was a Daas Yachid after the brutal destruction of European Jewry by the Germans between 1939- 1945. Clearly after 1945 the Belzer Rav, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, the Gerrer Rebbe and others dropped their opposition to the idea of Israel and sought to work to create a Jewish basis for the state. [I was looking at the new biography of Rav Lopian called REB ELAH, and it states that Rav Lopian held those who did not vote in municipal elections responsible for the decress of Mixed swimming pools in Jerusalem.] R. Meisels does discuss the Rebbe's rescue in 1944 . On page 114 he attributes the Rebbe's rescue to the fact that the mother of the Zionist leader, Dr. Fischer,, appeared to to him in a dream and ordered him to rescue the Rebbe, which meant including him on the list of those to be included in the Kasztner transport. It ought to be noted that this whole project was a Zionist sponsored project and Fischer, Kasztner and other were all Zionist leaders.

MORE SHORTLY, אי"ה

92 comments:

Anonymous said...

In short yet another hagiography and I'm not sure why you're giving it this much space.

Any mention of Krole, his battles with Belz, Klausenburg and Lubavitch, Kastner's role in his resuce, his estranged daughter, the violence of his thugs?

With respect, the chozer is hardly a household name and carries even less weight that the original Vayoel Moshe.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Although the late Yosef Weisshaus published a book called "The Rebbe" in English about the Satmarer Rebbe in 2008,"
it looks like the book review author was not on the site for awhile, since the Great Tzig mentioned it in a blog with a scan of the jacket.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

"the Great Tzig"

I like the way that sounds...

Anonymous said...

@2:37 -
Yes, after a brief look at the index (just perusing in the store), there's 2 mentions of the LR; their propangada machine still whirls..
1) Re zionism. R' Yoelish's snab at the "chasidim who had mesiras nefesh in Russia, and left it all as they became Tziyonim" (NOT a direct quote).

2) Re mivtz tefilin on fremde menschen. The שקו"ט (which is printed in LKUS vol ? as well) as to whether it's allowed. They bring the Rebbe's answer, but then what R' Yoelsih brought from the SMaG. Although I haven't looked it up, it's possible the Rebbe answered that too, but C"V to leave RYT (the book's topic) in bad standing.

So I believe the latter one may not be in just (although the first one is DAVKA LAV "Zionist" per se, as has been spilled quite some ink here and other places, vak"m).

uchony kotter 770 said...

Once Yosef Weisshaus' book is mentioned on this blog no one is ever permitted to refer to it again? Are you serious?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"chasidim who had mesiras nefesh in Russia, and left it all as they became Tziyonim"
This is a original quote from sender deutsches non original book Boitzina Kadisha which is full of lies, eventough the Mesiras Nefesh Yiden of Chabad don't need instructions from the "Shtop Genz Hungarians"
But I will write one simple rebuttal,
Sender Deutsch was at the helm of the Willi Pravda called Der Yid,(by now half of Satmar agrees to that description) they had I think 3 times, fullfledge wars with chabad, and he never ever put up that quote from Satmar Ruv, it was invented when he wrote his book, I guess he need it some hate soundbites, so he invented them.

Anonymous said...

Uchor Kotter
don't be so uptight I was kibitzing

uchony kotter said...

As a chassidic kotter I have a right to be uptight.Do you know how hard it is to get cholov yisroel milch?

snagville said...

"at the so-called "Yeshivishe" community, which in recent years has a shown a new sympathy to the Satmarer Rebbe's position on Zionism and Israel, .....although they continue to reject his positions on Yiddish, Derech Halimmud and issues of Tzeniuth, as these would necessitate life style changes and a different course of religious studies. which obviously they are not interested in doing."

You know that true Litvaks like myself (pure blood & all) don't exactly take kindly to this new breed "Yeshivish". However, I will defend them here as this comment (above) is just dripping with sarcasm.

Dr. Homer Feitelzohn said...

It's sarcastic and it happens to be true.A lot easier to be a satmerer fellow traveller than to tell your rebitzin"uptzusheren di hor," and to wear" di dike shtrimpf." The tznius fanaticism is part of the satmerer ideaology
as well.

commentator said...

Yasher koach Schneur for the fine review. I am looking forward to part two.

Everyone should watch the video of the author Yirmiyahu Cohen with a שחור anti-semite to understand where this book is coming from (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/events/20070724/videos/cohen.cfm). Evidently Cohen is a fellow obsessed with anti tzionism, although he dresses in a Yeshivishe levush, and who wants to announce it to the world.

Earlier he had issued a book with anti-zionist teachings by sedrah, so people could have anti-tzionus all year, called In the footsteps of the flock (http://www.nehora.com/products/In-the-Footsteps-of-the-Flock.html), in which he tried to blur the Litvish and Satmar positions as well.

Make no mistake, the anti-zionism is not just a small part of these books, rather it is a or the main focus. See the hatred Cohen shows when talking on the video.

Schneur is right, the book is aimed at the naive and ignorant Yeshivish, BT's, and others, who might miss the same type of works in Yiddish.

While Rav Aharon Kotler went around Eretz Yisroel before elections, campaigning for people to vote for Agudah, as opposed to the Satmar/Neturei Karta/Natruna (=NK lite) position that Cohen represents, some naive Yeshiva leit today imagine that their shita is the same as Satmar in this regard, a distortion that Cohen and his ilk are happy to propagate. The publisher is located in Lakewood. Is that just a coincidence?

The publishers website claims that the first printing sold out in one week (http://thenextpage-israelbookshop.com/2011/01/26/back-in-print-the-rebbe/). Whether it is true or not, I don't know. As I don't know how many copies were printed.

Yeshiva world news, published a similar piece (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Book+Reviews/83403/Book-On-Satmar-Rebbe-Is-Huge-Hit.html) in the guise of a 'book review'. But if you look closely you will see that the publisher, Israel bookshop, sponsors the book section of their site. So that tells you what it is worth. A paid ad.

But the main point is, CAVEAT EMPTOR, this is a book with a giant agenda, and people should be aware of it.

Anonymous said...

Also, 'The Rebbe' stam means Lubavitch, not Satmar!

Anonymous said...

Snagville
"You know that true Litvaks like myself (pure blood & all) don't exactly take kindly to this new breed "Yeshivish"
I guess you are not a brisker

Gedalya said...

Commentator,
"But the main point is, CAVEAT EMPTOR, this is a book with a giant agenda, and people should be aware of it."

Chabad inc are the definition of "agenda driven", are you saying thatevery Chabad publication or website should have this warning?
If not you are jusst as agenda driven

Anonymous said...

Commentetor
"Make no mistake, the anti-zionism is not just a small part of these books, rather it is a or the main focus. See the hatred Cohen shows when talking on the video."
People like to whitewash that the anti Zionism dogma was a occupation by RJT 24/7. This mouthpiece Cohen is going in his Rebbes footsteps.
I remember years ago seeing a sentence in a book put out by Farkas of the silver store on Lee Av. the line started, "it was afternoon and the Rebbe was thinking", so Farkas writes, as we all know what was the Rebbe thinking,if not about the Zionist.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Gedalya

right now Lubavitch published its own books

when Israel Book Shop publishes a biography you can talk

Rav lehoshia said...

I am also a true blood Litvak and we need to return to our true derech of Chibas Zion and anti kaanaus.

Anonymous said...

Gedalye
"and people should be aware of it."
because these iresponsible immature guys are putting in harms way the Am Hayoshev Betzion for their egomania of pretending to proof a failed ideology was . After realizing that true Torah veYiras Shomaim flourished in the state of Israel in a way that Klal Yisroel never saw before, despite going to national elections and despite speaking hebrew and despite taking governmental funds. They are still stuck to some ideology with no source in halacha and are Passeling every Jew outside of Kiryas yoel in Ny and Rechov Yoel in Jerusalem. everybody is Farchapt, and bought off by the Zionist, but them.

The 3 Components said...

TO Scneuer

The 3 oaths is the second component of the RJT stand against participating in a government by Jews before the coming of Mushiach,
The first component is geared for those who care to wait for Mushiach, he writes :

1) The Jewish people where told by Hashem that they will be thrown out from their land if.... ( Is Hashen A Zion Hater??)and The Jewish people were also told by the Neviem that a person who will be called Mushiach will lead us out of this exile
every one in Talmud and the Rambam agrees that that main (and according to the Tana Shmiel the sole) objective of Mushiach will be to give the Jews independence from non Jewish governments ,
only NON-WAITERS are depending an collabrating with the Hertzelites and the likes, to redeem them from non Jewish sovereignty.
Jews are WAITERS.
2) Then to those who don't care about Mushiach altogether RJT points out there is also an additional prohibition in the form of an Oath not to establish a government by force or against the will of non Jewish nations till the time will come and this oath has punishable consequences.
3) The Third component RJT stressed again again that anyone who accepts money from the Hertzelites will automatically not agree to the all of the above

chossidlite said...

Welcome back Shneur.You were sorely missed! Here's hoping that your return is a permanent one.

Anonymous said...

the 3 components
Ehere is this important part of Torah written,in Mishne Berura? Chaye Adam? Orech Hashulchan? Shulcha Orech Harav? or in the Derech Chaim sidur? or by Reb Yosefs Karo Shulcha Orech? or in the Yad Hachazoka or in Rav Alfasi?
Is it not strange that such a important issue that can wipe out Klal Yisroel from the face of the Earth, Rachmone Yatzilinie, should off not been hidden only in a midrash in Shir Hashirim?
Don't you think that if someone makes all of Klal Yisroel Medakdikim Bekala Kebachamiroo in to Kofrim is Tzorich Bedika Achroiv?

Anonymous said...

"anyone who accepts money from the Hertzelites will automatically not agree to the all of the above"
how about a person that owes his life to a Hertzelite, will he agree to the RJT theology?
ask Fulop, the posek hador on this matters

Anonymous said...

the Zionist in general were against the funding of the kastner train, the funding came from various streams , but not from the Zionists
a collaboration with a good apparatchnik with Zionistic believes does not give for this train any credit for the Zionists

The 3 Components said...

anon writes:"here is this important part of Torah written,in Mishne Berura? Chaye Adam? Orech Hashulchan? Shulcha Orech Harav?"
This is not a private mivtza for an individual ,this is Hashems plan for the universe and his people for this Bavli and the Rambam (and RJT) will suffice

snagville said...

No Brisker here ("Going to Brisk" is part of this new Gaclicana-Hingerishe Yeshivishness).

The 3 Components said...

Anon Writes: "Is it not strange that such a important issue that can wipe out Klal Yisroel from the face of the Earth,"
So the HertzelShtat is the insurance that prevents such a catastrophe,
nonsense every child knows today that governments can not guarantee the safety of its citizens.
RJT says the opposite that existence of such a prohibitive state can cause a catastrophe, even concocting such a plan was the cause of the loss of 6 million Jews.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"the Zionist in general were against the funding of the kastner train"
who were they? ben gurion? zhabotinsky?

Anonymous said...

The 3
"This is not a private mivtza for an individual ,this is Hashems plan for the universe "
this is beyond torah and halacha? that torah can't even write about it? how idiotic?

Anonymous said...

snagville
"Going to Brisk is part of this new Gaclicana-Hingerishe "
is Reb Malkiel a ungarisher? or Reb Elye Ber?

Anonymous said...

Schneur - The diffrence between RJT and all the other anti-Zionist leaders was halachic. No one until the Satmarer rebbe came along inveighed halachah. Hence arguing about the issue with a Satmarer Chassid is anti-Torah.

Anonymous said...

the 3 components
"even concocting such a plan was the cause of the loss of 6 million Jews."
this is a big maybe?because reb Elchonon claims it is happening because of the Reform Jews of Germany that were anti Zionist. the German Jews liked Germany as the Satmars like KJ in Updsate New York and a little bit of Miami.
but that is for sure that because of the 6 million we do have our own state in the Mideast, approved by the UN.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"With respect, the chozer is hardly a household name and carries even less weight that the original Vayoel Moshe"
is a chabad household not a household?

Anonymous said...

the best part is thats its unopologetic.

the yeshivishe are devouring it

yehupitz said...

I bought a book a few years ago by this Yirmiyahu Cohen. It looked like an innocent and helpful book, with stories about gedolim of yesteryear that relate to many hundreds of gemaras. It looked like a helpful book for someone who's looking for a good relevant maaseh to say over during a shiur.

Some of the stories are indeed geshmak, but for the most part the book's stories, especially of the gedolim of the last 100 years, are of the HATE variety. It was embarrassing and painful to read. It looks like the man lives and breathes hatred of so much...

Despite the gemara in Kesubos etc. it seems to me from my conversations and correspondences with believers in that Shita that they are not motivated by love of the gemara in Kesubos but by an innate or learned hatred.

dovy in jersey said...

litvish anti-zionsim is new? which litvishe gadol in america was not anti-zionist? have you ever heard of rav revain grozovsky (author of baayos hazman). btw, approving of putting mks to fight them from within is not approving zionism.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Dovy'le

you have lots to learn...

Shua said...

Interesting to see a negative fellow talk about "the HATE variety".
Pot calling kettle black?

snagville said...

I didn't mean individuals going to Brisk, I meant the "Hamon Am". Now, from perusing all the comments I think I am sensing a little bit of jealousy from the Chabaskers that the "Olam" is devouring this book and would never look twice at a book about their Rebbe unless it was one of the controversial ones not written by a Chossid. Tzig, admit it there is some of that going on here. Even if you could spout many reasons why that is, there is still a tinge of jealousy. As there should be, you feel you have something great which you want to share with the world and unfortunately for you, the "olam" doesn't want it.

yehupitz said...

"negative fellow"! heh
Kettle calling pot calling kettle etc.

I'm one of the most non-negative commenters on this blog as far as relating to other commenters.

Anonymous said...

Snag
you are acting like a Chabadsker, you see everywhere the Chabad angle.

Anonymous said...

Dovy
"have you ever heard of rav revain grozovsky (author of baayos hazman)"
was Reb Reuven against the Medina even if the Chazon Ish would be the Rosh Hamemshole or the Akiras Hamitzvas that the early parties in Isreal as Mapai,Communist, etc...were aggressively trying to achieve.. it is a far stretch from that view to the RJT theology.

bobov chusid said...

this is not a halacha sefer, so y bother go into the halachic parts regarding zion in this book.

this book does not mention the highly letters written by the gedolim to r` abish son in law of spinka, that r` yoel wanten to push him to the nelogen.

regarding belz - belz is a small town of poor yidden near the big city of lemberg (lvov), the biiter water, the outhouse, abouve all the had a shul, a big shul, a nice shul, that the people of those kleishtetil premitive residents spoke about was the shul, this was their thing they had nothing else to do. yet, this book makes no mention of the satmer rebbi`s visit in that shul.

Rav Lihosheah said...

Litvishe gedolim in America.
Friends prior to World war 2 there were hundreds of gedolei horabbonim in America all baki in arbe chelkei shulchan aruch living in all sorts of cities in the US organized in the Agudas Horabbonim with several exceptions they were all Mizrachi. (Exceptions rav Silver, henkin and these 2davka blasted the Satmarer rebbe for his tactics in undermining Israel).
See the Igros of the Imre emes as to why he would not visit the US he says because he would ahve to give kavod to the Mizrachi rabbonim as they all are Mizrachi.
The rayaatz in his private diary in 1929-1930 alludes to the same thing about the American rabbinate.And finally even those in the Agudas israel were fiery anti Zionists ? Was Reb Moshe, rav Ruderman, rabbi Zaks, Rabbi Eli meir Bloch, Rabbi Teitz, Rabbi Joffen, Were these men and ohers like them fiery anto Zionists after the Holocaust and the creation of a makom miklat called the state of Israel ?

Anonymous said...

Snagville
"and would never look twice at a book about their Rebbe unless it was one of the controversial ones not written by a Chossid"
Do you have the figure how many Yemie Melech was sold?
does this (Natrunua Rebbe) book shy away from controversy? His whole persona was negative on most of Klal Yisroel.

Anonymous said...

Rav Lish
"See the Igros of the Imre emes as to why he would not visit the US he says because he would ahve to give kavod to the Mizrachi rabbonim as they all are Mizrachi."
are u sure that u saw such a letter? since he had no problem in Eretz Yisroel to visit the father of Mizrachi, Rav Kook himself,and you can see in the Tolner reshimos, that Rav Kook was much more on a higher standing in Ger then Rav Zonenfeld. The ruv in Yerushaliem for Gerer chasidim was Reb Hersh Pesach and Rav Herzog was in Ger on the dais by every event.

Shua said...

"I'm one of the most non-negative commenters on this blog as far as relating to other commenters."

Interesting.
Yet, though your name was not mentioned you thought the comment was addressed to you.

Anonymous said...

if in fact this book is selling "like hotcakes" it's bec of a yearning for a real leader amongst the hamoin am. it is the lack of true gadlus today causing people to swallow mythology books about the previous generation/ The fact is RYT was a daas yachid, a charismatic yirei shamayim who knew how to push his follower's buttons. but his shitas never made it out of willi and monroe into the popular discourse. Satmar has descended into defending the absurd, like the kosel is ossur, taking money for moisdos is kfira, while all their yungeleit live on kupat cholim and took a major hit when bibbie round 1 cut the subsidy for large families.

gershon said...

"Satmar has descended into defending the absurd,"


Interesting criticism coming from a Lubavitcher.Lubavitch has its hands full defending lots of absurdities.Nossi Hador,Shlita, Golem,Cherson Geniza, just a few examples.Mezuza on the wrong side, another example.

Anonymous said...

"daas yachid" atleast you give him the hounor that he had 'daas' that's more than what u have u state that his shita never made it out of wmsb'g and monroe 'not bad' but than u state about "all all their yungeleit live on kupat cholim" well I don't know of any kupat cholim in monroe or wmsb'g that u can live on, but than again i may be a 'daas yachid'

Jake said...

Rav Abraham Isaac Kuk was never a member of the Mizrachi. As a matter of fact he remained stranded in Europe during World War 1 becuase he was on his way to the Knessia Gedola of the Aguda. He also attempted to start his own grouping called Degel Yerushalayim.
Reb Zvi Pesach Frank also was never a member of the Mizrachi. Not being a kanoe does not make one a Mizrachi , it just testifies that you are a normal human being.
Loving Eretz israel and wanting to be mechazek the yishuv also does not make you a Zionist,
Rav Herzog was an important official of the yishuv and was instrumental in the rescue of most of the gedolim who arrived in Israel after 1940 like the most of the Litvisher Bnai tore from Vilna who came stright to Palestine, The Belzer rav and the Gerer rebbe and his family. Some Jews do believe in the concept of Hakaras hatov, I stress some.
It also seems clear that the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe held of rav Kuk. Frankly who did not hold of him ? the Chazon Ish addressed him with great titles, Yes the kanoim did not hold of him ,but the Litvisher roshim were all in awe of him.

Anonymous said...

Gershon
why r u claiming that guy is lubavich?

Anonymous said...

Gershon
"Lubavitch has its hands full defending lots of absurdities.Nossi Hador,Shlita, Golem,Cherson Geniza, just a few examples.Mezuza on the wrong side, another example."
isnt it Jewish to defend your beliefs? as the Mabil,Krias Yam suf, etc....

Anonymous said...

"kupat cholim in monroe or wmsb'g that u can live on"
u ever heard of Food stamps Medicaid ......

Anonymous said...

Bobov Chosid

What is your pain? What do you have against Belz from the Alte heim? Reb ben Zion Hyd was a great personality. But to compare him with the Belzer Rebbes, RYD and RA, well its not even a joke. So chill out.

myhumbleopinion said...

Dear Schneur, whoever you may be,

To be honest, I was surprised at first to see that in the beginning your review it actually sounds halfway fair, my surprise naturally was because of “this” blog, but the surprise was not for long, as I soon realized.

After reading your review, it becomes clear what your goal is, it’s to purposely feed false information in order to put RJT in a bad light, I should probably ignore it, nevertheless I still want to repudiate a couple of your points.

First, you purposely call Yirmiyahu Cohen “Neturei Karta”, just so his credibility is undermined, (and it’s no typo, or a lack of information, since you yourself point out that he’s actually Natrune, which is very much different from Neturei Karta, both in their goal’s and tactics) plus as you rightfully point out he’s not the author of the book, but merely the translator and writer, so what does his believe have to do with what rabbi Meisels asked him to write?

So one can realize your goal, its “not” to give a fair assessment of the book, you came to this review with a premeditated plan to make the book sound bad, and thus make RJ sound bad, and you’re willing to use all necessary tools to get to this conclusion.

The other thing is, this long held and repeated blatant lie that “RJ was rescued by the Zionists”, this has been shown to be false (and no, not only because of the dream which can be dismissed as hearsay) it’s a deliberate distortion of history, and the main tool used by people with a bios against RJ for his war against the idea of Zionism, as if, his supposed rescue by the Zionist, can or should change what he believed and held to be diametrically against the Torah, or else he’s a hypocrite,

(actually even if it was true, the way a Jew is supposed to think is just the opposite, nothing in the world can change even the most minute detail of the Torah, regardless of one’s personal feeling, but that’s beside the point).

The fact remains, RJ was “not” and I repeat “not” rescues by the Zionist, not even by this one Zionist,

if “Tzig” should want I can write an article which will put the facts straight once and for all, Tzig can then publish it on his blog, and let the people decide.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

myhumbleopinion

I'll be glad to publish your piece.

anon 3:48 said...

Anonymous said...
"daas yachid" atleast you give him the hounor that he had 'daas'...
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 4:25:00 PM

i'm talking about the people in EY who claim to follow his shita & use kupat cholim, ezra l'mishpacha,etc.
and there's no reason to get personal and throw insults. i thought (wrongly) that we're having a calm discussion about one of the major figures in post ww2 yiddishkeit. if the only way u can defend him is by insulting others, esp before Purim (Leich k'nois es kol hayehudim) is shame on you. I give him far more credence and credit than judging him by followers like u.

? said...

"First, you purposely call Yirmiyahu Cohen “Neturei Karta”, just so his credibility is undermined, (and it’s no typo, or a lack of information, since you yourself point out that he’s actually Natrune,"

The correction from NK to Natruna was made by HT, not the reviewer.

"which is very much different from Neturei Karta, both in their goal’s and tactics"

How are they so different beyond not teaming up with aravim? Cohen goes on radio and tv with anti-semites too.

"plus as you rightfully point out he’s not the author of the book, but merely the translator and writer, so what does his believe have to do with what rabbi Meisels asked him to write?"

It seems that Cohen's role here is greater than you are making it out to be. At first the book was listed as being authored by him - see http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=221

Note how that page highlights the anti-zionist aspect of the book.

"“RJ was rescued by the Zionists”, this has been shown to be false"

Who rescued him then? Chinese? Peruvians?

Anonymous said...

Hirshl, if the sake of publishing 'myhumbleopinion's piece is for the sake of balance then he's made his point in the comments. But why make us readers suffer accusations of a 'premeditated' plan based on mixing up natrune with neturei karte? As if we're all expected to know the fine details of the fringe of fringes of anti-zionist movements.

I suppose we can also expect to read proof of the 'blatant lie' that Kasztner rescued him but not that he refused to testify in Kasztner's defence, and perhaps some of the 'hearsay' fantasy of dreams.

Let him dream on but please spare us more of this trash.

Anonymous said...

the readers on this blog are the late comers unto the Zionist bandwagon when the zionist PR machine paid to be promoted as rescuers of the Jewish people and to the frum maassas they paid to be prompted as rescuers with miraculous support from heaven,
In 1945 they were still in the pioneer/rebel stage kastner was advised from zionist leader to position himself in such away that least frum people should get unto the transport , he was some what successful

klainer said...

I believe Natrunai was formed after there was an outcry against the NK chevreh who embraced and kissed Ahmedenijad ym"sh.Otherwise they have the same shiteh as the NK. One of their staunchest backers is the Kashoier Rov who meets with them in Williamsburg and offers them moral support.If you're suffering from insomnia you can catch one of their lectures on the evils of Zionism on one of the Satmerer "hot lines."

Anonymous said...

I think An important story about Reb Yoel is in this Lecture:

A boy who grew up in Satmar becomes Chief of Police in Israel. The Rebbe comes to Visit Eretz Yisroel and the Chief comes in for Yichidus with the Rebbe. The Rebbe tells him "What would be If your father saw you like this no Beard no Peyos" the Cheif answers Back if my father would have not listened to you he would be standing here with ME".

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/758586/Rabbi_Aaron_Rakeffet-Rothkoff/JH_23_-_Gedolai_Yisrael_and_Hester_Panim_

story details said...

Anonymous 10:38pm - good story. I listened to it, but there is more than what is above.

It is at 58:50 app. into the recording.

Rabbi Rakeffes:

In app. 1956 the Satmar Rebbe came back to Eretz Yisroel. The head of police in Kiryas Hayovel met with him

Satmar Rebbe: If your father would see you without beard and peiyes what would he say? Chief: If he wouldn't have listened to you he would be here with me. Rebbe: Mir hoben asach teshuvoh getohn, we did a lot of teshuvoh for that.

Anonymous said...

1) Natrona goes back way before the NK went off their rocker. Natrona follows Satmar; NK are meshuggeners.

2) There is a rebbe with a small hoif in Queens who is probably a follower of Helbrans. He calls homentashen "Herzl-tashen" and he has them made with salt so that they taste awful.

klainer said...

Show me one smidgeon of evidence of this so-called teshuva that was geton.I'll believe this story when I hear the SR say this in his own voice. There are a alot of non-Satmerers who like to talk themselves into believing that the SR became more mellow. No evidence to support this wishful thinking whatsoever.People think if they repeat something long enough it'll become true. No such thing. Wakeup MO's and others.The SR meant what he said over and over about the tzionistishe medineh.

klainer said...

Anony6:59 I won't argue about the date on the birth certificate but they only became celebrities when ZL TTL "disowned"the NK activists in Tehran. The NK needed to be replaced and that role was given to Natrona.

Anonymous said...

Not related to the topic per se, but b'kesher to the FR's arrival on US shores (to stay), 70 years ago --

Here's a Pirsum Rishon from Nissan 5700 (again, a disclaimer for the website. Only "they" featured it this time):

http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=60303

Anonymous said...

Jake
I have no problem with you theory, but if you follow that line, then nobody is from the Mizrochi.

Anonymous said...

My humble opinion
"The other thing is, this long held and repeated blatant lie that “RJ was rescued by the Zionists”, this has been shown to be false"
as someone that follows Satmar hagiography writers as Gelbman, Payer Ruv, Menashe Fulop. I realized every year at the time of 21 Kislev the story was revised. So now you would say he was saved thru the efforts of the KJ Matzilie Aish? How will the Bnie Yoel celebrate that Yom Tov since the KJ municipality are worse then the the Zionist?

Anonymous said...

My Humble opinion
only a brisker can see the difference between the 3 groups J Street,Natrunoa and Neturie Karta since they are all out to hurt the security of the Am Hayoshev Betzion.
Maybe Jeremiah Cohen knows the difference, since he learned in finer Yeshivahs then Queens and KJ, where you don't learn the Belly Logic, but for satmar boys there is no obvious difference.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Natrona goes back way before the NK went off their rocker. Natrona follows Satmar; NK are meshuggeners"
they are both Drek and Charaa

Anonymous said...

Klainer
"ZL TTL "disowned"the NK activists in Tehran. The NK needed to be replaced and that role was given to Natrona."
You are not updated,

by now it is disowned By the Zali(Hamas)and owned by Aronim (Fatah) it is all to show for the masses that we Titelbaum brothers are not only out to have you suckers pay for our real estate portfolio gains and for all the attorney fees, we still care for the Rebbe Zichrona Livrocho inyanim, thru some organization Natruna. These 2 brothers don't give a damn about the damage they are doing for Klal Yisroel.

Rav Elmer said...

Actually the Satmarer rebeb was not recused by Zionists and the State of Israel was created by the Aguda and the Charedim .
Where is Mr. Asimov when we need some good scinece fiction ?

klainer said...

AN.10:40 You're right. All three are out to do some serious damage.Don't underestimate a goyishe senator's confusion when Yerushalmi clad chevreh-some of whom can speak English well-start talking about Zionist aggression and the illegality of Israel. Dangerous stuff.

Anonymous said...

when r kuk visited the chozan ish he barely answered him , refused to speak torah with him. He later let it be known he(c.i.) did not come to jerusalem until ray kuk died so as not to insult him...not as said above.( haeidah nov 2010)

Anonymous said...

where did r rakfet get this story..he wasnt there...bring a makor.

Rabbi Rakeffes story said...

Re 11:47 comment - You can ask him. Fax him. He said he doesn't use e-mail.

Hey, I just got an idea. Maybe ask him to write his own 'The Rebbe'. Could be both Satmar and Lubavitch versions. ;-)

klainer said...

Anony 10:55 Thanks for the update.

Anonymous said...

Asimov-AYEKOH?

koitz vedarder said...

in all chasidisen the klipeh is soivev the peiri in lubavitch you have guys saying out the shem hamfoiresh like that shliach in spain or australia even if bimkoiroi one of them was an hungarian with similar genes to those guys protesting outside the israeli consolate ellu mai once you set the thing in motion its difficult to back pedal lemaase this cohen from manchester has nothing with satmar the next guy mit der lange peios sounds like a berkley grad farshtelt the only eitzeh today is to disown these guys ve'im lav redt yeder meshigene in numen fin ganz klal yisruel

Anonymous said...

Anon
"haeidah nov 2010)"
what a great source, I heard that they were hired to work now for the Kadaffi regime, by some London PR firm.

Anonymous said...

Koitz Vedarder.
the only difference between the crackpot of Spain and the Natrunoa group is,
the Spaniards Meshugazen don't put nobody in danger and he is a certified Meshugener. But with Natrunoa group we are putting in danger the greatest and holiest Tzibur of Klal Yisroel.
Hashem will eventually take care of the Shem Hameforesh guy,he can send him a Refua Shelimah. But these kind of Meharsim are a loose canon,Ve'Soifo Mi Yeshurani. we need a Rav Viessmandel to stop that train wreck

Anonymous said...

Another unrelated post per se, but I was wondering how come no comment on this event? Also, why were there no Lubavitchers representing (such as Rappaport who came to such a thing in the past), and noch to have such "son'im" as Katz there?! No one from Lubavitch INc had any handle there? אתמהה?!


WRITTEN BEFORE The Panel on the Rebbe at the Center for Jewish History in Manhattan (March 8th):

http://www.shmais.com/pages.cfm?page=archivenewsdetail&ID=69874

myhumbleopinion said...

First, thank you Tzig for accepting my offer, it will hopefully be forthcoming in the near future.

Now to the comments:

? 8:07:00 PM

“The correction from NK to Natruna was made by HT, not the reviewer”

Sorry, didn’t realize that, point taken.

How are they so different beyond not teaming up with aravim? Cohen goes on radio and tv with anti-semites too.

Well, except if you want to turn this into a Neturei Karta v. Natruna dialog, I don’t think this is the right venue to debate this, it’s a completely different issue, maybe some other time we can go into more detail about this.

It seems that Cohen's role here is greater than you are making it out to be. At first the book was listed as being authored by him - see http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=221

Nowhere on the site does it say that Cohen authored the book, all it says is that he wrote it, and the article points out that it was written “under the direction of Rabbi Dovid Meisels” which is a nice way to say that Cohen is not the author.

Note how that page highlights the anti-zionist aspect of the book.

Yes it indeed does, did you notice that the site’s goal is to promote the existence of frum Jewish anti-Zionism? Of course they’re going to point this part out.

Who rescued him then? Chinese? Peruvians?

Which part of “I can write an article which will put the facts straight once and for all” don’t you understand?

Anonymous 8:27:00 PM

As if we're all expected to know the fine details of the fringe of fringes of anti-zionist movements.

Well if you don’t, I guess you should go and get educated on the issue before taking a stand, (this goes for both you and Schneur).

I suppose we can also expect to read proof of the 'blatant lie' that Kasztner rescued him but not that he refused to testify in Kasztner's defence, and perhaps some of the 'hearsay' fantasy of dreams.

Why in the world are you “jumping the gun” on this, can’t you wait and see if it turns out the way you thought? Oh right, you rather Hershel doesn’t publish it, like they say:
“don’t confuse me with the facts I’ve made up my mind”!

Let him dream on but please spare us more of this trash.

Well as the saying goes “One man's trash is another man's treasure”.

klainer 10:14:00 PM

I believe Natrunai was formed after there was an outcry against the NK chevreh who embraced and kissed Ahmedenijad ym"sh.

That’s simply not the case, Natrune was founded years and years ago, in fact they even had a predecessor organization when RJ was still alive (but again Natrune v. Neturei Karta is not the topic in this particular post).

Otherwise they have the same shiteh as the NK.

All I can do is repeat what I wrote before, “Natrune is very much different from Neturei Karta, both in their goals and tactics”

One of their staunchest backers is the Kashoier Rov who meets with them in Williamsburg and offers them moral support.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in chine?

If you're suffering from insomnia you can catch one of their lectures on the evils of Zionism on one of the Satmerer "hot lines."

If you really feel like venting, you should probably see a professional shrink.

Anonymous 10:38:00 PM
story details 12:41:00 AM

I think An important story about Reb Yoel is in this Lecture:

I hope you guys won’t be disappointed, that a story told by a RJBS student, and an avid Zionist, carries the same amount of weight by a follower of RJ, like the fisher dream does by folks like you.

And talking about Aaron Rakeffet, don’t forget is quote:

You cannot be a good Zionist unless you know Vayoel Moshe by heart, once you know Vayoel Moshe by heart, with Al HaGeula Ve’Al Hatemura … then you can be a Zionist. Until then you’re a faker. End quote,

You’ve got your work cut out, get going!!

mentzelech fun outer space said...

Rav Elmer: Weren't there some extraterrestrials involved both in the Rescue and the Establishment? I remember seeing a piece by the same title written by a Satmarer chosid named L. Ron Rhubarb [yiddish name: Kartoflstein] in the Yid in the late 80's.Ich mach a toes tzi nit?

koitz vedarder said...

i think you're over estimating the power of natruna as long as the media does'nt see shtramelech combined with kaffiyas they dont care. most of these western governments see thru the satmare machues i'll give you an example byb the chafires in toledo spain when the ahroinim were working with the spanish ambassador to get the atzumes back in place the zaloinim davka wanted to protest. in satmar to be moicheh is like a lag be'omer trip

Anonymous said...

To: Anon
I’ll try helping you assorting your misguided ‘comment’ to which I was referring to you write:
1- that RYT book was a mythology book, FALSE
2- that contents of his book pertains to a previous generation, FALSE
3- that RYT shita was a daas yachid, FALSE
4- that his shita never made it out of willi and Monroe, FALSE
5- and that it never made it into popular discourse!, FALSE
6- satmar defends the absurd! (defend to whom?), FALSE
7- that all their yungeleit live on ” kupat cholim, and took a hit when bibi cut subsidies for large families” I assume you referring to yungeleit living in Israel (but than you corrected yourself that you referring to Americans living on food stamps! Well there is 40 MILLION Americans on food stamps are they all SATMARS! Wow! FALSE
8- After “Insulting” RYT and all his followers, I’m sure you have nothing personal against them just that they are ‘his’ followers gives you a right to insult ‘them’, but than you get all ‘teary’ when you assume someone is insulting ‘you personal’ Hey if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen!

Anonymous said...

koitz vedarder said
I hope you are correct

Anonymous said...

yeah, you'd think if a couple of more thousand votes would really have made a difference in the swimming pool issue? your Naive.
rav lapin is certainly entitled to his opinion. and כבודו במקומו מונח but, just ask every political expert if the satmar-toldos-aron-naturei-karti votes is a make or break, again, Naive thinking.
what?!?!?!?! well, if in your opinion RJT's "shitah" is Naive, I'm sure you wouldn't mind me saying this on rav lapin, whom, well, looking at the 2 personalities, and judging by follower-ship, there is NO contest at all.

Anonymous said...

Anon
" just ask every political expert if the satmar-toldos-aron-naturei-karti votes is a make or break, again"
You are very wrong, even if you are no a astute political junkie, you would have to know that alot of times a very small number of people can make you loose 2 chairs in the Kenesset. These 2 added on parlimenterians could have alot of power,and change laws.
"looking at the 2 personalities, and judging by follower-ship, there is NO contest at all."
Rav Lapian was not in the Rebbe business and counting his followership is like counting the followers of Reb Yonasan Eibshutz or the Marsham etc... You have a very goyishe look on gedolim.


"

Anonymous said...

Speaking of NK and Satmar, I think R' Lippa Friedman is the grandfather or great-uncle of former NK clown Moishe Arye Friedman.

Anonymous said...

I think he is a different family, he is a nephew of Moshe Friedman the former Satmar Rebbe Gabai