Wednesday, June 6, 2012

Is the Agudath Israel misusing Reb Chaim Brisker's name here?



































After all, Reb Chaim did rescind his support from the Agudah. So despite the fact that he originally supported the idea of an Agudah of Charedim, in the end he didn't. So to say, 100 years later, in an ad for the CURRENT Agudah, that Reb Chaim supported them, is somewhat disingenuous, no? Reb Chaim's picture is second from the left.

27 comments:

harediandproud said...

Not disingenuous at all. Read what it says

"Some of the Gedolei Yisroel who enthusiastically supported the CONFERENCE".

Which is true. The article itself is about the conference as well. Any inferences are in your mind only.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and since there was a conference 100 years ago, therefore?

but you do your job well, H.A.P.

I'll grant you that.

חזק ואמץ

Jewandproud said...

hirshel
you are correct, its advetizing with intention to fool the consumer,
But was the reason that reb chaim deserted the idea?

harediandproud said...

Thanks.

It's overall theme is to push the siyum hashas. However this specific article is about the Katovitz conference, hence the reference to RC"B

Reb Volf said...

Tzig right on - I would suggest everyone read מקאטוויץ עד ה' באייר from R Tzvi Weinman (back in the day you had to get it from his house in Maalos Dafneh but now that he was meshadech all his kids you can find it in some seforim stores) and learn all about what happened with Rav Chaim and his takonos that they did not accept. Also you will learn a lot more about RYML. Required reading for all intelligent bnei tayreh

yankel said...

1. I have seen mikatovitz in Judaica Plaza in Lakewood.
2. R' Chaim made 18 conditions for his joining with Aguda which Rosenheim rejected.
3. R' Chaim is reported to have said after Katowitz "I thought it would be Poilishe Da'as Torah and German money, now I see it Polish money and German da'as torah"

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

" Read what it says

"Some of the Gedolei Yisroel who enthusiastically supported the CONFERENCE".

Which is true. The article itself is about the conference as well. Any inferences are in your mind only."

Of course, the point is to lie with out saying so outright. The point is R. Chaim supported the conference that lead to the founding of Agudah. The logical inference is that R. Chaim supported Agudah. Which is not true of course. What would be the point of writing who supported the conference in ancient history?

tomoshaver said...

why do they have a need to lie, when they have the chofetz chaim and reb chaim oizer?
The are more popular by the masses then Reb Chaim?

קרנות צדיק said...

The agudah of today! By definition is synounomus with audacity and lies. 90% of the original supporters - included the c"c and r' c"o - would of probably by now קרע קריעה שאינו מתאחה on the agudah! Let alone the brisker ruv! Who would of מחרים אותם באלף שופרותthe agudah of today! Their חוצפּה יתירה בלי בושה, שאין לה גבול is compounded by the numness of the brisker talmidim on the desecration of their rebbe!

This cutzpah reminds me of a story when they made the first agudah convention here in America they approched the satmar rav z"l to join them without any pre conditions he can say his un- filtered daas torah for all to hear! The satmar ruv חכם עדיף מנביא, שירד לסוף דעתם של הרשעים ההםunderstood that they want probably a photo op (so in later years they can pull a 'like this brisker shtig on him') answered "I can not go because I'll be the 'only' agudist between so many zionistin" .ודפּח"ח

וכל קרני רשעים אגדע תרוממנה קרנות צדיק

ACK said...

Tzig - help me out here with something that has bothered me for quite a while. Anyone who knows and has a sense of history fully understands the circumstances of the times 100 years ago that caused the creation to the Agudah.

I think that we can safely say, that none of those reasons apply any longer. What is the purpose of the Agudah today?

I am not saying that the Agudah doesn't do some good things, but why must an organization that lost its relevance continue on. Is it just the law of inertia?

As an aside, there are many organizations that have the same issue, on a smaller scale. For example, why does Ezras Toah still exist? Are American jews still sending money to support talmidei chachomim in Lita during the depression. I think the depression and jewry in Lita ended about 70 years ago.

Why does all the various Rabbi Meir Baal Haness organizations still exist? I am not chas v'sholom saying the funds are wasted, but the original premise for these organizations no longer exist. They exist due to simple inertia. Just like the Agudah.

This is, of course, why there is the big focus on the Siyum HaShas. It is needed to keep the Agudah relevant.

פּאסקָוניַאק said...

tomoshaver: "why do they have a need to lie, when they have the chofetz chaim and reb chaim oizer?
The are more popular by the masses then Reb Chaim?"


This פּאסקָוניַאק calling him self the tomo-shov'er is falsifying history and ומוציא שם רע על גדולי ישראל כמו החפץ חיים ור' חיים עוזר ז"ל as if they have justified the current aguda c"v, when in fact not one word of the current events was even mentioned in the resolutions or manifests from the convention about a medina let alone of the agudah becoming a card carrying member in a מדינת ישראל, לפני בּיאת המשיח עם חוקת עכו"ם

Will any Republican in the party of Abraham Lincoln justify Richard Nixon's behavior by saying it had the ok by Abraham Lincoln? Just because they belonged to the same party! How stupid will one get!

ההימיר גוי אלהים והמה לא אלהים, ועמי המיר כבודי בלוא יועיל
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33385&pgnum=4

Yochi G said...

My problem with this is twofold: 1. The fact that they used Reb Chaim Briskers name after he rescinded support of the Aguda 2. If its okay to use Reb Chaim Brisker what happened to the Rebbe Rashab who left together with Reb Chaim? Unless this is another Asifa spoof where Chabad is uninvited.

'קושיא א said...

The kotowice convention of 1912 and their resolutions were packaged as a call to torah and yirah! Now who will oppose to something like that! Right? Wrong! Some gedoli yisruel understood that their moto's are false you don't make a convention for all masses for 'torah and yirah!' only! That's the domain of each rav in his kehila!, so what was behind it! An asifa of rabunim - with many different opinions - to package it as one! From now on when the party will call for anything!!! it will be under the name off all Rabunim attended than, (till enternity) what a joke!

But really not such a joke because we have a klal אומר מותר אנוס so those who attendet naively or with blatant lies told to them before hand are from now obligated and declared an אנוס and why because of the:
'כלל, האומר מותר אנוס הוא , מכות ז

Therefore is it right for those rabunim who where naive (or let just say they didn't had a vision on the current aguda, with a medina and all the bells and whistles it comes with) and of course are not alive anymore, that we can commit atrocities under their names forever isn't this the ultimate chilul hashem to push those tzadigim attended an asifa called l'torah v'yirah into this molasses called agudah of today?!

אַז אסור said...

Yochi G: "what happened to the Rebbe Rashab who left together with Reb Chaim? Unless this is another Asifa spoof where Chabad is uninvited."

Good question, I would propose a 3 day asifa between lubab and satmar only! להחזיר עטרה ליושנה (No Agudistin in attendance) since both of our rebbes where vehemently opposed to zionisim and by extension agudistin, I'm serious here, this asifa can be a two-way-street, satmar will help the lubab's with 'local' issues (I'll rather not elaborate on this here..) and lubab will help fight off the aguda/litvakas invasion! In eretz yisruel or atleast in America!

Note: That the biggest leaders (not strictly learned only scholars) but visionary leaders tzadigim מנהיגי ישראל, כמו ר' חיים בליטא, המהרש"בּ ברוסיא, הבּעלזער בּגאליציע־פּוילין, המונקאטשער בּאונגארן־רומעניע, ואתם עמם מאות אחרים where all against an agudah even of than when the call was ‘l’torah v’yirah’ only!

yankel said...

Let us stop getting our knickers into a twist. Aguda lies about their support from Gedolim. That is what politics is. But there is nor much they can do wit their lie. If they have some kind of control on public opinion today, it is because of their actions today. They could not stop Citifield because they are not powerful enough. They give backing to the non-reporting of abuse that Yeshivos are looking for anyway.
If someone can give me one example of their power due to their lies, I will also be upset. But, in the meantime, it is just harmless fun. They lie and we call them out on it.

!יהודים התעררו said...

המלכות דפּה כבר פּשטה ידיה בּטהרת החינוך, בכשרות השחיטה, בּקדושת הבּרית מתחילה בּעצת בּלעם.. ועכשיו בּמצות מילה ממש! גוזרים גזירות נוראות להלשין על יהודים ועל שכיניו, מאסרים יותר מדי אחז יהודים משכיניהם הגויים רובּאשקין יוכיח! מעבדים החרידים בּמסים בּארנוניות יותר מדי שכיניהם הגויים, מבזים היהודים בּעתוניהם שלהם יותר משכיניהם הגויים, וכו' וכו' והלא דבר הוא! ואני אגלה לכל שבּרור הוא דמעשׂה הציונים בּאמצע, להלשין על החרידים בכל עת מצוא, ולהצר לנו הגלות דפּה, כמו שהם רגילים לעשׂות בּמדינת אחרים, כדי שלעזוב את הארץ ולעלות לגלותם הגלות בּין היהודים שהוא הרע האמיתי, יהודים התעררו

כ"ז הפּורעניות התחלת לשרוש עלינו, מתחילתו 'שרבּים' מבּני עמינו הולכים להתדיין עמהם.. זה כמה שנים, ובּשנים האחרונים פּשטה הממארת הזאת בסלתה ומשמנה! ג"כּ.. וחוץ ממה שהוא עון פּלילי שאין כמוהו, המה ראו וכן תמהו הזאת העם אשר אמרנו בּצלם נחי' והמב"י, ותצאותיו מי ישירנו

ACK said...

Tzig - I saw the ad today in the paper and something struck me way before the picture of R'Chaim.

Did you notice how they describe the movements of "secular nationalism" and socialism.

Has the Agudah become so politically correct that they can't call Zionism - "Zionism"? Who are they fooling by calling it "secular nationalism"? It almost sounds like they were started to fight the fascist movements.

Besides, weren't they trying to fight the Mizrachi, as well. So why are they picking on "secular nationalism", it was "religious nationalism" too.

And then the ad goes on to describe the "ravages of assimilation and Reform in Western Europe that made their way to the doorsteps of thousands of Jewish homes at the turn of the 20th century".

Do these clowns know any history? Assimilation and reform ravaged Western Europe at the turn of the NINTEETH century. By 1912, that battle in Western Europe was unfortunately long lost, with some small exceptions. Did they mean Eastern Europe?

tibi lotzi said...

Paskoniak
"This פּאסקָוניַאק calling him self the tomo-shov'er is falsifying history and ומוציא שם רע על גדולי ישראל כמו החפץ חיים ור' חיים עוזר ז"ל as if they have justified the current aguda c"v, when in fact not one word of the current events was even mentioned in the resolutions or manifests from the convention about a medina let alone of the agudah becoming a card carrying member in a מדינת ישראל, לפני בּיאת המשיח עם חוקת עכו"ם"


this satmar lie machine is humming again, the Chofetz Chaim and reb Chaim oizer had no problem, with a medina al pi torah, They were both real talmidie chachomim and they knew that Agadtta is not halaccha, they far from being Kanoim.....
Why are you lying as if the Satmar ruv was not against the agudah, when all gedolie yisroel were for it, as Rabbis Zonnenfeld,Duschinsky,Ungar Nitra, sofer Pressburgh, they were products from the tielung, and they were the builders of Aguda, while the satmar ruv hollered Kefira... you are a a demagouge,,,,

chuck said...

tibi lotzi said...

Zonnenfeld,Duschinsky,Ungar Nitra, sofer Pressburgh

the Chofetz Chaim and reb Chaim oizer had no problem, had no problem, with a medina al pi torah
----------


Zonnenfeld,Duschinsky,Ungar Nitra all became anti Aguda!!! when they found out what a bunch of liers the Aguda machine is!!! So did reb amrom blau who was an agudist to before their lies where exposed!


Chofetz Chaim and reb Chaim oizer had no problem, with a medina al pi torah. SOURCE PLEASE! with the seif koton! where they against cumetz on pesach to?!

מנהיגי ישראל, כמו ר' חיים בליטא, המהרש"בּ ברוסיא, הבּעלזער בּגאליציע־פּוילין, המונקאטשער בּאונגארן־רומעניע and satmar ruv! all wrote and where clear about their daas torah on these issues vs. you espouse lies lies lies lies! on gedola yisruel without any mekor whatsoever ! you just bark like a dog old regargled crap! even when it's clear as the sun! what an atrocity the aguda is!

Tibi Lotzi said...

Chuck
"Zonnenfeld,Duschinsky,Ungar Nitra all became anti Aguda!!! when they found out what a bunch of liers the Aguda machine is!!! So did reb amrom blau who was an agudist to before their lies where exposed!"

Lies Lies Lies, all this gedolim never retracted from the Aguda... I feel sorry for a person that eats and breathes satmar brainwash...
Reb Amrom was a born trouble maker.....was always into nihilism....

Tibi Lotzi said...

Chuck
The Belzer Ruv and Reb Chaim never wrote a letter against the aguda....

Lies Lies Lies

In matter of fact the holy Belzer Ruv retracted from the Belzer view on the Agudah by claiming it is as the orthodoxy in Magar country...I believe he was the closest person on earth to his fasther... even more then the Rebbe that was there for a shabos and did not even mekabol miores....

Rehov slonim 11 said...

Rav amram blau זצל was a אהב ישראל באמת...every שבת his table was filled with guests.... The חזן איש visited twice in jail ... He said the שבת is in jail...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“I am not chas v'sholom saying the funds are wasted, but the original premise for these organizations no longer exist. They exist due to simple inertia”

In English it is called the March of Dimes effect. Founded to cure Polio, they are now working on curing cancer. Or as we say “ a Mosod farmcht zich nisht’. The origin is in the Megilla, where it say “ Vayhe Behkabet Besulos Shenis u Mordicai Yoshev Beshar Hamelech”. If they had Esther why did they need to gather besulos again, because “ a Mosod farmcht zich nisht’

ben gemali said...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...
" a Mosod farmcht zich nisht "

Neither does your blabber mouth

pitputim said...

They should have used a picture of the Rav, or Rav Kook. They were both part of Aguda conventions too. Who cares about Aguda anyway.

Tibi Lotzi said...

Twistleton

"The origin is in the Megilla, where it say “ Vayhe Behkabet Besulos Shenis u Mordicai Yoshev Beshar Hamelech”. If they had Esther why did they need to gather besulos again, because “ a Mosod farmcht zich nisht’
thanks
it a gut vort...

Moshe said...

The Bio of the Rebbe Rashab in Hayom Yom states that the Rebbe attended an asifa in Katowitz in 1909 and announced that he is leaving Agudas Yisroel.

How is this reconciled with the fact that the Aguda is said to be founded in Katowitz in 1912?