Without getting into the arichus of Reb Moishe and just sticking to his tze'etza'im, I've met several from several krayzen including Mizrachi type. 2. His (great?)grandson Reb Chaim Tzvi Schneurson was a "shadar" who traveled the world, (South Africa, America (even in the white house! (before Shemtov et al))) in the mid 19th century. There's a sefer about him. Also they were involved in printing Gemara (I have Gemaros with thier name inside).
Rabbi Chaim Zvi Schneerson was not a real "rav" he visited churches(at least 1) while in the US and I doubt he had the support of the Chachmei Eretz Israel.Not saying he was a bad guy. A sefer usually means a religious text, a book by a modern scholar was written about Rabbi Cahim Zvi. Since when is a Zeide responsible if his children go off the derech?I also faile to see why you are raising this issue again.Lets stop with this tragic "kapital" in the history of Chassiduth. Why not write about the gadlus of the Hornesteipler Rebbe, about rav Noe in Jerusalem, and other gedolim from the Beth horav of the Baal hatanya ?
FOS: I really don't understand the "Aren't there better things to talk about / do / complain about /etc" crowd (although, admittedly, I've used the line in the past myself) -- It's completely nonsensical, cuz you can say that about anything, anytime.
The very thing that makes these shmuessen interesting is that they aren't all that terribly important, and anyone can say anything they want about them. History and study of anything will always be about matters such as this.
The fact is that we're a society of people curious about the famous and those close to those who are famous. This is no exception - and everyone get to enjoy the right to draw whatever conclusions they want.
In David's Asaf book Nachaz basvach, there is a letter from the Mittlre Rebbe to the Bishop not to badpise his brother as he is suffring from depression.
A comprehensive account of the different versions of Reb Moishe's history can be found in Chapter 2 of David Assaf's "Untold Tales of the Hasidim", the english version of which was published by Brandeis University Press last year.
Chybryd chosid don't dwell too much on Reb Aron Markus, most of his facts are very weak, he was genius in his thinking, but most of his facts were refuted. The Sanzer chasidim love to hate him.
In המלך במסיבו there's a conversation where ר' משה comes up. רש"ג says מ'דערציילט אז בסוף ימיו האט ער געטאן תשובה. The Rebbe answers (sharply) ער האט נישט גיהאט אף וואס צו תשובה טאן.
I heard that Assaf stole the Miteler Rebbes letter from Stempfer the author of Yeshivas Lita, who found the letter in the church files.But what stuns me, that after he saw this letter, he should of pull back from his sensational article. It is very immoral and vulgar to take advantage of the plight of a nonstable person. I can not imagine how he would feel, if I would write a article of his family member that is institutionalized. Even the Enquirer will not do that,
after he saw this letter, he should of pull back from his sensational article.
According to Asaf, though, it was the Church's rule not to convert the mentally disturbed. So whatever his state, it was clearly in Moshe's interest that the Alter Rebbe write that letter. The letter doesn't undo the rest of Asaf's research, which is confusing at best.
But if anything, this letter is a limud zchus on Reb Moshe bSZmL, because it shows that the conversion should never have happened, and further that Reb Moshe didn't likely do it out of conviction, unlike the maskilish version of the story (he did it to spite the Mittler Rebbe's taking power).
It seems indisputable that he did convert, as the original conversion documents have been found. He certainly was mentally disturbed. And, since he seems to have died shortly after the conversion, he didn't do teshuvah, r"l. The sanitization of R Moshe ben RSZmL has been given new impetus by the publication of Asaf's book. But Asaf's story itself (or collection of stories) themselves make the conversion out to be far less dramatic than it could have been - it was not (likely) a true wholehearted conversion, but something done by an unbalanced individual.
but this was a dovor yodu'a anyways, as per the loshon "yotzo mida'atoy u'midatoy" vd"l.
In Dubnow's archives in YIVO, in the material he used for his "Toldos haChasidim," there is a leter from Zalman Schneerson (Lodzher Rov?) to Dubnov where he avoids discussing Moshe, despite Dubnow's attempt to get him to write about it. At the end of one of the letters, there is written an episode of how the Mitteler Rebbe sent a meshulach to a monastery do give over a letter to someone there, & how the chosid met Moshe there etc. etc.
Shimi Deitsch in his journal back in the 1990s ("Hasidic Historical Review"?) published this as coming from Rabbi Schneerson himself. proving that his shmad is confirmed from within beis ho'Rav. But I already proved to him that this was in fact written by Dubnov himself on the margin of the Schneerson's letter (it is in a very different handwriting than the letter itself), as was Dubnov's methodology to add additional info that he heard or received from other sources on the margins of letters & documents he was using. So it seems that this story was actually coming from an outside (haskalah?) source.
Still, it seems that based on other evidence that yesh dvorim b'goi to his shmad.
Bichlal, I don't see what is the fuss. Since he went mad, would his shmad not be chal al pi halochoh. & then later when he became sane again, it was as if limafre'ya nothing happened.
Anon is Hirshcler not reliable on anything? or only on sipurim that pertains crowds that he can have speaking engagements. Like sipurim on Reb Mendele Rimonever? is he waiting for a invitation from Rimanov?
A reliable Chabad historian just told me, that there are in fact many descendants of R' Moshe in EY, and an easy search would be in "Sefer HaTze'etzaim" of Alter Rebbe (where the Beirach Moshe, and subsequently his sons, are to be found as well..).
He also said "ditto" to what was written about R' Marcos' [diyuk and] the lack thereof in Chasidic history, and added: that's bloshon ham'ata..
To note: The Heilprin family is working on an updated Tze'etzaim book in recent years, to continue their father's (R' Shmuel Elazar z"l) legacy..
Just to add one more.. The said Historian, told me he can't say indefinitely that R' Chaskind's story (in the link form chabadpedia brought earlier, which connotes that RM was niftar at 99) - is false. But he did point out that it depends how reliable and "unbroken-chain" his "mesoras hasipur" was, and if from reliable baalei shmua or not..
Well based on the Cheikin (of Radimishil) letters that the Rayatz brings, it would make sense that he lived into his 90s, since Cheikin was during the times of the Maharash. (I think Cheikin says that he saw him in the 1870s. I don't have Igros Kodesh in front of me, but anyone can look it up.)
26 comments:
Without getting into the arichus of Reb Moishe and just sticking to his tze'etza'im, I've met several from several krayzen including Mizrachi type. 2. His (great?)grandson Reb Chaim Tzvi Schneurson was a "shadar" who traveled the world, (South Africa, America (even in the white house! (before Shemtov et al))) in the mid 19th century. There's a sefer about him. Also they were involved in printing Gemara (I have Gemaros with thier name inside).
YT Sheini
Anon, see:
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2005/05/rabbi-from-jerusalem.html
Rabbi Chaim Zvi Schneerson was not a real "rav" he visited churches(at least 1) while in the US and I doubt he had the support of the Chachmei Eretz Israel.Not saying he was a bad guy. A sefer usually means a religious text, a book by a modern scholar was written about Rabbi Cahim Zvi.
Since when is a Zeide responsible if his children go off the derech?I also faile to see why you are raising this issue again.Lets stop with this tragic "kapital" in the history of Chassiduth.
Why not write about the gadlus of the Hornesteipler Rebbe, about rav Noe in Jerusalem, and other gedolim from the Beth horav of the Baal hatanya ?
FOS:
I really don't understand the "Aren't there better things to talk about / do / complain about /etc" crowd (although, admittedly, I've used the line in the past myself) -- It's completely nonsensical, cuz you can say that about anything, anytime.
The very thing that makes these shmuessen interesting is that they aren't all that terribly important, and anyone can say anything they want about them. History and study of anything will always be about matters such as this.
The fact is that we're a society of people curious about the famous and those close to those who are famous. This is no exception - and everyone get to enjoy the right to draw whatever conclusions they want.
In David's Asaf book Nachaz basvach, there is a letter from the Mittlre Rebbe to the Bishop not to badpise his brother as he is suffring from depression.
A comprehensive account of the different versions of Reb Moishe's history can be found in Chapter 2 of David Assaf's "Untold Tales of the Hasidim", the english version of which was published by Brandeis University Press last year.
lo bepoel elo bemachshovo?emitzer ken dos mir fartaitchen?
Chybryd chosid
don't dwell too much on Reb Aron Markus, most of his facts are very weak, he was genius in his thinking, but most of his facts were refuted. The Sanzer chasidim love to hate him.
In המלך במסיבו there's a conversation where ר' משה comes up. רש"ג says
מ'דערציילט אז בסוף ימיו האט ער געטאן תשובה. The Rebbe answers (sharply)
ער האט נישט גיהאט אף וואס צו תשובה טאן.
Nice to see NY Twersky flew to EY for his niece's wedding this week...
He must have looked at the crowd in Rachmastrivka BM and through these guys don't even know what they are missing out on....
Not that anyone looked like they were talking to him from the pictures at the Chusen Muhl...
vos zogstu???
His wife and kids (moshe ben baal hatanya) went to eretz yisroel so i'm sure he has many descendants.What's the chidesh?
I don't usually like quoting this site, but this was done well. See here (and all footnotes, especially by #8) --
http://chabad.info/chabadpedia/index.php?title=%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%94_%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99
I heard that Assaf stole the Miteler Rebbes letter from Stempfer the author of Yeshivas Lita, who found the letter in the church files.But what stuns me, that after he saw this letter, he should of pull back from his sensational article. It is very immoral and vulgar to take advantage of the plight of a nonstable person. I can not imagine how he would feel, if I would write a article of his family member that is institutionalized. Even the Enquirer will not do that,
Anon 4:46 writes:
after he saw this letter, he should of pull back from his sensational article.
According to Asaf, though, it was the Church's rule not to convert the mentally disturbed. So whatever his state, it was clearly in Moshe's interest that the Alter Rebbe write that letter. The letter doesn't undo the rest of Asaf's research, which is confusing at best.
But if anything, this letter is a limud zchus on Reb Moshe bSZmL, because it shows that the conversion should never have happened, and further that Reb Moshe didn't likely do it out of conviction, unlike the maskilish version of the story (he did it to spite the Mittler Rebbe's taking power).
It seems indisputable that he did convert, as the original conversion documents have been found. He certainly was mentally disturbed. And, since he seems to have died shortly after the conversion, he didn't do teshuvah, r"l. The sanitization of R Moshe ben RSZmL has been given new impetus by the publication of Asaf's book. But Asaf's story itself (or collection of stories) themselves make the conversion out to be far less dramatic than it could have been - it was not (likely) a true wholehearted conversion, but something done by an unbalanced individual.
(EDITED BY BLOG OWNER)
http://chabad.info/chabadpedia/index.php?title=%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%94_%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99
according to this, he lived 99 years.
it sounds like a stretch esp someone who lived a life of poverty and wandering.
My G-G-G-grandfather AH was 98 when he died in 1873. Mind you, that was a big deal and whoever carved his tombstone goes on and on about it.
Sorry, I know Shimmy Hischler. He wants to be invited to speak in Chabad one day. There does not have to be any connection to fact in his story.
anon 4:46
but this was a dovor yodu'a anyways, as per the loshon "yotzo mida'atoy u'midatoy" vd"l.
In Dubnow's archives in YIVO, in the material he used for his "Toldos haChasidim," there is a leter from Zalman Schneerson (Lodzher Rov?) to Dubnov where he avoids discussing Moshe, despite Dubnow's attempt to get him to write about it. At the end of one of the letters, there is written an episode of how the Mitteler Rebbe sent a meshulach to a monastery do give over a letter to someone there, & how the chosid met Moshe there etc. etc.
Shimi Deitsch in his journal back in the 1990s ("Hasidic Historical Review"?) published this as coming from Rabbi Schneerson himself. proving that his shmad is confirmed from within beis ho'Rav. But I already proved to him that this was in fact written by Dubnov himself on the margin of the Schneerson's letter (it is in a very different handwriting than the letter itself), as was Dubnov's methodology to add additional info that he heard or received from other sources on the margins of letters & documents he was using. So it seems that this story was actually coming from an outside (haskalah?) source.
Still, it seems that based on other evidence that yesh dvorim b'goi to his shmad.
Bichlal, I don't see what is the fuss. Since he went mad, would his shmad not be chal al pi halochoh. & then later when he became sane again, it was as if limafre'ya nothing happened.
-- ZIY
Ziy
Dubnov does not change much, when he adds the anecdotes, he was in the monastery but still insane.
Anon
is Hirshcler not reliable on anything? or only on sipurim that pertains crowds that he can have speaking engagements. Like sipurim on Reb Mendele Rimonever? is he waiting for a invitation from Rimanov?
I thought the problem was that his son became a "Mizruchniker"?
To add to Berel 2:15 & Anon 7:04 --
A reliable Chabad historian just told me, that there are in fact many descendants of R' Moshe in EY, and an easy search would be in "Sefer HaTze'etzaim" of Alter Rebbe (where the Beirach Moshe, and subsequently his sons, are to be found as well..).
He also said "ditto" to what was written about R' Marcos' [diyuk and] the lack thereof in Chasidic history, and added: that's bloshon ham'ata..
To note: The Heilprin family is working on an updated Tze'etzaim book in recent years, to continue their father's (R' Shmuel Elazar z"l) legacy..
Just to add one more..
The said Historian, told me he can't say indefinitely that R' Chaskind's story (in the link form chabadpedia brought earlier, which connotes that RM was niftar at 99) - is false. But he did point out that it depends how reliable and "unbroken-chain" his "mesoras hasipur" was, and if from reliable baalei shmua or not..
Well based on the Cheikin (of Radimishil) letters that the Rayatz brings, it would make sense that he lived into his 90s, since Cheikin was during the times of the Maharash. (I think Cheikin says that he saw him in the 1870s. I don't have Igros Kodesh in front of me, but anyone can look it up.)
-- ZIY
history is history everybody wants to read and know.
moshe son of baal hatania
dov ber son of rushin
son of eisik of kaliv
and the list goes on and on...
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