Tuesday, August 12, 2008

It's Like Chinese Food


Reb Sholom Noach Berzovsky of Slonim, Rav EMMS of Vaboylnik, Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapira of Be'er Yaakov)

HERE

A reader commenting via e-mail on Circus Tent - It's Not Just Lubavitch.

"You hit the nail on the head with your post on the kuntres.

I think I can give you a mashal to understand why Litvaks hate davka Chabad but give other chasidim a pass. It's a well-known stereotype that secular Jews love Chinese food. There's even some kind of minhag of going out to Chinese Restaurants on Kratzmich. (I first heard of this from secular friends when I was 20; it was so obvious to them that this is what you do). Where does it come from, this love of Chinese food? The explanation is simple. When the second generation of American Jews dropped the basic standards of kashrus that their parents held -- kosher meat, not basar vechalav -- it wasn't so easy for them to eat treif meat, especially davar acher (pig, ham, bacon.). After all, chazer is chazer. So Chinese food was a way out. Since you couldn't recognize the food -- it didn't have all of the associations that treif American cuisine had. You couldn't see the pork. It was a way of easing the adjustment to non-kosher food.

Levhavdil, but that is what other chasidim are for Litvaks. Subconsciously, because Peylishe, Galitzianer, and Ungarishe are so different, they don't taste the "chazer fleish." Chabad, on the other hand, reminds them of everything. I'm telling you -- if the Rebbe had told his chasidim to wear shtreimlech, beketshes, and (vaise) zocken, the Rosh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak would never have made the stink he made. Of course, there was a lot of history there, and Chabad would have been attacked. But not as much as it was." עכ"ל

I think the reader hit this one on the head. Most Litvak hotheads have as much in common with real Machshovoh as a chipmunk does, but they have a knack of making mountains out of molehills. They can take a Posuk, ask a Kashe, and build Mt. Everest - all one one OysgeKrochene Boych S'voroh, but that'sa not Machshovoh. What that means is they don't understand what Chassidus is about, and have no real "taynes" against its teachings. We can also safely assume that the so-called Kano'us we see from them these last 30+ years is just not the real thing. Once we eliminate that we need to look elsewhere why they so dislike Lubavitch. The Chinese Food analogy is the closest thing to the truth we have now.

101 comments:

bahaltener said...

FYI (anti-military song, in context of the war in Georgia):

http://laplandian.livejournal.com/4031.html

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure what you are going on about

The reason for Chinese on Xmas is simple - the Chinese also don't beleive in Xmas, therefore in previous generations when all the other resteraunts were shut, the chinese ones were left open... so started the great tradition

In terms of what you are writing Re: the Litvaks, it's as inane as your Chinese food analogy. The reason why they have a problem with Chabad, above and beyond all other Chassidim is the following:

As a general rule they find many things that Chassidim do going against Halocho and more importantly against the grain of Yiddishkite. The thing that makes Chabad stand out is the PR machine that it is. All other Chassidishe groups practice their brand of Yiddishkite and keep it to themselves, for themselves. However, Chabad take their brand of Yiddishkite to the masses as the 'Only true form of Authenitc Jewish Observance'

I live a short distance from a Chabad house run specifically for Israeli backpackers - > the Shliach is a huge Meshichist. To see all these Israeli backpackers dancing in the middle of the street singing Yechi, flying the yellow flag etc... has not only upset and saddened the wider jewish community, but also the vast bulk of Chabad chassidim in town.
BTW: The Chabad chssidim thew out several Yechi members for continually embarassing them by standing in the middle of shul daily, singing and dancing and waving their flag (note: the flag wavers were not violent)

Just as the Chabad chassidim are saddened and upset by the actions of this one shliach, and the handful of Flag wavers who they see as 'brainwashing' the Israelis with a very very narrow belief system within Yiddishkite.So too, Litvaks and a large and growing number of Chassidim and Mizrachi and YU groups have had a similar approach to Chabad as a whole, for quite some time.

One of the biggest(in reality there is only a handful of issues) issues is that when Chabad bring people from off the street into their environment, they don't start off with a learning program around halocho or chumash rashi... they start with Tanya, a very narrow form of belief within the Jewish faith. It's all about point of reference. They key goal of a shliach is to entrench a potential B'T into Chabad and as a by-product into Yiddishkite. Classic example is : Mattisyahu, the singer. Now that he is a Karliner or whatever, Chabad no longer mention him, but when he was a Lubavitcher - He was KING MATTISYAHU. All I can say, is B"H he is a Jew and one that is rasing his family in a Torah way

This is the key and only real difference between Chabad and the Litvaks (and primarily most orthodox groups)

Josh said...

I liked the folk ethnography behind the Jews loving chinese food, since there is no other unfamiliar food in America, and everyone has a pintele yid-- how beautiful!
I must take issue with the substance of this analogy, like the substance of your mythical Chinese food, almost unrecognizable. Basically you reduce the differences between Chabad and other Chassidic groups to their garb. Lubavitchers wear hats, which makes them look similar to Litvaks making Litvaks uncomfortable. By the same logic, Borsalino wearing mobsters and fedora sporting 50s businessmen should provoke the unbridled antipathy of the Litvish world. I do not think this is the case.
Secondly, you overstate the differences between haredim of the Lithuanian sect and those of the Hassidic groups. By and large, the Lithuanian Jews were either nonobservant or perished in the war. Many of the post Holocaust Litvaks are descended from Hungarian and other Hassidic stick. Furthermore, many Hassidim are descended from Oberlanders and other nonHassidic groups. The funny clothing cuts both ways; just as pictures of Slobodka show us clean shaved debonair European petit bourgoise, so do pictures of the Kibbutz Haperushim and their descendants show us all the funny hats one could ever want. People are not idiots and they realize that the garb is something very recent and very external. In Lubavitch this is especially true as the fedora wearing is an even more recent phenomenon.
Truthfully, you will not find many yeshivish folks who resent Hassidic halachic innovations like Nusah psuedo Sefard (which many yeshivot use), Gebrokts (which many yeshivish people abstain from), Hassidic shehita (for which there are no alternatives in the US), Glatt Kosher (something Rabbi Aharon Kotler wasnt particularly fond of), etc. Part of the reason for this is the rise of the Heimishe world, meaning that there are droves of psuedo Hassidic people who cross boundaries between Hassidic and Yeshivish very easily and are naturally a part of both worlds. The opposition to Hassiduth has died down, and very few people make any effort to extirpate their Reformist changes to Jewish life.
Chabad is a slight exception to this which has its own reasons. I hope I have demonstrated that these have little to do with Chinese food.

Anonymous said...

Dear Rabbi Tzig,

Thank you for this wonderful forum giving us all an oportunity to realise how shallow the Lubavitch mind is. I always advise my freinds who are in doubt about what happens to a yiddishe mind when there is no torah in it, to visit your blog. With you in the forefront setting this example maybe your fellow Lubavitch chasidim will all start a blog, thus giving those of us in Klal Yisroel who doubt how far Lubavitch chasidus has strayed from main stream yideshkite a glimpse of the truth.

I for one will not be haughty and call myself what you call a "hater". To be a "hater" one must be on a very high level of ahavas Hashem, as David Hamelech says in Tehillim "Ohavei Hashem sinu Rah". This is a life times work of torah study and avodas Hashem. Like the leader of klal Yisroel Maran Harav Schach Zt"l mivabolnik Lita.

Thank you for your time,

An aspiring "hater" From Lakewood N.J.

shimon s said...

And why is Sholom Noach Berezovsky of Slonim and not of Baranovitsh?

And Moshe Shmuel Shapiro of Be'er Yaakov and not of Minsk?

And RMMS of Lubavitch and not of Nikolayev?

Tell why?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Dear Aspiring

you're very welcome. You see, my friend, a pig in slop thinks he's in heaven, rolling around in that "sweet stuff." If only he knew. If only he knew what that Posuk Tehillim he quotes meant, then his ignorance wouldn't be that blissful.

Now let me get back to my Gemoroh, I need to brush up on the Machlokes Rabbon Gamliel and Rebbi, whether or not we say Edus SheBotloh Miktzosoh Botloh Kuloh, and also I'm not Klohr on how the Rabbonon can be Mafkia a Kiddushin DeOraysoh and turn a Be'ilah into Z'nus retroactively.

Maybe you can help me, Mr. Yiddishe Kup full of Torah?!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Behaltener

That was really beautiful. Thanks!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Shimon

You're right, but then nobody would know whom we're talking about!

Anonymous said...

anon
I am not getting it, does the Chabad House promote the yellow flags? or not?you start 1 way and you end a different way.
When Neugroschol from Arachim etc.. give his classes in Tel Aviv does he arrive with a big shulchan aruch hilchas muktza? or he starts with his philosophy?thats BTW based on nonsense versus Tanya
thats Divrei Elokim Chaim that
just the words can heal you when you listen.

I dont realy need your answer since I know where you are coming from.

shimon s said...

I dont get the joke... But at least today I learned where was he born. Not that it is so important. Or is it?

Anonymous said...

In terms of the yellow flag:
Where I live, Chabad is a large part of the wider community. There are those who believe in the flag and those that don't.
Currently,those who don't wave the yellow flag are EMBARASSED of their brothers activities. They find these 'antics' to be embarassing and have resorted to kicking them out of the shul etc...

I was using this to explain to Tzig, the REAL attitude many have to Chabad stems from the same mindframe.

There is a strong belief that many of the 'antics' that Chabad do are an embarassment to the wider Jewish community, including Litvaks, Chassidim, YU, Mizrachi etc...

It has nothing to do with hats but rather what is being done in the name of 'Yiddishkite'

I would suggest that Tzig thinks hard and long before throwing stones at 'livaks' as I think he would fit into the category of those Chabad chevra who are embarassed by the antics of his Yellow Flag waving brothers...

Anonymous said...

Tzig has stated a million times that he has nothing in common with the flag people as satmars have no affiliation with the neturie karta so what is all this flag issue.

Michoel said...

Tzig,
I hang out here really trying to understand (and also to defend some gedolei Torah from vicious attacks). It is really a good blog in a lot of ways. Since you don't know me personally, I would like you to know that I really want that there should not be machlokes. My next door neighbor (in a townhouse) is a Chabad rabbi. We get along well and our kids play constantly.

So please listen to me as a fellow Jew, who like you, wants the emes. It has nothing to do with Chinese food. Please be honest with yourself. Virtually all Litvaks, if their child became a Squarer, or a Bobover, would be fine with it. If they became a Chabadster, they would be crushed, as if the child had, lo aleynu...

Please be honest. The issue is Rebbe worship. Nothing to do with Chinese food. Not lo mein and not anything else. Do you understand?

Fred said...

"The thing that makes Chabad stand out is the PR machine that it is."

see Rappoport's book on Moshiach issue. He points out that Zidichov etc have all made more quiet controversal predictions/shittas etc as well....

Anonymous said...

from a shlucha, daughter of shluchim, cousin, niece, sister, you get the picture: our goal has always been to bring yidden closer to Hashem, not to make them into Lubavitchers. I am part of a very large family ka'h, most are shluchim, all subscribe to this notion, all except one is a meshichist and he is not a shliach. We respect the nuscho'os and minhagim of the different edos in the community, as the Rebbe himself did. We do not impose Chabad minhagim, we do not push people to become Lubavitchers. Do we teach Tanya and the rest of Chassidus yes of course, but so do we teach gemarrah, shulchan aruch, chumash etc. Don't lump us all in one big pot. There are a few extremists amongst us Lubavitchers but they are just that, extremists, and getting fewer as time passes on and the less extremists amongst them come to their senses.

Michoel said...

RE understanding machshava like a chipmunk, don't understand chasidus etc etc...
For a period, I davened in a Chabad house on Shabbos. The Rav there had a very impressive beard. Very impressive. He used to lecture me about how nistar was much harder than nigleh and how I (and other Litvaks) were missing the ikkar. But he used to stress that nistar was a much harder limud. This Jew (with the very impressive beard) said a gemarra shiur. He used an Artscroll to say the shiur. Even with the Artscroll, the shiur was extremely underwhelming. I never worked up the nerve to ask him how he could be so sure that he understood Toras Nistar (a euphemism for Chabad Chasidus) since nistar was so much harder than nigleh and he obviously had no clue in nigleh.

Michoel said...

Hello Shlucha of 9:07,
I know you really exist and have met people like you. Chazak v'amatz. We are caught in a terrible situation where most non-Chabadsters have met way too many Chabadsters that are NOT like you. Our perceptions are not based on sinas chinam, our minds being poisoned by our roshei yeshiva, insecurity, etc etc. Our perceptions are based on many real experiences with real Lubavitchers. Maybe you can suggest a way out of the current matzav.

Michoel said...

In the interest of fairness, I just want to say that I have met Lubavitchers that could really learn, and knew halacha, were talmidei chachamim, accordin to the havana p'shutah of that term.

Josh said...

Tzig--Your commenters need to have the same חבד discussion every day. If they went to sleep without yelling about Mesichists and Antis they would toss and turn until they got up and wrote some irrelevant garbage using the phrase "boich sevaros" on this blog. Speaking of boich sevaros, the chinese food one is just that, and the ease with which everyone seems to accept it belies their comfort with thinking from the gut. I would only add that after some boich sevaros, you can sleep soundly on a full stomach.

Anonymous said...

According to ur narishe logic karliners should be in the same boat as chabad and if anything the oppisite is the truth litvaks have an affinity for karlin that they dont have for all other chassidim and its davka cuz they look the same .

schneur said...

Firstly the affinity of Jews to Chinese food should be left to the many sociologists of American Jewry.It seems that the orthodox community also liked Chinese food (Shmelka Bernsteins on East Broadway and Moshe Peiking were among the best known kosher eateries of their times)In addition many Anash seem to love Chinese , I hope not for the reasons you state.
Friends, Lets not forget that in good times 95% of all Lubavitchers if not more were Litvishe Yidden and the differences between them were theological not sociology. The Litvishe Yidden who were misnagdim in Vitebsk and Homel etc dressed like Chabad people spoke the same Yiddish and even enjoyed the same minhogim to a great extent (of course there were some differences) In those days Chabad also placed a premium on Talmud Tore. Until 1939 many Chabad families sent their sons to non Chabad yeshivas witness Jimmy's tour of such yeshivas in the 1930's. Also Chabad believed in Oses umefsim beadmas Bnai Cham , Boy hw that changed !!! But as in all "families" there were differences and here it was in Hashkofa, Nusach etc.Family quarrels tend to get hd yet soon after all returns to normal which is the way it was in Lita and White Russia,
But until the transfer of Chabad to the US , Chabad people and Misnagdim married each other on a regualar basis.There were few pure Chabad families, even the Schnersohns married members of the Chasam Sofers family etc.
In the last 50 years Chabd adopted some new policies that turned them off not only to Litvishe Yidden and Bnai yeshiva of all stripes but also to 99% of the Chassiidc world who think they are crazy at worst and not heimishe at best. In addition many Zikne anash were hardly enthusiastic about the "New Lubavitch" either and some of the letters in the igros reflect that the feelings were mutual.
These traits are.
1. Hanasi hu hakol. the supremacy of Chabad leadership over all Jews. A the total lack of cooperation of Chabad with any other Charedim either in israel or the uSA.
2. Outreach to the extent that the critical mass of the regualr chabad community was dilluted.The people no longer sspoke Yiddish , dressed fremd, and acted very American as one observer remarked i a recent issue of the ALGEMEINER ZRNAL Chabad has become the right wing of modern orthodoxy.
3. vildkeit. cheap PR tricks, attempts at taking over non Chabad organizations and institutions etc.
4. Different minhogim for every thing . Chabad tallis, chabad mikve, chabd Tillim etc
5 Personality cult And unprecedented use of the cheapest PR stunts to "spread" iddishkeit In other words taking Lubavitch out of Nevel and Klimovitch and into Madison Avenue and Paris.
In later years we can ad Messianism and post Messianic beliefs in Chabad.
Instead of photos of rabbi Shach, why not devote the column as to why many Zikne Anash had serious issues with the 7th generation, for example the MDA of Bnai Brak . What were his reservations about Chabad ?
Before you discuss the reasons for the dislike of Chabad by the so called yeshiva world, why not discus the reasons Chabad is disliked by other chassidim , why for example most Galicianer chassdim will not eat Chabad shechita.
After you settle that issue try discussing why most observant MO Jews have little like for Chaabd and 1 Rosh here at RIETs urged his students not to marry any Chabad people.
And now you will not need to discuss why the so calle yeshiva community dislike Chabad and you can sit down and enjoy your Chinese dinner.

shimon s said...

Does anyone know where can i get rapoports book? it seems it doesnt even have a isbn...

Chaim Rapoport: The Messiah Problem. Berger, the Angel and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination, Ilford 2002

Hirshel Tzig said...

Jay

this is a family blog.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Schneur

Reb Yankel Landau was no chossid of the Rayatz either, he just stayed with the Rashab the rest of his life. Still, his kids all learned in Chabad.

The rest of what you write is a lot of after the fact justification. Plain and simple.

gideon said...

Tziggy
Rav Yakov Landau sent his kids to Ponovizh! Later they left on their own volition and he was not very happy.
You know very well that Shneour is someone who knows old style Lubavitch from up close and you are a recent convert, so some respect please.
Also, your answer to Aspiring at 11:35 made me feel sick.You mock someone learning gemoro???
You are so lost, looking to build up your new Lubab credentials, that you say things that no real Lubavitcher, the biggest chused would say.Yeah, the 'tzig' is a 'bigger' chused than they are.
Wonder what R'Lesches thinks about your blog..

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm sorry that you have the cerebral capacity of a flea, really I am. It makes all of us Yidden look bad.

Where O' where did I mock the learning of Gemoro??????

GIDEON said...

''Where O' where did I mock the learning of Gemoro??????''

What is this?? ''Now let me get back to my Gemoroh, I need to brush up on the Machlokes Rabbon Gamliel and Rebbi, whether or not we say Edus SheBotloh Miktzosoh Botloh Kuloh, and also I'm not Klohr on how the Rabbonon can be Mafkia a Kiddushin DeOraysoh and turn a Be'ilah into Z'nus retroactively.''

Wonder what R'Lesches would say??

Anonymous said...

The pic you posted of him as a bochur without a beard, you sure it's him? R'Gedalya did not wear eye glasses and this kid seems to be wearing eye glasses

Hirshel Tzig said...

GIDEON (why now all CAPS?)

You see, my friend, you accuse others of what you would do. I was being perfectly serious, and was countering the commenter who was accusing of being empty of Torah. It was not a mock.

Thanks for the pic. The comment was rejected. You understand.

Hirshel Tzig said...

some pics show him with glasses.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel, you obviously feel that you have to use adjectives and name calling like:
"you have the cerebral capacity of a flea"
"You see, my friend, a pig in slop thinks he's in heaven...If only he knew what that Posuk Tehillim he quotes meant, then his ignorance wouldn't be that blissful."
"Most Litvak hotheads have as much in common with real Machshovoh as a chipmunk does..."

I would like to point out to your dear readers, that Tzig is not alone in this approach to debate. He is not alone at all. He is in the company of his fellow Lubavitch chasidim, and many other cults out there. I say cults not as a way to simply degrade them, but to traslate what they really are. Someone who cant have a logical debate, and needs to resort to senseless name calling when confronted with logic, is brainwashed. Logic wont go in. (Thats why Hirshel, you have no idea what I'm talking about). That is a cult.

On another point. I have an uncle that r"l went off to chabad. My grandfather ZT"L never got over it. He always said "there are plenty of beutiful chasidus out there. Why go to Lubavitch?". My point is: most misnagdim could live with regular chasidim. But chabad has turned into a different religion altogether. When I was in high school there was a joke: what is the closest religion to judaisim after Christianity? Lubavitch.
Think about how serious this joke is.

Hirshel Tzig said...

You made it to High School?

was your father on the board?

The point about your zeide proves my point. Other Chasidic groups don't bother Misngadim. Think about it.

Gideon. said...

Anon 2:59
Please choose a name to make it easier for everybody.
Tzig,
If you have any honesty left in you you will admit that Lubavitch has produced some very wacky results.
I'm going to list a couple and like to hear what you say.
*The Rebbe as alive 14 years after he was niftar.Do you know of any other chasidic group that has seen this occurence??(please spare me apologetics such as 'it's not all of Lubavitch'. We know that.The problem is that the Meshichists are a significant portion of Lubavitch.I use the word 'significant' so we don't get bogged down into the precise percentage).
*The occurence of 'Boreinuniks'
(again spare me the argument about it being a tiny percentage.I know.Their mere existence, however is the 'scary' part.This is unheard of anywhere.
*The Rebbe as 'Nosi Hador' (this is universally accepted, though the Rebbe is no longer here.This 'self appointment' would be strange and smack of a self centerdness while the Rebbe was here,but after he was niftar???)

*The whole Moshiach campaign, which while it happened in the past, has never ever ended well for yidden!

Is it so surprising that non Lubavitchers and Misnagdim should be a bit more suspicious of such a group?Can you honestly accuse everybody who is worried by this list of things as being a 'hater'? Can you do that with your integrity intact?

Fred said...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000GHDPCC/ref=dp_olp_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1218742639&sr=1-1

Taka !

Tzig already said there are all types.... some chabad rabbis decide to live on Artscroll and for that matter learn their nistar in English as well....and if they read hebrew fine but never bothered with Aramaic.

Selective memory

reb Tzadok who is quoted aby all Litvaks makes Chabad look mainstream in many inyanim.
Same for Ramchal...
I just heard a shiur from HARAV Belsky on blinders... for a horse.

Anonymous said...

gideon 3:27:00 PM, you are saying aizen!
I would love to hear someone refute those points logicly.

gideon only touches the tip of the iceberg. but its a start.

arbiter said...

I wonder how Misnagdim would treat Na Nachs if they could only take them seriously.

shimon s said...

Fred,

excelent job with finding things. But the price is not even funny anymore. Not that its your fault...

Izhbitza, Radzin and R"Tz MiLublin - all Kotzkers - are quoted in yeshivish circles but very selectivly. If those chaddidus would be around, they would be under fire.

Tzig,

when we are at it, can you tell me how do you personaly understand the term "dor"? 40 years? less? more? why? is this still dor shevii?

gideon said...

Fred.
Cut out the red herrings.Was anyone discussing R'Tsodok?
I raised some problems with Lubavitch which I truly believe would bother your mainstream Orthodox Jew.Can you address that,please??.

I cannot stand the tactic of diverting debates or the thinking that if such and such a group does wierd things, let's say the Na Nachs for example it somehow answers a question that was respectfully asked ABOUT Lubavitch.

So, guys, can we try and have a relevant discussion here, please?

gideon said...

Looks like nobody wants or can handle relevant discussions.
Oh well...

Anonymous said...

Gideon
You are so proud with your arguments as if you invented the wheel.
Lubavitch is extreme and they have nothing to apologize for Nobody.
The Rebbe spoke about issues and there are always people that took it much further.
The Satmar Rov was anti Zionist and there is a crowd that goes to Iran to help deny the holocaust and are happy when a bus explodes in Jerusalem with Yidshe Kinderlech, because there is a certain Charon Af that gets reduced.

sdr said...

Gideon,
The existence of the the boreinu and extreme meshichist crowd is a direct result of the Chabad open house shita. I'm not going to be masbir this right now, since it is a long parsha, and requires a good understanding of shitas hachassidus and Tanya, not the PR version.
Leguf ha'inyan, if only the hatred and disdain for Chabad started in 1994 or even 1951. Sorry Schneur for blowing up your myth of amolige chassidim and litvaks. The modern day hatred (disregarding the Alter Rebbe and the Gra) started with the Rebbe Rashab leaving aguda, was intensified during communism and WWII with the vaad hatzolah politics and has continued unabated since. The current day excuse - meshichism, nasi hu hakol, pr machine, ameratzus - is perfectly interchangeable with Kshoit Atzmicho, tefillin on a guf tomei, neshek brochah livotolah, lealter litshuvah, refusing to endorse agudah, etc.

Anonymous said...

The Dor obviously goes accoeding to the Nasi Hador.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Gideon

it's very simple


Of course you can find all kinds of things you're not comfortable with, but the REASON the spotlight is on Chabad is because of the prejudice. No ifs, ands or buts about it. The Questions you have can be answered very easily, but I doubt you'll wanna hear them.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
The reason of the galiczianer chosid that doesnt want to buy Lubavicher Shechita is for the same reason that nobody in Isreal would eat Belz or Shearith. If something gets political then its a hot potato then people dont touch it.Take for instance Kliens Ice cream it has a good hashgacha from Dayan Ekstien who his considered a big maven and yerie shomaim in the field of kashrus but Kliens them selves belzer chasidim took the illfanmed CRC hashgacha that was on the forefront to ostracize there Rebbe in the 80s and were behind the rumor mongering on their father Reb Efraim of the old belzer school in the 50,s by the old belzer machloke. Because they needed the sales of certain people that will not touch a hasgacha of a belzer dayan even their mind tells them different but by ice cream and meat you follow your heart.
There is also another reason for them not to eat Lubavicher Shechita since the wife of the Shochet doesnt shave on Zero.In their cultue it is 1 of the 3 aveiros for Kidush Hashem

Anonymous said...

Tzig said..."Of course you can find all kinds of things you're not comfortable with, but the REASON the spotlight is on Chabad is because of the prejudice. No ifs, ands or buts about it."
C'mon Tzig, is that the gemorah kup talking, or unable to see logic kup talking?
Thats like saying: of course the conservatives can find all kinds of things they are not comfortable with in the liberals, but the REASON there is a spotlite on them is because of prejudice.

And by the way , if your answers to gideon's very good questions, is with this type of twisted, upside down logic, then your right I don't either wanna hear them.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm sorry you don't wanna hear it, but that's the way it is.

shimon s said...

Tzig, so let me get it streight. All the time you complain that other chassidim dont really learn chassidus and make fun of the satmar (derech Besh"t was forgotten).

And now you ask why do litvaks think Chabad is different?

Well, so you tell me: IS or ISNT chabad different then other chassidim (whom you call ChaGaS)?

snag said...

Josh : "the rise of the Heimishe world, meaning that there are droves of psuedo Hassidic people who cross boundaries between Hassidic and Yeshivish very easily and are naturally a part of both worlds."

Good one there. There is a fluidity that some may not realize, e.g. there are many that have one foot in both the Misnagdic and Hassidic camps.

"Virtually all Litvaks, if their child became a Squarer, or a Bobover, would be fine with it. If they became a Chabadster, they would be crushed, as if the child had, lo aleynu..."

Real Misnagdim would not be fine with it if their children (chas vesholem) joined Square or Bobov.

"litvaks have an affinity for karlin"

Ver zogt ? They like the screaming at davening? Matisyahu ?

'reb Tzadok who is quoted by all Litvaks makes Chabad look mainstream in many inyanim.'

Reb Zadok is not quoted by all Litvaks. They didn't learn Reb Zadok in the alte Mir and in real Litvish places. In recent years it has infiltrated some Litvish places unfortunately, due to influence of people like Rav Hutner of YRCB, Rav Gedalia Schorr of YTV, and others, but the real die-hard Litvaks stick to the old Tayreh and are not deep into Reb Zadok.

"Izhbitza, Radzin and R"Tz MiLublin - all Kotzkers - are quoted in yeshivish circles but very selectivly. If those chaddidus would be around, they would be under fire."

Reb Zadok was not a Kotzker. He came from a Misnagdishe background and then went off the derech and became a Chassid and ultimately a Chassidishe Rebbe.

Fred said...

"Izhbitza, Radzin and R"Tz MiLublin - all Kotzkers - are quoted in yeshivish circles but very selectivly. If those chaddidus would be around, they would be under fire."

But thats the point...they are not around. Why? because succeeding Rebbes were diluted versions of their predecessors whereas in chabad, this was not true?
And there are only a few people some of them even Chabad or also academics who study their chassidus?

But in chabad, the Rebbes lead the way and even though most chabadnikls did not learn chassidus seriously morso after 3 T.. they had a Rebbe but now is anderish.

shimon s said...

snag

Re: R"Tz MiLublin: So you can taste Izhbitza all over his seforim but he was not a Kotzker ?!?

fred

If so, where is the place for the childish analogy with chinese food?

snag said...

Shimon S. - welcome to the blog, your name is not familiar to me, so I am guessing that you may be new here.

"R"Tz MiLublin: So you can taste Izhbitza all over his seforim but he was not a Kotzker ?!?"

What I meant was that according to my recollection he was not 'officially' a Kotzker. If you are you saying that he was influenced by Kotzk, okay, that's one thing, but still, did he 'hang out' in Kotzk or just maybe pick up some of their ideas more indirectly ?

Have you seen Dr. Alan Brill's book on Reb Zadok ?

Michoel said...

Snag said regarding my comment: "Real Misnagdim would not be fine with it if their children (chas vesholem) joined Square or Bobov."

Correct. And as I said "virtually all" because the percentage of "real misnagdim" relative to all Litvaks is maybe %1.

snag said...

"Michoel said...
Snag said regarding my comment: "Real Misnagdim would not be fine with it if their children (chas vesholem) joined Square or Bobov."

Correct. And as I said "virtually all" because the percentage of "real misnagdim" relative to all Litvaks is maybe %1."

Michoel, you are right that, lo oleinu, many Litvaks have become weak in their hisnagdus and lost their way. They have gone off the Litvishe derech in this inyan basically, Hashem yirachem.

However, to say that only 1% would be upset if their children (ר"ל) joined Square or Bobov is not accurate. The matzav is not that bad. Also, you have to be michaleik between them openly complaining and wailing or sitting shiva, and just quietly bemoaning their fate. Just because you don't hear them openly complaining, doesn't mean that עס טוט זייער הארץ ניט וויי.

Maybe הקבּ"ה protect all Litvishe parents from such tragedies, ה' ירחם

Michoel said...

Snag,
It really isn't like that. The chassidim are now just Litvaks with long peyos that daven after the z'man and go to tishen. And there are probably not many Litvaks around that understand enough Kabbala to be meaningfully cholek on chassidim, in the way of the Gra.

snag said...

"Michoel said...
Snag,
It really isn't like that. The chassidim are now just Litvaks with long peyos that daven after the z'man and go to tishen."

Oy vey. Those are the only differences you see ??

"And there are probably not many Litvaks around that understand enough Kabbala to be meaningfully cholek on chassidim, in the way of the Gra."

1) There are many reasons for hisnagdus.

2) One doesn't have to be a mekubal to be a misnaged.

3) Hisnagdus was and is much more than רבּינו הגר"א זצוקללה"ה, זי"ע. Not a one man show at all. Many gedolim signed on, figuratively and literally. Zicher, the Gaon was a powerful force therein, but he was not the totality of it.

Fred said...

Was not my mashal... but fine chinese food...

The Litvaks are content that the other chassidim are chinese food...not overtly against what they are used to but some hidden novelty where they pick one from column A, one from column B (i.e. the old chinese menu style).... a Reb Tzadok for this gemara to taste geshmack but lets ignore the rest of what he or the Ishbitzer said... but Chabad stands aside in their eyes as "Davar Acher".

So Chabad then is a bunch of pigs. But The vort of course is Chazir... Chozer l'teshuvah with all its complex myriad of perushim and latent meanings... ;)

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Snag,

I have to endorse what you wrote. Most Litvaks would be upset if Chas Vshalom their kids joined any chassidus. They would freak out if they joined Chabad. That is for sure by the large majority of Litvaks. I think this business with Rav Tazdok etc is exaggerated... I am a Snag from Snagville, and I never heard and Torah from any of these people from ANY Litvak. I do think that there is a lot more truth to what Schneur said than most people think. I come from an old Litvisher family, and especially in White Russia etc there was a great deal of social and cultural connection between the Litvakss and Chabad. Because culturally they were the same.

Anonymous said...

Snag,

B'H' you post, so i don't have to answer these fools. I endorse everything you say so far 1000%!!

Anonymous said...

Snag, a real Litvak like the Seridei Aish writes in a Haskama to She’eris Menachem (RSY Rubinstein):

"ואמנם אני הקטן, מנעורי גדלתי בין אנשי ליטא, וזכיתי לשמש את גדולי גאונינו...והכל מודים, כי מה שעשו גאוני ליטא להרבצת התורה ולהגדלת אהבתה, עשו גדולי החסידות לחיזוק האמונה ולהעלאת הרוח בישראל...ההתנגדות לחסידות כבר עברה ובטלה מן העולם. הכל יודעים שהחסידות משמשת תריס בפני התרבות הנכרית החותרת חתירות תחת יסודות היהדות, והבעש"ט הק' נבג"מ הוא שיצר את תיבת ההצלה. והדברים עתיקים". ע"כ, עיי"ש.

A real Litvak like R. Yehoshua Leib Diskin said (R. Moshe Sternbuch’s notes to Maase Rav Hachadash 17) that in these time our focus must be to wage war against the outside forces that threaten to destroy Yiddishkait, and therefore anyone who finds time to wage war against the Chassididm should himself be suspected of the above. As to the GRA's war, we cannot understand or comprehend what that was about, and the parsha remains satum ve'chatum.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous

then again, a "real" Misnaged might say that Rav Weinberg left the Misnagdishe Velt when he lived in seclusion in Switzerland and didn't join the post war Torah World....

snag said...

In response to anonymous 2:47PM -

HT - yasher keyach.

HT is right, R. Weinberg was a great man, but he was not mainstream Yeshiva world, let's be honest about it. He does not speak for Lita, not in this and not for other things, rather just for himself.

It's like if I would say to you, hey, the Divrei Yoel said that the derech haBesht was forgotten, and he was from the great gedolei HaChassidus, so you should stop calling yourself a Chassid and throw in the towel.

Re R. Yehoshua Leib - that was written in a different time, maybe it was correct then to a degree, a hora'as sha'ah, but not for everyone at all times. Additionally, just as I said re R. Weinberg, R. Yehoshua Leib was not the Litvishe (lihavdil) 'Pope', just one bright shining star in the galaxy of gedaylei Lita.

Ein beis din yochol livateil divrei beis din chaveirey ad sheyihyeh godol mimenu....Gedaylim like R. Weinberg and R. Diskin cannot mach avek the GRA, Chasam Sofer, Noda biyehuda and all the other greats who opposed the Chassidic movement. Additionally, great contemporary Misnagdishe gedaylim of today don't hold like that. They have supported making known (at least among us) the Misnagdic hashkofo, so we should know our shitos and not be susceptible to Chassidishe propaganda and missionizing.

Good try, your propaganda to try to convince snags to drop their hisnagdus is clever, but we are not buying it. We are staying נאמן to our heilige mesayreh, and if you don't like it, that's your problem.

snag said...

Twistleton and anonymous 1:03PM - א הארציגען יישר כח אייך for your support and nice words.

Schneur is a tayere Yid, a vestige of that bygone time when there was a sort of detente between Lubavitchers and Snags in the White Russia area. Too bad there are not more like him, but who knows, maybe someday that type of thinking will come back into style.

I think that Chassidim respect real snags who maintain their Hisnagdus (albeit begrudgingly perhaps) more than those 'Litvaks' who turn their backs on their own mesayreh, chas vesholem. Who likes a phony, when you can get the real thing?

Fellow snags, be proud of what you are, don't be ashamed.

That goes for real snags and Litvaks, but also for כל הנלוים עליהם לדורות.

Anonymous said...

As a chassidishe talmid of maran R Shach i can be meid aidis that r shach had nothing but love and good things to say abt chassidim just look on the hesped he gave on the satmer rav.

Anonymous said...

I am the person who sent the comment to Hershel Tzig.

A short aside, before I respond to the substantive part of the comments above: The point about Chinese on Nittel Nacht was just to show how Chinese food is so ingrained in American secular Jewish cultural, to the point of becoming a ritual. Yes, technically the reason why Jews go to Chinese on Nittel nacht is because all the other restaurants are closed.

As for the analogy.

My claim was not as shallow as: well, Lubavitchers wear short coats, etc. The point was that, for the most part, Chabad, in all of its manifestations (Lubatvitch, Kapust, Babroisk, etc.), was THE enemy of the misnagdim. Yes, there was Koidanov, Slonim, Karlin, and a host of other chasidusen within the radar screen of talmidei beis harav. However, you cannot compare the other chasidusen to chabad, in terms of power, scope, and influence. Remember: Chabad controlled the entire system of Jewish education in pre-war Latvia. Nearly every melamed and shochet in der alter heim was associated with Chabad.

Another clarification: I was referring to the attitude of the Rosh Yeshivos, both in Eretz Yisroel and America -- not to the Hungarians that eventually made up rov minyan and rov binyan of the yeshivos. Recall that the Roshei Yeshivos and mashgichim are the ones who set the trends, who were koveia the hashkafos of their talmidim.

Required reading, for background on the Chabad-Litvak divide, is "The Making of a Gadol." It becomes clear that the hatred of Chabad long, long predated the Itztiker Rebbe. Note: I am not saying that the book is completely reliable. But on this issue, Kaminetcki is meisiach lefi sumo.

Anonymous said...

anon.
your points are well taken Schneur will do everything to create some utopia that everything was till the chabad taleisim (for some reason he is obssesed with that subject)
R Aron Kotler proclaimed the FR mamar of Bikur Chicago as Kefira before the taleisim.
R Aron Kotler stopped funds going for Temimim in Shanghai since there blood is not as red as Bnei Torah

Anonymous said...

Chasam Sofer.... who opposed the Chassidic movement.

Sheer nonsense from one who obviously knows nothing of the Chasam Sofer.

Anonymous said...

The Chasam Sofer opposed the movementas as he writes in the teshuvoth(we can say the same probably on the Nodah Beyehude) but not its people or ideology

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

No less a person than the Divre Chaim, in discussing the reason for the Chasam Sofers opposition to Nusach Sefared writes it was an opportunity for the Chasam Sofer to vent his HISNAGDUS. My wife’s family is from the close talmidim of the Chasam Sofer. Famous talmidim, they wrote many of the seforim from the Chasam Sofer. Virulent misnagdim each and every one, in spite of being Hungarians. The founder of the clan left in his will that his children should stay away from Chassidim. His son, Rav Chaim Sofer left similar instructions (although he was very close to the Divrey Chaim).

It is my impression, that most Gedolim agree with the Mahril Diskin, not to focus on fighting Chassidim. Which is why people don’t realize the extent of hisnagdus amongst Litvisher Gedolim. Because they don’t focuse on it. But their talmidim know. BTW, the Maharil Diskin himself was a virulent misnagid, as is well know in Brisk. And anyone who thinks the Chafets Chaim loved chassidus (not Chassidim, I am sure he loved every Jew) should hear some of the stories his grandchildren say over that occurred with their father. To the extent that 90% of current chassidus is just a strimel, tish and kugle, there is even less reason to fight it. Rav Sach is a perfect example. He DID not focus on fighting Chassidim, and was close to chassidisher talmidim. But he thought (as I know from first hand accounts) that Tish was a joke etc.

What I like the most about Snag is that unlike many of the newcomer Litvaks, he is a Litvak, and not just a Chossid of the GRA, exchanging one Rebbe for another.

Gershon said...

''Remember: Chabad controlled the entire system of Jewish education in pre-war Latvia. ''

Tell us more please.

Re:Kaminetzky.I don't think that he 'hated' Chabad.R'Yaakov actually had a relationship with the Rebbe.But yes he was a 'misnaged'

One of the problems with this whole Misnagdim/Lubavitch divide is that the writer and Chabad put the onus on the Misnagdim.I talk only from my experience now:I went to a Lubavitch day school till 8 th grade and than went the regulat yeshiva style system including Lakewood what I can say is that Lubavitch is much more focused on this 'hate' In my years in Lakewood Lubavitch was not a big point of discussion, they were not the brunt of any attacks ,R'Yoel would come to farbreng in town from time to time by a Lubavitcher named Kaplan IIRC.My experience, albeit as a non-Lubavitcher and a kid in Lubavitch was that in their minds there was a 'war' with the misnagdim and that Lubavitch must defend themselves.
B'kitser after all this rambling post, while it 'takes two for tango' I think Lubavitch are the ones obsessed with this machloikes, will not let it go and see a 'hater' behind every bush.Chill out a bit, try and reign in the crazies, stop playing the victims and you may see a different world.

Yisroel said...

Schneour
Please can you help shut the mouths of these ignoramuses!
I need a longer list of intermarriages between well known Misnagdim and Lubavitchers to disprove these recent Chabadsker converts who know nothing more than a knew and very partisan (and quite full of rage)Lubavitch.
I know you are right because my own family is a product of a Lubavitch and Misnagdic marriage.

A couple of names I know about:
Rav Henkin, son in law of R'Yehuda Leib Kreindel Chabad chosid and Rov of Kritshov near Klimovitch (where I think R'Moshe Soloveichik was rov?
R'Chaim Steins shlit'a' shver R'Zaks who's wife was Lubavitch
Rav Kook, who learned in Volozhin and who's mother was Lubavitch.
(Btw, The Lubavitcher rov took R'Henkin as an eidim despite being a talmid of R'isser Zalman in Slutzk a bastion of the misnagdim)
The Kaminetzky family.
There are many more.
Many boys in Litvishe yeshivos were of Chabad backrounds.R'shmuel Levitin sons studied in Telz!
Even Slabodka had boys from Lubavitcher backrounds, the more famous ones being Rabbi Ruderman,R'Meir Chodosh.
The machloikes beween Lubavitch and the misnagdim had settled down to minor differences in minhogim.It restarted one a backburner with dor hashishi(I don't think that comments such as, and I paraphrase:HE(the misnaged) fills his stomach with a couple of blatt gemorah, and than his gayvah stench is felt for four hundred parsoh, were very helpful)and intensified with Dor Hashvi'i

kan haben shoeyl said...

Re the Satmarer Rebbe saying that nishtakcho toras Habaal Shem Tov.

Does anyone know exactly when he said this and in what context?

Better yet, can anyone provide a written quote?

And in which farbrengen did the LR mention it?

Anonymous said...

Gershon
Reb yoels coming to lakewood was a big fight in lakewwood they expelled the 2 guys that organized it and they stopped their wages (of 20 bucks a month)kolel gelt, they are both not alive anymore.
even the gerer shtibel they wanted to stop till Fishoff got involved
Drei Nisht a Kopf

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
I am not denying that in Presburgh was some hisnagdus and Reb Chaim Sofer(was not to long a talmid of the CS he was young) was a misnaged. Thats the reason why he had to leave Munkatch, But we also we have to agree that all in all the majority was pro chassidus as his famous talmidim were chasidim as the Kol arye and Reb Mendel Desher. And his sons Reb Shimon and the Ksav Sofer were friendly with rebbes, plus his most famous talmid the Mharam Shick was no misnaged at all he has hespedim on rebbes even rebbes that were not famous in nigleh as thev Tosher so its not black and white as you say.
It is a subject that can be disccussed forever. There are people with vested interest that are out to portray him as a misnaged as Hamburger of the Neo Ashkenaz movment. In his proffesional manner he twists everything to his neo ashkenazic slant.

Anonymous said...

Yisroel
There is nobody refuting Schneurs claim that there was marriges between the sects in russia
But most of these families were diluted chbadsker families like Reb Moshes father was a Koidenever or the Stiepler was a Hornistiepler. Plus it was a situation in Russia that you were glad you found a Bochur that is warm to Yiddishkiet. As after the WW11 you saw shiduchim between all kind of people. You were happy you found a bochur or a girl a shomer torah. But when Velt is Velt no Chabadsker would want his family shouldnt be brought pure Chabad.

Fred said...

"I think the reader hit this one on the head. Most Litvak hotheads have as much in common with real Machshovoh as a chipmunk does, but they have a knack of making mountains out of molehills.."

you can say the same about most Lubabs and Chabad Chassidus. and its not because they spend their whole day in Nigle either

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Lets just examine what the Chasam Sofer held. You don't need Metituz at ALL, he ate Gebrukst, davened Askenaze, thought there was no reason to grow a beard, Lag B'Omer was a scam, gave haskoma to a german transilation of gemara (later withdrawn) etc. Need I say more. Yes, as the ENTIER hungary became chassidish, so did his talmidim. But he himself was a mild misnaged. Much like many Litvisher Gedolim today. Who may have freindly relations with chassidim, and respect chassidisher gedolim, (is there ANYONE who would say a word against the Avnei Neizer) but on the whole are misnagdin. They may not be obssesed with it as Chabad is, but it is there.

Twistelton-twistelton said...

A few more for Anonymous of 9:50 on Sunday. The Chasam Sofer (PRINTED IN TESHUVSE) wrote that his Talmidim should get a hold of Rav Yaackov Emdens sefer on how the Zohar is full of later insertions not from Rav Shimon Bar Yochi (I won't even mention what Hamberger writes in his name), he quotes the Meor Enayin (rossi), not Chernobyl, a VERY controversial sefer to say the least. He decided a Machlokes rishonim based on WHAT DOCTORS TOLD HIM. The Chasam Sofer was a mild Misnaged. Not for nothing did the Erlua Rebbe pay the last biographer of the Chasam Sofer $20,000 to take out the chapter about the Chasam Sofer and Chassidim. It wasn’t because it was all praise. The proof you are bringing is the equivalent of saying that Rav Aron Kotler was not a Misnaged because he loved the Kapishneter Rebbe. And you are trying to prove it not from the Chasam Sofer, but his tamlidim!!!

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

” Gershon
Reb yoels coming to lakewood was a big fight in lakewwood they expelled the 2 guys that organized it and they stopped their wages (of 20 bucks a month)kolel gelt, they are both not alive anymore.
even the gerer shtibel they wanted to stop till Fishoff got involved
Drei Nisht a Kopf”
And do you remember what he said in Yeddidya Einhorns basement. That the Rebbe told him that he was Moshiach, and that if the Rebbe died he (the Rebbe) was a Navi Shecker and he (Yoel Kahn) would throw stones at his Aron. What happened with THAT!!!!

Anonymous said...

hot er gezogt
he is not a Rebbe

Anonymous 8/15 2:47 said...

Snag, are you the same creep I had similar arguments with in the comments to the Seforim Blog in previous years?

You make use of the same twisted 'logic', and you prove to be equally as immune to sensible talk.

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
All your proof on certain things that he did different then chasidim doesnt say much, there were many rebbes that didnt adhere 100%to the chasidic custom.As the Bichocher rov was working to influence people to put on tefilin on Chol Hamoed, the Chechenover davened Nussach Ashkenaz,
On gebroks, according Reb Yoshe Shoib sipurim it all started by the Magid and the Baal shem wasnt machmir Plus the Izhbitzer and others were not so machmir on Gebroks. But its ironic that CS in a teshuva in Yoreh deiah 222 calls it in a respective manner Minhag Perushim. Also saying 1 liberal statement from 1000's of pesokim will not make him in Reb Dovid Zvi Hoffman.But all the above dont make him a misnaged. About the Erlauer, I heard a story from someone that was there when he visited the Brisker rov and discussed the CS and chassidus I will leave it for another time.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Anonyumus,

According to your logic, I am Chassidish!!! Everything I do some chassidim do. Many Rebbes may have had some Askenaze Minhadim, the CS had many. Yes I know the CS called Gebroks minhage pirushim, BUT he did eat gebrokst. PLease either post the story with the Rov, or email me off line @ joe1225us@yahoo.com. I really do want to hear it. But even you must admit that a good case can be made that the CS was closer to a misnaged that a chossid, no? BTW, when did chernoble swich to Sefard. And dosent Biali daven Askenaze until today?

Anonymous said...

twitleton
I would never label the CS as a chosid But knowing the facts, (I am not relying on all the printed stories that chasidim of Reb Sholem Belzer came to him and there is like twenty torahs that are similar Nachshone writes it in his book)that he himself was quoting Tanya in Parshas Behaloscho in the 5 vol. CS al hatorah, and he quotes the Kedushas levi beshem Mekubal achod, writing to the Yismach Moshe the biggest titles after his father in law eventough he was by then the Big Rebbe in Hungary will definitley make him a yedid with issues as taking the nusach hoari for the masses, since his both rebbes davened that nussach with there private minyanim, on that issue you can see that even the son of Reb Elimelech in his letter in noam elimelech agrees that the Nusach is for yechudei segula, and so the CS disagreed on the anti wool sentiment of chasidim.Basicaly he believed its a exclusive club.
If you need hungarian misnagdim I would go for the Lev family of Uhele Reb Yermiya and his son Reb Elozer

Avremele said...

kan haben shoeyl said...

Re the Satmarer Rebbe saying that nishtakcho toras Habaal Shem Tov.

Does anyone know exactly when he said this and in what context?

Better yet, can anyone provide a written quote?

And in which farbrengen did the LR mention it?

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:34:00 PM

-----------------------------------

Some Satmare chassidim may disagree with this, but I believe the context was as follows. At the time it was said, groups of ehrliche bochurim in the Rebbe's yeshiva were starting to get attached to several chassidishe sefarim. There was hisbodedus, taaneisim, and various sigufim involved. All this was destroying the limud haTorah. It was a hora'as sha'a.

Nowadays, the opposite is occuring. The bachurim are losing the varemkeit of chassidus. For example, Hershy Shnitzler. He learned many complete masechtas with rishonim and achronim. Later, he ran away to Thailand and while living with a shiksa like a goy continued learning with hasmada. That's why the current Satmar Rebbe brings varemkeit into his talmidim's hearts. Be it fiering his Friday Night Tish together with them as he did when he was "just" the Rov and more.

Avremele said...

Please note: The Satmar Rebbe wasn't the first who put "regular" learning before chassidus. The Tsanzer Rov did the same thing.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Anonymous:

To ‘prove’ that the Chasam Sofer was sympathetic to Chassidus because he wrote nice titles to one of his talmidim who became chassidish is, as I mentioned before plain silly. I am not claiming that he was a rabid misnagid like the GRA. Think of him as a moderate misnagid like say Rav Aron Kotler. Who was not fond of chassidus, yet could still respect a Chassidish Gadol.

The Chasam Sofer may quote two chassidish Seforim, but considering who else he quoted, it is hard to make to much of that. BTW, which Sefer Tanya is he quoting, Chabad or the Rishon?

Meanwhile, please either post the story of the Brisker rov and The Erlua or contact me offline @ Joe1225us@yahoo.com. I am about to plotz from curiosity.

schneru said...

"Dilluted Chabad families in Russia" - Yes todays BT who spent 10 years in an Ashram becomes "frum" and puts on "Toms " buys a sirtuk (should be surdut)and a gartel , doz is spitz Chabad !!! This is tkeh" a meyfes. Maybe its spitz chagas but not Chabad vehamayvin yavin !
Just a disclaimer my family in White Russia had many Tmimmim in their ranks so I have no negios here.
I am tired and bored. There is a great Jewish world outside of Chabad. (I note many geza Chabad people themselves recognize this)
There is a new reality of today"s Chabad. Nothing I write or Taayne will change the new reality. Could have been should have been will be etc etc. But the facts on the ground speak very clearly.
I firmly believe that in 20 years a great many Chabad young people will leave this movement in droves.It upsets me that this great school of Religious philosophy a real derech hachaim has morphed into a sort of jewish salvation Army ! Ouch !

fun der heim said...

my family comes from velizh and dvinsk. everybody used the russian word surtuk and noone said surdut. so even if there is some farvorfener dialect that says surdut drey nit dem kop and dont say with such confidence " it should be " etc .
makes tiy think all the other " facts" said bt schneur wih such zicherkeut are as reliable

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Its 17th years since the stroke allready and Chabad is growing by close to 2000 couples a year if 500 families will leave there will still be minyan in Chabad. So please stop being depressed its not healthy.
I see your BT hate as despicable. I tought you have more tolerance Could be only for a Belzer hungarian BT that is wearing white socks to his Chupah vs the chabad BT that wears shabos the minimum Bigdie Meshi and the chabad talis( that you despise)

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
please look in to the sefer CS al hatorah and you will see for yourself the footnotes of Reb Y N Stern he calls it Likutie Amorim not Tanya

schneur said...

My facts are as reliable as the Chashifa rishonas printed in KFAR CHabad Magazine and the stories in Bedidi have Uvde...
The Mormon Church and other Churches are growing by more than 2000 couples a year vayirbu vayishretzu...
I like BT's but not a movement that takes a "tinok shenishba" who will never learn gemora until he has been in Chabad for 10 years puts on a "Special" a kapote a gartel and a beged shel meshi (how many Anash in Nevel wore bigdei meshi ???) and 1 year later the guy is not religious and joins that special Chabad revolving door club.How long did matisyahu last in Chabad ?
I do not despise the Chabad Tallis I just know that no one before 1950 except for Rabbi Landau wore that Tallis .Its about as Chabad as the hat the Anash wear today or the Polo shorts favored by the Pirche kehunah in this group.Its just another way of saying we are different look at us we do it the right way.

friendly anonymous said...

Reb Schneur,

Where did you ever get the bizare idea that Chabad is meant to be a cultural group/community/shul network like Young Israel?

As far as I understand from the limited chassidus that I have learned, chabad is a spritual path to growth in Avodas Hashem, and either one learns chassidus and work on self-improvement, in which case one is a chabadnik, or one doesn't, in which case he's not.

I see people leaving Chabad communities, but not people leaving limud Chassidus Chabad; in fact, I frequently meet "yeshivishe" people who learn the Rebbe's seforim. As a chasidus therefore, which is what Chabad actually is, Chabad is growing.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Your analogy to the Mormons is a cheap shot and no response .
If the Talis is a Dor Hashvei thing, then so be it, The Rebbe had enough Briete Plietzes to create a new minhag in Chabad. From all the thousands of BT that started wearing the levush there isnt more drop outs then Yoilys with Shtriemels so get off that BT Sirtuk hangover,besides the point that the Rebbe was not into the levush business (that is 1 of his liabilities by most Polishe Chasidim) and the BT puts it on just to fit in. Its amazing how the hatred against Chabad goes,if they wouldnt wear the sirtuk then the argument would go, that Chabad is full of Hippies.

Regarding yor false gan eden that you like to portray of the aimolige chabad,in order to build your venomous arguments against chabad of today. These whole geonim period in chabad vs. today is false, The rebbe with his hands created and attracted an elitist group that Chabad didnt have in all of its history, there were some yechidim as the Toras Chesed by the Tzemach Tzedek or Rivkin the biggest goan of the old tomchei temimim, but today you can cound the Kalmansohns brothers one of the Reshimas Shiurim on a big part of Shas and the other brother from the Afikie yam on the Lamed Tes Melochos and also on Shas,Reb Motel Ashkenazi the Rov of Kfar Chabad, The Rosh of LA and many others Roshei Yeshivas.They are all proud with the geon yakov of Chabad in there torah by kochen zich in the Alte Rebbe and the Rebbe ZYA In the world of chasidus the Rebbe built yungerliet that understand chassidus bar none for genarations you didnt have this deep understanding that you have today you can see it in the masterpieces of Chasidus Mevioras and in the biurim of Reb Yoel,Gopin,Altien etc.. the alte chasidim in 770 were in awe of the new genarations havone in chasidus.

rosen said...

Anonymous 7:18 pm
Scneour does not build 'venomous attacks' against Chabad.Apparently, you and many Lubab do not know the defintion of 'hate' or 'venom' to you it's anybody who dares say a word about Lubab.
Anyway,I don't think anybody in their right mind thinks that Chabad of today is more scholarly than past generations.In fact Chabad is looked down upon by the frum world because they have produced very few scholars of merit in the 'dor hashvi'i'.It's easy to check out and see how many seforim which deal with non chassidus issues are put out by Lubavitchers and very few of those are taken seriously. Btw, one of the few seforim which are held of in oiled hayeshivas is by the Kalmanson you mentioned but I think you screwed up the name.It's called Mey Tal.
Be well and remember that a little introspection is always good.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Noch mer, look at how many quality seforim on Shulchan Oruch Horav are put out by non-Lubavitchers vs. Lubavitchers

schneur said...

There is much to rsepond to the screed by anonymous. Who is denying that there are lomdim among Chabad but not a great manyas that is not the goal is to find a millionaire and help relieve him of his heavy load. The rosh in LA in fact did not learn in Lubavitch, the same is true of rav Heller and the asst Rosh in Morristown as well as some others.
I did not compare chabad to the Mormons rather to (lehavdil) the Salvation Army.
I can enumerate hundreds of names of lomdim in Chabad between 1900 and 1944 who my writer has probably never heard of (By the way who made rav Rivkin the BIGGEST GAON of the old Tmimmim, I doubt many of the Russian Tmmimim would agree with that statement kvodo bimkomo munach!)
But aderabba I think we can prove that things are different in chabad today than in lets say in 1914 , in those years Chabad had few tummlers even fewer Pr men, fewer Shlichim and even fewer administrators, just evdim, rabbonim , erliche pashute yidden , no motorcycle rabbis , no surfer rabbis, no Kabbalsits experts on Dibbukim and Hollywood rabbis. Yup things have changed!

Anonymous said...

Rosen
I understand that you believe that Chabad should be besmirched from morning till night and all Chabadniks have to stand in line and get 39 lashes on a daily bases.You have lots of company that share your view.

Anonymous said...

Shneur
Please provide us with the lists of the 100s of the Chabad Gedoilim (besides the book Lubavitch Vechayilosihe since that one I know) that will be enjoyed by everyone. At least some positive will come out of all your rantings.
I see that you have good Loshan Hora of Rav Rivkin that you don't want to share because you are sensitive for his honor.But Chabad as a whole became your daily sport.

Anonymous said...

Rosen
I will not argue with you forever lets make it simmple and easy.
Ger in Israel has a myth that its only Torah and Torah, that the Beis Yisroel woke up everyone 3 in the morning. They didn't waste time on Kiruv etc..
Please provide at least 10 to 15 Gerer Talmidie Chachomim with name recognition in the world,That wrote seforim that is being used in the Yeshiva world or in the Halacha world. I can help you with 2 people Rav Shafran and maybe Rav Fisher of BP

Anonymous said...

Friendly Anon
Good seforim on the alter chachomim wrote 2 people Reb Chaim Sholem Deutsch and Reb Motel Ashkenazi,They other ones or they patched their bekius to the AR as Rav Stien of Benai Berak that is a nice talmud chichom on his own, or the other ones that are weak

Anonymous said...

>>Kaminetzky.I don't think that he 'hated' Chabad.R'Yaakov actually had a relationship with the Rebbe.But yes he was a 'misnaged'

Do you people just make things up? What is wrong with you people?