Tuesday, August 12, 2008

החוברת שחוללה סערה בירושלים

It's not Just Lubavitch

Every once in a while there springs up a publication that reminds those chasidim who think that as long as they patronize the Misnagdim, and invite Rav Steinman to their Yeshivos, that the haters will love them, that they're just as "Opgefregt" as the radical Chabadsker and Breslover. It's very simple; most Chasidishe seforim have just as "radical" Torahs and stories than do the Lubavitcher, it's just that they've developed this complex that doesn't allow them to be comfortable with it. So they don't delve into their seforim like they should, and today's Rebbes, even when repeating Torahs from their antecedents only mention either the feel good ones or the ones that mention Inyonei Kedusha etc. But haters like the compiler of this Kovetz, who seemingly has the fear of G-d burning in him, seek out those troublesome quotes, Torahs and stories, and expose Chasidus for what it really is. In his words:

לסיכום ניתן לומר כי החסידות משלבת יראת התורה עם אהבת שמים, מן התורה יראים ואין מתקרבים אליה לא לקרוא וק"ו לא לעשות, ועם השמים מתנהגים כאוהבים וחברים.......

I'm actually happy when I see books like these appearing on the scene. It tells all Chassidim to remember who their adversaries are and what they think of them. Oh, and if you think this is a fringe guy who speaks only for himself remember what you say when some fringe Lubavitcher prints his boych s'voros about the Rebbe etc. He's basing it on what he heard and was taught. So too here, there's no doubt in my mind that this dude took what he heard from his mashgichim and Roshei Yeshiva, and what he saw from his Chasidishe neighbors in Bnei Beraq, and expounded on it. The link has 16 pages that are controlled by the tab at the top of the first page. Kind of like a PDF, just different.

29 comments:

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Why what a shock, Snags actually don’t like chassidus!! Who would have thought! Why is it HT, that it is perfectly acceptable for Chassidim to tout the alleged superiority of Chassidus over what was mainstream yiddishkiet until the Besh’t, but not OK for snags to do the reverse.

Anonymous said...

Basicly you are saying all chasidim are still in cherem? Actually when the Apter (not a Lubavitcher) changed the Derech of Chasidus after the Maaseh of P'shescha, the cherem was not applicable. (V'Hamin Y'ovin)

rosner said...

Some of the quotes are quite scary.
The author claims that he is not talking about the actual rebbes, rather about how chasidim would be comfortable with such leaders IF the quotes are true.What he means is that, it may be that the actual story or quote is wrong but the way it's quoted and accepted is off the wall and seemingly chasidim have no problem with it.

Shimon S said...

"Actually when the Apter (not a Lubavitcher) changed the Derech of Chasidus after the Maaseh of P'shescha, the cherem was not applicable. (V'Hamin Y'ovin) "

Can you please tell us more? What Maaseh of P'shescha? How did he change the derech? How did it effect the cherem? Which cherem?

Anonymous said...

The Cherem is that of the Vilna Gaon against Chasidim.
The Maaseh of Peshischa is well documented in various places; Rabbi Reisman spoke about it several years ago. However, on this site it is too politicaly inappropriate to explain at length.

Anonymous said...

The Cherem is that of the Vilna Gaon against Chasidim.
The Maaseh of Peshischa is well documented in various places; Rabbi Reisman spoke about it several years ago. However, on this site it is too politicaly inappropriate to explain at length.

Shlomo said...

Tzig
You hate the 'haters' so much, why do you pay any attention to them?
I guess in the back of your mind you know they have very good points....and that's what makes you hate them so much.
You Lubabs were warned about the outcome the misguided moshiach campaign and today you yourselves are attacking the meshichts to little to late.Soon they will be totally in charge.
If only people would listen...

Anonymous said...

it's clear that the author is Dati Le'umi.

That explains the totally warped logic.

shimon s said...

"The Cherem is that of the Vilna Gaon against Chasidim."

There were many cheremim and the GR"A signed only some of them. I'm not aware of any single document called "GR"As cherem agaist Chassidim". Its more some kind of a general approach followed by some kehillos and rabbonim in the first two generations of chassidim. Nothing that can be canceled or not applied. Its up to the kehillos at any time.

"The Maaseh of Peshischa is well documented in various places; Rabbi Reisman spoke about it several years ago. However, on this site it is too politicaly inappropriate to explain at length."

Do you mean the Kotzkers Mayse? Othewise Im lost. Can you direct me to R' Reisman shiur?

And what about the Apters reform that you mentioned?

snag said...

Wow !

I just took a quick look so far, but you made my day !

Yasher keyach !

P.S. Someone the other day posted using the name 'snag', it wasn't me.

Anonymous said...

Twistle
I believe that if after 200 years chassidus and chassidic people became a dominant force in Yahadus as in Hungary, Poland ,Galicia and USA.
Including the last 100 years before WW11 at least half of the gedolie haposkim were of the Chasidic fold.
Then whoever gets up today and criticize the pillars of chasidus today is a Apikoras as you make fun of the Reb Chaim Vitals seforim

Topic for Discussion said...

DER TEILUNG:
THE DIVIDE:
I am trying to understand why lubavitch is busy to promote a Divide within the frum community ,and at the same time trying to silence the halachic Divide to the non frum yidden,can any of the readers analyze if there is a link to those two behaviors

Daniel said...

Topic for Discussion said...

" DER TEILUNG:
THE DIVIDE:
I am trying to understand why lubavitch is busy to promote a Divide within the frum community ,and at the same time trying to silence the halachic Divide to the non frum yidden,can any of the readers analyze if there is a link to those two behaviors"

The answer for you is quite obvious. A double-dose of lithium, with some prozac every morning. That's about all that might fix your 'problem'.

Anonymous said...

>Including the last 100 years before WW11 at least half of the gedolie haposkim were of the Chasidic fold.

They taught me the same junk in chasideshe cheder, but then I learned some history.

keyword said...

Daniel: The reader asked for participation in a 'Topic for Discussion' not for a dose of your medication

Michoel said...

"It's not just Lubavitch. It's not just Lubavitch. It's not just Lubavitch. It's not just Lubavitch. It's not just Lubavitch. It's not just Lubavitch."


It most definitely is JUST Lubavitch, for almost all the Litvisher velt. And Chabadsters do everything they can to promote minority voices that try to make it seem otherwise.

Why did you post this? You gain from it, that's why.

Ma'arava said...

Raise your hand if you think Michoel is proud of his quip. The torchbearer of "almost all the Litvisher velt."

David said...

Lubavitch is a group that have lost it.Of course they are still pounding out two-bit-'rabbis' and wannabee shluchim but as long as they continue with their nonsensical 'yechi' or 'igros' or the Rebbe as 'moshiach' they''ll end up were similar groups ended up.
S.Zvi had most rabbonim farkoift in him and had a huge movement, today they are a small non Jewish group in Turkey called Donmeh.I'm not comparing the Rebbe to S.ZVI but comparing the aftermath.The Rebbe meant well but his misguided followers have dragged Chabad into a fools paradise

Anonymous said...

haha im a direct descendant of the vilna gaon and a proud lubavitcher bh ashreinu

Anonymous said...

David
Wanabee shluchim????? how does it work?
two bit rabbi?????????? you mean as malkiel kotler is the rosh of the biggest yeshiva in the world please explain, I am perplexed

Anonymous said...

Michoel
Lubavitch lost there rights to defend themselves???

sziggy said...

Anon 8:20 pm
You are such a 'proud Lubavitcher' that you won't even sign your name.
Wow!

Michoel said...

anonymous of 11:53,
I do not understand your question.

Fotheringay-Phipps said...

I have to thank you for putting this link. Fascinating stuff for a hard-core misnagid like myself, but like most other like-minded misnagdim I can't afford to spend much time on these types of pursuits. So I would never have known about this kuntros if not for your link. As it is, my wife thinks I might lose one leg of my table in Gan Eden due to enjoyment of this kuntrous in Olam Hazeh.

(In a similar vein I always appreciate the kannaim who write angry comments in the margins of *controversial* works in yeshiva libraries and such. Because I want to see the controversial parts of these works but can't be bothered to read through the whole thing to find them. But like this it's a simple matter to just flip through the pages and find the juicy stuff conveniently marked off in the margins.)

That said, the actual (as opposed to entertainment) value of this work is somewhat diminished by the fact that the vast majority of these quotes are from works that I don't recognize. There are any number of wacky chasidisher ma'aseh books out there, but it's not clear to me to what extent these are taken seriously by the more sober chassidim. That's a topic in itself, and worthy of looking into. Perhaps someday.

What's more interesting is the stuff written in classic chassidic works or in works written by rebbes themselves. But these are the minority.

I notice the guy left out some good stuff I recently saw in an article by some professor about "Holy Kugel", e.g. the assertion by some (major) rebbe that there is a special place in Gan Eden for people who eat kugel vs. those who don't. So while the guy obviously did a lot of good research, there's a lot more out there as well.

reality check said...

Oh yes, there is a lot more out there. Not only in chassidic texts and texts about chassidim, but also in Bavli and Yerushalmi, never mind the numerous midrashim. Why doesn't that scholar-author make an anthology from these??? For that matter, there is a lot more out there in the various texts by and about the Vilna Gaon - why does he deny us the pleasure of learning about these?

Basically this "kintress" is a variation on a much earlier one, printed about 150 years ago and called "Megaleh Temirin" which also consists of hundreds of quatations of chassidic texts "exposing" them as works propagating znus and ni'uf that would make Dr. Kinsey and contemporary writers blush outright. And it comes from the same kind of source - mecharfim and megadfim who are "concerned" about mekomos hametunafim yuet with their words and actions turn their homes, yeshivos and botei midrashim into over-filled and clogged toilet-bowls.

Anonymous said...

Relity
Sefosaim Yishoik

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

DER TEILUNG:
THE DIVIDE:
I am trying to understand why lubavitch is busy to promote a Divide within the frum community ,and at the same time trying to silence the halachic Divide to the non frum yidden,can any of the readers analyze if there is a link to those two behaviors

I once heard Rav Dovid Solivatchik make the same point. He said the famouse Bais Halavi about the diffrence between Mussur and Tochach (tochacha is showing that ones own actions prove that the justifications for bad behaviour are not true). He then asked this question. Why is Chabad in love with every frie yid and hates all frum yidden.

reality check said...

"Why is Chabad in love with every frie yid and hates all frum yidden."

Talk about rhetorical questions. First you create a strawman, a fictitious premise, and then you pose a question (or rather "beg the question"). Who has created the divide? Was it chabad-opposition to the misnagdim, or the other way around? And even with the political (vs. religious-ethical) hisnagdus, it is an absolute falsehood to claim that chabad "hates" the others. They do dislike those who voice their hisnagdus in derogatory words with ignorant, phoney and outright false accusations (and of course every sheker needs a grain of truth to survive, thus they do latch unto certain matters that are subject to criticism [yes, they do exist in chabad just as in the other side]- though these keep changing every time for self-justification), and will speak negatively about them, but -- hate?? Outright hate in this context is onesided, and it is not the side of chabad.
If there is antipathy in chabad against the misnagdim it is for the very reason articulated by Yanai malka in Sotah 22b, see there!

mendel said...

Thanks reality-check. I agree 100%. It is a tyical case of kozak hanigsal or blame the victim. when and where did chabad start a campaign against others with personal insults and condemnations? I am sure that among themselves chabad-chasidim made "fun" about different shitos and hashkofos, and may even have said negative things about individual opponents, but in that they were no different than all others doing exactly the same (not only misnagdim making fun of chassidim, but also of other misnagdim with different hashkofes - as re mussar, derech in learning, style of yeshives etc.). Open warfare, dirty fights and filthy language and condemnations (amhoratzes, kefiro, avoido zoro, yayin nesech, boialei nidois, shabsaitzvi-nikes, religion-close-to Judaism, boycotts, tearing and burning of seforim of those they hate etc. etc., never mind the personal invective against gedoile hachassidus etc. etc.) that is an invention of the last so many decades and coming from one side only (and oftentimes inspired directly by their leaders)which indeed was not chabad or other chasidim. They articially rebuilt a divide long gone, and did so with steel and brick as had never been. so lets get ou record straight.