Wednesday, January 28, 2009

מי בטלית זעקל / בייטל

!א רבי קען דערנעמען א מענטש אין אסאך וועגן

Back in Chanukah of 5768 we discussed the six foot tall menorah of the Rebbe Reb Aron of Satmar and how I thought it hypocritical, or at least dishonest of a man that follows in the ways of his uncle the Baal Divrei Yoel and VaYoel Moshe to afford himself such luxuries if not for the fact that Chassidus and the Baal Shem Tov allow for it. At that time, many of you - my closest allies included - disagreed with me for different reasons. Some of you said that the whole concept as it pertains to Satmar has nothing to do with Chassidus, it's all cultural. Hungarians like flashy things so they buy themselves and for their Rebbes, but the point here is neither Baal Shem Tov nor Chassidus. That's the one of the great advantages of this blog, you teach and learn at the same, by virtue of the comments that come in from people like you. בא ללמד ונמצא למד.



Then, this morning, I open my inbox and I see that our good buddy, Mr. A Simple Jew בכבודו ובעצמו, sent me the link I bring above, where a Yid's wife is on the plane and she sees the Satmar Rebbe, Reb Aron, and his Tallis zekkel and she's totally enthralled. She's a MO Jew from California and she's never seen anything like it, so she calls her husband and tells him all about it. In her own world she sees this zekel as being "Corbusier," as in French designer, and is excited that a Chassidishe Rebbe would ever have something like that. Were it not for the fact that SR was sitting in first class, as all good Rebbes should and do, she would've gone over there and asked him all about it. And he probably would've obliged here by answering all her silly questions, this being Untervegens and all, where Rebbes and more relaxed and approachable. So we see; Rebbes and their seemingly luxurious artifacts can have that positive effect on less-observant Jews.

She'll probably go home and be a much better Jew from now on. First, her husband already mentioned that he'd like one too. He obviously doesn't know that Tallis zeklach such as this are reserved for Rebbishe types only, but what he doesn't know can't hurt him. Lots of newly religious or newly Chassidish overstep the so-called boundaries and wear clothing reserved for Rebbes, so this should be no different. Then he'll begin to grow a beard and peyos and be in general more frum and Chassidish, since some well-meaning frummie will ultimately see him and tell that either he gets rid of it or he begins to be more frum. Not wanting to give up his "Corbusier" he'll become more frum. Then his wife will begin to see what he's doing and she'll begin to wonder how she can claim to be married to him when they look so obviously different. Her look definitely doesn't match his, which now includes a shtraymel and vayse zokken, so she'll begin to be more Chassidish and frum too. And it all will be thanks to a Tallis zekel which non-believers like myself thought extravagant and unnecessary. A regular Joe's Tallis bag would never have done the trick.

56 comments:

Mottel said...

I can tell you this much: The cowhide tefillin bags are ugly.

Anonymous said...

MO people can get expensive zekelach and stuff without getting a shtriemel. You have not been to LA, Teaneck, Rdale or 5 Towns if you think otherwise.

Anonymous said...

lu tuches
lu dreck

yoshe kalb said...

Tzig, lucky you. I always thought they were made out of goat skin.
I personally find them revolting and totally unoriginal. For my own wedding I didn't ask for any of the usual presents like a Shass or a goldene Zeiger ( I had both already ), but only requested that my kalloh should embroider a tallis-beitel for me, like they used to do in di alte heim. Being an accomplished artist, she made for me the most beautiful tallis-beitel imaginable. Wherever I go, people ask me where they could get one like this. I strongly advise all kallohs to try embroyder one for their chosson.
Daloy uniformity!
BTW, an uncle of mine once told me, that he saw before WWII the shabbos candlesticks of the Rebbetzin of the Yid HaKodosh.It was a simple sheet of silver, the size of a playing card, a little bent on two sides with two holes to hold the candles. But how much light shone from them...

Anonymous said...

This has nothing to do with all the fancy things y'all complain' about

Would or should anybody complain on a beautifull aron hakodesh?

The cowhide thing for tefilin is just because its make of the same stuff of the teffilin inside.

נעשה מעור בהמה גסה

In the alte hiem the shochtim and sofrim got themselves a hide for the tefilin and then left a piece for the zekel.

Kalb is correct it used to be the honor of women to sew up a talis beitel for the choson.

And so was it their chazaka to sew the aron hakodesh paroches etc. I remember a chasidishe shull that had a women embroider a new one every yom tov.

they were so different then what is so routine in most shulls.

And if you visit a museum you might see a poroches you will see the name of the woman who embroidered it.

when will somebody get the guts and embroider a purple paroches are there only 2 colors available?

I remember reading an article on the fact that the industrial revolution changed that minhag, and between the 2 WW there were 100's of embroidering women working in factories in the famous town of Sasov producing atoros and talis zeklech etc.

Yosef 718

Anonymous said...

Why would a filthy individual like yourself care what tallis beitel the rebbe uses?
Your proverbial house is so clean?
Why did your rebbe need a brand new caddy every year?Oh, someone gave it to him.Same here

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The rebbe did not get a brand new Caddy every year. He got a new one after the old one was no longer operational. He had the car for many years.

Anonymous said...

The caddy comment did not deserve an answer. ahhhhh chitzpeh

Anonymous said...

Modern satmar/hungarian superstitions and culture are closer to the sphardim than with traditional chassidim

schneur said...

I doubt there were factories in the galitzianer town of Sassov. That town had a tradition of producing a special sort of knit which I believe was called Spanier (I may be wrong ) thus they produced atores etc.
Next in Lithuania nobody had these fancy things, as Litvishe Yidden neither did the lubavitcher rebbes.The last rebbe wore a simple overcoat a simple kapote , and his menorah was nothing fancy.
But I guess in America the eylem needs fancy things as not much else is left.
As someone else noted its not only Hassidim , the MO crowd also is very gawdy.

mulehouse said...

The Bray Of Fundie! (hopefully you are reading this and will respond)
I can't believe you visit and guest post to DovBear and still somehow comment on this silly infantile partisan rag-a-blog.
DovBear is a great open minded and rational thinker(a little to in love with Obama for my liking and a wee bit to the left.Still..)
This idiot is a poor writer, as close minded as they get and a totally kool-aided junkie for the Lubo-crap.
What gives?

jason said...

What is wrong with a beautifying a tashmish kedusha?
I don't understand millionares who build beautiful houses and when it comes to mitvas are cheap

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I guess, like you, he likes what I have to offer!

An Ailmesher said...

Some gedolim, such as the Chasam Sofer, lived bechovodik to enhance the kovod hatora and that is a valid mehalech. The litvishe were too poor to go that way.

While the Maharam of Lubavitch (why can't the last rebbe have a name like other Rebbes?) may have lived plainly, I believe that the Rayatz lived a richer life style. Am I correct, schneur.

And the Rebbe did get a new cadillac every 2 years and it was donated by someone. Nothing wrong with that. It's kovod hatora.

אברבנאל said...

בספה"ק איתא שעולם הקושיא ועולם הכפירה קרובים זה לזה, וזהו שאמרו חז"ל: המקשה עצמו לדעת יהיה בנדוי. יש ענין אצל הצדיקים ובפרט בדורינו להרבות בתענוגים, דהיינו, בית כהיכל שרים בנוי לתלפיות ומלא כל שכיות החמדה, ואם אין ידו משגת ניתן להשיגו על ידי טעות עכו"ם בבחי´ קיחה קיחה בשדה עפרון לקיים מה שנאמר ולא ראיתי צדיק נעזב וזרעו מבקש לחם

מעל"כ הזכיר ענין האשה שזכה להנות מנרתיקו של אותו צדיק שנטוה לשמה משערות הסוס ופרשת פרעה בבחי´ ראתה שפחה על הים מה שלא ראה יחזקאל בן בוזי בשעתו, אתמהה, על שלא בירכה "לסוסתי ברכבי פרעה דמיתיך". ועל רכב ישרא´ ופרשיו ביתו נאוה קודש ובחצרות צדיקים יפריחו עליהם הכתוב אומר הוי זנב לעריות ולא ראש לשואלים

shimon s said...

Maharam of Lubavitch? :-) Some ppl use Ramash.

Anonymous said...

mehut eim gdarft freigin, ir zent efsher a shoichet?!

out in the boondocks I know of a "rebbe" that was asked that exact question...

Anonymous said...

the talis bag set can be purchased at any judaica store its not expensive about 80 bucks for the set its fake

Anonymous said...

In the Ukraine most of the Chernobler kinder were leading rich lifestyles especially the Tolner. Eventough the Ziede Reb Nochem was against malchisdige hanhoge,Its not Hungarian its not galacianer,
But to the MO brother I would like to add that1 of this bietlech are still cheaper then a single Yankee or Mets game ticket or a flat screen TV

Anonymous said...

This new caddy every 2 yrs is an new one. I spent quite a bit of time at 770 and can promise you it is not true. Moreover, they once brought a new car, and the Rebbe refused to use it, saying sonai matonos yichye. They had to pull out the old one and it stayed that way until the histalkus.

Generally, the Heilige Rihzner is considered the first Admur to live in luxury, including white horses for his carriage. The zanzer lived in poverty. This was one of the reasons for his famous dispute with the Rihzner, esp. regarding the latter's dressing his children in Rebbishe clothes. The Zanzer's descendants (Bobov, Satmar, Klausenberg) seemed to have gone the Rihzner way. This may be due to the influence the Rihzner had after he escaped Russia and went to Yaas in Romania.

The only Chabad Rebbe who lived in luxury was the Maharash (son of the Tzemach Tzedek). His son, The Rashab eschewed materialism and was known for wearing a kasket on weekdays. The FR had some chernobyl blood thru the Chikaser, and did wear a samit (silk) hat during the week. He did not live a grand lifestyle at all, esp. considering the poverty in Russia in 1920 when the Rashab was nistalek. The Rebbe's wedding in warsaw was paid for by a chassid in EY, without whom the wedding would have been like the rashags, where they benched on beer bec. they couldn't afford the wine. The 3rd daughter's wedding (early 1930's) was also pretty simple. I don't know where people get this idea that the FR lived a grand lifestyle. I heard from oldder chassidim that in the USA, they sometimes hesistated before calling a doctor for the FR due to the poverty during the war years.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8;09
the Sanzer was a Chosid of the Ruzhiner he even quotes him in his sefer, The fight started by the 2nd generation

Anonymous said...

The Sanzer did not live in poverty, he gave a lot for Tzedaka, but I read in Gilyon Sanz of Israel a long article from some old newspaper that he lived in beautiful marble walled house.It wasn't Ruzhin but definitely no poverty.

Anonymous said...

anon 8:34
I'll look for the quote but I recall reading a journal that reprinted letters he wrote regarding a machlokes in ziditchoiv(?). He writes about about the Ruhziner's children wearing rabbisteve silk and he uses stong language against the rabistavas becoming yerushos. He points to the talmidim of the Besht and Maggid who set up the shops, not their children. This fact is well-known and he had major taanos on the Rihzner for "setting" up his children to become admurs.

The twist to this is that the bitterest machlokes today in chassidishe circles is in satmar, bobov and klausenberg, all his grandkids, and the machlokes is over which kid gets the pie.

anon 8:39
I've heard and read that the Sanzer lived in poverty, which would fit with the galicianer life at that time. Your source may be better, and if so, I stand corrected. Please post some maarei makom either way. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Anon8:56
RE Sanzer, he wrote a famous teshuva printed in Divrie Chaim that Rebivesteve is not a estate that you get byerusha vs. Rabunes that you can argue that its your biyerusha. This teshuva his a famous source in all the rebishe turf wars. He worked very hard to get for his sons rabbinical posts.And again all the letters against ruzhin started after the ruzhiner.

Anonymous said...

I once saw that the inyan of the rebbeshe talis baytel is a chashash of shaatnez.

The Hungarians went crazy with Shaatznes

Anonymous said...

אלו ואלו:

הוֹן וָעֹשֶׁר בְּבֵיתוֹ וְצִדְקָתוֹ עֹמֶדֶת לָעַד


פִּזַּר נָתַן לָאֶבְיוֹנִים צִדְקָתוֹ עֹמֶדֶת לָעַד

schneur said...

1. The Divre Chaim although earlier a Chasid of the Ruzhiner came out against the luxuries of the Ruzhiner children.This developed into a Chassidic World War .
2. How much money did the Lubavitcher rebbe or the Rashag leave in estate. Lets take the Rashag he left about $1 million. That after 50 years of being the chief fund raiser for the United Lubavitcher yeshiva and delaing with the gvirim of Brazil, South Africa and NYC and having his hand on the control panel. Thats about 20,000 annually. So tell me which other yeshiva director restrained himself thus.
The Rebbe himself left under $50,000.
Now lets compare that to another chashuve Ungarische rav in Wiliamsburg also childless the Rav of KAY who left at least $14 million in probate .
So lets stop talking about the Rebbe's car.

Anonymous said...

Tzeig!If you can so eloquently describe how a talis batil can turn a family to become fruumer, can you kindly make a post and describe how looking at ladies makes families less chasidish and use YOUR rebbe as an example

n said...

Tzig, you must have had a lubavitch revelation as of late. Very positive, possible, and entertaining.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

N

you need to stop by more often, then you'll see I'm not so bad after all.

Nice to have either way.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Lets take the Rashag he left about $1 million. That after 50 years of being the chief fund raiser for the United Lubavitcher yeshiva and delaing with the gvirim of Brazil, South Africa and NYC and having his hand on the control panel. Thats about 20,000 annually. So tell me which other yeshiva director restrained himself thus."

HU?!?! This is $20,000 a year on top of what he spent yearly. And gave his children.

daily New Cadillac said...

....and what the RaMaSh did with his money he spent millions to promote his image paid off very well, he got Hirshel as a follower ,that's more gratifying then a new Cadillac. EDITED
If the Tzig whould have stayed in Spinka he would been a little Ehrlicher,the switch was not to enhance his Yiras Shumiem ,it was just result of a sophisticated brainwashing Campaign.EDITED

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Twisty

the point is that after 50 years of fundraising he had very little for himself. Most other fundraisers had a much nicer nest egg to show.

Besides, the RaSHaG was in business for himself, so the 500k was probably the result of those ventures.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

daily New Cadillac

You don't know me, nor do you know my current level of Yiras Shomayim, nor do you know what my YS would've been had I stayed in Spinka. RIGHT?

Arthur said...

"This is $20,000 a year on top of what he spent yearly. And gave his children."
What children? He had only one son Barry and two granddaughters by adoption.Since he was estranged from Barry and had no shaychus whatsoever with his adoptive granddaughters I doubt very much that he gave anything to them.

Arthur said...

"RaMaSh did with his money he spent millions to promote his image paid off very well"
Apparently you most have some inside information that no one else is aware of.Can you please enlighten us to how the Rebbe "spent millions to promote his image".

Anonymous said...

Arthur!
The marketing and the promotion of the RaMaSh is an integral part of every related and unrelated chabad entity, especially His secretariat, the bookkeeping will not reflect it, but the actions speak volumes,and more inches is dedicated to promote HIM then the hashems allmighty name ,go count for yourself
so here is your inside information,

Nusach Beis Hurav said...

Arthur:
"Since he was estranged from Barry"
That's what you were told, the fact is that he was by the chasana of his adopted GD, and was very close to barry but was forced to hide his relationship with his son ahavas yisroel Nusach Beis Hurav

LUBAB said...

"the point is that after 50 years of fundraising he had very little for himself. Most other fundraisers had a much nicer nest egg to show."

Words of a silly Goat.Then Goat say the following:

"You don't know me, nor do you know my current level of Yiras Shomayim, nor do you know what my YS would've been had I stayed in Spinka. RIGHT?"

Goat *knows* what *other* fundraisers make.How so? Yet this appendage gets angry when someone else *knows* stuff about him.Circular Lubab logic at its best!

lubab said...

"What children? He had only one son Barry and two granddaughters by adoption.Since he was estranged from Barry and had no shaychus whatsoever with his adoptive granddaughters I doubt very much that he gave anything to them."

Hey Arthur!
Where have you been?
We've missed you partisan lies badly.
Rasha'g had no shaychus with his son??Some kool-aid they give you in Lubab land!
I can't believe that a senior citizen still talks like a kid in yeshiva

Anonymous said...

"Di vos vaisen reden nisht un di vos reidin vaisin night" (Those that know don't talk, and those that talk don't know)
The Rashag's personal money was from some shrewd investing he did when he came with the FR to the USA in 1929, right around the time of the crash. He invested well, and this nest egg was worth 1 million at this petirah in 1989. He got a salary from the yeshiva, free housing in 770, but he did not live a grand lifestyle at all. I spent time with him in the later years, and he lived a very frugal lifestyle. I can give you stories of how he appreciated someone saving a buck here and there.

Arthur said...

"We've missed you partisan lies badly.
Rasha'g had no shaychus with his son??Some kool-aid they give you in Lubab land!
I can't believe that a senior citizen still talks like a kid in yeshiva"
Your repetitive drivel has become somewhat boring.I never said that he had no shychus with Barry.I used the word "estranged", especially so in the latter years in his life.
"That's what you were told, the fact is that he was by the chasana of his adopted GD, and was very close to barry but was forced to hide his relationship with his son"
He may have attended the wedding of his adoptive granddaughter but there was no ongoing relationship with either of them.As to barry the relationship between him and Rashag was at the most tenuous.I know this not because I "was told".
I know this because of my relationship to someone who was very close to Bais Rebbe rather then so called "knowledgeable gossip".
"The marketing and the promotion of the RaMaSh is an integral part of every related and unrelated chabad entity, especially His secretariat, the bookkeeping will not reflect it, but the actions speak volumes,and more inches is dedicated to promote HIM then the hashems allmighty name ,go count for yourself."
Nothing could be further from the truth.I had a personal situation where a mikvah in a certain city in which I resided in,was posul.I was offered a rabbonus shtella there and at a yechidus I asked the Rebbe whether I should accept it.The Rebbe replied on the stipulation that the mikvah is repaired and if it's a question of money he would fund it.The Rebbe then went on to say that under no circumstance should I reveal that he is the source of this funding.It was only after the Rebbes ptirah that I took the liberty to reveal this.I know of many such instances where the Rebbe funded non Lubavitch tzedokah situations both covertly and overtly.Some of the above statements that the Rebbe used millions of dollars to promote himself, is just another libel that the haters have come up with to bash the Rebbe. As is well known his and the Rebbitzens personal lives was one of the highest forms of asceticism.

The Bray of Fundie said...

The Bray Of Fundie! (hopefully you are reading this and will respond)
I can't believe you visit and guest post to DovBear and still somehow comment on this silly infantile partisan rag-a-blog. yada yada


I am a Fundie. This is my narural habitat. I go to Beary to stir up trouble and be contrarian.

SatmarTC said...

tzig

how much cost the "Corbusier" ?

mib said...

schneur,
although the divrei chaim revered and quoted the ruzhiner i don't think he was ever his 'chosid'.
the sanzer was a ropschitzer chosid, first by r' naftali zvi and later by r' usher'l.

Anonymous said...

now, someone please comment of his shoes. whats next? you guys have nothing better to discuss.
Each and every single Rebbe have a טלית בייטל of this fabric or similar, what's wrong? what's interesting? you guys make a יש מאין
talk about his גאונות which is a חידוש talk about normal stuff.

nahare upashte said...

one of the zihdacoiver rebbes zt"l told me that the tales/tfiln beitl is made fun kelbels hoit to mechaper on chet hoeigel

the tsap said...

Dr. Dee Says:
Reply to #2 Show Quote
Anonymous Says:

“ If Chabad stands out because they don't turn on lights or drive on shabbos, then what does that say about the other "Orthodox" community? ”

I have stayed for a short time in Florence but witnessed the most amazing behaviour in the Jewish community there. The official Rabbi is a gentleman and scholar, but he practices a gentle and non-aggressive approach to a very middle of the road yiddishkeit. He is a good, helpful person who relates well on a one to one basis with the local Jewish population. They are VERY far from actuallly practicing anything approaching Orthodoxy and he has, unfortunatly little effect on them--I was there during selochos and we could not get a minion AT ALL!!!! Part of the problem is Chabad. They behave like animals, shouting abuse, schleping tourists out of the Kosher cafe telling them that it is tref--I witnessed this on 2 occassions and posting abusive notices on the windows of the cafe which is the building where the Rov lives. They make no effort to help the community in a costrutive way to which they can relate. Also the local Chabadnicks were dirty and slovenly in apperance, very off putting. While I feel a greater effort should be made by the local Rabbi, there is not a lot he can do in the present circumstances, but they would certainly be better off sans Chabad!
Reply »

Anonymous said...

The Tzap
It it is a good smear job, I was more then once once there and I and many friends have great respect for Chabad

Anonymous said...

MIB
His Rebbe Muvhak was the Ropshitzer but he also visited Belz, Zidichov And Ruzhin

Anonymous said...

who is the rabbi that sits between the Tenker and Malkiel Kotler? a new face on the block

Anonymous said...

anon Thursday, January 29, 2009 12:39:00AM

i'm anon 8:56 and thanks for setting the record straight re the Tzanzer and Rhizin. It is generally accepted that the Tzanzer considered the Roshpitzer to be his Rebbe. He may have gone to the Rhizner, but his Rebbe and mentor is R' Nafotli Roshpitzer, a talmid of the Chozeh.

Anonymous said...

Anon
I think that the Sanzer Rov was for a short period in Lublin too.

Anonymous said...

Skimt mich tzim lachen because I read the original blog where the author writes about this. Ingantzen nisht vi di meints. His name is Robert J. Avrech. He's a hollywood producer who lost a son and writes a blog you might enjoy reading.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

6 weeks late you tell me this?

I know about Avrech and his blog and his books about Indians and Jewish girls.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I followed a link to your website, found it interesting, and starting going through the whole thing including archives.