Sunday, January 11, 2009

Appearances....


"אם ננעלו דלתי נדיבים דלתי מרום לא ננעלו"

Schneur's amusing comments about the shock on the faces of those who were taught to despise Rav Kook, when they come to the library and actually see his picture, complete with the Spodik, untrimmed beard and peyos, amused me. We can differentiate between the two more zealous factions in Yiddishkeit today, the Yeshivishe and the Hungarians. (the Israeli so-called "perushim" as far as this conversation is concerned are an enigma and will be not be included in this discussion.) The Hungarians have a hard time seeing anybody with yiddishe simonim as not good; they immediately assume that someone they call an "Apikores" looked like a goy. Recently - among the Satmorim at least - they've taken that to a new level, where even Rebbes with peyos to the floor and veise bekitshes can be called "kofrim" wholesale, but when push comes to shove, when you confront them, they'll admit that s'iz nisht mamesh azoi. They'll have a hard time telling you that they wouldn't eat in a Gerrer Chossid's house - or Rav Elyashiv's for that matter - because he votes in the Israeli elections or worked for the rabbanut.


.......רקוד מצוה" - 70 שנה אחרי"

Then take these two pictures here and tell me what you think. Here we have two of the purest creations - Teimene Yidden with the original levush still intact, "antenna" and all. A Satmarer would salivate at the sight - maybe I would too. These folks managed not to be coerced into dropping their yiddishkeit in Israel, despite what the Tziyonim tried to do to them. I guess the Tziyonim were happy that they took their kids, or maybe these people made aliya pre-State days. Anyway, it seems like these pure and holy people had no problem dancing together in public, with a strange man banging on the oil can/drum taking it all in! Is THIS what they did for 2,000 years in the deserts of Yemen while we thought they were as pure as the wind-driven snow just because they had Simonim?! Can you imagine a Yerushalayimer Yid dancing with his wife like that in public while other strange men supplied the musical accompaniment? Of course you can't, so why do they get away with it just because they say Ivri funny and didn't accept the cherem deRabeinu Gershom?!


מסעודה, רקדנו מספיק היום, באי נכנס הביתה

42 comments:

Mottel said...

The second image says nothing -he's helping an elderly lady, in this case his wife, walk . . . which Posek would have problem with that when push comes to shove?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you mean the third. In the second they're doing Mitzvah Tantz.

This is not a question of getting a heter.....

Mottel said...

Yes, the third.
It's not an issue of heter - even if it seems strange by our standards, there is nothing wrong with the action . . . if anything, there is something wrong with us for perverting innocence.
As to the dancing . . .

Anonymous said...

The point you are making shows that you missed the point totally, per the usual.

If you do something which is consistent with halacha and mesora - fine !!!!

No satmarer will tell you off for not having long peyes because that was no chabad, not before the war or after.

The temanim kept their mesora, not change it for convenience or to grow numbers.....if they had a 2,000 year mesora to do that...great !!!

The problem is where you have a beautiful mesora and throw it in the garbage.

Why were so many authentic chabad minhagim changed on arrival in America?

What happened to America is nisht andersh ????

How many balabatim other than the famous names thrown around ever learnt chassidus in pre tomchei temimim Lubavitch ?

I at recently at the house of an Alte chasid by any definition. He lamented that chabad today is nothing like the chabad of Europe, not in the ways that you think, but in basic minhagei chabad. Chabad has become more chagas with mindless meshichism, dancing and drinking vodka before being able to read aleph beis.

Yest they do great kiruv, but you must admit it came at the cost of the heart of pre-America chabad. It is now modern orthodox with a bren for learning chasidus.

Anonymous said...

This whole simonim of the Yemeni Jews was sort of like the Yellow star in Germany to diffrentiate between the Jew and the Muslim,it was a minhag forced on them

Isaac Balbin said...

It's a Mitzvah Tantz at a Chassuneh.

It's actually the Mezinke Oisgegeyben :-)

yehupitz said...

They're like 200 years old!

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Chabad has become more chagas with mindless meshichism, dancing and drinking vodka before being able to read aleph beis.

It's modern orthodox with a bren for learning chassidus.


I have a number of problems with that.
1) Nu, so what if it was? The absence of levush makes them goyim? (I'm talking about the ones who aren't haskala in a kipah sruga)
2) Part of the identity of MO is that we can't have a bren for learning chasidus because when we learn we're litvaks (I guess I left the fold because I find Tanya interesting)
3) You imply that my kreiz is a pack of drunks.
4) If chabad really was MO Tzig would be outraged by these pictures for an entirely different reason more along the lines of Mottel's.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

speak to an old Belzer or Gerrer or Vizhnitzer or any other serious chassidus and see what they say.

Arthur said...

Why Gaza? Heres why and it's very relevant.

http://www.israel-wat.com/pps/israeli-children.pps

Shmuel Grainom said...

oy, pictures the mishpacha rag would hava had to censor

satmer and proud said...

schneur dosent know what he is talking about one of the tenements that each child is indoctrinated in satmer that "even you have a full beard and spodik like....you can still be an apikores it must have been some one who did not go to satmer

baalbatish said...

one of the tenements that each child is indoctrinated in satmer
-------------------------------

Where are those "tenements"? Lower East Side? Williamsburgh? Let's find out and save those kids from being indoctrinated into the "satmer" cult.

Catch 22 said...

ANON on Monday, January 12, 2009 2:46:00 Writes
"Hastores Ponim didnt start today, it was in Spain and Tach vetat and all pogroms in the Ukraine, You can not enforce on Klal Yisroel a midrash that is not in standard halacha you can keep it for your kehila as a minhag hamokem"

The point of Hastures Punim was made to a previous commenter who was brainwashed zillion times that there is more chances to win in Gaza because of the Pusok "Etetz Asher Eini Hasem Elokacu Doireish Oso Tumid
The facts are Otherwise:
1)Hashem said you will loose EY if you sin.
2)Hashem wants you to suffer in Gulles without your army to protect you, all other forms of Hastures Punim are interchangeable except to govern yourself, until:
3)the coming of meshiach
The medrash that aggravates you is the punishment for having your own army and fighting with...(yes, They are terrorist)is something i don't want type out on my keyboard,but be aware the Zionist state wont disappear because someones weakness or strongness,it will disappear because Hashems plan is otherwise ,Because its Havores Pi Hashem ,Vehu Loi Sitsloch

Chnyock said...

hey you actually graduated from scraping the botom of the barrel! this stuff is good, the last 2 posts anyways. . .

Mottel said...

Anon: 1:37 you make no sense.


"No satmarer will tell you off for not having long peyes because that was no chabad, not before the war or after."
There were peyos amongst many Lubavitcher Chassidim - look no further then the Freidiker Rebbe.


"Why were so many authentic chabad minhagim changed on arrival in America?"
Give me one as an example . . .



"I at recently at the house of an Alte chasid by any definition. He lamented that chabad today is nothing like the chabad of Europe, not in the ways that you think, but in basic minhagei chabad. Chabad has become more chagas with mindless meshichism, dancing and drinking vodka before being able to read aleph beis."
There are plenty that are darn close to the old lubavitch - yeridas hadoros permitting . . . Lunatics aside (which can be found everywhere) B"H Lubavitch Lebt.

antiantiantitzemach said...

Tzig,

Did you not notice that these two people are alone in the midst of nowhere, not a single person is in sight anywhere (besides for a few family members*)?!

Even the "drummer" is not facing them in one of the pitures.

Aderabah, this picture is the height of tznius!


*Yes, those men are family members. These are famous pictures. They were in a UK jewish publication about a year ago. All these people are members of one family.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

antiantianti:

איך פארגין זיי מיט'ן גאנצען הארץ

family as in second cousins? brothers?

would you dance with your wife in front of your brothers and cousins?

well, if you have a Mitzvah tantz maybe you do...........

oso v'es b'no said...

although it is known as mitzvah "tantz" shuffling of chassans feet whole kallah stares at floor is not exactly dancing.

Anonymous said...

Catch 22
Would you say on your family that all will get cancer because they spoke Loshun hora? when did you people loose all Yidish sensibilities that Kneseth yisroel is your mishpacha you don't say from your mouth any curses

Chnyock said...

kook books are as well read as the the rebbe shlitas outside of his immediate circle. simply put, un-used. period.

I'm harav dome lmalach.... bakesh torah mipihu..... v'im lav, al tivakesh.

certainly if he has dimyonos of... kedushas kadur regel etc..

its called choshech mitoch oifel.

Joe in Australia said...

Chabad has become more chagas with mindless meshichism, dancing and drinking vodka before being able to read aleph beis.

Me, I'm surprised by the focus on moifes stories. My understanding is that these used to be looked down on by Chabad - someone good at retelling stories, please repeat the one with the punchline "The miracle is that I'm still a chossid ...". Now it's all miracle this, miracle that, stuck a letter in the Igros and won a million dollars.

The other thing is that there is absolutely no attention paid to emotional restraint, moach sholit al halev. People behave as though you are only authentic if you're jumping up and down and hollering. I just can't understand it.

Anonymous said...

To all you cool heads
The Rebbe writes in a letter to his FIL begging him to get involved in Paylishe mofsim, since all logic will not stop the train of the new kefira that was rampant then, and so is today. If you are that cool just take a Kuntres Hispailous of the Mitteler Rebbe, and let another yid revel in a geshmake moifes of the Rebbe

Anonymous said...

There is a story told of a chusid who saw the satmar rav giving kovod to the clean shaven Mike Tress and stunned he asked the rebbe hes clean shaven?? The rebbe answered him when you come up to shmayim their going too say "burd burd avoo iz di yid" and when he comes up to shmayim they will say "yid yid avoo iz di burd".

Anonymous said...

If you push I will show the source but it is a clear halacha in shuchan aruch that husband and wife are asur to show such a affection in public.

So on the face of it it is not appropriate.

But most Yemenite as most Polishe and ookrainisher litvisher baal agooleh types behaved in an exact same way.

the Idea that a guy with boord and payes behaves piously according to halacha is a new thing because most am haraatzim don't wear traditional clothes and payes.

The world as we knew it was wiped clean with the holocaust and only the real frum was reconstituted to the traditional life style. Stam yidden traditionaly dressed, who behave this way are not to be found.

So this Yemenite a 'pushete yid' in the classical sense.

As the Gemara says a wife is not allowed to 'לעיין בראשיה" of her husband while they can be observed. She cannot clean the nits out of his hair in public. and for sure not conduct a dance

Yosef 718

On this Tzig is right, we tend to forgive those who act and look like us. This even extends to printed material. The same Satmar chasid who is allergic to new seforim that are not traditionaly looking as zionistic.

but the Vilna shas with all its problamitic contributors is OK.

mee too said...

"If you push I will show the source but it is a clear halacha in shuchan aruch that husband and wife are asur to show such a affection in public."

In other words you have no idea where such a thing is stated.

schneur said...

Chitzoniyus is everything today, even among non Satmarer. The yeshiva world has its own version which is completely yesh maayin legabe east Europe. Although I criticize Lubavitch for new cloting styles,(because I think the youth has gone overboard) I understand that Chaad was never into levush at least not in the last 80 years.
I was in a BP bookstore and bought an old copy of a sefer by the Maharitz Chayes (a so called Maskil and enemy of Chasidim and Rav of Zolkeva) who had a beard , long peyos a spodik and strukes , when the baalhabos looked at what i wished to buy he a Cahsid screamed " dos is geven der maharitz chayes ?!?"
As Rabbi Meyer Berlin wrote there were Yidden mit di shmene begodim in Galicia who were greyse apikorsim and clean shaven Jews in Lita who were opkehitene Yidden.
Good post Yasher keyach !

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I never realized he was considered a maskil. My rebbi used to refer me to his sefarim a lot.

schneur said...

affection in public by married couples. And in private they showed it ?? My late parents never touched each other in in the home not at least while the kids were around, and most other East European Jews behaved the same way ! Certainly no Chassiidc or Litvishe Yid would publically (or even in the home)exhibit affection to his wife !

Friendly Anonymous said...

Modeh,

I refer you to Rav Hutner's daughter's doctoral thesis at Columbia. Interesting reading, as such things go.

Anonymous said...

Modeh Bemiktzas
By Galiciyaner Chassidim he was blacklisted, since he fought Reb Sholem Belzer and Reb Hirshel Zidichover,the Chasam Sofer had a strange relationship with him as you can see in the last Teshuva in Orach Chaim

shimon s said...

Here is the full PhD thesis:

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/david-chajes.pdf

schneur said...

About the Maharitz see also the fine Hebrew biography by Rabbi Dr. Meir Herskovics which was recently republished in Jerusalem.
Its interesting to note that many daughters of Roshe yeshiva received Ph.D degrees Rebbetzin David and Rebbetzin Schwartzman come to mind. Dr. Jean Joffen was the wife of a rosh yeshiva. Prof. Elisheva Carlebach is the wife and daughter of a rosh yeshiva. Rebbetzin Farbstein in Israel also comes to mind. Are there still others ? Is a rosh yeshiva's daughter permitted to go to university, are charedi Yeshiva women allowed to study at the university graduate level ? are they permitted to study Chachmas Israel -Wissenschaft des Judentums ?

Otvocker said...

Nearly every satmarer knows that R Kook had a beard and spodik. There is a famous saying how Herzl put a beard on Zionism and R Kook added a spodik. The Gerer Rebbe who respected him wrote that he says on muttar - assur and tamei - tahor. And teh Gerer was no Satmar chasid

So I really dont know what Schneur is on about - except for his usual anti-kanoim diatribe!

Shmuel Grainom said...

every ban teyre has seen r' elchonons letter in which he writes that if he was able he would put kook in nidui

kovetz maamorim

brisker said...

גרונם

and that's why Reb Elchonon was always ignored - sorry to be so harsh - when it came to decisions at the Kenesiah Gedolahs. He was too extreme.

Chnyock said...

kruma brisker
the chofetz chaim who at the first knessiah gedola defended kook eventually became fed up with him as well. kook was a good part of the reason the chofetz chaim didn't move. vd"l

Anonymous said...

Schneur
thousands of Williamsburg, Boro Park and Lakewood young girls and women go thru Touro college for Degrees in Special Ed, many Benai Torah can stay in Kolel because of these professional jobs.
Btw, Rav Shachs wife was a Aptieker, did she have a college degree?

Anonymous said...

Yossel 718
the Rambam in Hilchos Deios 5-7 writes that you shouldn't talk even with your wife on the street

Mottel said...

Anon 8:48 The Rambam also writes that ones wife should stay in the house, sitting in the corner and only going out once a month . . .

Anonymous said...

Chynyok
Who are your sources that the Chofetz Chaim was fed up with Rav Kook? Der Yid, Der Blatt, Shloma lorencz VD"L

Anonymous said...

Mottel
You are right on that, but that was considered more a local cultural thing, but talking to a women n the street is brought down by many non Sephardic Poskim Leisur