Thursday, August 14, 2008

Pots and Kettles



(If it's incoherent I apologize...)

Here we sit listening to guys like Schneur telling us how Chabad has it coming because it went from "Nevel and Minsk to Madison Avenue." They lost their way - they say - and we're just responding accordingly. Everything they do involves fund raising and collecting money - they say - they're terrible. In other words blame Lubavitch. They're terrible people who did not nothing to stop assimilation in the US despite 60+ years of outreach and education. OK. I hear what they're saying. Then I open the papers and read online how Aish's tactics are under attack, how they're PAYING people to go on Birthright trips with them, but I hear nothing from these same righteous sages. OK, there's nothing WRONG with paying people to go to Israel, maybe that's why they're silent. Why Aish gets a free pass with all their antics is very simple. You and me know it, and they know it. It's because they're the antidote to Lubavitch. It's so the Yeshivishe Velt can say "We do Kiruv too, and we do it the right way!"

But that's the seder Ha'olam, and you get used to it after a while. You realize that you're in a minority and you make due with the situation. Then there are times that it just gets to you. You buy a Jewish newspaper because there's nothing else to read, and what else would you want your kids to see, and you're ready to puke. There they are, the Kiruv workers with their "Shelichim", collecting money already for the Jews of Tbilisi, since according to them they're the ones who are responsible for the Russian BT Movement, and they're the ones who are caring for all the Jews in the FSU now, especially Tbilisi. We KNOW that's the case because the Mashgiach HaDor goes there and hugs the little Russian/Georgian kids, so it MUST be so. So if you have a conscience give to the Vaad, they'll save them. איי they just had a huge dinner where all the fatcats came and felt good about themselves that they support Kiruv? that doesn't matter, I guess all that money already went to good use. There, I'm rattling again. Let them have their money and their spotlights, it's none of my business. It's G-d's world, and right now he seems to like them more.

After seeing what a group can do when it has the press backing it and helping it spread the exaggeration what remains for the outsiders like Lubavitch? Here's a theory I have: One reason Chabad has to try so hard to get its message out is BECAUSE of the fact that they're shut out from the mainstream Jewish press! The Rebbe understood how the human mind works and that word needs to get out if Shluchim will ever make it in their towns. The fact that it's perfectly acceptable - in the eyes of the Charedi world - for a Kolel or Aish guy to move into an established community with a strong Chabad presence and ride the backs of these Shluchim, and take their people tells us how righteous these Kiruv professionals really are. Yet when a Shliach comes to a town where the old Rabbi there, someone who last did anything in 1966, has zero contact with those Jews who never step into his shul, and starts a kindergarten, or G-d forbid a minyan in his basement, the world comes to an end. The point here is that the perception that Lubavitchers are these terrorists who come and disrupt the pristine atmosphere that the Agudah/YTV/YU/TU set up all across America and the world is an image that you'll see only in the press. Kind of like Madison Avenue showing you that all housewives are perfectly groomed and manicured while baking cookies in a spotless kitchen.

33 comments:

endthemadness said...

Great another Orthodox drug bust!?!

http://www.hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=798

According to Hamercaz the kids are still in jail

JJ said...

endthemadness said:
Great, another Orthodox drug bust!?

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=798

According to Hamercaz the kids are still in jail.


endthemadness -

Let's face it -

Goyim eat, Jews eat.
Goyim sleep, Jews sleep.
Goyim do drugs, Jews do drugs.

Stop getting so excited each time you hear about it

Anonymous said...

Were they Lubavitchers? The girl who OD'd last week was.

Moshe G said...

Listen,.
You are a shallow, mindless drone.
You are going through some personal crisis and projecting your garbage onto others.You have a chutzpah talking in the name of Chabad and giving them a name of jealous and bitter partisans.Maybe, you're a plant to make Lubavitch look bad? If not , get through your issues, focus on YOUR problems and get the help you need, moral, spiritual, chemical if need be.
If you are Chabad, thank God for them availing themselves to you.
Last but not least, you'd need to live a couple of lifetimes before you had one iota of the historical perspective that Schneour has.

Josh said...

In all honesty there is more to critique about Lubavitch than Aish. Aish was started as a family business with few pretenses of meaning much more than any other corporate entity. Lubavitch was founded to enable contemplative prayer and communion with God. So for some people it is more painful to see Lubavitch throw its rich theological and philosophical legacy in the gutter than it is to see Aish act like Aish.
Aish is an outgrowth of the psuedoLithuanian Yeshivish sect of the Kharedist group. The yeshiva world, even before its annihilation, nurtured few thinkers of note and produced only useless compilations of novellae on the Talmud by armchair casuists. This is not a world with the same rich heritage as Lubavitch, so if they attempt to sell their second rate wares, it is much less annoying then when we hear that the Tanya is for memorization, that we need to support your fascist leader or that the world would be a better place if only Arkady-the-Barber-with-a-hamsa-in-his-store would leyg Rabbeini Tams.
Finally, I need to address your point about the usefulness of the Shluchim. Unfortunately, in your community, shlichus is seen as an economic activity. Therefore there are concrete motivations to raise money and build institutions even in places that do not need them. This does not mean that there are not places that do need more Jewish institutions, but that sending Shluchim to make a living off the Jewish communities which are already well served by others can only lead to a depletion of resources and a net loss for those communities. Jewish communal coffers are finite and it is a waste to expend them on redundant cholent and kugel.

yehupitz said...

Josh,
Care to back up the following drivel you mentioned earlier '

''The yeshiva world, even before its annihilation, nurtured few thinkers of note and produced only useless compilations of novellae on the Talmud by armchair casuists. This is not a world with the same rich heritage as Lubavitch''

I dare say you know little of The Yeshiva World and even less about Lubavitch.What you apparently want to do is stir up trouble.You belong to those (neither)Modern (nor)Orthodox clowns who enjoy nothing more than seeing those hated 'black hatters' beat each other bloody, while you and your other 'aufgeklerteh' cynics such as Noah Feldman enjoy the spectacle.

Josh said...

Yehupitz, I think that perhaps we have very different ideas about who a thinker of note might be, but this does not spring from ignorance on either side. Of course if someone values the works of the Yeshivist authors on abstruse matters of Safek then far be it from me to impugn them. Obviously within their own criteria some products of the Yeshivist movement displayed incredible intellectual virtuosity. At the same time, we cannot discount the views of such an eminent former yeshivist as Bialik, who saw the suffocation of the life and spirit within the four cubits of Halakha. In any case, while I do not like being insulted, you are certainly right to call me on my exaggerations and I appreciate the substantive part of your critique. At the same time I stand by my assertion that the theological works of the Lubavitchers represent an intellectual achievement of a different significance and magnitude than those of the Yeshiva world. While some may see Mussarists as proto-psychological or even see the categorizations of Brisk as proto-phenomenological, such distant affinities do not compare to the modes of quietist prayer and theological introspection useful to people of all faiths that we find in Lubavitch.
Thank you for your useful critiques of my sometimes overheated rhetoric. While Tziggy may deserve it for his Chinese food analogy, it is not entirely accurate to what I meant to communicate.

Anonymous said...

>Were they Lubavitchers? The girl who OD'd last week was.

She was someone who -with her sister- consented to Gerus at age 12---

they abandoned Judaism within the year.

Hirshel Tzig said...

drug use and subsequent ODing was not the topic of the thread here.

Joey K said...

I think the use of Bialik as a 'thinker of note' is totally of the mark.He was a great writer.

My idea of a 'thinker of note' would be the late Yeshyahu Leibovitz.

Rabbi j.b Soloveichik was a thinker of note.
I have to say that in my humble opinion I do not see the late Lubavitcher Rebbe as a thinker of note.I know that this is not discussion here and I'm butting in, but if I may I'd like to make this point and hear what others say.
The Rebbe was a brilliant man knowledgeable in all fields religous or secular but not the type who has made intellectual revolutions.He ammassed and disseminated knowledge but did not show new amazing lights.From my perusing of his Sichos and maybe unfairly, using his followers as examples I am underwhelmed.I see for example that his intellectual reach has not strayed beyond Lubavitch boundries, despite his amazing success at sending out thousands of emissaries.The non Lubavitch world has not immersed itself in his works at all, despite a whole publishing house that churn out countless works and weekly ideas.It is difficult to find any of his works in non Lubavitch synagogues or yeshivas.
Again this may not be fair, but using Lubavitch pulpit rabbis as examples of his teachings (and by this I mean that they generally repeat his ideas and themes in their sermons)I find the ideas, repetitive and simplistic.If someone has ever studied the works of the Ishbitzer, R'Tzodok or in a different style but just as unique,The Meshech Chochma, you may understand what I mean.When seeing their thought process one feels like they have been struck with lightning,at a revelation of Torah on Sinai.

These are just a jumble of thoughts.
I also want to add that ,maybe the Lubavitcher works disseminated and spoken to the masses were meant as ideas that would be accesible to all, therefore the lack of depth which would make it unattainable for most.

Any ideas?

akiva said...

Off topic
The girl who 'od'd was born to a Jewish woman and non jewish father, so why the need for geirus?
I hope this is not some vile insult against the deceased.Also even if true, one who converts halachikally and than decides to stop being religous is just like any other Jew

e.m. said...

Joey k-
The style of chabad chasidus is not short vertlach or "bolts of lightning". The definition of Chaba"d is lengthy and full understanding of the idea. If you dont have the time to learn through a sicha properly and realize on your own the rebbes chidushim in learning (especially in the Rashi and Pirkei Avos sichos) then just look at the testimony of some the gedolei yisrael. How they praised the rebbes chidushim...

Anonymous said...

Tzig - I don't want to burst your bubble but what you wrote just above: THAT'S THE PROBLEM

While Rome burns, Nero plays his fiddle.
Jewish kids are dying, Jewish kids from FRUM homes are suffering, dying, turning away from Yiddishkite to the most extreme extent and all you want to do is stick to your topic "Aish vs Chabad"

This is WHY our kids are turning away. We teach them Ahavas Yisroel and all the other good stuff and then we crap all over each other. We nit pick the most inconsequental nonesense. Our kids are being lost because their leadership play politcs, are driven by money and power (across the board) and then deem who is a good jew and who is not...

Lets deal with REAL issues and maybe save a life or two

Anonymous said...

So what did the Apter change and what was the Maaseh of P'shescha?

Burech said...

אז, כשחסידי חב"ד בירושלים היו חלק ממארג החיים החרדי, יכל להתארגן מעמד כזה שכל ראשי הפלגים החרדים מקבלים את פניו של הרבי הריי"צ. לך תסביר היום למישהו, כי ראשי חב"ד, ראשי כולל חב"ד היו חברים בגופים הרשמיים של העדה החרדית ואגודת ישראל.

הגאון הרב שלמה יהודה לייב אליעזרוב שהיה רבה של חברון ורב בירושלים, מונה לחבר בועדת השחיטה של העדה החרדית.

גיסו הגאון הרב מענדל נאה מחשובי רבני חברון וירושלים, מונה לחבר הנהלת העדה החרדית.

ובנו של האחרון -הרב חיים נאה מחשובי הפוסקים, היה חבר הנהלת העדה החרדית.

שלושתם היו מראשי כולל חב"ד וגם חברים בגופים הרשמיים של העדה החרדית ואגו"י שהיו אז גופים משולבים אחד בשני.

הלואי שהיום, היינו חלק מהמארג החיים החרדי בארץ ישראל, ולא היינו מארגנים מופעי שחץ המרחיקים מאיתנו את הציבור החרדי.
Once upon a time Lubavitch had shaychus to yidden and yiddishkait.Today??

Fred said...

".From my perusing of his Sichos and maybe unfairly, using his followers as examples I am underwhelmed.I see for example that his intellectual reach has not strayed beyond Lubavitch boundries, despite his amazing success at sending out thousands of emissaries.The non Lubavitch world has not immersed itself in his works at all, despite a whole publishing house that churn out countless works and weekly ideas.It is difficult to find any of his works in non Lubavitch synagogues or yeshivas."

Unfairly indeed..plenty of drushes in Litivish shuls over the years came from Likutei Sichos but were conveniently borrowed. I myself pointed out to one of the pioneers in the Internet Parasha page a dozen or so years ago that several of his drushes quoted in the name of big Litvaks were plagiarized from Likutei Sichos which was clearly evident when I checked the day that da Gadol said it and saw in each case that it was a year or two after that volume of Likutei Sichos was published... yadua.

Fred said...

"If someone has ever studied the works of the Ishbitzer, R'Tzodok or in a different style but just as unique,The Meshech Chochma, you may understand what I mean.When seeing their thought process one feels like they have been struck with lightning,at a revelation of Torah on Sinai."

I have and cannot disagree....then you simply did not learn the Rebbe properly as it is the same.

rover said...

Looks like Lipa’s is on track for a head-on collision with the “Gedolim

http://www.hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=841

Get ready for the big ban 2 . . .
Here’s the actual video of what happened:

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/mfile.php?id=3319

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Reisman has a tape "The story of P'shischa" for 2004.

Hirshel Tzig said...

AFAIK there was an attempt to put the Pshische Rebbe in Ches. By other Chassidic groups IIRC. The Apter Rov was to be the one to give the OK, if they could get him to agree to it. 5 of the greatest Talmidim went to speak to the AR at a wedding to present their case in defense of the accusations against them and convinced him not to do it.

Chaim said...

Fred,
When I read the following I have a problem taking folks like you seriously '..plenty of drushes in Litivish shuls over the years came from Likutei Sichos but were conveniently borrowed. I myself pointed out to one of the pioneers in the Internet Parasha page a dozen or so years ago that several of his drushes quoted in the name of big Litvaks were plagiarized from Likutei Sichos which was clearly evident when I checked the day that da Gadol said it and saw in each case that it was a year or two after that volume of Likutei Sichos was published... yadua.''


The guy said that the works of the Lubavitcher Rebbe are not widely studied OUTSIDE of Lubavitch, despite major efforts.Your answer is that some sermons may have been plagiarized!!!Is that what you call 'widely disseminated'??
(besides for your 'proof' that some internet posting was plagiarized because similar ideas appeared in Lekutei Sichos proves that you have no idea about any learning at all)

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

The idea that Litvesher Rabbonim would say over the rebbes torah is a joke. Style is much too different. Guy is hallucinating. Or he thinks the Rebbe WROTE the torah so anything at all is plagiarism

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

The idea that Litvesher Rabbonim would say over the rebbes torah is a joke. Style is much too different. Guy is hallucinating. Or he thinks the Rebbe WROTE the torah so anything at all is plagiarism

Hirshel Tzig said...

Twisty

you know better than that. The Rebbe didn't speak Gimatriyo'os and such.

gordon said...

Tziggy
You also dropping down to Freds low level?
Without going into the quality of the content of the Sichos the style is very different than your yeshiva style way of learning.Only gimatriyo'os is what differs between a chasidic and misnagdic style drosho?How about kabolo and chasidic thought replete in the Sichos?
B'kitsur besides some ideas it would be difficult to 'copy' the Rebbes style.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

HT,

Without having an example of the alleged plagarisim, it is hard to say, but by and in large, the rebbes Sichos were full of chassidish and kabbala concepts. Stuff that it is hard for a Litvisher rov to give an entier drusha on. I have never even heard a single Gematria from any of my Rosh Yeshivahs. To the extent that they both spoke about the same point (say what was the point od Billams donkey talk), it is natural that there would be an overlap.

Anonymous said...

Whoever reads the Griz al hatorah would love the Rebbes torah it is deeper with much more bekius he would never say a savora without a solid marei makom.He tries that every biur in rambam should match with the rambam as a whole not just localy.I am not diminishing Brisk since there brains are wired to focus localy. Rybs of boston was more multifaceted then the old brisk

sdr said...

Twistelton-Twistelton,
in litvishe yeshivos they don't learn tzofnas paneach (the Rogachover) either. The Rebbe's derech halimud hos are similiar to the Rogachover's derech, and most litvaks (unfortunately for them) can't relate to it. I can say from aidus berurah that R' Yaakov Kaminetzky and R' Yaakov Ruderman read the Rebbe's sichos every week from the algemeiner journal. A friend of mine overheard them discussing it during the siyum daaf yomi at MSG in 5742 (or was it 5743?)

Sosson said...

If we want to rely on the anonymous Lubab posters, than we are also missing out.He is 'much deeper' with 'much more bekius' than the Gri'z Al Hatora (as if their style is at all similar for the comparison ,again the Lubab show their 'mevinus'.....)
He is bigger than the ,Meshech Chochma,more brilliant and original than the Ishbitzer, knows more than Rogotshover.Bekitser more than everyone.
The big problem is nobody realizes it.Nebach.Besides the Lubab of course They are after all 'well known' for their 'erudition' .They 'must' know what they are talking about...........

Fred said...

" it is hard to say, but by and in large, the rebbes Sichos were full of chassidish and kabbala concepts. Stuff that it is hard for a Litvisher rov to give an entier drusha on. I have never even heard a single Gematria from any of my Rosh Yeshivahs."

Nebach. Its shows you have not learned the Rebbe's sichas. As they are not full of gematrias and kabbalah..barely.


"He is bigger than the ,Meshech Chochma,more brilliant and original than the Ishbitzer, knows more than Rogotshover"

I did not say the Rebbe was greater.

Look if you cannot even relate to a Rogachover.. then to paraphrase you using the comments of the Debreciner on those who assur a toilet plunger on Shabbas.... you have not even walked into a beis medrash.
I was listening to Berel Wein give over how they all floacked to be tested and insulted by the Rogachover.. the Ponenvicher, Rav Teitz etc.../.. at least they acknowledged his greatness.

And I am going to say lashon hara (I leaRNED thru the Chofetz Haim) and say whose back shelves I saw Likutei Sichos on..see sdr above.

I can compare as I learn Reb tzadok, the Ishbitzer, Rav Dessler, Sichos Mussar, etc besides Chabad..

and I will agree that most Lubabs are as narrow minded as you are about their own learning....believing the Rebbe created the Torah as you put it,,

schneur said...

As Josh says who cares about Aish and other such groups. I have little regard for their inner self. R. Noach Weinberg is to be compared to the Nesei Chabad ? But Chabad was mer vi Epes it was kulo kadosh. It was ruchnius, avoda men hot gemont - yes af zich nit af yenem. Better yourself . It produced the greatest Lomdim, rabbonim, thinkers etc The rebbe was the traffic cop who gave you the directions but he was not the bus driver leave that to the gutte yiddn in Polin and the vaibershe rebbes all over.
And look where all of this got us into some crazy money driven, publicity hungry, Messianic (and not real messianism, not even the integrity of the kas hashatz YMSH who gave up their gashmius for their nonsense) group who have decided that some famed rabbi is the Mashiach ad sof kol hadoros , and this is not a new religion ?

Fred said...

Naw with the money and publicity hungry priorities it is closer to the Litvaks...

Anonymous said...

sosson
that anon never said whad you are saying so for venting your hot anti chabad air get your self your buddues