Old Shul in Skvira, Ukraine. From Wiki
I had a very busy weekend and didn't do much internet browsing. A friend sent me a message at 7pm asking if I saw the news about Skver. I hadn't seen it yet, and went to VIN on my old 2G Blackberry. What can I say? That I was shocked? Surprised, maybe. But that's it. We've been totally desensitized to be shocked anymore. געוואלד! איך נפלו הגבורים Trying to trap a family of 5 in a burning wood house is probably a new low, despite how try people try to downplay this by saying "כבר הי' לעולמים" that Chassidic disputes lead to death back in the Old Country. I'd rather not make this about me, and about what I was accused of only two weeks ago/last week, namely that that I had perpetrated the greatest chilul hashem of all time, so I won't.
72 comments:
i love your take on this re the chillul hashem part. lets wait and see if all the people attacking you come here and attack skver now. lets wait and see.
another thing, obviously the skverer rebbe had no knowledge of this plan, it would be absurd to think so. However, he DID know about the general atomsphere in skver and how outsiders were dealt with, Therefore, this is all on his shoulders, the burns on this mans body was caused by the skverer rebbe himself.
Could be very possible that this Shul was from the sadigurer chasidim, since they had more people in that town,and probably deeper pockets then the Rebbes of the Twersky family that owned that namesake. Also heard that reb Duvedel Skverer never looked on that side, but could be his enemies said that.
Azi
If he did not know then why are you blaming the Rebbe?
By having a policy that all dissent should be clamped down with a strong fist, as he did for 45 years, does that make him in to a accomplice?
he is not a big scholar, but he ain't stupid to do moves that will hurt his image forever?
@Anon, yes he is an accomplice by not stoping the two years of protests that took place outside this victim's house, he is an accomplice for fostering the atmosphere that led to this almost horrific tragedy.
he get;s the blame because he may not have hired a hit man, but the hit man was working for him.
I don't blame the Rebbe. I blame the government for allowing these "shtetelach" to exist. In Europe, Shtetelach did not exclusively house Jews. In America it is even worse to have a community of exclusively one group: Blacks, Jews or White supremacists. This new innovation on the part of skver and satmar is somewhat akin to retreating to the woods like the unabomber, and leads to predictably similar results. Lets bus some Asian and Latino kids into New Square and show the Hasids about Lady Gaga, Banh mi and Amare Stoudamire. The pursuit of suburban mediocrity called modern orthodoxy does not look so bad this morning.
Anon
"Lets bus some Asian and Latino kids into New Square and show the Hasids about Lady Gaga, Banh mi and Amare Stoudamire."
since we are in a democracy and the government does not share no costs of running these institutions, they can not interfere, The same way that they can not force GAGA(sorry to admit that I have no idea who that pice of trash is) to put on Skverer Rebbes havdola krechtzin on the screen of her concerts
SKVER IS A PERPTUAL CATCH 22.
Let's take this spitzer kid for example. He's plain tumim who is standing up defending the honor of his God-(Rebbe). I'm sure he knipped his gartel extra tight before he set out to be a modern day Pinchas ben elazar teaching a well deserved lesson to zimri rottenberg.
So there isn't much evil there. Pure Chassidus.
Then u have Rottenberg. Nebech, he's stuck. He can't handle the mandated prayer coercion as well as other one-option-only rules.
The cruelest part of this saga is when ppl condemn 'Hey, he doesn't like it in Skver, let him Leave!'
Like leave to where? With what? Which Mosad will take in his kids when Skver effectively undercuts any mosad that attempts to accommodate their dissidents.
Home values are way lower in Skver so he'll be left without a home.
His entire family will view him as a some second class citizen, while the 'ex-skvere' stigma will trail him wherever he goes. ('Him' referring to all the kalteh chasidim)
Plus there is a deeply ingrained fear of a rebbishe kepeidah that is nearly impossible to eradicate.
From the many different accounts that come forth from the Rebbes Hoif, it seems that Skvere rebbe truly believes that every thought that runs thru Duvid Twersky's mind is a divine message. So skvere rebbe just follows thru on his riach hakodesh like a loyal servant to God.
Everyone in Skver is just doing what they have been conditioned to do. And. Its all for the sake of Hashem.
“I had perpetrated the greatest chilul hashem of all time”
Isn’t it a greater chilul when an apikoras and mechalal shabos b’fresya (who is PM of a state with over 6 million jews who 90%+ of them are like him..) talks to a joint session of congress pretending to talk in the name of k’lal ysirael and who declares his grand standing of ‘never again’ when in the same breadth defying the president of the USA who protects (physically) the free world that ‘never again’ not only in slogan but in reality it shouldn’t happen again c”v? hirshel didn’t you notice that cilul hashem I wonder ?
These skveres are at it again...remeber what they did in Crown Hts to barrys mother ,the hospital pictures are so similar !
At least we know a chabadnik would never make a chilul hashem like a skverer
I am sure the baal shem tov is shepping nachas
YOU MADE A CHILUL HASHEM, EVEN THOUGH THIS IS WORSE.
LW
"Like leave to where? With what? Which Mosad will take in his kids when Skver effectively undercuts any mosad that attempts to accommodate their dissidents."
Your fact hold no water, their are 100's of ex skverers residing in Monsey, the Tauber family, Ezriel, Yechiel, etc... all were ex skverers,and they are today one of the pillars of that village. Every Mosad took their kids. Obviously if you are a professional rabble rouser a Mosad will not touch you or your kids with a 10 foot pole,they are scared you will backfire with that talent one day against them.
All I said is not to condone in any way the Masse Retzach by Skverer Rebbes butler against Rottenberg
I guess I am the only one who thinks its insane that politicians support the self ghettoization and self imposed poverty of New Square and Satmar. But I guess democracy is all about burning people to death when they disagree with you and having separate streets for men and women.
"Isn’t it a greater chilul when an apikoras and mechalal shabos b’fresya"
actually no, i listened to the Cspan covarage after the speech and one gentile after another called in to praise Netanyahu, you can bet every single radio show host will praise netenyahu and all of congress will praise him.
where is the chilul hashem? what are you talking about?
all of a sudden you're concerned about the kovod of obama?
Misnagid
"At least we know a chabadnik would never make a chilul hashem like a skverer"
can we put the car bombings mishap in Ponivizh And Grodna Ashdod at the foot of Reb Chaim Valoizhiner or the GRA?
Anon
"I guess I am the only one who thinks its insane that politicians support the self ghettoization and self imposed poverty of New Square and Satmar."
your self hating chardiesim blurs your mind,
Does the government intervene in the slums of Camden NJ?Monticello NY? or the whole state of Arkansas?
people can choose where to live, in this country, their is no official social engineering.
Haha. Ask those families who left in recent years what they went thru. The Tauber families left on the last boat out before the final closure.
LW
"He's plain tumim who is standing up defending the honor of his God-(Rebbe"
Satmar offical is not based on A "God Rebbe" and they were also cut short of genocide when bombing a facility that housed 40 newborns and their mothers.Acting aggressively is not a religious only trait, it was used in the sixties by the non believers peacniks too.Just now we had the anti war pacifist Noam Chomsky wishing publicly that former president Bush should get killed.
Anyone notice the news reports that there were THREE arson attempts in the past 18 months on dissidents. Besides other forms of violence.
And what does everyone think about the '(un)apology statement ' issued by the Skver Management ?
They actually stated publicly, that they are blaming the burn victim, opening up a whole host of problems. And the backlash for such a statement will be swift and fierce.
Terrible political / public relations modus operandi.
I wonder how the Tzig will handle the culpability issues with the beating meted out to Mrs Chana Gurary?Who was to blame then?
I guess that's what took him so long to post about his sworn enemies the Skverer in case that question arises.
It is skvere Rebbes shul in Skvira.
Sadigerer/Boyaner Kloiz(which was the offsial shul of the town) was much bigger:)
Majority of the city Skvira were rizhiner chasidim, and Skverer Rebbes had verry little word in the towns affairs. That's why Tovarish (COMRADE)David is making it up on the US SHORES.
Anonymous.
The President of the USA Obama will defend the free world in 2011 like your president of the US defended the Jews of Europe in 1933-1945,yes he defended 6 million of them very well...
If Obama's kavod is that important why not be mechabed him at Kof Alef Kislev.
90% of Israeli Jewry like him ... do the math in the Knesset between the various religious parties you have at least 22 members with kippot out of 120 , maybe in the free and proud school district of KJ thats 90% but not in the rest of the world.
Velo od add on the 50,000 meshugoyim who support your shittah you have close to 25% of Israel being religious. Hey go to the any city in the US outside of NY (are 25% of Manhattan's Jews frum ?) and try to find a city where 25% are shomer shabbes. good luck.Its usually closer to to 2.5% bY the way Bibi's kids get a religious education (they have not yet started to study sefer vayoel Moshe) and one even was a finalist in the tanach contest.
You guys are chasidim , so meg menreyden azelche lashon hora af a ganze eda kedaysha fun yidden bimyuchad az men vais nit vos men redt fun un as men dreyt a kop nor zu chanfenen di goyim !
anonymous 1:20
No he didn't as i blogged about here
http://innate-differences.blogspot.com/2011/05/assigning-blame-credit-for-di-tzitung.html
It is Shmarya that will flahckir for that one.
maskim, someone out did you big time on a mavhildike oifen, for the guiness book of world records chillul hashem category. this event will go down in history, what you ddi wont.
isn't how many people finding out about it a factor in determining khilul HaShem or is a minyan = to ten million?
While this crime is far more egregious Shmaryas khilul HaShem reached every corner of the planet.
Shmarya wins/loses. No contest
Just a quick note i recall the alte reb Sender Bistrizky son of Marcus B that his family was from Skver and obviously were Boyaner (Rizhiner) chassiidm.
No one has a monopoly on violence and chilul hashem . Serious acts of violence against other Jews have been commited by among others Satmarer, Gerer, Skverer, Belzer and Lubavitcher among other sectarian Jewish groups. I wonder if there is an instance of a YU-RIETS student beating up a YCT rosh yeshiva ? And they
all are potentially Chilulei hashem.I saw Rebbetzin Gourary in person after her beating and the sight was not pretty, I also do not recall any serious apology or machoah from the Rosh Chabad . Now I know why as the act was done by the group in Rockland ...Is it not high time that all Chassiidm started to think of themselves as jews first and members of a particular group second ?
the two are inseparable, it is their connection to Judaism. L'havdil like saying "I'm a baseball fan first, a Yankee fan second" NOT, absent the Yankees he'd have no interest in baseball.
Russian Chusid
I heard that Reb Duvedel was no the only Skverer Rebbe in Skver, he had a older brother also a Rebbe in the same town that had more chasidim.
Do you have more info?
Was Skver a big town?
Anon
"Isn’t it a greater chilul when an apikoras and mechalal shabos b’fresya"
what exactly is the chilul hashem?
that he is a proud jew?
Bray ,
that is only true of Red Sox fans
Barry Gurary tried to take the Lubavitcher Rebbe to court for inflammetory rhetoric that led to a bochur beating up Chanah Gurary severely. It was going to go to court, but Lubavitch & Barry settled out of court. Which comes to show that there is some possible legal precedence that a hasidic leaders open views against someone can incriminate him, even though he himself did not pull the trigger, so to speak.
No wonder Skver did not want to get proper fire extinguishing equipment & did not want the counrty fire department involved in New Square a few years back...
Was this Lag B'Omer medures gotten out of hand? (This is remeniscent of when around a decade ago Lag B'Omer Erev Shabes right before licht benchen, during special elections in Chasidishe Williamsburg, one of the election booths were burned down (by Aharoynim?). M'hot geret in shul during kaboles shabes that this was medures getting out of hand... But in NS, it was a direct attack on human beings & fellow yidden, not on an empty booth.
-- ZIY
There were 3 Rebbes in Skvira:
R Yisroel(older brother),R Duvdl, R Moshe Don(nephew). RMD had the biggest oilem.
I fail to understand the thinking of my charedi brothers. A person tries to commit a ritual murder with the backing of a community, rebbe and beis din and the only issue in the headline is chillul H-SHem? What about murder, ziyuf haTorah, Avoda Zara etc. The chillul H-Shem is based on the fact that this was an evil thing to do. Let us focus on the evil.
I was always wondering what
חסידי'שע שחיטה
is ...
Anon
"but Lubavitch & Barry settled out of court."
what was the settlement? does schneur know about this?
Anon
ZIY
"but Lubavitch & Barry settled out of court."
you are day dreaming
`Barry did settle out of court for a hefty sum more then the value of the books that he took, , i saw the agreement
Sifton
the agreement was not for his mothers beating, it was after the case was close foe goodwill.
Minagid
"was always wondering what
חסידי'שע שחיטה"
Chasidic shechita means Tzelimer and KJ
Misnagdic shechita, means Shofar, Hebrew national and Finkel
Russian Chosid
"R Yisroel(older brother),R Duvdl, R Moshe Don(nephew). RMD had the biggest oilem."
Did they all have separate chasidim? with seperate shtiblech thru out Ukraine?
Were are their Tzionim?
after beating his mother under the threat of arrest the Bombas were transformed in goodwill
AnonyMouse 6:48
Sorry don't put Tzeilim and KJ in the same sentence. Tzeilem has no shechita and KJ has no naamonos.
Gimpel makes a very good point here.
That and the fact the conversation here somehow switched to BG and his late mother shows how twisted some people are.
Sifton
your facts are not correct
Hirshel,
it is your fault
I know know whether this has been mentioned but just so people know:
The reason Rottenberg didn't just leave skverer shtetel is because he was unable to sell his house for a fair price.
Azi
"yes he is an accomplice by not stoping the two years of protests that took place outside this victim's house"
Are you talking from a legal viewpoint, I am no attorney, they will decide if he is considered the instigator by not stopping the harassment by his admirers.
from a halachic viewpoint, he did noting wrong by trying to get people out of the Village that his father built to adhere to his standards. Creating a separate Minyan was a no no in most shtetlech in the Alter Hiem. It was fought by the Akrou"t Kehila vaad in every shape or form. It is not a chasidic invented concept, it is the opposite, chasidim fought the Kehila powers to make a separate Minyan.It was based in the issur of Loi Sisgodedou,The Chasidim worked out some heter on a Radbaz, brought down in the Bies Aron of the Karliner.Kids in the USA are too liberated to feel a yoke of a kehila. But FYI, the Kehila with all its corruption and its 7 Tuvai Hoir possessed the Jewish masses in the towns of Europe.
Were there any Tziyonim in Skver?
No, it was the only city or town from Don to Beersheva that had no Tziyonim.
A Nes Nigleh.
However, there was the requisite Tzelofchod Me'Chalel Shabbos, the prototypical one, whom the Rebbes warned , he didnt heed, and he had a Misah Meshuneh.
One each of those per Shtetel, one for every Rebbe'leh.
Just finished watching Sean Hannity on Fox Network and there was complete agreement that Bibi did an outstanding job in presenting Israel's position while at the same time respecting the Pres.of the U.S. It was a major kiddush haShem.I guess when it comes to Zionism certain elements suddenly become patriotic and concerned about the kovod of the Pres.How many hours a week do you spend studying U.S. history in your chadorim?
.
Belzfinamool
"Were there any Tziyonim in Skver?"
I meant burial plots for the Rebbeiyem?
he is in a very bad mood...his einiclich went to uman...
"Incorperated Village"...one spelling mistake is worth a thousand words...
For the record Skever is confused.. and it's totally the responsibility of their leader he should get out of the way.. let the kehila's sober minds lead! one day the rebbe chats with hillary! the next day he will condemn breslev!.. go to the kosel.. and support zionisim! (how? by chatting with that Lowy guy who also chats with the murder accomplice pope!! not the big mouth Ahmadinejad ) but not the agudah!.. leading his flack with a dictatorship not with halacha! than pretend to be like a dear or sheep when the headlights is on him.. move over rebbe your time is up! GO.
Sifton
Did you come back ? I bet you are here to admit your mistake and grant ownership of the library to the Rashbag ?
In my worst nightmares I never thought that there really was a Creedmoorer Chassidus. I thought it was a parody of behavior that does exist but that is not part and parcel of the policy of any Chassidus.
Unfortunately, the Chassidus of Dovid Schmoigerman does exist, and it is led by another Dovid, whose surname in English begins with the letter after S for Schmoigerman. He is a stain on his distinguished surname, and his only connection to Chernobyl is that he is as big a disaster to Yiddishkeit as the reactor failure was to the environment.
Anon
Reading you I see a confused soul and confused mind,
The Skverer Rebbe is not confused, he is very calculated, his strategy backfired by a loose canon that got him and his oldest son, egg on their faces.
To all the Lomdim on the Blog,
Find me where Chilul Hashem can be adapted to this story.
In Halacha the term Chilul hashem is used only when a Jew sins in front of 10 Jews.
Their are alot of pesukim that we see that we are obligated to be mekadesh shem shomaim and Oir Legoyim etc... even for the non jew, but the halachoic term of Chilul is only for a Jew in front of other Jews.
Which, getting back to the fiasco of Hillcrest, was a chilul hashem since Jewish people also are informed, and the Shem Hashem was desecrated.
In fact it would be nice and very accurate if the rebbele in question were to append Schmoigerman to his birth surname that he has so tarnished.
Schmoigerman is a surname that this rebbe has earned - it comes from the roshei teivos for shoiteh, menivel ugas ruach.
Der Shygetz
Its about time to stop being a shagetz
Judges Walker,Sifton,and Crater,et al:
Tell us what's happening in the Federal District Court-Appellate Division for the AfterLife.Just somewhat curious.
anonymous, chochem di, "der Shygetz" is a play on "der Yid". It is the daily paper of chassidis Creedmoor - our weekly is Di Vochidige Velt-Barimte Pashkvilke.
In Skvira of old they probably did not even say "Shygetz" the way the terror squads did on video - from where it is located I'd think they'd have pronounced it "Shaygetz."
How did Reb Yaakov Yosef ZYA come to re-establish his Chassidus with only Ingarischer?
Der Shagetz
Are you also "Imuphangig" as the Der Yid?
Wow ! I did not realize that for lomdim this story was a kiddush hashem and that it raises the prestige of Jews, Torah and the G-d of the Jews to a new high in the eyes of the Goyim !
Perhaps we ought to create a WWF for Jews and have our prestige raised even higher ! Why not its not a chilul hashem , so chances are its a Kiddush hashem.
I congratualte you for the chidush, yasher koach !
Ay shmayst men dorten ahn rachmonus
Kojell
did someone write it was a kidush hashem?
a simple question was posed,and if you cant answer put on back your overalls and take the pitchfork and get out of the discussion.
Shygetz
"How did Reb Yaakov Yosef ZYA come to re-establish his Chassidus with only Ingarischer?"
you got to give respect when it is due
where is 'bobov chusid'on this topic? i"m waiting to see what they did in swampy belz and how much better bobov is.
by the way this shul skever claimes to be theirs, is one big lie, it belonged to the rushiner chassidim, that was much bigger movement in city of skvere than r' duvid'el of skver himself. r' duvid came to hate that dynasty.
Wrong!As i explained earlier, the shul in the picture is not the main shul in Skvira. The main shul in Skvira was a Sadigerer/Boyaner kloiz, and it was much bigger.
The one in picture is R'Duvidl's kloiz.
Incidentally, who printed the "peace" signs?
r' duvidel had kloiz in average shabbos davened about 25 people, in those small town it was a nice minyan. the sadigera klois had about 150, now thats a huge difference. how many g-d servant jews do you think lived in skver?
R duvidel had alot more then 25, he wad the biggest rebbe in ukraine in his later years, RMD had his grandfathers hoif wich realy belonged to his older brother RYM machnivker r yisroel leaved there just for a few months or less before he was nifter and didnt have his own shul.
Post a Comment