Daniel Eidensohn
I was recently made aware of the DaatTorah Blog. In a nutshell; the blog can be defined in one word: Hateful. In a scholarly, "We're concerned about the problematic teachings and sichos" kind of way. Which is kind of like the white supremacists pointing out the "problematic passages in the Talmud." If you have a problem with Jews then you'll believe anything. The same goes for Lubavitch, a microcosm of the entire Klal Yisroel. What DaatTorah is, is basically rehashed Areivim posts and thoughts by some of the shining stars who post there, Mr. Eidensohn included. One thing did surprise me, the fact that he put his name and picture up for all to see. His name is on all his comments on Areivim, but the picture adds a nice touch to it. Makes it a very open exchange of ideas and of opinions, and shows that he truly believes in what he opines, and is willing to put his face behind every comment.
Why does that surprise me? After all, it's only the ones who show the hypocrisies of the mainstream that need to worry about their safety and the education and marriage prospects of their children. They're the ones who are terrified of people finding out who they are and phone calls made to their childrens' chadorim and schools that the ____________ kids are not be allowed there anymore. Not that I think I need to worry about THAT aspect of it, or at least that's I'm told, but I do need to worry in general, you never do know which zealot can decide that I offended his something or other and deserve to be hurt or my property damaged. So we live in anonymity, and the Eidensohns of the world are out there for all to know, maybe even thinking of themselves as respectable gentlemen doing what's right ------ fighting the evil empire, Chabad.
C'est La Vie.
76 comments:
You are being ridiculous! So you are a chicken to put your name and face on the blog but you have to find something wrong with ppl who have the guts to do so... It must be that they are in a different position, right. Oh poor Tzig, please stay anonymous. Hirshel Tzig will also be the name on your "Hypocrite of the month" diploma.
Recpect to Rav Eidensohn for putting his name and photo on his blog.
I see only one nafka minah from you to him. He makes chabad to ashpa and you make the chareidi word ashpa.
Where is his Doctorate from and in what is it in or his an M.D.? You have to give him credit he dislikes almost all Chasisdim equally he just dislikes Chabad and Breslov more!?
Where's the hate? I followed the link and read a number of the postings and I see a lot of hard questions but I did not read one hateful word.
Tzig,
You and Micheal Savage have a lot in common.
One of the things you share is that I listen/read both of you and then afterwards i feel like a trash can.
But there's more.
sorry to hear that, Reb.
I don't see any hate on his blog, just honesty. I also really do not understand this whole Chabad is the microcsm of klal yisroel. Is this something the Rebbe taught?
Can you please point out any real examples of hatred in the posts from daatTorah blog. I couldn't find any?
It's just topics for discussion - there is no forceful statements saying that Chabad is the evil of all evils etc...
What don't you 'snags' get?Anybody who has anything critical to say about Lubavitch is a 'hater' 'white supremacist' Blah,blah.
You Tzig are a spineless and gutless backstabber who has the gall the criticize a MAN who is man enough to sign his REAL name!
Now let me go and brech
Tzig, love your blog but I think you have misread the situation here. What is going on from my perspective (and I have commented on some of the posts) is just some even handed debate and discussion.
One of the main participants is Rabbi Oliver from Melbourne, a Chabadnik. So far it seems everyone is getting their fair say, with no mud being slung. I suggest you join the discussion and put in your two cents....
P.S keep on blogging, you have the stuff no one else does!
Very educational in either case. I will have to be careful next time I go to an interdenominational event.
Still waiting for a clarificiation on the whole microcsm of klal yisroel remark.
you do not think he means that within Chabad there are ALL types from MO to Snags to Briskers
IT'S VERY SIMPLE. Lubavitch has all sorts of Jews, it's represented by all sorts of Jews, from the very simple to the very learned, from the very religious to the not-yet religious. Hence the microcosm. Take it or leave it. It's my humble opinion.
I wanted to make sure it was your opinion, not the Rebbe's. I understand where you are coming from, but I suspect others would be equally likely to find their group to be a microcsm of Klal Yisroel, as well. I have met some very ehrlich people from Chabad, I have also met some great talmidei chachomim from Chabad, too.
BTW, I do not find DaatTorah to be anti chabad. His questions, I think, flow from a dispassionate interest to understand the metzios of Chabad thought, not, c"v, to degrade it. Those issues he has are fairly common even among those who are familiar with other Chassidishe seforim.
I should also note that your blog has honorable mention on that blog . . . a vizhnitzer chossid commented about the problems he has with Chabad. Curious to know what you think.
Hey Rael, it's been quite a while ... good to see you're still around the blog world.
-Yanky
Hirshel Tzig said...
"IT'S VERY SIMPLE. Lubavitch has all sorts of Jews, it's represented by all sorts of Jews, from the very simple to the very learned"
HT name me one learned chabadsker.
(And dont tell me Shmuly Boteach)
Anon 8:04
Let me guess: you're a complete imbecile, right?
Rav Eidensohn is questioning in a disrespectful manner subtle deep intellectual concepts in nistar d'torah that he can't relate to. Instead of admitting that he doesn't understand something and is out of his depth or accepting that shivim ponim l'Torah and he has no shaychus to this particular one, he attempts sarcasm and deprecation. "The hate" is in the tone.
Tzig,
We're all still waiting for you to please point out the Chabad hate you found on that site.
Double Helix,
I found absolutely no disrespect in Rav Eidensohn's points. And based on what he has already published, I doubt you can use the old Chabad, "these are deep intelectual concepts that he cannot relate to/this is out of his depth" line. Therer is no hate, no sarcasm, no deprecation in his tone. The Lubavitcher Rabbi who has corresponded with him has been deftly avoiding the confusion a straight forward reading would yield of the texts that Rav Eidinsohn brought up. So, obviously, his questions are legitamite. And, anyone who can read can agree that he is reading and understanding the meaning of the words very accurately. So let's avoid the the self pity, insecurity and projection here. Someone has been raising questions in a legitamite, respectful way. And all he recieved in response was hate, malice, spite and shallowness.
A. Indeed he does not himself spout negaivity (hate etc.) directly. The very fact that he raises the issues to question the validity of the Rebbe's statement is itself a statement, spcially as he knows that every tom, dick and harry is going to spout their ignorant comments. Allowing comments that suggest the Rebbe was ignorant of fundamental principles of Torah and -afar lepumam - said things counter to Torah and mesorah (and worse), is the ultimate bizayon talmidei chachamim against a gadol and tzadik hador! If anyone had done the same re Rabbi Shach (and there are plenty statements of his....) or the Cahzon Ish (and there are statements by him as well...), or the Vilna Gaon (as re what he says of Rambam), he wold explode with thunder and lightening. But Chabad and its rabeyim are hefker.
B. Moderating the comments and then allowing hateful statements about chabad, the Rebbe, the shluchim etc., with invented, unfounded, non-substantiated and non-verifiable accusations (and having nothing to do with the original questions raised) means pure hatred, persecution etc.
c. To call that one-sided rag-blog Daas Torah, as if it is the exclusive depository of Torah, is filthy arrogance which halachically is tantamount to real avodah zara.
>>If anyone had done the same re Rabbi Shach (and there are plenty statements of his....) or the Cahzon Ish (and there are statements by him as well...), or the Vilna Gaon (as re what he says of Rambam), he wold explode with thunder and lightening.
But you did that just now. No one has found anything from the Chazon Ish which is regarded as kefirah, for example. And plenty of people on this blog wrote some really nasty things about the gadol and tzadik hador that you mentioned right before the CI, as well!!!
I looked carefully at the DaasTorah blog and I reiterate that I have not found Rav Eidinson writing anything negative.
No one has found anything from the Chazon Ish which is regarded as kefirah, for example. And plenty of people on this blog wrote some really nasty things about the gadol and tzadik hador that you mentioned right before the CI, as well!!!
a) No one has found, or will ever find, anything from RN of Breslov or the Lubavitch Rebbe that is regarded as kefirah. That's the whole point. Our ignorant heresy-hunting ayatolahs and self-righteous hashkofo-policing taliban make such claims. We are talking about potentially controversial statements, while forgetting the authority of the one who made them and forgetting their own ignorance and narrow-mindedness.
b. As for nasty comments re other rabbonim etc. - 2 wrongs don't make it right. Stupid and nasty comments should be deleted. Even so there is still a difference: there you have a whole blog pretentiously claiming to be daas Torah and altogether devoted to heresy-hunting and giluy aroyos (revealing others' alleged defects). Daas Torah is to watch all halochos, including shmiras haloshon, kovod (gdolei) haTorah, and ahavas Yisroel.
I think that would be incorrect. People have found problems with some of the Rebbe's points. Some of those people were authorities in their own right. The purpose of this blog, it appears, it to understand them. Rabbi Oliver, as you can see, was not up to the task, but if someone else can, it will be.
Finally, I don't think it makes much sense to insult one's intelligence, frame of mind or scholarly achievements. I have emailed Rabbi Eidinsohn and found him to be, actually, very knowledgable. His other books show he sure knows his halacha. Well. I think explanations, rather than knee jerk insults, would get us all much further in the end. I hope we can address one another bsholom and arrive at understanding--not hatred and superiority.
For some reason, the name "Daas Torah" doesnt go down well with me as a name of a blog. With all due respect to Rabbi Eidenson, and i know his sefarim, i find it hard to comprehend that someone who calls himself a talmid chacham has nothing better to do with his time than to run a blog, which is against the general consensus Daas Torah, and then to go and call it Daas Torah???
What will they write about this Rabbi Eidinson after his 120?? Big talmid chacham etc, wrote very chashuver seforim, and had a BLOG???!!! (perhaps a link to his blog and picture will be given as well...)
GEVALD UN GESHRIGEN!!!
Memaile Tzig has a blog, thats after all Lubavitch with no "real" Daas Teaireh, but someone who is subservient to the "Gdeilim" and is a "Gadol" of his own right....
It appears that any discussion of Chabad gets the label of 'hate'
Can't you grow up?
Eidenson and Micha Berger are honest, ehrlicheh people.Lubavitch has a lot to learn from their ability to discuss issues respectfully and with an open mind.
Rambam,Rashi,Rashbo all are discussed, but only Lubavitch is above torah discussion?
The gemora relates a machloikes between the Aybeshter and Pamalyo she maalo.Is the Lubavitcher, even higher than that??
I think the Rebbe felt that those who disagree with him hate Chabad and what it stands for. This would explain why his beloved chassidim (and they love the Rebbe very much) feel this way.
People have found problems with some of the Rebbe's points. Some of those people were authorities in their own right.
If authorities in their own right, of equal caliber or close to it, raise questions, I have no problem. If they are like that they will speak respectfully and recognize the status of the other side accordingly and phrase their problems with tzorich iyun or tzorich iyun godol.
Neither the blog-master, nor any of the cmmenters, regardless how "fine" they may be, are in that class: they are "laymen" at best, and if possessed of any yiras Shomayim and kovod Hatorah would realize that they can't put their 2 cents between those "high mountains" which are way above their heads - and especially in subtle and sensitive matters relating to soidois Hatorah. Morover, they would for sure not open this up to the "masses". On the one hand they scream "ein dorshin bemaaseh bereishis.. bemaaseh merkovoh etc." as the mishnah rules, and then they do so in the marketplace of crude am-horatzim. The only way that such crude conduct can be understood is by detecting obviously negative motivation and bias, looking to stoke fires of divisiveness, denigrate the parties questioned etc.
They don't like chabad - fine! Do your own thing, correct the defects in your own community, but don't be the kisilim merim koloin (Mishlei 3:35 and see there Ibn Ezra), and here also in sense of fools proclaim their own shameful foolishness.
I don't know if this is the spot to post this article from Matzav.com but I feel that since no one is reprinting this , it's important for it to be seminated to the Jewish public.There are a number of rabbonim that visited Agri that some will say are posul leidus because they are noigeah bedovor but most aren't.Most of Agri's critics make a big deal about the fact that the Rubashkins are Lubavitcher such as UOJ which has been one of Mr.UOJ's prime targets of late.I considered posting this on his site but I know I would have been tarred and feathered if I would have done so.I'm considered persona non grate by his groupies because of a number of things that I posted in defense of the Rubashkins and Lubavitch bihclall even though he himself has been friendly with me.Others will say that since Agri was aware of this visit they cleaned up their act, iz doch gut.So here goes. "A group of more than twenty leaders representing several major Jewish organizations and large Jewish communities visited the Agriprocessors plant in Postville, Iowa on Thursday, 28 Tammuz/July 31. Agriprocessors is the largest kosher meat and poultry plant in the United States. The mission, which was spearheaded by Rabbi Pesach Lerner, Executive Vice President of the National Council of Young Israel, was meant to provide the Jewish leaders with a first-hand account of the state of the Agriprocessors plant and the impact that recent developments have had on the Postville community. It is believed that the delegation of Rabbis that visited the plant last week was the first delegation to be inside the plant since the May 2008 raid that was carried out by federal immigration agents.
“We have all heard many media reports coming out of Postville which relate to the Agriprocessors plant,” said Rabbi Lerner. “We wanted to see first-hand the status of the facility’s equipment and machinery, examine the working conditions at the plant, and observe how the employees are being treated.”
The delegation flew into airports in a number of cities throughout the Midwest, including Madison, Wisconsin, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and Dubuque, Iowa. As there is no airport near Postville, the Rabbis traveled anywhere between two and five hours in cars and busses from their respective airports to reach Postville. Following the mission, the Rabbis’ journey was no less tiring with several more hours spent in cars and busses, and numerous flight delays which delayed their return, with most of the Rabbis arriving home after midnight on Thursday night.
The Rabbis began the day by touring the plant. Before embarking on the tour, everyone was required to don a hard hat, hair and beard nets, and a white coat to wear over their clothing, all of which was intended to provide the visitors with a level of safety and to maintain a high level of cleanliness at the plant. The visitors were required to adhere to the same safety and hygienic standards that are required of all workers at the facility.
Shortly after beginning the tour, which was led by managers at the plant, word came of a tornado sighting in the area, which briefly put the tour on hold. Soon thereafter, there was a weather-related power outage at the plant. During that time, the Rabbis waited in the plant’s lunchroom, where many of the workers at the plant were there on break. The participants conversed with the workers, both in English and Spanish, and inquired about the working conditions at the plant, including salaries, working hours, and benefits.
Every worker who spoke with the Rabbis expressed a degree of satisfaction with how much they were being paid and the hours which they worked. Some of the workers noted that the working conditions and the hourly wages that they were being paid at the Agriprocessors plant were a stark improvement over conditions they faced in other meat and poultry plants that they had worked at in the past. Others spoke about the opportunity for advancement that they had at Agriprocessors, which were not available in other meat plants.
After the power was restored, the Rabbis spent time touring the plant, during which time they observed the working conditions in various parts of the facility and spoke with employees to get their perspective about working conditions at the plant. Although several of the plant’s managers were leading the tour, the participants were free to separate from the group and to walk around unimpeded if they so desired. Many of the visitors did break away from the tour and spent a great deal of time speaking to the workers and visiting different areas of the plant unannounced.
The Rabbis also spent time examining the kashrus standards at the Agriprocessors plant. The rabbinic delegation walked through the slaughtering sections for both poultry and beef, and observed all aspects of the processing of the foods including the cooking and preparation of smoked meat.
Some of the Rabbis who are involved in kashrus certification noted several unusual innovations in kosher observance that are unprecedented in the kosher food industry. Rabbi Zvi Zuravin of the St. Louis Vaad Hair, one the oldest kosher certification agencies in the United States, said “What impressed me the most was the innovations in kosher slaughter, salting and the freedom of the kosher supervisory agencies to operate without management’s intrusion.”
During the course of their tour, the Rabbis noticed a number of inspectors from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), which is the government agency responsible for overseeing the meat and poultry production at the Agriprocessors plant. While speaking with the Rabbis, the USDA inspectors said that the conditions at the plant, and the plant’s equipment and facilities were equal or better than other facilities that they have observed.
Following the tour of the plant, the Rabbis took a tour of the city of Postville. They saw the modern affordable housing complexes that the Rubashkin family, the owners of Agriprocessors, had built for its workers and for members of the Postville community. In fact, the mission participants discovered that a number of the families of the workers who were arrested during the May 12th raid are in fact still living in housing provided by the Rubashkins and paying limited, if any, rent. The Rabbis also saw several dilapidated trailers, which are in visible need of repair, that were rented to workers by a Postville City Councilman, and which were mistakenly portrayed in the media as being owned and operated by Agriprocessors. The Rabbis also saw Postville’s day care center, which was built by a number of individual and community groups, including the Rubashkins and Agriprocessors.
The Rabbis also visited the $12 million environmentally-friendly water treatment plant that Agriprocessors constructed. The director of the facility, a professional with twenty-five years of experience in the field, demonstrated to the visitors how the state-of-the-art plant transforms unusable water to clean, healthy water for the city’s residents above the federally mandated requirements.
Postville Mayor Bob Penrod, whose family has been in Postville since the 1950’s, spoke to the rabbinic delegation about the central role that Agriprocessors plays in the city. Mayor Penrod praised the Rubashkin family’s contribution to the economic and social well-being of the town of 2,500, and explained that the plant was responsible for employing more than one-third of the labor force in the ethnically diverse city. The Mayor also spoke about how the May 12th raid at Agriprocessors had negatively impacted the financial well-being of Postville, and expressed hope that many Latino families would continue to consider making Postville their home.
When asked by the Rabbis about some of the Postville residents who have been vocal critics of the Agriprocessors plant, Mayor Penrod explained that for some people, change is daunting, and there is a desire among some to have the town revert back to the way it was in the 1950’s, before Postville became an ethnically diverse city.
“The Jewish community is extremely important to this town and we don’t want to see them leave,” said Mayor Penrod.
Pastor Gary Catterson of the Presbyterian Church of Postville and President of the city’s Food Bank told the Rabbis that although he heard the rumors in town about some of the reported abuses of workers, “he had never seen a shred of evidence of any such abuses.” Pastor Catterson told stories of how the Rubashkins regularly contribute to the Food Bank.
“We have had nothing but the best experience with the Rubashkin family,” said Pastor Catterson.
Ryan Regenold, a representative of Jacobson Staffing, the national firm which presently oversees and works with the plant’s human resources operation, explained to the Rabbis that his firm is using the federal government’s E-Verification system in order to make certain that illegal workers are not hired by Agriprocessors to work at the plant. Although using the E-Verification system is not mandatory, Regenold noted that it was being used at Agriprocessors to ensure that all immigration-related policies and procedures mandated by the federal government are strictly adhered to.
In addition, Regenold noted that Jacobson Staffing is utilizing recruiting managers who are bilingual in an attempt to preclude any possible miscommunication when dealing with potential workers during the hiring process.
The Rabbis inquired about media reports which centered on workers who were promised jobs and not hired, and others who were being underpaid. In response to these questions, Regenold explained that Jacobson Staffing advertises for workers all over the country, which is how the group of Somali workers discussed in these news stories found their way to Postville. Regenold said that the group merely answered a nationwide ad. “We never promised anyone a job,” said Regenold. “Some workers we hired, while others either had issues with immigration or were inappropriate for the jobs being advertised.” Those individuals who were not hired were given bus fare back to their city of origin.
Regenold also told the Rabbis that Agriprocessors is paying its new workers $10 an hour, which is well above Iowa’s minimum wage, which is currently $7.25 an hour. “The pay scale is the same for everyone,” he said. Regenold also said that as workers develop seniority, their pay scale increases considerably, and that many workers voluntarily work overtime, which pays 1 ½ times the normal hourly rate.
Trent Gorton, a Postville resident who serves as the Safety Director at the Agriprocessors plant, told the Rabbis that Agriprocessors is nearly 100% compliant with all of the requirements set forth by the United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). Any outstanding items are being addressed and will be resolved shortly. Generally, employers tend to fall short of complete compliance with OSHA requirements, and a compliance rate of almost 100% is extraordinary. Gorton said that “working for the Rubashkin family has been a treat,” and that he is “encouraged and inspired by what we are doing here.”
James Martin, a former United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Missouri who became Agriprocessors’ compliance officer, reported on some of the steps that have been taken at the plant in the area of worker relations. Martin told the Rabbis that a toll-free hotline had been put in place so that workers can confidentially report any problems or concerns that they may have. Information about the hotline is available for the workers throughout the plant in multiple languages. In addition, Martin said that Agriprocessors has hired former agents from OSHA, the Internal Revenue Service, and the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement, in order to maintain a level of excellence at the plant when it comes to government compliance.
“Safety is our number one priority, even ahead of production,” Martin said.
Several of the Rabbis also met with worker advocates affiliated with St. Bridget’s Church, which historically has been critical of the plant and its management. Although the entire group of Rabbis was initially scheduled to meet with the church representatives, many of the mission participants had to depart Postville in order to get to the airports and catch their flights home. Due to the importance of this meeting, four of the Rabbis did rearrange their travel plans and remained behind in Postville in order to attend the meeting.
Rabbi Lerner of the National Council of Young Israel, Rabbi David Eliezrie of the Rabbinical Council of Orange County, California, and two other Rabbis from the group met with Paul Rael, the church’s Director of Lay Ministry, and Esther Lopez, a social worker associated with the church, for more than an hour.
The church representatives cited specific cases of alleged worker mistreatment at Agriprocessors and spoke about their desire to investigate those claims. The Rabbis pledged to work with the representatives of the workers and the management at Agriprocessors to help facilitate their investigation and address the allegations. As of this moment, the Rabbis are awaiting documentation of the alleged abuses to workers of the Agriprocessors plant.
Rabbi Lerner noted that a great deal of the problems between the St. Bridget’s community and Agriprocessors was due to a lack of communication. Although the church representatives acknowledged that the Rubashkin family had made an overture to the church, to date no meetings have taken place and there has been no direct communication between the parties.
“Part of the problem here appears to be a lack of communication,” said Rabbi Lerner, “It became very evident that there needs to be a dialogue between the church and Agriprocessors so that the two sides can have an open and honest conversation about the issues at hand.”
The Rabbis suggested that St. Bridget’s Church and Agriprocessors create a system where representatives from each entity meet with one another once a week so that the two sides can establish a relationship and a means by which issues and concerns can be addressed in person, rather than through the media. The Rabbis discussed the proposal with the church representatives and the management at Agriprocessors, both of whom pledged to consider the proposal and get back to the Rabbis in short order.
“We are hoping that we can create a bridge of understanding between the Church representatives and the plant’s management,” said Rabbi Lerner, who noted that this is the first time that there has been a real effort to put the two groups together for the betterment of the community, “Together they can address the issues affecting the workers and actively seek solutions.”
After visiting the Agriprocessors plant first-hand, personally observing the operation, and speaking with the workers, the Rabbis marveled at how the media reports, which have traditionally placed a strong emphasis on statements from union officials and others who do not necessarily have personal knowledge of the situation, actually differ from the situation that they observed during their mission.
“The current situation at the Agriprocessors plant is diametrically opposed to the rumors and innuendos that we had heard before we got here,” said Rabbi Lerner, the Executive Vice President of the National Council of Young Israel, who organized the mission and led the group that came from fifteen cities in the United states and Canada. Rabbi Lerner’s sentiments were shared by the other members of the mission.
“We saw the reality, not stories told over from others,” explained one member of the delegation, “That reality was far different than the one that has portrayed in the press.”
“There were no limitations placed on us as we inspected the facility and no boundaries imposed during our visit – everything and everyone was fair game,” said Rabbi Lerner. “We discovered workers being treated equitably and receiving fair wages and benefits. We saw a state-of-the-art plant, a tremendous emphasis on safety, and excellent standards of Kashruth. While we have no personal knowledge of what may or may not have happened in the past, the Agriprocessors plant that we saw today is far different than what has been reported.”
Rabbi Lerner promised to continue to work hard “to set the record straight with the help of the two-dozen witnesses who joined him on the July 31st trip to Postville, Iowa. He explained that Agriprocessors was an important part of Jewish life in America, and noted that they are responsible for supplying 60% of glatt kosher beef and 40% of kosher poultry in the United States. In addition, Rabbi Lerner pointed out that Agriprocessors also supplies kosher meat and chicken to some of the more remote communities in the United States, which would have no access to kosher food but for the products they receive from the Agriprocessors plant.
“What we observed in Postville was a ‘Cadillac’ with top of the line machinery and a heavy emphasis on safety, security, and health,” said Rabbi Lerner. “Based on what we saw, this is a modern plant that is servicing an important need and working diligently to adhere to the highest workplace standards possible. What we saw and heard is how the Rubashkins and Agriprocessors are going well above and beyond the call of duty and the requirements of the law.”
The following is a list of the individuals who traveled to Postville, Iowa for last week’s mission:
Rabbi Shmuel Bloom, Agudath Israel of America, New York
Rabbi Naftali Burnstein, Young Israel of Greater Cleveland, Ohio
Mr. Yehuda Ceitlin, COL, Radio 10 (Flatbush), Bakehila (Israel)
Rabbi Edward Davis, Young Israel of Hollywood-Ft. Lauderdale, Florida and ORB Kashrut Commission
Rabbi Yochonon Donn, Hamodia Newspaper, Brooklyn, New York
Rabbi Moshe Elefant, Orthodox Union, New York
Rabbi David Eliezrie, Rabbinical Council of Orange County, California
Rabbi Chaim Goldberger, Congregation Knesseth Israel of Minneapolis, Minnesota
Rabbi Yair Hoffman, Five Towns Jewish Times, Lawrence, New York
Rabbi Yechiel Kalish, Agudath Israel of America, Chicago, Illinois
Rabbi Shauli Klein, Vaad Hakashrus of Dallas, Texas
Rabbi Pesach Lerner, National Council of Young Israel, New York
Rabbi Pinchos Lipschitz, Yated Ne’eman Newspaper, Monsey, New York
Mr. Menachem Lubinsky, Lubicom Marketing Consulting, New York
Rabbi Seth Mandel, Orthodox Union, New York
Rabbi Daniel Moscowitz, Chicago Rabbinical Council, Chicago, Illinois
Rabbi Chanoch Nelkin, Vaad Hatzdakus - Jewish Charity Commission - Toronto, Canada
Rabbi Shlomo Rybak, Congregation Adas Israel in Passaic New Jersey, Rabbinical Council of America
Rabbi Dovid Schochet, Rabbinical Council of Ontario/Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch, USA and Canada,
Rabbi Peretz Steinberg, Young Israel of Queens Valley, New York, and Vaad Halachah, Young Israel Council of Rabbis
Rabbi Gershon Tennenbaum, Rabbinical Alliance (Igud Harobbonim) of America, New York
Mr. Aaron Troodler, National Council of Young Israel, New York
Rabbi Yaakov Wasser, Young Israel of East Brunswick, New Jersey, and Rabbinical Council of America
Rabbi Asher Zeilingold, UMK Kosher, St. Paul, Minnesota
Rabbi Zvi Zuravin, Vaad Harabbanim of St. Louis, Missouri
Wow. This brings a tear to my eye. A happy one. Saddly no one from Ann Arbor, Detroit, SE Michigan or Michigan was there.
Arthur
Why don't you post this in the correct place?
Who was discussing this, here?
Anounymous 3:16am
Where pray tell is the correct place to post it? Tzig posted his latest blog on Rubashkin after I posted mine.In any case I don't see any terrible avleh in posting it where I did.
The answer to this Am Horetz (Index Producer)Edinsohn is simple,
the Chazon Ish writes in his letters that for him The Chofetz Chaim and Ezra Hasofer are in the same line and you can not differ with them whatsoever, and Reb Chaim Valozhiner writes in the hakdome of the Biur Hagro that the Gra teached his pupils that they can pasken different then the Shulchan Oruch.
So we Chasidim believe that our rebeim have all the rights of the above and whatever they say on any aspect Nigla or hashkafa is Tora Min Hashomaim as Chazal period and the dont need the approval of some index producer in Beithar or wherever you live.From most talmidie chachomim after the war the Lubavitcher knew quite well the Tora sources in Nigla,Hakira,etc.. I don't think that every morning we have to respond to a new psuedo talmid chochoms attack. Let the dog bark.
Anon 4.27pm
Why are attacking without reading the blog? Eidensohn is not attacking anybody, but I guess you can't handle that.
Btw 'Gra teached his pupils' Vos iz dos?? the correct way to say it would be 'The Gra TAUGHT his students'.
Stam azoi, you are probably misquoting the Chazon Ish because he himselfargues with the Chofetz Chaim...
Hey how about a name instead of 'anonymous', eh?
Oh, I forgot to ask.....Is an 'index producer' an am ho'oretz??
The Rebbe was very fond of 'indexes' btw.
It seems you are the real am hooretz
Tzig,
I think the real test of R'Eidensohns motives will be in the degree of access he grants, or denies, to those responding to the ignorant and unsubstantaited filth he has allowed to be posted vis-a-vis the Lubavitcher Rebbe in particular, and Chabad in general. If he grants equal access to lubavitchers presenting their points of view, then he is probably an objective / honest researcher. The proof will be in the pudding.... Stay tuned !
Tzig,
The following was taken from the Das Torah blog.Notice the prominence you are given.
"There seems to be a problem with some of those defending Chabad. I would suggest they read Rabbi Oliver's posting to see how one can communicate disagreement and raise intelligent points without being offensive. If the below posters are mainly concerned with ridiculing those who disagree with them - they should stick to blogs such as Hirschel Tzig's Circus Tent. This is an old complaint about Chabad - the arrogant in-your-face attitude of "why are you people so stupid and hateful that you don't recognize our spiritual superiority and loving kindness towards our fellow Jews?"
Faish
whatever anon wrote in the name of the CI is emes veyatziv
being that the rebbe was fond of indexes doesnt make them in to the godal hador to have a say on sensitive issues.
>>The answer to this Am Horetz (Index Producer)Edinsohn is simple,
the Chazon Ish writes in his letters that for him The Chofetz Chaim and Ezra Hasofer are in the same line and you can not differ with them whatsoever, and Reb Chaim Valozhiner writes in the hakdome of the Biur Hagro that the Gra teached his pupils that they can pasken different then the Shulchan Oruch.
This is a bit more ironic that you would even know. The Chazon Ish did not write what you claim he wrote, and R' Chaim Volozhiner did not write what you claimed he wrote, either!!! Do you even know where to look up the original sources?
Aside from that, after demonstrating such ignorance, how can you call someone else an am ho'oretz? Have you no shame?
Can some lubab tell me why Eidensohn is an 'am hooretz'??
Does compiling an index make you an 'am hooretz'??
I guess in the Tzig world it does.It also make you a 'hater'
9And it also shows you who the Tzig and his ilk are)
Mr. Rubin
I never said the man was an am Ho'Oretz, all I said was that he was a hater. I still say he's one.
Tzig,
You maintain Rav Eidinsohn is a hater.
Be honest: what exactly are YOU?
"what exactly are YOU?"
That's easy; I'm a victim of the hate.
With all due respect, Tzgi, I think you can look at yourself with a little less self-pity and a little more honesty and responsibility. I am not stating this ONLY with respect to you, by the way, but I believe that significant aspect of your problem is that you have plenty of hate in your own heart and that you see that hate in others.
"That's easy; I'm a victim of the hate."
Tzig, you are getting worse than Scottie. If you really mean these words, I'm afraid you need professional help ASAP... victim...
Faish /Rubin/Simon
Look in Chut Hamsholesh siman 9 and for follow up look in Aliyos Elijah page 56
Look in Ruach Elija (Lakewood 1954)that Reb aron kotler said that the Gra told Reb Chaim Valozhiner that he is allowed to differ with the Rema just with a Sevora but till the Rosh he needs Reiyas.
For CI I will get you another time. Evetough its a waste since you seem as ignorant as the index producer.
BTW Eidisohn is not a am haroetz because he is a index producer,Chas vesholem I know index producer that are Talmidie Chachomim . He is just ignorant because he is arogagant and he doesnt want to reliaze the Statement Bamokam Gedolim Al Taimod> Go back to the job that you are qualified.
Anon 9:59
By Simon you mean me? Anyway, are you sure you are in the right discussion? Those random quotes has zero relevance to "Faish /Rubin/Simon", whatever that means.
And for goodness sake, pick up a nick, there are 100s of anons here...
Shimon S
Ok, Tzig, the verdict is in.
Daniel Eidensohn is nothing more than a partisan rosho masquerading as an honest researcher. His carefully framed 'innocent questions' remind one of the "keitzad measrin es hateven" style research. I thought it fair to give the man a chance to show his colors, and he has. He'll print any and every unsubstantiated lie about Chabad and / or the Rebbe, but he will refuse to post simple comments or refutations to the lies he promotes. I seriously doubt whether a dishonest wannabe like Eidensohn will last very long in the blogsphere - too many people will see him for the dreck he is much sooner than he thinks. Some free advive to you, Dannyboy, go back to the yeshiva/hate factory you came from, the limelight is not for you.
S.Klimovitzer
You are a pathetic individual.
Eidenson has been on Micha Bergers' Areivim for years!(I know you probably have no idea what Areivim is)He is an honest intellectual and you should go back to your 8th grade classroom in Oholei Tora
>>Look in Chut Hamsholesh siman 9 and for follow up look in Aliyos Elijah page 56
Look in Ruach Elija (Lakewood 1954)that Reb aron kotler said that the Gra told Reb Chaim Valozhiner that he is allowed to differ with the Rema just with a Sevora but till the Rosh he needs Reiyas.
YOu ignorant shtick neveilah: You wrote that Rav Chaim Volozhiner maintained that one can argue with the Shulchan Aruch, now you are acknowledging that this meant only with respect to sevaros. And if you were not in the practice of calling others who know a lot more than a possul like yourself, you would know that this is done by all the nosei keilim, everywhere in the shulchan aruch.
You are accusing others like Rav Eidinsohn of arrogance where the only one who has exhibited arrogance (or ignorance) is you. You will not find that quote from the CI, he did not write that about the Chofetz Chaim.
Now go learn.
The biggest joke is that a crook like Tzig an anonymous poosteh keily is attacking a guy brave enough to sign his name and show his pic!!!
Moron
Anon
I should never have quoted the sources since a ferd bliebt a ferd
the last source from Reb Aron was just agav, but its a waste to argue with a ferd
To deal with horses you go to OTB
I think Klimowitzer might be right. Rabbi Eidenson pretends to be interested in a discussion, but he seems to avoid answering any tough question anybody asks him. Some guy 'Shloime' posted a few of R.Schachs letters where he says some really disgusting things, and all R.Eidenson could manage were some bobbemayses supposed to prove that R.Schach was really a nice guy !! He never even addressed the issue.
What's really sick about Eidenson is that while he claims that "I have attempted to be even handed in the presentation - and most of the feedback I have seen indicates that I have succeeded in keeping things well within acceptable bounds.", his site is full of the most disgusting anti-chabad propaganda, which he copies in full. But when someone posts real evidence of R.Schach's litany of hate, all he can do is make some sick excuse. This from a guy who seems obsessed with a sentence the Rebbe uttered 50 years ago, and which has been explained, albeit not to Eidensons liking. To quote him, "These issues are not ivory tower academics or theological hairsplitting. These are real concerns for frum yidden and the future of our people." That's right Rabbi Eidenson, when a man you hold up as a godol beyisroel and blindly justify, when such a man's hate is mindlessly drilled into thousands of innocent bnei teyreh, brainwashing them to hate other jews just as maran did, and all you can manage are some silly stories, then as you say "It doesn't advance their cause it makes it worse because the dissonance becomes stronger."
Why don't you take the advice of your fellow jihadist Shapiro (of the frumteens.com hatefest)and "I was advised by the great talmid chachom and baal machshava - HaRav Moshe Shapiro, shlita - to let the texts speak for themselves ..." Disavow R.Schachs hate, be honest, and we can have a dialogue. Afterall, Rabbi Eidenson, you don't really hate Chabad, do you ? You only post all the unsubstantiated lies about them because, let me guess- you LOVE us !!!
"To deal with horses you go to OTB"
The last I heard their out of business.
What does Rav Shach have to do with the issue of the definition of a rebbe as being 'atsmus umahus voz hot zech areingeshtelt in a guf'.
Stop with the red herrings already
Tzig
I really want to thank you for the address of this blog (You meant it in a negative way, still...).I've always loved reading Areivim discussions were you really get a bunch of intelligent and knowledgeable folks discussing issues.
I was happy to see the post about R'Yoel Kahn finally coming out against the crazier going ons in 770 such as 'making a pathway' for the Rebbe to enter the shul (something they really do , although the Rebbe was niftar 14 years ago)
Well...unfortunately R'Yoel was a big promoter of this movement but was man enough to admit to being wrong.
I've also realized that Lubavitchers are part of a different world.See, you Tzig, are still prepared to be included in a group were a large percentage is still talking about the Rebbe being alive.How can a normal person be in any way shape or form associated with such people?
>>I should never have quoted the sources since a ferd bliebt a ferd
the last source from Reb Aron was just agav, but its a waste to argue with a ferd
To deal with horses you go to OTB
So, basically, you made something up, have no sources to back yourself (so you lied about that, too) and your only resort is to call someone who obviously knows a lot more about this subject a ferd. Yeah, that will make you look legit!
Go learn, you shtick neveilah.
Daniel-
Leave it alone, and stop wasting your time. R.Eidenson obviously doesn't have answers for those questioning R.Shach's vile attacks, so what his site does is to try and create some perverse sense of 'balance' by posting a lot of filthy lies and slander about the Rebbe, and then leave the impression that there was some kind of 'eilu veilu'. It's actually a terrible rachmoness on all those confused litvishe who've been sold a bill-of-goods about R.Shach's supposed gadlus. They can't simply get up and admit that his legacy of hate was a mistake, so instead they try and:
a)Justify the sick and relentless sinah.
b)Create a counter-balance by fabricating 'stories' to show how he was really a nice kind old man, (who somehow said all these nasty things).
c)''Explain' that calling gedolim 'apikursim' and worse "doesn't really mean what it sounds like" !! Instead we're expected to believe with blind faith that there was some kind of deeper meaning (al drech hasod) in this rosh-yeshiva's rants! If anyone falls for that, do I ever have a bridge to sell you !!
d) Become willing victims of the circular logic that goes something like this; Since RS was such a godol, but he obviously wallowed in so much hateful filth, the explanation must be that 'hate is not really hate, and filth is really clean. It only LOOKS like hate and dirt to US!" Note some well-known blinded haters who are defending the hate on Eidenson's site. Rocket scientists like 'garnel ironheart' who would have us believe that R.Shach was some type of schizoid 'general', who checked all his ahavas-yisroel at the door on his way to the coronation - for the good of klal-yisroel noch !!!
(This 'garnel ironheart' is obviously cut from the same blind filthy cloth, as if he expects anyboby to take him seriously when his history of blind hate for Chabad is all over the internet.)
Come-on people, time for a new line. How much lipstick can you put on this pig ? We're not all idiots.
I know Rav Eidensohn really well, and have a lot of respect for him, so I'm really surprised by all his involvement in all this. On Areivim he sounds so much more logical, I guess he made a bit of a mistake here.
Well well, Izik ....
For an 'honest intellectual', Danny Eidensohn sure has difficulty answering simple questions, doesn't he ? What type of intellectual avoids hard questions by posting some fluffy stories ? Intellectual tackle the issues intellectually, not with unsubstantiated stories. When a real intellectual doesn't have an answer, they admit as much. Yet Danny lacks not only knowledge but emess as well. Where's the yosher, Dannyboy ? Why don't you admit that you've substituted blind faith in a hateful roshyeshiva for honest analysis of the issues ?
C'mon Danny, you can do better than that, a 'researcher' like you ?!!
LOL
I think Rabbi Eidensohn just repeats what he heard from other people. Don't believe everything he says, especially not what he wrote about the Choftz Chaim Zt'l and the Meshech Chochma Zt'l.
Not much of a 'researcher' then, is he ? Struggling to squeeze reality into his neat little hatebox. Give it up, Dannyboy, you'll never make Godol this way :-)
Klimowitzer
By attacking Eidensohn personally using derogatory names you are showing that you have no real argument.
But, you knew that anyway..
>izik said...
Klimowitzer
By attacking Eidensohn personally using derogatory names you are showing that you have no real argument.
But, you knew that anyway..
Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:41:00 PM>
My point exactly !
So by attacking R' Yoshe Ber, R' Steinsaltz & the Lubavitcher Rebbe as you say, 'personally using derogtory names', Rabbi Shach showed that he had no real argument.
Thank you for agreeing - I knew we really could see eye to eye on this !
Hey why don't you add 'rabbi' Goren to the list,eh?
What has R'Shach got to do with 'atsmus umahus vos hot zech areingeshtelt in a guf'?
Did he r'l say that?.
Nice try, Itzele,but red herrings don't really work. Last I checked Rabbi Shach, using the supreme authority vested in him by_ _ _? had merely defrocked Rabbi Goren, but hadn't declared him a 'heretic'. There were others whom this maniac did, r"l, brand 'heretic', but I felt a representative sample to be sufficient. Now did he have an argument or not - lets stay on topic here...?
And to answer your very pressing question:
Rabbi Shach had a neshomo which was a part of 'atzmus umehus' like any other Jew. Unfortunately, he turned into a very bad example of how wrong a yiddishe neshomo can go with a toxic mix of ignorance, arrogance, and manic hate.
If only his doctor had prescribed some lithium...
Rav Shach was vey quick in deciding the halacha,who is in the geder of Oiseh Maisei Amcho if not he would be bound by the Chofetz Chaim to keep his mouth should. Ironicaly he writes that he doesn"t delve in halacha even in simple halachas of tevilas keilim as he states in a letter to Rabbi Cohen,But being mafkir thousands of yidishe kinderlach yeriem Ushliemim Medadikim Behalach(besides sleeping in Sukka)he paskened with no problem and send his goons to harras who is not bowing to his whim.
Somebody called Rav Shach a 'maniac' and you allowed it through, eh Tzig??
Well,well.Wonder what R'Lesches thinks about that.Just wondering.
Gideon
If you bother to check you'll see that I allowed worse to get through about the Rebbe.
And stop with the Rabbi Lesches talk.
Why should I stop with the R'Lesches talk?
He is your rov, you have even boasted about how special he is.Am I not allowed to wonder about what he thinks about one of his congregants??
Gideon- I think what he's telling you is to grow up. Like, pretend you have an iq of at-least 75...
>>So by attacking R' Yoshe Ber, R' Steinsaltz & the Lubavitcher Rebbe as you say, 'personally using derogtory names', Rabbi Shach showed that he had no real argument.
Thank you for agreeing - I knew we really could see eye to eye on this !
The rebbe said much worse about yiddin--calling them messengers of the Satan!!! The rebbe was messed up and is paying dearly for it now.
anomymous 11:36 said"The rebbe said much worse about yiddin--calling them messengers of the Satan!!! The rebbe was messed up and is paying dearly for it now."
Here we go again.The "I heard" "someone told me" "it's well known" "it's somewhere on the internet" idiots are spouting there lunacy again.I challenge you to show explicitly where and when "the Rebbe called yidden messengers of the satan" As for being messed up,your projecting your own inadequacy onto the Rebbi and if anybody will pay for your above pearl of wisdom ,it will be you.
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