דער רבי שליט"א ביים צינדן חנוכה ליכט
זעהט אויס אז אין וויען גייט מען זיך טיילן. די עלטערע מיטגלידער - וועלכע דער נייער רב איז קיינמאל נישט געפעלן, האבען נישט געלאזט אז דער רב זאל ממנה זיין דער זון זיינער אלץ דיין אינעם קהלה, און דאס האט געבראכן דעם קעמל'ס רוקען, אזוי צו זאגן. דער רב האלט עס מער נישט אויס, ער האט צו שלש סעודות זיך אויסגעגאסן דאס הארץ און געבעטן ברחמים מ'זאל אים העלפן אין די מערכה ארויסווארפן די אלטע און אים געבן א "קארט בלאנש" אויף צו טוהן וואס ער וויל. למעשה קען מען זאגען אז דער שידוך האט נישט עולה יפה געווען שוין פון אהנהייבס. הרב אשר אנשיל כ"ץ, כאטש ער געשטאמט פון אשכנז'ישע אידן און רבנים, האט נישט געהאט קיין שום אינטערעס אין ממשיך זיין מסורת קהל עדת יראים אזוי ווי עס האט זיך געפירט ביז דעמאלט. זעהט אויס אז די ווינער אידן האבען דאס נישט געוואוסט. היינט ווייסן זיי שוין. און היינט ווייסן זיי שוין אויך אז צוריק גייט א קאזע, און אז די זייגער קען מען נישט צוריק רוקען. מ'האט דעם נוסח התפלה שוין געטוישט אין וויליאמסבורג, (און אפשר גאר אין אלע קהלות) און ר' אנשיל כ"ץ איז שוין היינט א פולקאמער "רבי" לכל דבר. טוט רבי'שע שידוכים און פירט טיש. די "אלטע ווינער" האבען שוין אויסגעוויינט אלע טרערן אויף די חורבן פון זייער באליבטן קהלה, אבער זעהט אויס אז איין "מערכה" האבען זיי נאך אין זיך. דאס אז מ'האט געטוישט דעם נוסח התפלה און פארמאכט עטליכע פון די מוסדות אין די ערי השדה פון וומסב"ג האט מען נאך געקענט אויסהאלטן, אבער דאס אז ער וויל זיך משתלט זיין אויף די אלע נכסים פון די קהלה און אריינשטעלן די קינדער אין פירערשאפט פאזיציעס, אויף דעם זענען זיי שוין נישט מסכים. די היינטיגע מעמבערשיפ לאזט שוין נישט אז מ'זאל אינגאנצן צוריק רוקן די זייגער, אבער זעהט אויס אז עס גייט נאך אלץ נישט גוט פאר'ן רב שליט"א, ער מוז זיך נאך אלץ בעטן ברחמים אז מ'זאל אים לאזן און "העלפן" טוהן וואס אים געפעלט, ווייל רצונו איז לעשות רצוננו... ס'קען גאר זיין אז די "אלטע ווינער" וועלן מוזן זיך טיילן און עפענען אן אייגענער קהלה ע"פ מסורת אשכנז. אויס דאס געשעהנט איז קהל עדת יראים אונטער דער פירערשאפט פון הרב כ"ץ אין גרויס געפאר, פינאנציש, און וועט זיך שטארק מוטשען צו האלטן דער רב און די מוסדות אפילו אין דעם פארקלענערטע צושטאנד וואו זיי געפינען זיך יעצט.
96 comments:
To the owner of this new blog,
Yasher Koach for providing the fluent Yiddish-reading community with its newest, and I am sure fascinating blog. Hopefully you didn't have to pay too much to buy the domain name.
I wish the missing Hirshel Tzig well, and look forward to the day he decides to return to blogging. It was a good ride. If you speak to him, please give him my warmest regards.
איך בין בכלל נישט קיין ווינער, איך מוז אבער זאגן אז איך האב געהאט א קורצן שייכות מיטן רב מיטהאלטנדיג א שלום בית קעיס, און עס איז אמת ויציב אז ער גיט זיך אינגאנצן אוועק פארן ציבור בכל לבו ונפשו, פיל מער פון סיי וועלכן אנדערן רב.
טאקע א שאד אז ער האט נישט אדרעסירט די טענה אז ער האט געטוישט די מנהגי הקהילה, אבער איך גלייב אז ער האט א נארמאלן לאגישן מהלך.
איך ווייס נישט וויאזוי ער וועט עס פארענטפערן, אבער איך טראכט, יעדער ווייסט אז די אמאליגע אשכנזישע אידן זענען אנטלאפן פון וויליאמסבורג בעיקר צוליב די השפעה פון סאטמאר. למעשה איז די איינציגסטע וועג אז די קהילה זאל ווייטער בליען, אז ממאכט באקוועם פאר חסידישע יונגעלייט, די יעצטיגע איינוואוינער פון וויליאמסבורג. און דאס קען מען טאן נאר אויב מטוישט צו די מער אנגענומענע חסידישע מנהגים.
פרעגסט מיך? טאקע א שאד. אבער דער ווינער רב דארף דאך זען אז זיין קהילה זאל אנגיין.
דער רבי שליט"א
in ba enk iz es
דער שליט"א רבי
veday lameyvin
Yehupetz
Most or a large percentage of the blog readers know Yiddish and are comfortable reading it as is the blogmeister.If there are words you don't understand just ask and we"ll help you
A grammatishe shayle far Ingarishe Yidn:Ven zogt men "Etz","Enk",or "Enkere"?A daink.Di verter gefinen zich nit in Litvishn shprach.
the rav in such a nice person, he does not deserve to have to go thru this.
in belz there is no kehila, but all the dayonim take their psak halacha from the rav, the always are the editors and writers of the "ohr hatzofohn", you"ll always find one of the dayonim writing a letter to the publishers of belz magazine. they are always on the defensive to respond to the belz fabricated minhogim and stories.
in contrast to that in other chassidus as bobov the dayonim wont write such stupid letters and lower themselfs.
the vien rav, as a ruv long enough of that kehila, knows its people, he knows the yekers they can be pretty hard akshonim, and as the ruv he speaks to all of his members in private, he therfore knows his limits.
Interesting, but as you write you can not turn the clock backwards.
Begining in the period about the First world War , Ashkenazi orthodoxy in greater Hungary was taking major losses , the youth was leaving Judaism and many orthodox kehillos were composed of a majority of children of orthodox jews whose affilaition was strictly pro forma.
Thus the rabbonim and strictly Orthodox saw Chassidism as the force to keep orthodoxy going and almost all yeshivas in Hungary turned Chassidc with a few exceptions like Pressburg and Nitra. Many cities like Ujhel, Popa etc had so called Sefardi kehillos as the main line Orthodox kehilos were lets say shvach. So what is happening in Brooklyn is just a continuation of events that began long ago.
Ashkenazi Oberlander Hungarian judaism has basically gone to history.This is a real shame
After the war the Pressburger rav (even his cousin the Erlauer became a hassidic rebbe )was no longer the rosh of Hungarian jews that role was assumed by the Satmarer rebbe.Khal yereim Vienna was taken over by the chassidim and KAJ in WH was taken over by the yeshiva world.I guess Ashenazic Central European jewry did not have the will to keep going.
BUT just like the ekkes are trying to re invent themselves through the work of R. hamburger and others perhaps the Oberlander can too ?
What is the point of the veiner kehilla, if it is chassidish? This is a hijacking of a community and its assets.
I believe that a condition was made not to change to from nusach Ashkenaz .
It's a shame that a 1000+ plus year nusach has been discarded.
Chasam Sofer would not be happy
IN the US other basically Ashkenazic Hungarian kehilos have also turned chassiidc like Nitra was the Kashoirer rav a chasid before the war , he certainly was no Rebbe nor was rav Saul Brach.
Institutions like humans change over years and time so Vienn has changed so has KAJ so has YU , so has Lubavitch.
So the vienner kehilo may be changing as well.
Whats interesting is that the 2 previous rabbonim there had no natural memale makom either becuase of no children or no qualified children. So they had little interest in tkaing over the kehillo, as perhaps rav Katz may see it as nechosim for his children.
if i under stand correctly todays rabbonim and rebbes want to be also rosh hakohol ?
Galitzyaner
"What is the point of the veiner kehilla, if it is chassidish? "
you can use your argument on Erlau, Vosner,Duscinsky, Pupa etc...
they are all Ashkenazic with a Chasidic bend, decided to go full fledge Chasidic, Vien is not different,
Reb Yonasen was a Ashkenaz and a fiery Munkacher chusid learning alot of Kabala and Chasidic Seforim, and so was the Huteiser Ruv, Rav Lebovich, he learned by the Keren Ledovid of Satmar a full fledge Belzer and Shinever Chosid.
Viener Kehila has a majority of bnie Kehila that learned in Galanta, Pupa and in Serdhhile by the current Ruvs Ziede who was a big Belzer chosid, 75% torahs of RYD of Belz are from his writings.
Shloma,
I remember the Viener shul in the last years of Rav Lebovich Z"L it was literaly a ghost town, like a old deserted shul in hunts point of the Bronx
bobover Chusid
in your hate for Belz, you forgot that the Katz family are Belzer Chasidim for Generation of the old Belz with the muddy streets.
Zalmen alpert
"Hungarian judaism has basically gone to history.This is a real shame"
what do you know about it, that you are so nostalgic? Obviosly there is a reason that the youth left that lifeless branch of Judaism?
I read the manifesto.Not impressed.Could have been written in N.Square. Asking yingeleit to be "moicheh" against the people who disagree?
It seems that the basis of the argument is this:Adass Yereim was an Ashekenaz non chasidic community with some chasidic sympathies.With time the Williamsburg contingent became more and more chasidic, culminating with the ruv changing the nusach to Sefard.The old timers who are more modern don't want any part of this.After all Williamsburg Vien is basically Satmar, very far from what they are.Why should they allow their kehilla to be hijacked??
The smart move would be to let the more modern contingent to keep on running Boro Park AND mONSEY and time will tell where the kehilla heads.Why can't a kehilla have various elements in it?
Dumb move in my opinion!
"KAJ in WH was taken over by the yeshiva world"
Zalman Alpert,
What are you saying?The kehilla is steadfast in all it's unique customs.Furtheremore, Hamburger is he himself very yeshivish and his push is to keep minhogei Ashkenaz, nothing to do with Torah im Derech Eretz
Fishel
"Chasam Sofer would not be happy"
You think the Chasam Sofer would be more happy if the big shull on Lee Avenue would be sold for Visnitz of across the street?
Henry
"Hamburger is he himself very yeshivish and his push is to keep minhogei Ashkenaz,"
Hamburger and Goldhaber Ashkenaz revival dreamers look very good on paper, but it will never return,
Do you have new statistic of how many Chupath Talith we had in 2010?
"You think the Chasam Sofer would be more happy if the big shull on Lee Avenue would be sold for Visnitz of across the street?"
Why would the Chasam Sofer have a problem with Viznitz?
The point I made was that a kehilla CHANGING a nusach of a thousand years IS SOMETHING THE C.Sofer would oppose.
Sounds like you work for the nayeh Viener p.r department, btw
Why would any bocher or yungerman go to a dry,legalistic shiur when he could attend a "tish" by a mystical wise man who is meyached yichudim and supposedly changing the course of history by the way he eats the shabesdike maycholim?Would you rather wear a hat or a magnificent "shtriemel?"Bameh madlikin or kegavnoh? Case closed.
Azelche nisyonos ken men nit bayshteyn. No way.
Hirshel
What happened to Shneur? he does not speak Yiddish?
Why does the Squarer Rebbe wear a gold ring on his left index finger? you can see it in the picture online
Mendy
"Asking yingeleit to be "moicheh" against the people who disagree?"
All he asking that certain elements will not let the newcomers become members and have a vote in the Kehila matters.So the Rav is telling them that they have rights and should fight for it, It is no comparison to New Square terror, it is the opposite, the old guard will not get rid of their power on a Kehila that they don't belong their physically. It is against the democratic system and against the Torah.
װיען זאל איך געהן...
װער קען ענטפערען מיר?
װיען זאל איך געהן...
Anybody know the continuation of this WEVD song from yesteryear when all Vieners used to listen to Ben Basenko and Miriam Kressin? I know, I know it's ...װי אהין
But what can I do? I read about Vien and this melody comes to mind.
Hey Bobover. Now Vien also has a theme song, not only Belz main shtetele Belz.
Wow!
What an eye opener.
If and when you read this manifesto, the 8 page Shalesh Seudos Torah, be careful you might vomit.
I simply can not believe that a Rav, especially a Rav of an old Kehilah can use such language, and with such an open rebellious tone.
A Rav as opposed to a Rebbe, who is hired by a kehilah, is an EMPLOYEE of the Kehillah and its board.
He has the authority to decide Halachic issues and is the prime Torah authority in the Kehila. As such the members must adhere and follow his Torah rulings.
But, he has absolutly NO authority or any type of rights to the financial assets and/or real property or any other monetary belongings of the kehila. This is simple and straight Halacha.
(it is also the legal NYS law)
What he is demanding and requesting is shameful, unlawful and pure Chutzpah.
The words he uses to describe himself are beneath any decent person, let alone a Rav that gives Mussar speeches to the public.
It gives the impression that the person who said this Drosho is void of any internal value, אין לו תוכן בכלל
he is a complete חיצוניותדיגע person.
What a shame for the Viener kehila.
I wonder if he actually has a true following, o
Fishel
"Why would the Chasam Sofer have a problem with Viznitz?"
my friend, the Chasam Sofer has a problem with every Ashekenazic Jew that changes the nusach, Visnitz is not exempt from his criticism.The are all original Ashekenazic Jews that changed the Nusach. He is against changing the nusach on a big scale,period. It is permitted for individuals as his 2 Rebbes, Reb Nusen adleR and the Baal Hafloeh. Take the teshuva and read it thru.
Upteilin comes naturally to the Hungarians
Fishel
"Sounds like you work for the nayeh Viener p.r department, btw"
I have no allegiance to Vien old or new,but I knew Reb Anshel 20 or so years ago, as a Yungerman.
Lach Udra
"Why would any bocher or yungerman go to a dry,legalistic shiur when he could attend a "tish" by a mystical wise man"
If you will look on the facts in Hungary, you will see that chasidus brought Torah to that godforsaken land. The Chasidic families were sending all the boys to Yeshivahs vs, the non Chasidic families.
Shlmoah Hakoten
I assume that you did not read the Derosha, he is saying that Mr, Lipshitz Z"l.Mr, Shonberger and Mr. Friedman do have the full respect and they are consulting all the Hanhuges Hakehila with him for the last 20 years,and they are the Talmidie Chachomim and the Pnie Hakehila. But certain nobodies who accidentally are sitting by the helm of the Kehila are harassing the new blood that was infused in the Kehila.
שניאור רעדט א אידישן דיאלעקט וואס רופט זיך ליטווישע אידיש. זעלטן וואס מע הערט אזא מאדנע שפּראך אין די פארפרומטע גאסן פון
בּרוקלינ
Anonymous
I wrote its shame that Hungarian Oberlander Judiasm has passed on to history and its a shame. Its a shame to lose any Massorah and any shevet that is lost is a loss to klal israel. As far as to what I know about Hungarian Jews , all I can say is that some people in Wilaimsburg have paid me for my knowledge on this subject... perhaps I engaged in fraud when I acepted their money, so please call me to a dintoreh... if you feel differently
Shlomo Hakoten
"It gives the impression that the person who said this Drosho is void of any internal value, אין לו תוכן בכלל"
the first 2 pages of his derosha is beautiful derush, with interesting new sources that ani hakoten never heard about it.
You can say on Reb Anshil whatever, but dont say he has no contents, his Deroshas are followed by multiple Rabonim, they use it for their Deroshas a lot. I can not vouch how much of that Derusha is Leshem Shomaim and how much it is Kevoid Atzmoi Doiresh, since only God can see the hearths. But contents he does have.
Anon5:04 I'm talking about America not Europe.
Shloma Hakoten
"He has the authority to decide Halachic issues and is the prime Torah authority in the Kehila"
is deciding who should be a member and who should not be, a Halachisc matter? where should it get solved by Raboim? or by some red neck Judge in Iowa?
Henry , You have got to be kidding. The kehillo may be steadfast in its minhogim and has a choir, but where is the TIDE in the shul.Unless you wish to bring Ashkenaz back to the days of the Maharil which is fine with me.
Do either of the chashuve rabbonim know anything about Minhoge Ashkenaz or rav Hirsch ?
Friday night at the KAJ the noise and movement and tummult reminds one of a regular shul some place in Flatbush . Yes I forgot about the choir. as if that is the sum total of Ashkenaz.And I say this with total derech eretz for the worshippers, clergy and shul. Believe me I have only respect for KAJ its schools activities and glorious history. but do not live in a world of romantic dreams.
Secular education is not sought after in KAJ and certainly not a plus for the clergy. So except for the nusach how does KAJ differ in hashkofa froma yeshiva minyon or shul in Flatbush ? Even the OU or ow is basically gone too!
zalmen
"that some people in Wilaimsburg have paid me for my knowledge on this subject"
You were paid to study it, I lived it,
For you it is like researching the Zulu tribe in Africa, for me it is only knowing my family
Anonymous,
Ich hob pashut fargessen mayne mama lashon und izter reyd ich nor English und a bissel deutsch. Ich vintch alemen a gutten cheydesh und kol tov
18TH century Judaism was far more complex and far more interesting than what followed. The disappearance of Oberlander Jewry is sad, because how many examples of 18th century traditional Jewry do we have, that we can afford to be blasé about such an event? It’s not just the disappearance of Ashkenazi minhagim, it’s also the disappearance of their distinct dialect Yiddish Deutsch, which in and of itself involves a certain acculturation. You can find this Yiddish dialect in many of the seforim of R. Yaakov Emden, when he reprints the depositions he took in the persecution of the Sabbateans and Frankists. True the Mattesdorfer Rav spoke something similar to Yiddish Deutsch but I doubt if his children or grandchildren carry on the language. The same for Erlau.
If you read comments on the internet, German Jewry is always Rabbi S.R. Hirsch and the Breuer kehilah, when in fact this was a small, somewhat eccentric part of the German speaking Orthodox world. It excludes Oberlander like Rabbi Hildesheimer on the left, who eventually tired of the endless Orthodox- Neolog fights and went on to establish the Seminary in Berlin. It excludes people like the Kesav Sofer who was considered a moderate in the fight for austritt in Hungary. It excludes the more rural Orthodox of South Germans, very similar to the Oberlander kehilos. And it conveniently fogets about the entire 18th century, the heyday of rabbinical leadership, ranging from Reb Yonason Eybeschutz on one end to Rabbi Nosson Adler on the other. 18TH century rabbis were diverse in their haskafos but were flexible enough not to split the Jewish world with secession issues. Many of the distinctive features of charedi life today is due to the fact that the Hirschians represent Central European Jewry, Satmar Hungarian Jewry and Slabodka-Brisk Lithuanian Jewry.
Evanston
good analysis
Evanston: For you 18th C. German Jewry is research while for me-I actually live in the 18th century. I think you'll agree there's quite a difference....Veise zukn,shtrukes,fertl shich-I actually look alot like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin..So don't tell me about the 18th Century!
Anshel
what about Soif Zman Tefila Shabos Morning?
anon 5:19
can you read?
I wrote he has no "internal value" אין לו תוכן כלל
that means HE has no תוכן
Any person with a sense of seriousness and inner values would never stoop so low to give such a drosho.
[I was not refering to his speeches which could possibly contain good vertlach, which he might be plagarized or taken from previous sources]
anon 5:23
deciding who is a member is definitly not a Halacic issue.
It should be, and has always been, in all other kehilos as well, decided by the Board of Directors, not by its hired Rav.
A Rav [a hired and salaried Rav]has absolutly no right to get involved in this issue
?די זולוס גייען צו די בחירות
anon 5:11
Yes, I did read the Drosho.
In fact I read it and could not believe my eyes so I went ahead and re-read it.
It is a shame for a Rav to speak like this.
This is basically Mikveh-Talk.
"Es past nisht"
But more then that,
What is the hidden curse, if one doesnt help him achieve his goals he is בכלל ארור , if one wants to keep the kehila as it was he is cursed.
A shame.
The self gratulation and acknowledgement of his superiority re: other Rabbonim, is gross and obnoxious.
The whole contents and tone, is shameful
He has tochen. His Drasha Has tochen. He said that HE is the maikim haTorah and that he is the neshamah of a tzadik (that is why he has misnagdim) and that he is an ish shalom.
He changed the kehila and ignored the members that were there when he came and now he is upset that those same people ignore his cronies. He is zoche to be "yokim es haTorah hazos" but not the dayanim in Maonsy and BP? The yeshivos he closed down is 'yokim"?
he fights with the baalie batim and the dayanim and he is the ish shalom?
he should consider - maybe HE is the misnaged sent from shomayim to ruin the kehilla - as he said from the Bais Yisroel - every good thing has a misnaged to block it.
Rav Katz is a very choshuve yid from a very respecful family.His brothers are also very gifted.That being said, I have to agree with Shlomo Hakoton and Mendel Hirsh, that ess past nisht for him.I think he is a pleasant man and has not been involved in machloikes.I just think this derusha iz nisht tzim zach.Especially in light of his claims that the "troublemakers" don't have kids or grandkids in the mosdos.If that's the case Rav Katz will eventually win, why try and push a fight now?In a couple of years Vien will be totally chasidish, why jump the gun.
Anyone know what went down with his big brother as Belzer Rav of American Khal Machzikei Haddas?
Reb Chaim Lieb Katz is a very independent thinker, and was not ready to put up forever with whims of the Holy Rebbe of Agrifas. He has views that Range from his extreme Rebbe of Kashau to 770 Chabad.This kind of personalities are not made to be a Rav Mitam(term in Russia for government ordained rabonim)as all Rabonim and Dayonim that are are chasidus/yeshivah affiliated. Did you hear a independent voice from al 15 Dayonim of Skver? why not? they are all on a payroll from this fiefdoms.With any little streak of non compliance, their career is gone.Reb Chaim Lieb but, kept a relationship with Belzer Kehila, and he is very well respected by them.
Mendel Hirsch,
"He changed the kehila and ignored the members that were there when he came"
what did Reb Hersh Lipschutz say on the change?
He was the Rosh Hakohol, yes or no?
There are some people that don't like it, but that doesn't say they are the majority even from the old Kehila?
Mendel
"he fights with the baalie batim and the dayanim and he is the ish shalom?
is he in a fight with Rav Halperin or Fisher?
Mendel
"maybe HE is the misnaged sent from shomayim to ruin the kehilla"
Ruin what Kehila? before he came there was noting to ruin in the Willi shul? It was gone literally empty,
Shlomo Hakoten
"The self gratulation and acknowledgement of his superiority re: other Rabbonim, is gross and obnoxious."
he did not belittle no other Rabonim in his speech, he is trying to lay out his argument.
Shlomo Hakoton
"It should be, and has always been, in all other kehilos as well, decided by the Board of Directors, not by its hired Rav."
you really think that in Prague when their were Kehila matters it did not go to the bies din of Reb Yechezkel Landau? or in Pressburgh, the Kehila indifferences were not discussed by Reb Moshe Sofer?
If you say different, I would need solid proof.
There is a Halacha that a stolen Sefer Torah from a town should be discussed outsude of that town, but the facts and history were different.
Shlomo Hakoton
"I wrote he has no "internal value" אין לו תוכן כלל
that means HE has no תוכן "
I never saw so much chutzpa from a layman in my life. Reb Anshel, when he was a bocher and yungerman in his own quite way away from the limelight, was considered from the cream of the crop that the Ungarisch world had to offer. His 16 hours a day of learning his Davening and his Chesed of Matan Beseser was a Shem Duver in town. Are you close to leading such a rich life of Torah,Avoda and Gemach? that you can judge him.
What a chutzpa and Tipshes to spit statements like yours.
Disclaimer,I am not a Viener at all, have no relationship today with the Rav at all,Just observed him in his youth, when no big Rabunas position was on the horizon.
bobov bobov, you always manage to to get it up and running, showing for all readers the true colors of the glorified bobov chassidus. but what drives me more insane is the belz bashing, even though i agree with you, why the repeat?
Shlomo Hakoten
"which could possibly contain good vertlach, which he might be plagarized or taken from previous sources]"
Why the accusation?
Are you accusing him of plagiarizing all his 12 Volumes Shemen Rosh? Amazing,
2 items:
1. Ke'gavnu vs Ba'Meh Madlikin, clear that Chazan Pintchik settled that in a splendifirous way.
2. Yiddish: True that "enk" "etz" is grub , should always be "Eich" "Ihr" "Iyere".
If you live near people who slur their own language, you tend to slur yours.
anon 11:44
{I wonder if the readers on this blog are simply stupid or they can't read]
Again.. This is what I wrote..
" It gives the impression that the person who said this Drosho is void of any internal value, אין לו תובן כלל,"
I do not know the Viener Rav personally, and have no שייכות to the Viener.
I am discussing the Drosho I read, which was posted on line and I heard that it was distributed by the Ravs people. Again the Drosho is awful, empty, and YES, IT DEFINITLY does give the impression that the person who said it has no inner value. I do not believe that you see any other side in the posted Drosho.
anon 11:27
Please read page 6'
איך פיל איך טוה מיין פליכט פאר קהל עדת יראים מער ווי סיי וועלכע רב אויפן וועלט געט אוועק פאר זיין קהלה טוה איך פאר מיין קהל
what do you make of this sentence.
1. Ke'gavnu vs Ba'Meh Madlikin, clear that Chazan Pintchik settled that in a splendifirous way.
I'll be thinking of his splendifirous version of " Rozo deShabbes" tonight before mayrev.I think it's available on You Tube,for those who want to hear one of the greatest pieces of hazzones.
Shlomo Hakoton
"I do not know the Viener Rav personally, and have no שייכות to the Viener."
if it is true,(which I barely believe), that you don't know him,and if you are a Mamin Behashem veToirosoi then you should know you are messing around with of the Yechidie Segula of our generation. You did not play with him in one sand box.You can disagree with his approach, all Gedolim had a meltdown period. And you can claim that he has now is meltdown. But you should know he is no Rebelle that is on the arena, because he owns a certain family name.
I am no Viener either, but I know him good and for a long time.
anon 1:04
What is [are] the 12 volumes Shemen Rosh?
Is it sforim that the Viener Rav wrote?
Is it on Agadata or is it Halacha or on Chiddushim on Shas.
I am sorry I have never seen them.
@anon 11:22, 11:23, 11:25
HE said before he was voted on and at his hachtarah in his drasha that he will not change any minhagim and is there to uphold the old way. He lied. I never spoke to Reb Hash Lipshitz about it.
He closed down the Yeshivos that the Dayanim Halperin and Fisher had. Do think that is not a fight? The fact that they didn't fight back means THEY are rodfai shalom, not Reb Anshel Katz. They each have mosdos in their cities. He mingles in all the hanala there and strips each dayan from his representation in those mosdos. Is that not a fight? There are people trying for shalom for years in Vein. It is NOT RAA Katz!
The fact that the Willi shul mostly had old people (who also deserve the shul they built and the kehila they know! We don't discard our old for the dust like RAA Katz and his chevra) doesn't mean Oberland was dead. He is trying to kill it, but there is a kehilla in BP and there is Kehilla in Monsey. They had a growing yeshivah in PB (that wasn't just for satmar bums) but he shut it down 'cause it wasn't chassidish enough. He didn't want the Oberlander way to have talmidim. Then he complains that 'they' don't send to the mosdos.
He stole the summer camp and made it chassidish and then complains 'they' dont send their children.
Look, he took a kehilla with oberlander mosdos, made the mosdos chassidish or closed them down. I call that RUINING a kehilla! I think he was sent min hashomayim to be misnaged to the Kehilla and now finally the kehila is defending itself.
Shlomo Hakoton,
Shemen rosh is his sefer al hatorah. his drashos from shalosh seudos. he doesn't plagiarize, he just quotes other people. Sort of like in this drasha. In my opinion, they are all very similar to this drahsa. However, discount my opinion because I know him well and I have learned over the past 15 years that he is a self righteous, egocentric person and i have little respect for him.
anon 5:37
would you mind,
Please explain yourself, and what you are trying to say.
I dont know what you are talking about.
איך האב געמיינט אז דער מנהל הבלאג איז א אייניקל פון קול אריה אויב יא דארף ער זיך אוננעמען פאר א משפחה
בלוט איז נישט קיין וואסער
Anonymous. This has nothing tod with the subject matter at hand. But how do you know I have no personal angle with Hungarian Jewry, are you familiar with all my melamdim, people I interacted with in my oyuth etc. rabbis etc and people who influenced me. Do you know all my relations?
Whats it toy ou what I know what I don't know after all this is not the Holy DER YID whre everything has to be hard fact.There are people on this blog who write as experts on Lubavitch,Chabad . Lithuania and in fact maybe they too are talking about Zulus or better said Zalis.
There has been a sea change in the nature of rabbonus in the Charedi world since 1945. Before 1945 rabbonim were elected in fairly democratic elections by Baale Batim witness the controversial election of Rabbi JT as rav of Sakmar. Or the election of rabbi meir Schapiro as rav of Lodz (a position he died before assuming) or the choice and election of rabbonim in Frankfurt austritt gemeinde after the death of rabbi Solomon Breuer. Rabbanus was elected , as Saul Stampfer has shown only in the last 200 years has the idea of yerusha really assumed a major role in rabbanus but even then rabbonim were still elected.
Since the end of World war 2 only a few charedi communities elect rabbonim or chose rabbonim like the Eda in Jslm and MHD in Antwerrp or KAJ in WH.Otherwise rabbanim own their kehillos and chose their lay leaders. Baalebatim are just hand maidens of powerful rabbonim who own their communities lock stock etc.In many cases these rabbonim have more power and money than many of their baalebatim. Panim Chadashoth reported that the 2nd rav of Adas yereim died leavign a yerusha of $18 million. Perhaps this was a typical exxageration of Reb Chaim , but who knows ?
In Williamsburg I have been told rabbi Katz is the last rav to be elected by his shul all other shuls are the property of the rabbonim or of a Rebbe (Belz, Klausenberg,Bobov and serve that chassidus). I bet the same is true in BP and perhaps in Faltbush with the exception of MO and Aguda shuls. That said I think some institutions are better off having din yerusha while others are not. Men like rav Shach (Ponoviesz) Rabbi Amital (The Gush) and others were agaisnt yerusha, Dr. Moshe Wallach the zaddik NK supporter who ran Shaare Zedek hospital was completely against family operations and refused to allow relatives any jobs in SZ Hospital even if qualified.
I leave it to sociologists to debate why the nature of rabbanus has changed.
It seems like the satmar revolution or evolution is alive and well and going forward
Schneur,
you must not forget, that many communities and their rabbonim in Europe, and especially those under German Imperial or Hapsburg jurisdiction ( which includes Galicia, Hungary, Slovakia and parts of Romania ) were at least partly funded by the government and by the "Kultus Steuer" ( religious tax ). This tax had to be paid by every citizen to his respective denomination and was collected by the fiscal authorities, who, in turn, allocated it to the various communities.
Things are different in the U.S.A.,where congregations are -per constitution- private enterprises and don't enjoy the same status as did communities in many parts of Europe. I also think, that rabbonim in independent Poland, including former Czarist territories, were salaried by the government, but I am not sure of this.
What I am trying to say is, that the situation in Europe was totally different from the U.S.A. and necessitated elections of the Rov.
YK. If what you say is correct, and you make an excellent case, why then did the vast majority of congregations started prior to 1940 not belong to individual rabbis and even today the MO shuls are all not owned by their rabbis.
Growing up in NH , CT there were well over 10-11 orthodox congregations NONE owned by the rabbi. Same was true in Bpt, Hartford, all over.
i presume places like the Lower eats side and Chicago had chassidic rebbes who owned their shuls but this was not the norm. Yet all the large shuls in NY were public institutions .If they were private there would be no need for an Agudas Horabonim... and their complainst of lack of parniossah and their need to get into hechsherim to make a living.
If we accept your economic/political explaination we are left in the dark why the masses of MO Jews in places like Teaneck, Riverdale, LA, Upper west Side West Ornage all belogn to shuls that are owned and managed by lay people.Teaneck should have 40-50 shtiblech owned by all sorts of MO rabbis.Yet I can not think of one whose nechosim are owned by the rav! Why is it that rabbi Riskin did not own the LSS How come rabbi Lookstein does not own KJ and others ?Rabbi Arthur Schneier does not own the PES, I doubt there is a rabbinically owned shul in Bergen County.The Spanish Portuguesse synagogue has been around for hundreds of years and yes its a public institution as was the oldest East European shul BMH on the LES until its demise. recently
So it is not odd acccording to your shitah that the most American branch of orthodoxy continues the European model of rabbinic leadership vz shuls and the least american seems to be plugged into the AMERICAN MODEL AS YOU STATE YELAMDENU RABBEINU ?
What I am driving at is the entrepenurial nature of Charedi (at least part of it)udiasm where money, power and kavod are all there is so why share it , the rav rebbe manhig uses the shul instead of a nursing home, or real estate for his business, nothing is off limits for the profit drive. Thus yeshivas, mikvehs, shuls and who knows what else are all private businesses (not institutions ) in the Charedi world , while in the mO world the same are all public institutions.
"Growing up in NH , CT there were well over 10-11 orthodox congregations NONE owned by the rabbi"
that's why there is none there now! (except charedi) the same happened at YU when their rabbi died because of the board own kehila.. or in the rest of the land,I would not say the present model of kehilas is good but from a chredi standpoint it's the only way kehilos can work today.
A hassidic chapel is not the same as a communal synagogue.Are shiraim just morsels of food?Can one compare a sprawling,suburban MO shule to an intensely focused chassidic prayer center?Doesn't kavannah count for anything?Hence different religious entities need to be treated differently in terms of ownership and jurisdiction.
Mendel Hirsch
"HE said before he was voted on and at his hachtarah in his drasha that he will not change any minhagim and is there to uphold the old way. He lied"
did he consult Rav Wosner before he made the first change?
I think it was Hakofas on Shemini Atzeres?
Nobody told Rav Wosner that Rav Katz is a blatant liar? He promised and he renneges
Mendel Hersch
"He closed down the Yeshivos that the Dayanim Halperin and Fisher had"
I dont know about Halperoins mosdois, but if I remember correctly the Viener mesivta was a big failure(and I will admit it still is)by Rav Fischer, when Rav Katz was ordained as the Rav, he tried to infuse new blood in the yeshivah. He tried so many ways but did not succeed, but Rav Fischer was old school and no changes were possible with him, so he was replaced. You are building conspiracies on lies and misinformation.
Btw, why did the Kehila not take Rav fischer for Rav?he was a local boy, he would hold the minhogim till the last guy would close the lights.
Were the votes fixed by Rav Katz?
anon 10:11
Rav Katz had a yeshiva when he was Rabbi of Sombothel, and it was a great flop and failure.
Also, after Fischer was replaced in Vien, whatever Rav Katz tried was a flop, so what does all that have to do with Dayen Fischer.
@ANON 10:02
I did not speak about if it mutter to make changes. He may have spoken to Rav Wosner. But that is not the issue. HE said he won't make changes. but, He never even tried to keep the old way. He made changes right away. That is a LIE in plain English or SHEKER if loshon hakodesh. the halacha shaaleh of is changing to sfard mutter has nothing to do with it.
@ anon 10:11
RAAK had a yeshiva in sumbetehel, (his rabistava before Vein). That failed. He has tried a veiner yeshiva since fisher. it failed. Fisher was rosh yeshiva even when the Hudhazer Z"L was Veiner rov. RAAK came in and then it failed! you see a pettern here? I do. And it involves RAAK and failed yeshivos not Dayan Fisher.
"but rav fisher was old school...." once again the fault is 'old school'. Are you reform or something? Since when is old school a bad thing? Ever hear of 'if it aint broke, don't fix it'? RAAK just wanted it to be more chasidish, but there was nothing wrong with the yeshivah under dayan fisher. (other than being 'old Vein' and RAAK couldn't stand it. so he stole the yeshivah from fisher, stole the camp and made it chasidish closed down the BP yeshivah because he couldn't make it chasidish AND then he complains that the real veiners don't send their children to the mosdos.
It's like the guy who kills his parents and asks for mercy as a yosom. RAAK killed the mosdos and is upset no one sends.
"Btw, why did the Kehila not take Rav fischer for Rav?" That is a good question. I wasn't directly involved so i don't know for sure. we can speculuate that davke because he was a local boy they didn't take him. It is well known that kehillos don't like to take local boys so much. However, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAAK!! even if Dayan Fisher is not the right person for Rov, he could be a great Rosh Yeshivah. and if he isn't, so what? RAAK is the one who is rov. he is bound by his promises and he has stolen and is trying toruin the kehilla. He is the misnaged sent from shamayim to stop a good thing and BH the kehilla is finally standing up for itself to save the good. (to paraphrase RAAK).
Anon
"Rav Katz had a yeshiva when he was Rabbi of Sombothel, and it was a great flop and failure."
It is a lie, it was a baal batishe yeshivah.
Schneur, as a non-American I am lacking the in-depth knowledge necessary to voice an objective opinion about the structures of American congregations. Nevertheless, it seems to me that there exist basically two types of communities:
a) those owned by the rov
b) those owning the rov.
None of them can claim to be a continuation of the old time European communities, where the Rov was elected - by giving preference to a suitable family member of the former Rov - and whose contract could never be terminated.
Mendel Hirsch
"He never even tried to keep the old way. He made changes right away. That is a LIE in plain English or SHEKER if loshon hakodesh. the halacha shaaleh of is changing to sfard mutter has nothing to do with it."
did nobody in the Kehila that heard the promise contact rav wosner? Ribono Shel Olam, it is not just a Loi Sisgodedu shiela, it is a question of a low life liar?
Do you have the transcript of the first derosha with the promise?
Which year after his new rabunas did he statrted changing? Didnt he give a derosha on the change?
Am I correct with my recollection that his first change was the Hakofas shemini Atezeres? what year was it?
Mendel Hirsch
"Fisher was rosh yeshiva even when the Hudhazer Z"L was Veiner rov."
the last years of the Hothiezer the Yeshivah was dwindling down, it did not start in the new ruv years.It is also very important to mention that by Rav Katz 90% of his Talmidim became part of the Kehila and if not the old idiotic yekkes there would have been even more Talmidim in the Kehila, By the Huthiezer nobody joined the Kehila, they all left to other kehilahs.
Mendel Hirsch
"stole the camp and made it chasidish closed down the BP yeshivah because he couldn't make it chasidish"
BTW, Is having a bigger learning curriculum in July and August and less base ball, Chasidish or derech chasam sofer?
Is the camp not full to the brim with the new administration?
@anon 12:53
I'm not sure what you mean. The 3 bachurim that he had became baalei batim? so it was not a failure?
@anon 1:04
I don't of anyone that tried to contact rav wosner. Why? have you heard that rav wosner was matir his neder made al daas rabim? bifnei rabim? (and yes that would make RAAK a low life liar).
@ anon 1:09
90% of RAAK talmidim joined a different kehilla led by yoily roth.
During the hodhazer z"l many talmidim joined vein. many of the veiners today are his talmidim. but you exposed yourself again. You just don't like vein. you defend RAAK not by the fact but because you dislike vein. to you they are 'idotic yekkehs'. If you don't like yekkehs go to satmar, but don't force your way on vein. (Shame on you for despising a group of yidden that way, calling them idiotic.)
@ anon 1:13
firing the staff and administration, removing the kehilla leaders that ran it for years, bringing in satmar bums to be counselors and changing the rules so that veiner 'idiotic yekkehs' won't send their kids = stealing a camp. I don't care how successful it is under your new 'found' leadership. that is so off the point.
Mendel Hirsch
Was it really a neder al daas rabim with all its implication? even if you would chas vesholem believe that the Rav sinned,You probably know the chazal ....Al Teharar Olouv baYom Shemo Osu Teshuva...Plus you have no idea if he asked rav wosner a heter on his move.
To get the facts straight, he had a Yeshivah in Szombotahali of 50 boys for sure, if you accuse one of the Gedolie Hadoir on lying , at least don't have the chutzpa to lie in the heat of this discussion.
Yoely Roth is a cheder thing and it happened lately,
If the Hothiezer talmidim would stick to vien, it would be 50 times the size.
I don't hate Viener yiden(how can you hate a object or group that does not exist?), there is no issur to call a idiot a idiot, but badmouthing Gedolie yisroel is kefira and the Gehienom is too little for you.
Memdel Hirsch
"I don't care how successful it is under your new 'found' leadership. that is so off the point."
if you don't care the size and the success, then why are you chewing it when you discuss the Ravs successes rate of his yeshiva leadership?
Mendel Hirsch
"removing the kehilla leaders that ran it for years"
what is the name of the manager in the Parksville camp? he looks like a viener yekke to me.
Mendel Hirsch
"bringing in satmar bums to be counselors"
I will answer you with your own words
"Shame on you for despising a group of yidden that way, calling them ...."
I seemed to have missed a lot.
I wasn't aware of this thread.
Oh Yes, The Viener Rav is really one of the Yechidai Segulah of this dor.
I don't believe any other Rav in America comes close to him.
He receives a salary of over $120,000. per year, plus medical insurance, plus he gets paid rent for the house he owns and lives in, plus a car and driver, and other benefits.
Yes everyone will agree, he is an a league by himself, no other Rav of a kehila comes close.
Oh, and he works extremely hard, for all this pay.
He gives a weekly shalosh seudah torah, one or two shiurim to Baalei Batim, and throw in a perek drosho. All this for the above salary.
Yechidai Segulah
Anon,
'Al teharer' applies if you don't see him continue doing it again and again.
No issur? Mechaneh shem! A whole segment of klal Yisroel? All yekkehs? I'm sure Hashem is very proud of you.
I haven't bad mouth gedolai Yisroel. Even if the RAAK isn't a liar etc. what makes him a gadol be'yisroel? 100 chassidim? A peltz?
I mentioned his lack of succes in the yeshivah as response to your comment that RAAK chased out Dayan fisher to 'grow' the yeshiva. (a moot point as it still is self serving and not true.)
Identifying a person as a bum is not 'despising' nor a group.
all in all, you did a great job defending his LIE about changing minhagim by saying maybe he got a heter. His stealing and closing mosdos by saying that at least he tried something new. He fought with Dayan Fisher because he is old time and an idiot. You defended his shameful hatred of the old veiners by saying you hate them too. good job! But what about the other issues? His GAAVA that he is a nefesh tzadik min hashamyim. His trying to intall his son a dayan without the kehilla's permission. these are also his gadlus?
who paid for the weddings he paid in the Shul.
let's not forget that he changed the Beis Hkneses (without a mezuza on the entrance) to a social hall.
This should be a lesson to all non Chassishe kehillos and Shuls. Don't take a Chusid to be your Rav. Promises ahin, promises aher.
שום תשים עליך מלך....לא תוכל לתת עליך איש נכרי אשר לא מזרעך הוא
The Inmates are Running the Asylum...
This topic wasn't touched already for years, but as i found it randomly, and i look at the vien kehila today, i can see a nice big kehila of hundreds chasidish people who are following the ruv, mosdos chinuch of hundreds of children in williamsburg, and the same in b.p. and monsey, and a nice chasidish yeshivah of over 100 buchirem that's located in "crown heights", lately opened a yeshiva ketane in monsey, very well named kolelim of yingaleit that are standing out with their torah and yiras shumayim and midos tovos, and heaving under his leadership 3 shuls in boro park, and 2 in monsey, he has by his shalesh sidas tish hundreds of people from all around williamsburg, something that wouldn't happen if he wouldn't change the style of that ashkenaizisha kehilah that was on the way down the drain, I was sure he had a further look with that change he made. he is leading a nice big kehila "with no machlokels in there", the whole machlokes that was 2011 came from a few trouble makers in the kehila, and he did everything possible to make order in there, as he describe in the drushe.
It was for sure a good move, Now we can see the great results.
stop being stupid.
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