Tuesday, January 6, 2009

Deciphering Der Yid code (Part 1)

"Munkacz, Hungary, 1939"

(Although several weeks after the fact maybe we can use this editorial as proof of the general approach to issues in that camp and as a Yiddish lesson as well....)

It seems like decades of education and mingling is not enough for me; I have yet to REALLY understand what the Hogeh De'os at Der Yid really mean to say when they write their editorials. All those years speaking only that "dialect" of yiddish and - if I may say so myself - excelling at reading, writing and conversation did nothing for me as far as the esoteric and complicated meanings of the "Organ of Orthodox Jewry" go. This despite most of my melamdim religiously reading that publication and belonging to the groups supposedly represented by that Organ, and then eagerly sharing that information with their innocent students. So I'm not sure what it is I'm missing here, but apparently I am! Let's read it together and I'll give you my opinion of what I read and what I as a reader thought their intention was, and you'll correct me where you think I went wrong, shall we? We'll do it slowly so that all of us can understand, even the non-Hungarians among you....

The article begins by lecturing us not totally in the know of Tzionistishe Historye that there was a time - during the British Mandate - when the Zionist establishment was to become the sole representative body for the Jews in Palestine. "Erliche Yidden" - as they like to call them - finally achieved - after much hishtadlus - that they could opt out of the Zionist Kehillah if they so pleased by signing a declaration. A "יציאה דאקיומענט" it was called. It stated that they had no shaychis to that congregation, although it isn't clear to which congregation they DID belong... Gedolei Yisroel everywhere "forced" frum Jews to get that yetziah document from the English, and that was the greatest form of opposition to the Zionists at that time. The article says that many Jews, even while employed by the Tziyonim, kept that yetziah paper with them, despite earning their livelihood from those which they said they opposed... The right to exclude oneself ended in 1953 (I don't get that part, do all Jews officially belong to the "Zionist entity" now?) But this week (the week of the Mumbai attacks) we learned that the battle to resign from membership in the Zionist entity goes on, and not only for the living, but also for those who left this world, and despite their known opposition to the Zionist ideal.

Okay, nice history lesson there, coupled with some jabs at the Israelis, which is to be expected. Nothing terrible, though. Inappropriate as an editorial, yes, but again, to be expected.

Der Yid Continues: The tragedy at the Chabad House bears more discussion. When a simple Jew, a father of eight children would die in an accident that in itself would be a terrible tragedy and would require us to examine our personal lives and make the necessary corrections. A kashrus mashgiach is a shliach tzibbur - a messenger for all of us - and if the tragedy happens with a mashgiach, one who makes sure that we have kosher food to eat, then the death is אחד מן החבורה, one of our group, which requires even more introspection and teshuvah. The whole chaburah=group then needs to do a cheshbon HaNefesh and see where they've erred. Add to that when it happens to a Derhoybene Yid, ah Bnon Shel Kdoshim, then we REALLY need to worry, because the tragedy becomes exponentially greater.... אמר הצאפ: Where do we see that a Bnon Shel Kedoshim has special status when it comes to tragedy? Notice that neither one of the others murdered in Mumbai deserve even an honorable mention, all they say is דער אומגעקומענער, in singular term. I guess only Reb Leibish was killed in Mumbai as far as they're concerned? No. When it suits them later on in the editorial they do mention that others were killed, but only to prove their heartless, idiotic point, not to c"v mourn.

המשך יבא בעז"ה


Anonymous said...

Hey Goat Face!
We so don't care about your dumb obsessions with Der Yids editorials.
Do you live such an empty life that you have to take apart an editorial that hardly anybody reads.
Get a life, freak.

Der Shygetz said...


The name Der Shygetz is meant to be a parody of Der Yid.

I don't think Der Yid represents the view on the Satmar "street" anymore, even among farbrente "Zalis".

Anonymous said...

Tzig. From 1964-1996 I read DER YID weekly and faithfully. Not that I was a follower of that shitah.
Then I realized that I was wasting valuable time on nonsense.All I picked up was rabbonishce lashon which Reb Sandor Deutsch excelled in, but once he left us , that too is gone. And I gave it up and now just quickly look at it and basically only read the articles about minhogim by Babad and Reb Yona Landau's pieces about Chassidic history.
The hashkofa pieces are a complete waste of time. Now with more papers ,(Blatt) one can waste even more time.Many Satmarer I know are not much different than other Chasidim with regards to Isael, they support it, others are still brain washed. Usually it takes a trip to israel to clear their brains.I love the look on young Satmar tweens when they come to our library and find a book by their chief enemy the Rav hoRoshi A.I. Kuk and they see his beard, peyos,zaidene chalat and kolpeck. As one pre bar Mitzva kid said to me "Dos is geven Kuk ?" After all he was known to wear shorts and a kova tembol.
May I suggest the Machne hacharedi as an alternative the pieces by Rabbis Friedman, Lustigman nad Stein weekly are malea vegadush. The articles on Galicianer and Hungarian gedolim are interesting.Even recent articles in Englsih about the 2nd and 3rd Chabad rebbes were excellent pieces. There are also other good stuff. Truth be told skip Eichler's nonsense.
My point --- life is short and there is much to cover lots of seforim, lots of Jewish religious books lots of Chachmas Israel, lots of important secular books important films to view, classical music to listen to why waste your time on DER YID (as the old magidim used to say I am talking to myself here).

Anonymous said...

I share Schneurs sentiments. Except I don't think most Satmar's support Israel per se.

If there is one thing Reb Yoilish succeeded (altohgh it doesn't satisfy the kano'im) it is that all chareidim do not have any sort of Nationalistic feelings toward Israel.

Yes if being pro-Israel means to defend her right for security of her citizens then yes. But being pro security of the people of Mexico (which I am and so is everybody else) does that make me 'pro Mexico'?

Nothing about the Israel flag and anthem stirs me or our friends the Satmars.

I also think that Tzig is on to something that I often find disturbing in the 'heimishe' community.

While it is understandable to feel pain and be more affected by the tragedies of people who are close to you; by that I mean your family, the people who daven in the same shul as yours, your neighbors, and even your kriez.

But as a Yid you ask and feel that there something unsettling about being so self centered. We know in our hearts there should not be a difference, at least when we are talking about יראים ושלמים

It is the essential lesson of מששה ידי טובעים בים ואתם אומרים שירה Even our enemies we should consider their pain.

So to expression in such a callous way as in the article, is repulsive on a human level and particularly on a Jewish level.

While Der Yid now is just a shadow of it (once) self. It does reflect a certain feeling that is prevalent among more of us, than we would like to admit.

Yosef 718

P.S what did the shnorer who pestered me in middle of davening that I should give tzedaka for a "heimishe choson".

Can someone define to me in the context of 'Shomer Shabbos Shul in Boro Park' what Heimish means?

And after explaining it, please explain why the collector feels that saying 'heimish' in the short pitch to 100''s of mispallelim, will bring him better results.

Is a chabad choson a 'heimishe' choson?

Does it prove my point?

Anonymous said...

When someone asks why does hershel care whats written in der yid against zionisim
The answer is...
Chabad by contract and Tzeig by extension are paid emissaries for the Zionist state to promote its legitimacy among the frum community.
Shazar made a good investment by pumping money to Lubavitcher enterprises ,and has proven all his colleagues in the government wrong,
his claim that the Rebbe is more then a closet Zionist but can become a full fledged partner in the Zionist agenda was a huge success,better than the Mizrachi alliance,

Anonymous said...

according to most poskim any jew that was killed "because" he was a Jew is called a Kudosh that defines the recent Hurog in Yemmen ,
But... a jew that was killed for other reasons for instance the Harugay Mumbai, that the recent intelligence transcripts between the Roitschem prove that their goal was to damage Indian trade, and the chabad House was an important gathering place (Kretshma) for Israeli and Jewish merchants so killing its inhabitants and the people from the neighboring hotels (Kretshmas) will advance their goal, sorry to disappoint you And Der Yid that even THE bnon shel Kedoshim is not a Kudosh Lhalacha Jist a Hurog

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718 : "P.S what did the shnorer who pestered me in middle of davening that I should give tzedaka for a "heimishe choson".

Can someone define to me in the context of 'Shomer Shabbos Shul in Boro Park' what Heimish means?

And after explaining it, please explain why the collector feels that saying 'heimish' in the short pitch to 100''s of mispallelim, will bring him better results.

Is a chabad choson a 'heimishe' choson?

Does it prove my point?"

If he says High-mishe chosson he means Hungarian Chassidic, maybe some other Chassidishe can be included too if they wear certain begodim. Not included - Lubavitch, Sephardi, Litvish...

If he says Hay-mishe chosson that could also include others.

Evidently some of those people think that Hungarian Chassidic and Heimish are synonyms.

Anonymous said...

וואס ,טאטע זיסער ,האט דער כאבאדסקער געטון זוכה צו זיין אז אזא ליידאק און פוסטע כלי זאל אים רעפרעזענטירען ??
פאגעט, האסט נישט עפעס בעסער צו טאן ווי איבער קייען דער זעלבע מיסט אן אפהער. גיי "לערן" א ביסעל חאסידעס
רמב"ם האסט דו נאך נישט געבעבעט היינט??

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

רמב"ם נאך נישט, אבער "חק" האב איך יא געבעבעט, און געגעסען פאלאטשינטא מיט קאקאש קעיק און שטארק געגרעפסט, ב"ה

Anonymous said...

Is the following comment true?
Can you do some research,

“according to most poskim any Jew that was killed "because" he was a Jew is called a Kudosh, that defines for example , the recent Hurog in Yemmen ,
But... a Jew that was killed for “other” reasons, for instance, the Harugay Mumbai, as proven by the recent intelligence transcripts between the Roitschim, that their goal was to damage India’s trade, and because the chabad House was an important gathering place for Israeli and Jewish merchants, and killing its inhabitants and the people from the neighboring hotels was to advance their goal of harming India, and not because they were Jews, such Harugim are not called in halacha Kedoishim”

Maybe some of your readers know the M”Kor for this? and is it a nafka mina l”Halache? for instance do the widow or orphan of a kudosh have more chashives in giving her charity as a Bnon Shel kedoshim?

Anonymous said...

Shalah Hakodesh.
Stop the stupid attacks on the Kedoshim in India.WE ARE ALL JEWS

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I guess we need to change all the Hakdoshes on all the Aron Kodeshs and Sifrei Torah in the world that have stamps and engraving that say שנעקד"ה and other similar titles.

Somebody's gonna some serious dough on this one!

Anonymous said...

Der Shaigetz
I find you "BS'D" quite bombastic, same as the yisrae-l of some other genius.
Also, since you don't know Yiddish, how would you have any idea on the contents of a Yiddish newspaper.
Keep to things you know about

Anonymous said...

RE: Is This True? It's only considered dying as a Kiddush Hashem if the person is killed because he is Jewish. But anyone who is killed by a Gentile receives a kaparah that has halachic implications: A mumar (apostate) who is killed by Gentiles is to be mourned and buried with his family (Yoreh De'ah 340:5 and Shach, 9; Yoreh De'ah 376:4 and Shach, 15; Responsa Chasam Sofer, Yoreh De'ah 333).

I can't speak to the specific circumstances in Mumbai.

Der Shygetz said...



Don't assume unless you want to make ---- you know the rest.

I read and understand Yiddish very well.

In fact, if I had nothing better to do I could probably translate that editorial straight from Yiddish into French.

And I know enough Satmarers in "Zali" Williamsburgh, including someone with a family connection to Der Yid, to know that they would not necessarily agree with or even pay much attention to an editorial of the sort reproduced here.

Anonymous said...

Hi Tzig,

I hope I am allowed to deviate from the subject here; it does not seem that too many people are really interested in this thread:)

So here goes the deviation....

I was recently at a simcha where some people at my table were discussing the "big three" (R' Y. Hutner, R' JB Soloveitchik and the Lubavitcher Rebbe) in Berlin.

Interestingly enough, it would seem that while there are dozens of stories about RYH, RJBS and RMMS in Berlin, it does not seem that anybody has any concrete proof of anything occurring between any of the them while attending university.

While some said over stories of RJBS and RMMS getting acquainted in Berlin, others quoted RJBS’s son as saying that his father and the Rebbe only passed by each other on the street in Berlin.
And while some pointed to Berlin as being the place where RYH and RMMS planted the roots of a lifelong “friendship”, others claimed that it is not entirely clear exactly what RYH was doing in Berlin at the time and nobody has much proof that he attended any classes at University at all.

All in all there seem to be many contradicting stories about what did or did not occur in Berlin.
So I have come here in search of the truth.

Did any of the three get acquainted in Berlin?

Were RYH and RMMS friends in Berlin?

Were RMMS and RJBS friends in Berlin?

Did RYH attend university?

Etc etc etc….???

I was hoping that perhaps somebody could provide some solid proof about anything that went on during those years. I’m not looking for cute stories and/or anecdotes that have been told over by random people with no proof, but rather stories with a source, or better yet documents, proving that anything ever happened with or between RYH, RJBS, and RMMS in Berlin.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

which ever son of RYBS is saying this contradicts what countless others have heard from him, including many Lubavitchers from Boston, so he better cease and desist.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but I would be interested in knowing how the conversation got going in the first place!

Anonymous said...

Sorry Tzig, I don't really recall how the conversation began...

Next paragraph copied from:

Rabbi Shalom Dov-Ber Wolpo reports in his book Shemen Sasson me-Haveirekha (Holon: Ideal Press, 4763), p. 186, that Rabbi Ephraim Wolf wrote to the Lubavitcher Rebbe that the former president of Israel, Zalmen Shazar, told him that R. Soloveitchik, whom he met in his hotel in New York City, mentioned that he had met both Rabbi Schneersohn, the future Lubavitcher Rebbe, and R. Heschel in Berlin. Professor Haym Soloveitchik, told me (telephone conversation, March 16, 2004, as well as all other references to him) that his father told him that he only saw the future Rebbe pass by. R. Soloveitchik’s oldest daughter, Dr. Atarah Twersky, recalls her father saying that the future Rebbe visited him unexpectedly in his apartment in Berlin. When he introduced himself as the son-in-law of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, R. Soloveitchik asked him why he was studying at a university when his father-in-law opposed it. My wife’s uncle, Zvi Kaplan of Jerusalem, told me that Rabbi Yitshak Hutner told him that he was with the future Rav and Rebbe together at a lecture on Maimonides at the University (apparently in 1929). After the lecture, when the professor approached Schneersohn for his opinion, he deferred to R. Soloveitchik.

But again these are all just stories with no real proof. If anything these stories just add to the confusion.

Anonymous said...

"which ever son of RYBS is saying this"
I believe that RJBS only had one son, Rabbi Dr. Chaim Soloveitchik.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I thought so but wasn't sure. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Hi Shleper,
don't deviate all the way,can you tell us what the gdoilim that the Tzeig has plasterd their pictures in the previous post "Saratoga or Berlin" were doing while The Big 3
were in Berlin

Anonymous said...

This is my conclusion. The rebbe probably had a passing friendship with rabbi JBS in Berlin. It was the 6th Rebbe who was a serious admirerer of Rabbi JBS and the published correspondence bears this out as well as his (JBS speeches at TTL dinners).Is there any correspondence between Rabbi JBS and the 7th rebbe in the years of 1950-1990 ? Any Rosh hashonna greetings ?
Of course here I will add stuff that you will not like .
See Larger Than Life volume 2 for details of the Rebbe -rav relationship , based on hard facts.
Bere Gourary told me several times that the Rayaatz very much wanted to be meshadech him with a daughter of the rav (I think this was Atarah later Twersky), and for that purpose Bere was in RIETS for several zemanim. Bere told me that his grandfather admired all experts in their respective fields, great scientists, great writers, and great talmudists.
Berlin had well over 200,000 Jews in the period of 1918-1933 and many were Eastern European and there were dozens of East European Bnai Tore living there like rabbis Weinberg, Eliezer Berkovitts, as well as Heschel the Rebbe, rabbi JBS, Rabbi Hutner and many lesser known men.Still others were in paris like rabbi Symche Elberg See the list of students at the Orthdox Seminary in Berlin and you will see other Polish students. German orthodox young men travelled to And that does not include men beyond college age and others who simpley dropped Orthodoxy like Wilensky and still others who had no shaychus to any of the 3 rabbinical schools but just attended college there.
Would you say that because the Satmarer rebbe lived in Jerusalem in 1946 and R. Goren was there too , they were naturally friends ?About rabbi Hutner , I heard from my rebbe rav Shimen Romm ZT"L rosh yeshiva at RIETS that he and the rav were both competing for the hand of the daughter of the Kovner Rav the Dvar Avrohom ZT"L. She was a beauty, a yachsente, and a very well educated woman. Hutner wrote and published his book at that time to impress his future father in law in Kovna. She ended up marrying an intellectual rather than a rav. Both young Bnai tore married women from baalabatische families without Yichus.

Anonymous said...

"Hi Shleper,
don't deviate all the way,can you tell us what the gdoilim that the Tzeig has plasterd their pictures in the previous post "Saratoga or Berlin" were doing while The Big 3
were in Berlin"

I have no idea. Can you tell me?

Schneur (or Tzig, or anybody else for that matter),
Are you aware of any hard facts proving that RYH actually attended university?
Are there any pictures? Any student list? Or anything else proving RYH was a student of the university?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you guys are just no fun at all. Why does the conversation always have to go back to RYH or Bere or RYBS in Berlin? Is it so difficult to discuss the article here?

Oh well....

The CBers claim that their Rosh Yeshiva, RYH, never actually attended university there, he was just hanging around, maybe trying to find himself.

who did the Kovner Rov's daughter marry, Schneur, and what became of her, did she survive the war?

Anonymous said...

We have no problem at all discussing other issues, but it's not entirely clear what you are trying to accomplish with this thread.Are you stam trying to rip Der Yid? It would seem that most of your readers already have quite a negatve opinion of them.Are you trying to point out that ther are silly people people out there who don't hold Chabadniks to be as yidden like the rest of Klal Yisroel? Your readers seem to know that too already.

Anonymous said...

and i just now heard from a reliable source that the rav wanted to be a son in law of reb chaim heller and his daughter said no she never got married

but the rav allways took reb chaim heller as mesader kidushin by his children

can any one comment about this

Anonymous said...

Whats the difference if Rabbi Hutner was registered or was just hanging out . Lechora its more bekavodik to be a student min haminyan and take courses with a program than just hang about the "intelelctual circle" in Berlin drinking coffee and talking to people like Dr. Nathan Birnbaum ( a fine frume Yid person , but does a Rabban shel kl bnai hagoleh sit and shmuess with intelelctual baal habatim) ?
Did anyone ever see rav Neriya's comment that rav Hutner did not really understand the mahus of rav Kuk ?

Anonymous said...

Was RYH takeh hanging out with the university chevra there?
Some say not.
I am not disputing you comment, I am simply pointing out that others point to what you hold as a truth to be a lie.
That's why I wanted to know if anybody had any real proof, not just stories.

Anonymous said...

Was your friend Bere Dislexic?

Anonymous said...

As far as I recall, both the Rav and the last Rebbe went to hear Torah regularly from Reb Chaim Heller, z"l.

All these discussions about "friendships" and their extent seem to perhaps miss the fundamental question of whether either or both had "friends" in the sense of the word that we understand, and whether they had time for such in the USA. If I recall, the Rav used to personally write Shono Tovo cards each year. I don't know if he send such to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

Interestingly, someone showed me last Shabbos, extracts of a letter from the last Rebbe to the Rav where the Rebbe is seemingly torn that he is unable to physically come and be Menachem Avel the Rav after the Petira of Rebbetzin Peshya, the Rav's mother. The Rebbe doesn't explicate the reason, but it seemed apparent from my (perhaps biased) reading that the Rebbe was genuinely upset that his position of Rebbe and the politics that might ensure if he went to be Menachem Avel one (and then not another) stymied his desire to act Al pi din lechol Hadeyos. The Rebbe then is Mefalpel about whether one can be mekayem Nichum through a letter (I guess on the assumption it is opened in the Shiva?)

There are contradictions as well. For example, I found the account by Reb Sholem Ber Kowalksy of the discussion with the Rav after a visit to the Rebbe to contradict the footnote in Larger then Life which attributes a less then enthusiastic testimony from Dr Soloveitchik, the Rav's son. One can of course ask Dr Soloveitchik, but I'm not sure how much he would say. I'll try and remember to discuss this with Rav Zvi Telsner (who is a Lubavitcher) but who se father was Masur to the Rav and was apparently behind the publication of Chamesh Drashos from the Rav.

There is also the (apocryphal?) story (I think I read it in Making of a Godol but I can't be sure) that the sister of Reb Aron Kotler taught both of them and also Rav Hutner and she made comment about the relative intellect they displayed. Apparently she was a very intelligent woman, albeit one who allegedly strayed. My memory isn't perfect on this one, perhaps someone else can recall

Anonymous said...

For a firsthand account of the life of the Chabad Lubavitcher Rebbe while in university in Berlin and his relationship with Harav Joseph Ber Soloveitchik, see this link: